What is the WORST that can happen if we fight?

[truehawk]

That the thugs will mob the election board and prevent the count when our Canidate is ahead?

They already did that!!

That the Rethugs will be acromonious and retaliate?

They already are, and they stole enough House and Senate seats so they are unrestrained!!

They will not take NO for an Answer, and if WE will,WE will be taking NO for an answer forever.

[whalerider55]

1. can i get....

an amen?

if they get away with this election, all the rest from now until global warning won't matter. because we will have reinforced their felonious and immoral behaviour.

whalerider55

[truehawk]

11. Amen

[Warpy]

2. They'll have somebody to blame (us) when this stuff

starts blowing up in their stupid, piggy faces. It will, you know. Like Clinton said, "Their way doesnt work!

What Bev Harris and others are doing in assembling the information on the massive vote fraud is absolutely vital. If we have a history, this is what will be used in writing it. When this gang begins to be discredited by their own stupidity and bungling, this information will help to remove them.

[truehawk]

4. Uh I would really rather remove them to AVOID any more *hit

Hitting the fan.


I am not quite sure how they can blame Iraq on us, or the falling dollar, or the loss of jobs, on us fighting.

Yes Their way tends to result in either

1. a dictatorship or
2. a Depression

I think it is better to try to dig in and bring the country back form the brink.

Hard to replace the things we will loose if we let them stay in power.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Kerry forever tainted (Gored) and his political career will be over

I'm not crying a river over that one, though.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[Nordic]

8. that's already happened

John Kerry's career is over NOW unless this is dealt with.

Nothing matters BUT this.

[Cronus Protagonist]

9. I agree with you, but what if he decides to be a Republican?

Gore can't even do that.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[truehawk]

5. It is not about Kerry, he would make a better president than Bush

I would put him where he belongs
Even if we had to drag him into the office kicking and screaming.

And if he will not take the job, then Edwards will do just fine.

[ewulf]

6. Well, they could have us all imprisoned

tortured, murdered, shamed, ruined, etc for undermining our countries elections and thereby helping the terrorists. They could call us enemy combatant and throw us in solitary confinement somewhere without access to council.


But if they started up that kinda stuff, at least it would bring things out in the open, and it would, in the end, help our cause.

Over the long term, well past any individual person's sense of comfort, professional reputation, and political aspirations, fighting can only help us. The more we fight this, the more we bring out in the open; the more we pressure the Republicans to answer the tough questions and the media to ask them, the better our country will be in a hundred years, no matter what happens in the interim.

If we loose this recount fight, we must be the greatest, most loyal opposition: loyal to our country and, consequentially, forever against compromise with them. We must stake out the ideal positions, for they our ours to take; we must champion the rights of all Americans, and frame all our goals in terms of the highest ideals and principles.

If we win the recount, we must do everything we can to expose the rotten system the Republicans set up, and expunge it from this country. We must not let Pres. Kerry forget the crimes these people have committed, to feather over the issues in the name of bipartisanship and cooperation, for if he does, we will be back in the same position in four years. John Kerry is a great investigator, he would be the best man to have wielding the powers of the executive to clean up this mess, so its worth keeping up hope and working damn hard, till 12/13, and beyond.

[mbee]

7. We need our own counter group to the Brooks Brothers rioters!

[nashville_brook]

29. amen -- but where were they? n/t

[bullimiami]

10. I for one think you can never be wrong for fighting for what is right.

The worst we can do is lay down and let them steamroll us.

Losing is nowhere near as bad as not fighting.

[colonel odis]

12. they'll know 49+% of the people in this country despise bush

and they'll be reminded of it every time they see a bumper sticker, see a yard sign, or hear us call hate radio to say bush stole it.

it's easy for them to sneer at the occasional kerry supporter who believes/knows they stole it. but there's strength in numbers. imagine if half the cars you passed in traffic had "bush stole the election" stickers on them. the righties would be very intimidated.

[Carolab]

13. Yes I think we need stickers

Bush won? Prove it!

[colonel odis]

14. ooooooooh. i like that a lot.

[Silverhair]

15. The burden of proof is on you, not them.

If you ask them to prove Bush won, they will simply point to the election results.

When you cry, "Fraud!", they will tell you to prove it. The allegations and conspiracy theories that have been posted here do not constitute proof. Further, the burden of proof is always on the person who is making the charge. It is usually impossible to prove a negative. (Prove there are no elephants hiding in the trees. You can't see them? They hide really well, don't they? There is no definative proof of fraud? They covered it up really well didn't they?)

They don't have to prove anything. YOU HAVE TO PROVE FRAUD. And you won't be able to.

[truehawk]

18. Evaporating Proof in the land of Sheeple

The Exit Polls ARE legal proof, that is why the consortium is not releasing them. The same kind of evidence against a company would put them under a jail. Or invalidate the legitamacy of a Countries Election.

In every country in the world EXCEPT the last 3 US Federal Elections, Exit Polls are the Gold Standard of Election Confirmation.

For exit polls to continue to be wrong defies everything we know about stastical sampling for a characteristic. Pollsters were scratching their heads after making incorrect predictions in the Year 2000 and 2002 and wanted to make sure that they got it right this time. The same methodology was used as is used in other races where the exit polls have been shown to be accurate to within 1%.

Bush voters did not talk to pollsters? Bush voters are ANYTHING but shy.

But we are going to choke down an billion to one explaination why the sampling does not reflect the result in the last 3 elections. We can't bring ourselves to come to terms with the fact that the last 3 elections have been a LOT more fraudlent than usual. So what would be proof is suddenly not Proof anymore.

And then there are the poll books with (hundreds of ) fewer signatures than poll votes.
(and we are giving them time to fix the books)

In Your opinion What would constitute proof? A video tape of Rove and Bush where they explain how they did it with charts and diagrams?

[Silverhair]

25. Exit polls are NOT legal proof.

The counter argument is that the exit pollsters had flawed methodology. The actual vote trumps the exit polls. If it didn't, then why would we need to actually count votes?

Exit polls depend on sampling a correct representative mix of the voting population. You can easily err by picking the wrong times to poll, the wrong precincts to poll, not being careful to get a correct mix of white/black/Hispanic/other, men/women, older/middle/younger, etc.

[truehawk]

20. WhooooOOOOO They are going to call us a sore loosers

Now they are calling us LOGS because we ROLLOVER so easily.

Have you SEEN a RETHUGLICAN canidate not call for a recount???

Type in rectount and see how many citations come up!!

If the situation were reversed the voter intimidation, and flyers directing people to vote on the wrong day would be all the proof needed.

The THUGS would be marching through the streets!!! And they would NOT be disuaded by anything that we might SAY about them.

[Silverhair]

26. Looking silly costs Democrats respect and votes. NT

[nashville_brook]

31. i disagree, big time

they need to prove nothing happened when they locked down Warren Co

they need to prove the trashed poll tapes in Volusia didn't amount to a crime

they need to prove that the exit polls were spoiled

they need to prove the claims made against them are false.

ball's in their court. that's the way it goes.

[Silverhair]

36. No. As much as you want to believe that, it just doesn't work that way.

You are demanding the proof of a negative. It is like demanding proof of innocence. The burden of proof is always upon the one making the accusation. So you have to PROVE fraud. A claim of fraud is not proof. You have to PROVE a crime. It is NOT up to them to prove there was no crime.

Imagine if you were charged with robbery, and the police said that you had to prove you did not commit a robbery.

[nashville_brook]

37. they have to prove

what they were doing with the poll tapes in volusia

they have to prove what they were doing when they locked down warren co

they have to prove they have counted ALL THE VOTES

[nashville_brook]

38. are you saying, better luck next time?

[nashville_brook]

39. i am demanding proof of democracy

The great American dream that reached out to the stars has been lost to the stripes. We have forgotten where we came from, we don't know where we are, and we fear where we may be going. Afraid, we turn from the glorious adventure of the pursuit of happiness to a pursuit of an illusionary security in an ordered, stratified, striped society. Our way of life is symbolized to the world by the stripes of military force. At home we have made a mockery of being our brother's keeper by being his jail keeper. When Americans can no longer see the stars, the times are tragic. We must believe that it is the darkness before the dawn of a beautiful new world; we will see it when we believe it.

-- Saul Alinsky, 1971 -- Rules for Radicals

these are outsider politics, my friend. get on board.

where was the burden of proof during whitewater? where was it during monica-gate? gingrich learned his game from (now) silverhaired 60s radicals -- this is outsider politics. it's all we've got and if you want to have a discussion about pragmatism and the ends justifying the means, i will be glad to oblige. too much rides on this to worry about freeakin burdens of proof. OBL is determined to use nuclear weapons on the US should he get his hands on them. we have an ego-manical freudian boy with pscho-religious tendancies in the White House. when exactly would it be a good time to be pragmatic?

[glitch]

28. I just want "Prove It" stickers. Where's nostjami?nt

[nashville_brook]

30. "We are being lied to" n/t

[Her Blondness]

16. We can't afford not to FIGHT

We need a recount fight to the DEATH in Ohio, even if it's hopeless, just to deflate Dubya's arrogant talk of a "mandate." Mandate my ass. We need to show the entire world that Dubya is not there by the will of the people.

[nashville_brook]

32. this is our opportunity to gain power

from Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky

"Alexander Hamilton, in The Federalist Papers, put it this way: 'What is power, but the ability or faculty of doing a thing? What is the ability to do a thing, but the power of employing the MEANS necessary to its execution?' Pascal, who was definitely not a cynic, obeserved that; 'Justice without power is impotent; power without justice is tyranny.' St. Ignatius, the founder of the Jesuit order, did not shrink fromt he recognition of powerr when he issued his dictum: 'To do a thing well a man needs power and competence.' We could call the roll of all who have played their parts in history and find the word POWER, not a substitue word, used in their speech and writings."

IT'S THE POWER, STUPID.

the only power we have is the vote. if we let this pass we comply with tyranny. we will be its accomplice.

now is the time, ya'll!

[nashville_brook]

33. amen, sista! n/t

[Silverhair]

17. The worst? The RWs laugh at the desperation.

Make the Democrats look silly. Remember Soreloserman? That was the tag that was hung around Gore's neck, and it stuck. A failed attempt would be like continuing to hit one's head against a wall.

And I can't see the fight as anything but a losing fight.

[truehawk]

19. If we don't fight we will be wearing SHEEP tags

You let our enemies define you.

[truehawk]

21. We can pretty much be sure that they will deride whatever we do

[truehawk]

22. It is Pathetic to think that Apathy and Aquesience are going to save you

When they come for your Son.
When they come for your JOB.
When they come for your Social Security.
When they cut taxes on the rich so they will have more money to invest in China and India. (did you know that venture capitolists are DEMANDING that 70% of the work of software startups be done in INDIA??

Yes we will CERTAINLY BE MOCKED.

SO WHAT!!!

[Son of the Gun]

23. And how exactly are you planning on fighting.

Is someone planning to lead an armed rebellion?

[truehawk]

27. I would not want to dismiss your 2ed Amendment rights, but

I think very large peaceful demonstrations are more effective. So that it will be more difficult to make us the problem.
Gaundi had the right idea, sitins, stand ins, especially since we can beam the demontrations to the rest of the world to make sure they see.

Keep your bullet proof vests handy.

[nashville_brook]

34. change comes from power and power comes from organization

we have a MASS POWER BASE. we have the majority behind us.

power is the reason for being in organizations. when people agree on certain religious ideas and want the power to propagate their faith, they form churches.

power and organization are the same thing.

we have the power. we CAN change things. look at Gandhi. look and martin luther king.

can i get a "duh."

[On the Road]

24. Absolutely. I Can't Understand the Repeated Accomodation

of the Democratic leadership over the last four years.

To some extent, I do understand Kerry backing off on the recount if he's really convinced he lost. It's much better for the recounts to be led by Nader, Cobb, and Badnarik, and the investigations to be led by Bev Harris, Ida Briggs, and the Berkeley people. They have the right mindset, and have nothing to lose.

[hippiegranny]

35. the WORST has already happened

there is nothing left but to fight.