Is MoveOn.org in the river of denial?

[Helga Scow Stern]

I got an e-mail the other day suggesting I host a house party this Sunday, to discuss possible future directions for MoveOn and its members. I signed up, and within a few hours I had 11 people responding to the MoveOn site (most of whom I've never met). Today there are 20. But when I read the instruction guide just posted by MoveOn, I question the wisdom of such a meeting:

snip--

We are at a strategic crossroads. George Bush’s narrow victory gives us an opportunity to step back and look for new ideas, new strategies, and new leadership. And we know that the best solutions will come not from “experts” and political consultants but from all of us, thinking together. That's why it's so important that we both celebrate the incredibly hard work so many of us did, and talk together about the next steps for MoveOn and the progressive movement. MoveOn's direction for the next few years will flow from the feedback we gather through these parties. So thanks for taking the time to make this possible!

--snip

After reading this truth-missing outlook, I decided I had better communicate to the people coming that I consider election fraud to be the crucial issue, and that it's pointless at this time to discuss the political future without first addressing whether or not we even have a democracy. I copied the Summary of Voter Fraud that Eloriel and others have posted.

On the other hand, maybe it's a strategy on their part, to let the initiative come from their members, not from the top. We will see.

Does anyone know what is up with them?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

1. I did 2 -- Wrote back -- What the hell are you thinking

You just a couple days ago asked for recount donations -- now you are talking about Bush as prez? Goodbye - You DID have good ads though.

[Vincardog]

2. I know what should be up we should get this passed

The Fair election petition:
In the interests of fair elections we demand the following standards be instituted immediately for all electronic Ballot boxes and vote counting machines.

All programming instructions shall be written in open source code. That code shall at all times be available for public inspection and pass independent third party certification for accuracy and reliability. After that certification the code and all hardware shall be secured no changes shall be allowed to the code or the hardware after certification.
The vote shall only be counted after a voter verified paper record of the vote has been created and retained.

All vote records and counts shall be transferred by verifiable physical means. Any CD DVD TAPE or other transfer medium shall be labeled with the counts and a date time stamp. All records and counts shall be reviewed and verified for validity and accuracy.

No modems internet connections or telephone connections will be allowed at any stage of the vote counting process.

[Eloriel]

10. Got a link for that? If so, PLEASE post it. Thanks. n/t

[masshole1979]

3. What makes you think they're in denial?

From a page prominently linked on the front page of their website:

Investigate the Vote

Questions are swirling around whether the election was conducted honestly or not. We need to know -- was it or wasn't it?

If people were wrongly prevented from voting, or if legitimate votes were mis-counted or not counted at all, we need to know so the wrongdoers can be held accountable, and to help prevent this from happening again. That's why we believe that:
"Congress must investigate the integrity of the voting process in the 2004 election."

http://www.moveon.org/investigatethevote/

a little timid, but that's more than most major NGOs are saying.

Now ACT--that's a disappointment.

[Helga Scow Stern]

4. Thanks for pointing that out masshole1979.

I guess I just bristle when I hear words like "find new leadership" and "George Bush won". I would be more comfortable with "there is massive voter fraud but we have decided it's best to carry on as if we still have a democracy", or something like that...at least it is honest and not crazy-making.

But most of all, what I would like to hear from them is along the lines of: we need to get our act together and get the word out to the media, our elected officials, run ads, and do everything we can to save our country.

[nashville_brook]

12. this gets to the heart of the matter

if the vote was tampered with, we have been denied an accurate reflection of our identity. we must answer this issue or we will never recover, having to operate in the shadows, with Rove having control of the lightswitch. creepy.

[Helga Scow Stern]

13. Creepy indeed! Thanks nashville_brook.

It's creepy to me if they are running around in the dark on this.

[nashville_brook]

27. the political is personal

i'm taking this personally. they have stolen our identity. they are saying we are a country to theocrats. it's not true. it's so dangerous.

[Cornus]

5. Got that email too

I opted to attend rather than host a party. I deleted the original email and tried to get more info about these events at the moveon website....nothing there about these gatherings this Sunday. I wonder why?

[Helga Scow Stern]

6. It looks like they are just getting organized.

[Cornus]

7. But...

...why isn't the info provided in the email also available at their website? Can't figure that one out.

[Helga Scow Stern]

14. The website has a link for voter fraud, but they are missing a link

themselves, or something like that...

[genius]

8. Let them know, we want Bush out now.

[Eloriel]

9. I can tell you a little about what's up with them

I and HUNDREDS of other activists tried with all our might to get their attention last year on the voting machine issue. Their forum where you post issues for them to consider had well over 300 posts to the one thread....

Nada.

They finally DID get it, but only real recently, and insufficiently AFAIC.

I have since then lost all interest in supporting them personally. If they can't be at the forefront of the REAL issues going on, then -- they just don't get my support, period. I see them as terribly MODERATE (and unfortunately "mainstream" despite the MSM's depcition of them) and apparently rather frightened or at least clueless about the real work to be done. And NOTHING seems to be able to drag them into the present (or forefront) on certain issues.

HOWEVER, all that said, may I suggest that you go ahead with your party? At least you'll have an opportunity to educate those who show up, and you can go ahead and follow through on passing their comments, etc. on up the ladder. Can't do any harm. Whether you want to continue to carry water for MoveOn after that would, of course, be your decision.


Edited to add: I think the link Ojai is referring to is the 4th one here:


VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

ALSO SEE: VOTE FRAUD? What can we do? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2701028#

********SEND THIS TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW AND MEDIA TOO *********
Best Fraud Summary I've seen!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x57214
Link: http://www.bopnews.com

[Helga Scow Stern]

11. Thanks for that...

I will go ahead with the party. And thanks for adding the link for the post. I am still kind of a slowpoke in getting around on these threads.

[bunny planet]

15. But moveon.org sent me a recount the votes/investigate vote irregularities

petition the other day...... .? What gives? Did something change since then. I got the house party invite too. This is surreal.

[masshole1979]

16. Still better than ACT,

Not a word about voting irregularities or the inadequate polling places in democratic areas on the homepage, and even in NH we were dealing with people in heavily populated areas telling us they didn't vote because they couldn't find parking or because they couldn't wait in line (though they weren't that long).

http://www.actforvictory.org/

Meanwhile, freepers have taken over the blog comments forum--someone actually used the phrase "spouting nonsense about voting machines" in response to a post.

http://actforvictory.org/act.php/blog/archive/looking_forward_one_week_later/#comments

[buddysmellgood]

25. I was a MoveOn Ward Captain and helped ensure more than 150 votes for

Kerry. I too emailed MoveOn with others, hoping for some leadership and organization. We wanted them to push this petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/uselect/
What we got, day later, was their own petition and website. I just thought that was lame. It waters down the effort. I hope they can make themselves useful again, but right now, I'm just too disappointed to be involved with them.

[Helga Scow Stern]

29. Do they live on a different planet?

[OnionPatch]

34. I was one of the ones

who deperately tried to get them to do something about the blackbox voting issue early on. You're right, people were pleading and begging in post after post after post about this and they totally ignored it month after month. It was so frustrating. When they finally addressed the issue (after I gave up on them) it was too little, too late. They had a real chance to do something about this issue and they didn't. The fact that they ignored all these people pleading with them made me lose a lot of respect for them. They could have at least responded.

On the other hand, they are effective when they try to be. I won't totally give up on them. Maybe the house parties are a good way to inform other Dems about the fraud since it's not being covered on the MSM. I think I'm going to go to the nearest one for this reason, alone.

[Helga Scow Stern]

17. Kick. I hope someone from MoveOn sees this!

[RagingInMiami]

18. I volunteered for Moveon.org befoe the election

and I thought they were very efficient in getting the vote out. But they shut down their message boards after the election and they disappeared for like two weeks, which is how I ended up in DU.
DU is what's going to bring this bastard down. People here are not giving up, which I like.

[Helga Scow Stern]

19. Nope. Not giving up.

[NVMojo]

20. KICK!

[noonriser]

22. Kick!

:kick:

[Hekate]

38. "Disappeared for two weeks"? Possibly in deep depression...

...like the rest of us. They are real human beings over there, and after all their efforts this has got to be as big a kick in the gut for them as it is for us.

I don't visit their board much, but have been signed up for their emails since they started up as Censure and Move On during the impeachment. I've always liked their creativity and good intentions.

Given that MoveOn was founded by computer professionals, it does surprise me that they didn't pick up on the BBV angle a lot sooner. Maybe they just thought they were working on the right direction for them -- I have no idea.

As I continue to trim the number of action lists I'm on post-election, I know I'll stick with MoveOn.

Hekate

[ewulf]

21. I know one thing they could do

if they really want to show that they take this issue seriously. They could use some of their resources pay for a copy of the full, state by state exit poll results from Edison and Mitofsky, as discussed here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The reports cost $750 dollars per state, for a total of $38,000 for the full country (althecat claims to be able to get it down to $10,000). If they would make this request, and release the data to the public, the media, and the academic community for study, it would be a great public service. It might help us put this issue to rest, one way or another, once and for all. Then, maybe, we could get back to reforming the Democratic Party (which we should do, by the way, even if Kerry end up being President {IMO}).

Just requesting information like this would hardly put them on the same level of all us conspiracy nut-jobs...

[Helga Scow Stern]

23. That's an excellent idea....

now is the main reason we need it to give the studies more cred.?

[Helga Scow Stern]

24. MoveOn needs to stand up in Columbus, Ohio

This was posted by OhioVotes in another thread:

>And does anybody know anyone that worked on the ground in Columbus from Moveon? We have flyers that were stuck in our neighborhood's mailboxes that tell people to go to the wrong polling place, but they are saying here it was Moveon that put those around.<

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x56274

[Nightjock]

26. I will not support them anymore

My wife and I donated twice and although they did great work, the folks at MoveOn are failing us-and our country- by not significantly addressing the issue of voter fraud.

How can we even discuss future elections when we ignore what happened?
How can you hold "meetups" to discuss "what we need to do", when no matter what we do, an election can so easily be rigged?
John Kerry won this election!

With all due respect MoveOn...I am moving on until you WAKE UP!

[crispini]

28. Maybe if you attend a houseparty and give them that feedback,

that would help. But I have always felt that they were a little too one-way top-down, depite all of their claims to let the issues bubble up from their forums.

[Helga Scow Stern]

30. I will give that feedback at my houseparty, but we all should keep it up!

We could really use their resources behind this effort now to save our democracy.

Where are they!!!

[rhite5]

37. "a little too one-way top-down"

Yes. I was one of those who tried to get Move-On's attention to the e-voting issues shortly after the 2002 election when I was convinced several senate races were lost due to e-voting fraud. There seemed to be no way to reach an actual person by telephone at MoveOn and email was not being answered. So I resorted to putting the issue in the two Action Forums. I got the clear impression that they never read those forums. The forums seemed to be there just to give people a place to vent about their favorite issues.

Their petition now is way too little, too late. Besides, how far will a petition asking for Congressional action get with a Republican dominated congress?

MoveOn could be raising quick money for the Green/Libertarian recount efforts, which is badly needed. Or raising money for the fraud investigations by Nader and by Bev's group, also badly needed. Or MoveOn could be helping recruit technical people to do more analysis of precinct results in a variety of states looking for anomalies, helping identify the ones that should be investigated.

When action is needed quickly on something, MoveOn is a great resource -- but you have to get their attention.

[Helga Scow Stern]

31. Please wake up MoveOn.

[Helga Scow Stern]

32. Still waiting to hear.

[masshole1979]

33. Everyone email, fax, voicemail or send them a letter...

...it's the best you can do short of trying to move into their leadership structure and changing it from the inside. I sent an email to them and ACT. At least Moveon mentioned vote fraud on their homepage and did their little petition thing; it made me feel like something had come of my email to them, and no doubt many other people's emails to them.

We have to capture as many small victories as we can, recognize them, and then push for the bigger victories. And yes, Moveon's limited attention to this issue is a small victory--can you imagine how many people in their "leadership" must be pooh-poohing this whole thing? Seriously, how many wealthy donors or PHDs in any organization every really cared about people who lived in the kinds of neighborhoods that have been so blatantly disenfranchised?

[Helga Scow Stern]

35. Does anyone have an e-mail, fax, or other address for them?

It is nowhere to be found on their webpage, and the e-mails they send are unanswerable.

[masshole1979]

36. http://www.moveon.org/feedback/

OK, it's only a feedback form, but it's a start...

can't remember if that's what I used or if I emailed them...

http://www.moveon.org/feedback/

[Helga Scow Stern]

39. I sent them feedback on the form. I hope they read it.

This is what I wrote.

I am hosting a party on Sunday with at least 31 people signed up so far. I was a little put off by the intention letter on the organizers' page. It speaks of "now that Bush won" and "future leadership," when what we need before anything else is to secure the vote.
Any talk of future political action is pointless without first addressing this glaring question of whether or not we even still have a democracy. I am disappointed in you guys--where are you on this issue at a time when the country needs you now more than ever????
I will tell my houseparty guests these concerns, and I have heard from others who worked for you and with you of how let down they feel that you have made only half-hearted attempts to address this issue.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x58743

Please respond.