What I don't understand is why those supposedly on our side

[ailsagirl]

are choosing to dismiss the "voting irregularities" as just that. For instance: Al Franken, The Nation, Salon.com, Daily Kos (minimal interest shown), The Left Coaster (minimal interest shown), and others I can't recall at the moment.

All we're asking is for a fair count of the votes-- that includes provisional ballots, ballots from the military, and absentee ballots, none of which (according to Randi Rhodes) have been counted in Ohio (perhaps they have by now-- I don't know).

So how could anyone object to our insistence that all ballots be counted?? Isn't that pretty BASIC in an election?? That should be the focus, not turning the election around so that Kerry wins (though I think he did win). If we keep our focus on making sure all the votes are counted, how can anyone put up a fight?? And, further, how can the Bushies mind if the election was won fair and square? They'd have nothing to worry about........... right?? ;)

NOR do I understand those who I know care (or cared) just shrug and say, "what's the use?" and not even bother anymore. That's what the repugs want us to do, damnit!! Don't let that happen. Our chances of losing will be assured with that attitude (though, God knows, I understand wanting to give up).

Fight on!!

[DireStrike]

1. I think its two things.

1) People just don't wanna think about it. These people will be overcome by stark reality, as long as we don't let it drop.

2) People think now is not the time. They are playing some sort of media/opinion manipulation game. These people are dangerous, because they have a chance to derail the movement. Of course, most people who've seriously looked into it will not be swayed. That should be "all", but... cognitive dissonance... dumb clucks.

[99Pancakes]

34. Why only Olbermann?

What makes him totally comfortable with writing about what we here in the DU do? Hmmmmmm...it's all so surreal sometimes.

[rooboy]

2. I don't know if it's fair to put Salon and The Nation in that boat...

they're not individuals, and there are some in those organizations who do have concerns about the fairness of the election.

As for Al Franken, he's more concerned with "reaching out" to his (customer) base.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

3. people are totally defeated

I know, I was one of them till I found DU. I find that in the most liberal of people. Friends and older relatives who have voted green for decades can't imagine it happened (and they are the ones who pointed out BBV to me). My boyfriend said to me back in the summer "They cheated in the last election, what makes you think they won't do it again?" I totally dismissed it, but now look at where we are. I think so many are just shocked. That's just my opinion and experience.

[Must_B_Free]

4. It's like playing a game of checkers where

your opponent is both black and red and you're not even on the board - no squares, no checkers, nothing.

[TruthIsAll]

5. You make a lot of sense. But logical analysis is no longer fashionable.

Al Franken, Bill Clinton, Sen. Reid, Hillary, Rush Limbaugh, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Dan Rather, Russert, O'Reilly, Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings et al believe that Truth has become a subversive, unpatriotic, job-destroying concept.

Further, and most important, Truth doesn't pay their bills.

We're in the Looking Glass, people.

[Surikat]

6. What happened in Florida in 2000...

...by the Gore lawyers was such a dog's dinner with their selective recount nonsense that nobody I know on either side of the ideological fence wants to go there again. EVERYBODY I knew was praying for a big enough plurality that we wouldn't have to do the Supremes Tango twice in 4 years.

Bush got a popular vote edge, by fair means or foul, of about 3.5 million votes. Nobody much wants to do it over.

Frankly, I doubt that if the current recount in Ohio gives a different result anybody will pay much attention. As I see it, it's over guys. The election campaign was far and away the most vile and spiteful thing that I've seen in my lifetime and I've been watching elections since I was 5 years old in 1952.

[txindy]

10. If the Ohio recount gives a different result, Kerry will be POTUS.

We don't need to prove fraud to overturn these preliminary results. The EC hasn't met. A recount in either OH or FL could flip one of those states. That's all it would take. Media attention or no media attention. Public awareness or apathetic ignorance.

Then we'd have the next four years to investigate and prosecute the fraud.

This is FAR from over.

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

13. You need to read the constitiution

If kerry can turn around ohio, then he wins. Repugs cannot whine that he lost the pop vote after bush did also in 2000.

[99Pancakes]

33. I always thought that would be the best...

...thing to happen: Bush wins popular vote but loses electoral college---Gore gets the last laugh.

[Sodium Pentothal]

7. we can not handle the truth

125 million Americans voted. The scope, the breadth, the audacity to attempt to defraud our democracy is breath-taking.


And it happened.

Twice.



It can not come out. It won't come out. For the reality to set in, that these neo-cons have hijacked our presidency, our troops, our very nation, would be shattering. That the last four years have been a farce, and the next four even worse is a terrible thing to behold.

I mean, think of it. Our nation, the United States of America, is no longer our own. The people here no longer elect our leaders.

Its pretty fuggin scary, and no way in hell would it ever come out cleanly.

[glitch]

17. Bodes very ill for the planet if we don't face it and fight it. But fight

it smart, which I believe/d Kerry is the best qualified to do.
We'll see.

[tbuddha]

19. I'm sure Whitewater was pretty messy too dummy

[tbuddha]

20. oops..I meant Watergate

got me so riled up didn't know what I was typing

[OneBlueSky]

8. actually, we need to ask for more than a "fair count of the votes" . . .

because, in many cases, a fair count of the votes is impossible due to BBV and total control of the counting process by Republican corporations with strong ties to BushCo . . . we need a thorough investigation of ALL of the irregularities in this election, as so brilliantly summarized in this article . . .

Was It Hacked?
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/Story.asp?ID=4688

[MADem]

9. I think it is Dem "strategery" myself

Kerry wants to run again, so he doesn't want to put up with the "Sore Loserman" crap from the far right. Gore got GORED in the 00 election, even though he won. Gore is still is a lightning rod for the right--almost like Hillary. He's the guy they LOVE to hate.

Granted, there is no love lost re: Kerry from those wingnuts, but I never sensed the same level of unbridled glee when they went after him. I mean, shit, he went to the Nam, and their boy didn't. When they parroted the GOP talking points, they seemed almost covertly ashamed of themselves.

I find it interesting that Ralph Nader suddenly FOUND the money for an Ohio recount. He sure didn't have it easy trying to raise money before this! I'm wondering what those results will show. If there is evidence of widespread "machine malfunction" or other nefarious hacking, then it will put ALL of the results in question, even if the count in Ohio still comes out in favor of the boyking and heavy investigation of other places where the same machines were used is finished AFTER the inauguration. If a scenario like that plays out, the end result will be that weecowboy will be perceived as ILLEGITIMATE all over again.

I think our team will use that as a dig, sharpen the issues, and try to use the slowly growing "wrong track" momentum (increased concern about the debt, growing opposition to the war) to our advantage. They then hope they can take the midterms, and obtain the advantage going in to 08 (forcing weecowboy to veto social legislation...heh, heh!). The only Republican who could win in 08 if these things happen would be someone running, essentially, AGAINST the weecowboy record.

The problem is, their candidate will also have a record of supporting the weecowboy, so he or she will be toast well before the first debate.

[Eloriel]

14. Oh, you mean like all the other Dem strategies

that DUers have been dreaming about, fantasizing about, speculating about and thoroughly, completely WRONG about since the Selection?? That Dem strategy/secret plan?

Oh, okay.

(Clue: Wake up. It's up to us or no one. We are utterly alone, but there are millions of us.)

[loudsue]

15. MADem.....the "NEXT ELECTION" won't be different NO MATTER WHAT

You still don't grasp the connection here. "We" DIDN'T vote them in, and "we" CAN'T vote them out, when THEY OWN THE MACHINES!!!

It doesn't matter what kind of shit the republicans are in. THEY will never never never never never never never be "TOAST"!!!

If the REAL TRUTH was going to even have a remote chance of being known, THEY WERE TOAST THIS TIME!!!! But you see where we are????? When THEY COUNT the votes, and THEY OWN the media, THEN THEY MAKE THE REALITY!!!

You're still thinking in terms of "America", and "Democracy" and "Freedom of the Press". Those things are dead. They DO NOT EXIST.

Start from THAT reality, and you'll see what is going on here. Yes...it will really &^$# with your head. Your mind will reel. Reality will not be what you thought. You are now on a heavy dose of LSD. THAT is where we are. And, yes; it's a nightmare. But it's real.

:kick::kick::kick:

[MADem]

16. So, what are you saying, democracy is dead?

Abandon hope, all ye who enter here? The Nazis have won, the world is going to end?

Sorry, I'd be over the border in Canada if I felt that way.

Back in the heyday before the crash of 29, the GOP owned everything. We finally got a rich elitist Democrat with the initials FDR in the White House, who with an imperfect but well meaning bunch of Dem legislators, ushered in a period of economic growth and increased attention to social legislation that lasted all the way to Nixon (you can't call Eisenhower a 'real' republican, hell, he was courted by both and just about flipped a coin to decide what party to join).

You know, sometimes you have to hit bottom before you crawl back up. But once you know what the bottom looks like, it gives you incentive to climb higher and higher, and to remember how to avoid those depths in future. That's rebuilding. I'm not giving up, and I am not giving in. This is MY goddamn country, it does not belong exclusively to the rich, powerful corporate thugs. We can, and will, take it back for all Americans. We need to get past this time of self-flagellation, develop a plan, put it into place, and take back the House and Senate in 06.

I am an optimist. I think it can be done.

[OneBlueSky]

18. you're not getting it . . .

in the 20s, they didn't have nonauditable electronic voting controlled by the Republicans . . . we do, and as long as the voting machines and the voting process are a) unauditable, and b) controlled by Republicans, the Democrats will never win another national election . . . and you can take that to the bank . . .

[MADem]

26. It's "just" technology

Back in the 20's, dead people voted. The Dems figured it out and got better than the GOP at raising the dead. The GOP learned ballot box stuffing from the Dems. It's an ongoing thing.

I'm not saying that tracking down and exposing fraud is going to be easy at all, but I think it can be done. SOMEONE has to know it was done, someone has to know how it was done, and it had to take more than one person to do it. Someone will talk, either while drunk, in bed, while boasting, or out of remorse. And if someone flips, or if some tracking capability becomes apparent, and the fraud is exposed, people will sing to escape prosecution.

[never_get_over_it]

23. THANK YOU

exactly!!!!

[hippiegranny]

25. BINGO, loudsue

yo have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head. The America most people still believe in simply DOES NOT EXIST anymore. It's the end of the world as we know it...

[bunny planet]

21. ummm......

Ralphie is doing a NH recount, he wasn't on the ballot in Ohio, so he can't ask for a recount there.

[snot]

11. Work like h--- against those who will fight like h---

I agree with both Na Pentothal and Ma Dem.

But I think we shd have one overriding focus: if we don't prove what we think really happened and get it FIXED before the next election, not much else will matter.

To get it fixed, ideally, we should not only get rid of or thoroughly transform a lot of machines, but we should obtain a lot of convictions, and not just of petty officers.

I don't think we're going to get all that before inauguration. If we work like hell, might make significant progress w/in two years (next election). Must bear in mind, they are going to fight like hell, every step, every way.

[oceania]

12. I've been wondering the same thing myself

I've given up reading Salon- I am really disappointed with their approach to this. They have some interesting articles, but none of what they are discussing matters *at all* when the USA voting system is so corrupted that you will never have a fair election again unless there is massive reform.

I've been wondering who owns Salon- I thought it was reliably left wing but maybe it has some right wing backers now.

[glitch]

22. Commondreams.org and Democracynow.org are my main sources

Commondreams.org has been printing Thom Hartman consistently.
We've still got Motherjones.com, they are posting from the archive right now since they've always been on vote fraud since day one. I imagine they are working on the full update.
Greg Palast still rocking along. I'll bet he's doing an in-depth for BBC right now.
IMO The Nation has not been a heavy-hitter for awhile, for they seek face time on the telly. The "respectable" left.
And Salon now has to rely on some major corporate advertising for it's survival. I think I saw a GE ad the other day.
Alternet.org has swallowed whole faith-based vote counts as well, sadly.
But buck up buckaroo, it ain't over till the fat lady decomposes, and she hasn't even sung yet.

:hi:

[symbolman]

24. Take Back the Media is doing something about it

We made a DVD and it's for sale on Buzzflash right now -- Here's the scoop:

Buzzflash Premium - "Electile Dysfunction" a Take Back the Media FILM!
BuzzFlash's Recommendation

"We've posted links from and collaborated with Take Back The Media before. The work they do is always visually engaging, passionate, informed, pro-democracy, and antihypocrisy, which makes it a perfect fit with BuzzFlash and our readers.

When TBTM told us of their new film on election fraud and the 2004 elections, we wanted to help get the word out because -- not having seen much more than the trailer -- knew it was something our readers would enjoy.

We'll let Take Back the Media take over:"

For instance, do you know if you have a Constitutional right to have your vote counted, or for you to vote at all?

The 2004 election is no different than its predecessors except the potential for fraud was higher than ever seen before. Our cameras focused on irregularities in Florida and other states between reported results and exit poll results. Harassment and voter intimidation was a frequent sight at polling places -- and we've got it all on film.

Our award winning team is a mix of the musical masters and film magic-makers of Peopletopeople.tv, and one of the inventors of the political Flash attack ad - not only did Micheal Stinson of Takebackthemedia.com win a Hollywood award for his animation work (which is included in the film, bringing Monty-Pythonish humor to the subject) but the combined team created one of the 14 ads chosen from 1600 entries in the MoveOn.org "Bush in 30 seconds" contest.

Plus, Micheal has been seen fighting for our rights on cable news, including MSNBC, CNN, and FOX's The O'Reilly Factor show.
In short, we deliver - and we have a lot of fun doing it along the way. We get the whole story.

***

Take Back the Media.com has been travelling for the last year (while spending over $50 thousand dollars) working on this film - just back from Florida and busy adding the animation touches to our film..

Please hop on over to Buzzflash, read all about our film and help us all get the word out as we all work to save our democracy - have an "Electile Dysfunction" house party!

http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/04/11/pre04073.html

[Straight Shooter]

27. I want to put reasonable doubt into people's minds about bush's agenda

Make people think about that fool and what he's planning for this country. Jeebers! If he gets tainted with fraud in the election, even if it doesn't change the outcome, it just might change people's attitudes. Maybe they'll be a little bit more wary of what warmongering drivel comes out of his snorting mouth.

Maybe, just maybe, by pushing for exposing what has happened in this election, we might stop another unnecessary war.

So, is it worth it, or isn't it?

[O.M.B.inOhio]

32. Maybe, but if one is open to doubt, wouldn't 4 yrs of lies...

... have sewn the seeds of doubt already? I think anyone who believes in Bush now is closed to hard fact or humble doubt or disciplined logic or Christian kindness or anything but that frantic defensiveness to anything that opposes the little fascist and anything that doesn't stroke their own fragile ego.

[smartvoter]

28. The "leap" element is a big part of it.

It seems, at least to me, that the leap from mathematical impossibility and statistical improbability to intentional fraud requires an investigative step that has not happened at this point, and when the media digs around and sees the loudest voices claiming these realities are proof of fraud, the story gets dismissed.

I have been very careful when I press this issue in letters to the media and representatives to point out that there are impossible results that need to be resolved, but as far as I know it could be honest error or, if it turns out that fraud is the cause, it could be fraud on either party at play. My sense is that few professional journalists will stick their necks out if they see what they would deem to be conspiracy theories everywhere.

It's not productive to claim fraud and a stolen election at this point. Identify the problems that need to be reconciled and, as they're investigated, the rest will take care of itself.

[masshole1979]

29. but it is unlikely to be anything else but fraud...

...why else were all the exit poll discrepancies in Bush's favor, and all the "glitches" in Bush's favor? WTF are the odds of that?

Ultimately, if "fraud" isn't sexy enough to get on TV, than "irregularities" and "count all votes" certainly won't. Dirty tricks don't get much play either. In NH, there were f'd-up GOTV leaflets distributed that had wrong polling place info, and there Dem's getting calls that they didn't have to go out and vote since Kerry had already won (in the morning!). Yet that didn't get in the news outside NH--not even in Boston (that I noticed).

Meanwhile, if people examining the facts don't go into it looking for possible fraud, they may very well accept the explanations offered by the rep. vote counters.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

30. Last change for fair election- NOW

THIS IS IT! If the Repugs get away with this theft, the ballot box will not be a place where they can be challenged for many many years. If we let it slide and look forward to 2006 or '08, we're goners. So progressives go ahead and risk your political career or your AAR show or your reporting career or your film career and speak up! Ask for an answer why it's OK to have glitches and ask why they were all in Bush's favor. Shout, unless you believe this was an act of divine intervention.

[ok_cpu]

31. It's the effect of the media, et al.

The way the RW has changed the discourse in this country. It's very dangerous politically to step out on a limb. And they want to keep their job as much as you and I do, I'm sure.
The media would roast them unless they had something that absolutely could not be spun.
All it takes to be branded a librul weenie now is to express an iota of concern for the poor, weak, etc.
Wanna be a femin-azi? Just stand up for any right of a woman.
Don't want to drill the Alaskan reserve? Want to be part of Kyoto (sp?)? You've got to be a tree hugger.
And woe unto you if you fail to see the damage to society of loving people of the same sex living together....
Blame Rush, Hannity, and their ilk. Political discussions are had on their terms and very few are brave enough to stand up.