Would this work to debunk the conspiracy theory label

[AnIndependentTexan]

What if we change our wording? First we start saying we are only investigating to prove their wasn't any election fraud. We want to reassure the people that their vote counted. We are only making charts to prove this area didn't have the same amount of voting fraud that this one did.

If we do a map of each state. Then label it 1-10 for each state. We are going to prove that their was no fraud by adding a point to each state. We will prove that these states didn't have big fraud by reporting a number for each report of some type of problem. All we want to do is prove that this election was up and up by investigating it.

[Silver Gaia]

1. Well, I'm no DU mover and shaker

and have few posts here to date, but I'll just say that this is the tack I've been taking all along. Everywhere I post, and with everyone I talk to about this, I stress that what I am interested in is the election process itself, and the all-American idea that EVERY vote should count and BE counted. I stress that this is not a partisan issue, and that every truly patriotic American should be concerned, and should want the TRUTH to be KNOWN. And I truly believe that. To me, this isn't really so much about who won or lost, but about the right to a fair vote and a transparent process. If we end up changing the outcome, that's great--and is something I very much hope for!--but it isn't the focus of this issue for me when communicating with others.

I've gotten good response from using this tactic with others, including people who voted for Bush. I tell them to look at it this way: If a thorough investigation turns up nothing amiss in a CREDIBLE manner, then what harm was done by investigating? Aren't we all better off than if it had never been investigated? If, on the other hand, a thorough investigation DOES turn up CREDIBLE fraud, or turns up so many CREDIBLE problems with BBV that it is apparent to even the most uninformed American that these machines are unreliable, then what harm was done by investigating? And aren't we all better off than if this had never been investigated?

I think it's important to try to win people from all political persuasions to this cause. It's been my experience that there are many folks out there on all "sides" who have been concerned about, and have been AGAINST, BBV all along. The right to a fair vote isn't an issue that affects just one "side" of the discussion. It affects us ALL. I think there are many out there who will listen to a rational, persuasive argument along these lines, and that garnering their support is important. JMHO, for what it's worth...

[Dr Fate]

2. I agree- language is everything. Call them "Coincidence Theories"

Whenever someone accuses you of "conspircacy theories"- concede to them that they may be right- and refer to them as "Coincidence theories" instead.

Example: "You are right, we should not discuss these conspiracy theories- they are all just strings of 'coincidences.'

It's a 'coincidence' that exit polls have always been right until now.

It's a 'coincidence' that all the 'glitches' & 'irregularities' just happen to favor Bush.

It's a 'coincidence' that no major media outlet will interview Bev Harris.'

It's a 'coincidence' that the same media who told us Saddam had WMDs and that Kerry faked his medals is now telling us 'there is nothing to the fraud story.'

Yup-silly me and my conspiracy theories- you are right- they are all just 'coincidences.'"

Anyway- it seems to be a great tactic to use against people who try to write off everything you say as a conspiracy.

[never_get_over_it]

3. What I tell people when they look at me

like I have a hole in my head is that verified voting is not a partisan issue, everyone should care that their vote counted no matter how they voted. Then I tell them when HAVA was passed the Dems tried desparately to get verified paper trail voting and Dennis Hassert and Tom Delay prevented that from happening and then I say if they weren't going to cheat then why in the world would they oppose a paper trail....has worked every time!

[Dr Fate]

5. Do you have a link for this info?

If this info is correct- it's a great talking point to spread around-

Can you imagine either of them having to actually EXPLAIN why they voted that way- even if they have a good escuse- it gets the word out...

Oh well- one can dream...

[never_get_over_it]

14. Hastert and DeLay

didn't vote against it they used their leadership roles in the majority party to block verified paper trail voting to ever come to a vote....

[pauldp]

9. Hassert and Delay killed democracy with sleight of hand

We can prove Hassert and Delay did that. It's common knowledge. That in itself is a smoking gun.

Think about it...

An election you can't verify = no democracy

They killed our democracy well before the election with a little legislative slieght of hand.

Hassert and Delay killed our democracy on Bush's request.

It is my conviction that this is what we should push to the media and any nay sayers because it is a verifiable fact. One that seems to be overlooked, and one that as you say, no one can really argue with.

[Carolab]

11. Yes

Exactly the same argument I use. It DOES work. They can't argue the logic or the importance of it all.

[Wordie]

4. I entirely agree that when the word "fraud" is used it tends to put people

off, and have the opposite effect of what we are looking for.

Here is part of an email I sent recently to a member of the media, to illustrate another approach:
The reason that the fraud theories are so easily dismissed, in my opinion, is because they presume a big, organized, top-down sort of organization. But what if the fraud occured in a DIS-organized way, as a result of a lot of individual decisions made at the local level by highly partisan persons who for one reason or another obtained access to the machine tallies (election campaign workers, people at ISPs, other communications systems persons)? Or even teenage hackers who were simply out for kicks?

We have heard that for the Republicans, this election was organized in a very grassroots sort of way. Individual partisans making individual decisions that affected the outcome, because of an attitude that said, "win at all costs," seems by far a more likely scenario to explain some of the "irregularities" than does a huge "conspiracy theory." Could you explore that possibility?

What provided the opportunity for the "irregularities" of course, was the poor security of the machines themselves. Again, perhaps one should not focus on the fraud aspect, as many people simply immediately tune out anything said in relation to fraud. But the POSSIBILITY of hacking, or tampering? Now that is important! Maybe it would get people's attention. After all, how many of those same naysayers have their computers bloated with security software and would never dream of handling their own financial affairs in such a sloppy manner. Can you imagine banking without recieving a monthly statement?

...and so on.

[Sodium Pentothal]

6. No, it wouldnt

You would get grouped in with the conspiracy-theorists. The MSM has painted anyone who does not have complete faith in our electoral process "out there." No matter how you bring this up, we have already been branded. There is no recourse, we can have numbers, stats, and proof out the wazoo but somebody with power has to make change happen, and no one on our side has that kind of power right now.

Dude, its unpatriotic to second guess our vote count.

:cheesy:

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

7. We should embrace the conspiracy theorist label

Nothing wrong with being a CT. Shows you can think. We should call all those who scoff at CTs, mindless sheep.

If you must have an alternative to conspiracy theory, i suggest corruption theory.

[Sodium Pentothal]

8. calling them mindless sheep is

detrimental to our cause.

Completely true, but it doesn't help us. Corruption sounds better, but we don't get to label ourselves, sadly.

[ever_green]

10. that's exactly right.

[Carolab]

12. Call it "fraud auditing".

That's what it IS. Bev said so.

[ektodemo]

13. Don't pay attention to him, he's just a ...