Just a question. If Kerry doesn't fight. If he did cave after eight hours?

[saracat]

What would you think? Would this make the repugs right? Would you consider him a "flip flopper"? How would you really feel? Would you think he was a coward? And what about the country? Would you stay? What if they really want Bush?

[New Earth]

1. i don't know

i'm not ruling anything out, i'm not ruling anything in.

the votes are still being counted.

[mirandapriestly]

3. If it becomes apparent that widespread fraud is difficult or

impossible to prove I won't blame him. I don't see why he and the DNC can't just get on the "let's make sure people trust the system" bandwagon, though, although the accusations would fly from the evil party and they can destroy a person because the media teams up with them.

[bullimiami]

2. me too. ask me when its over.

i dont want to imagine, just hope, while there is still hope.

[saracat]

5. That is why I am asking. I don't know what to think myself. I want to hope

but it is getting harder. Dec. 13 is less than a month away though. We need action soon. When talking about the race this morning Edwards wasn't that encouraging either. I realize his priority is Elizabeth and it should be. Only I was kind of hoping ,when they said he would speak about the election.....and that bitch Couric, "how did it feel to lose? Your loss, your loss...etc" Gag. Someone should sock her.

[GRLMGC]

9. Ahh yes

I'd gladly sock her.

[Crunchy Frog]

4. I never had a very high opinion of Kerry.

I got behind him because he was the Democratic nominee and it was so critical to this nation's future that we get rid of Bush.

Don't get me wrong, I admire the person that he was 30-40 years ago. I admire him for having gone to Vietnam and for working so hard to end the Vietnam war afterwards.

I just don't think that he's the same person anymore that we saw in the movie Going Upriver.

In the recent campaign season, he always struck me as someone who was weak and afraid in the face of the RW juggernaut, and tried to cover it up with cheap machismo type stunts, like riding a Harley into the tonight show, or doing that goose hunt photo-op.

He also struck me as someone who caved easily, and who tended to act from percieved political expediency rather than from principle. I believe that was the true motive behind his IWR vote.

I realize that this view is harsh and is not popular, but it's what I believe, and I think that his caving so quickly is consistent with this view.

I would like nothing better than to be proved wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

[pacalo]

6. Be patient & wait for the votes to be counted.

Kerry's waiting for the votes to be counted, believe me. Kerry may not be running through the streets, waving his arms screaming voter fraud, but he's (through his people) keeping an eye on this. My belief is that the Democratic leadership is playing this very low key until evidence is found. They're very aware of the scuttlebutt on the internet, imo, & that's probably all the more reason to play their cards close to their chest.

[Northwestmom4Kerry]

7. It's way too soon to make judgments.

You just have to let this thing play out. You know the saying, "You can't see the forest through the trees?" Well, right now, we're still in the middle of the trees, so it's impossible to see the forest.

It doesn't seem like it's too soon, because the networks were all chomping at the bit to call a winner, and Bush was busting at his little seams to run out and give his victory speech, and he had no intentions of waiting for Kerry. They would have made a mockery of him if he had waiting one more hour to give his speech, because Bush was going to come parading out anyway, and then Kerry would have looked ridiculous coming out after him, and if he had waiting until the votes were counted, guess what? He'd still be waiting wouldn't he, because there are still votes being counted.

[saracat]

10. I am waiting and I agree to a point. I just don't get why

everyone seems so concerned how the RW or the media would play Kerry if he was more active or obvious. They would attack whatever he did so it doesn't make a difference. This fear of "sore loserman" is bogus because there is no way of preventing them from saying it even if he wins. I am just shaking my head at this. MSM will never crown Kerry even if he wins!

[badc0der]

8. I'm disapointed with dem leadership of late

Really all of the chasing after election fraud is not about putting Kerry in the white house though. It's about slowing (and hopefully reversing) the momentum on unauditable voting procedures. It's about making or concealing fraud a legally dangerous thing to do. It is in short about saving our dying democracy before it is too late.

I honestly have never been a big Kerry supporter and if Bush wasn't going to have the power to solidify the radical right's hold on the Supreme Court in the next four years I wouldn't even care about the slim chance that he (Bush) might be defeated as a result of all this. But since Bush probably will get the opportunity to do so much damage to the court we need Kerry in office regardless of any flaw he might have in his character.

[Fovea]

11. Several questions.

1. I would think the Democratic party had reached a possibly fatal failure of leadership.

2. No, not a flip flopper. Rather, someone without the faith of their convictions or willingness to fight for those he pledged to fight for, in short, I would not want him running for President again.

3. There is a differnce between cowardice and loss of fire. We needed a Mike Tyson, and we got an eminence gris. Kerry probably won, but we may never know at this point. This is tragic for millions of America, that our hopes are pinned on someone who, in the end, seems to still believe that some spirit of polity exists on the Right.

4. The country? Which one? Jesusland, or the U.S. of Canada?

5. Probably not.

6. They really do want Bush, at least retro America. It doesn't mena that there are no progressives in Redville, but I see the 1850's all over again, look for a great deal of mobility of a panicked sort.

I suspect both parties are going to implode. The moderates will perish in the GOP before the come to the Democratic party, and the Dems will fall apart as the moderates try to be the party of the moderate Republicans, in vain.

Progressives might move enmasse to the Green Party, to an extent, co-opting it. I feel Greens would be a far more effective forum for progressives, if the DNC chair goes to a DINO at this point.
If we are never allowed to affect national policy in a meaningful way
in the Democratic Party, perhaps we can start taking back the states by offering the people a fair deal in the depth of the new gilded age of monopoly.

[badc0der]

13. You hit the nail on the head

There was a moment in the third debate when Bush said something like “you’ve got to have fiscal sanity.” I remember laughing out loud at that comment and think that this was the moment when Kerry was going to blow Bush out of the race. Bush left him self wide open for Kerry to really lay into him on his economic policy and make the moderate Republicans see that their party’s core value of fiscal conservatism had been hijacked by religious extremists. Instead he made some lame joke and IMO gave Bush a pass on what was his weakest spot with Republicans.

Kerry’s response was, more than anything, what made me lose faith in him (though he still got my vote). Because I knew he didn’t have the backbone to stand up to a congress that was almost certainly be republican controlled. We need someone with strong convictions and the chutzpah to back it up in 2008, and that person is not John Kerry.

[truehawk]

12. the rank and file Republicans will be much better off with Kerry

These people will have more of what they want under Kerry than Bush, More freedom from opression by their own government, more job security, more physical security, better air, better water, better healthcare and better access to higher education.

When I talk to Republicans they just have no idea how tax policy and SEC rules have created the situation that strips their jobs and their idenity and their dignity from them. From the guy with a rusted pick-up truck to the one in the polo shirt on the golf course, the rank and file just have an idea that the Repuclicans will tax them less and leave their guns alone. Well, Kerry WILL tax most of them less and he WILL leave their guns alone.

[OneBlueSky]

14. if that indeed turns out to be the case, he will lose my respect . . .

and support forever . . . what happened in this election goes way beyond the political self-interest of John Kerry and directly to the foundation of our democracy . . . if he won't stand up and speak out about the system that was set up by Republicans so that it could be manipulated with no chance of anyone "proving" it, then he's betraying all of us and the country as a whole . . . he promised that he "had our backs," and if he breaks that promise, he's toast in my book . . .

[chookie]

15. Maybe Bush should appoint Karl Rove Sect'y of Defence

If Bush would have bothered to send ANYONE in a focused manner against Al Qaeda -- rather than doing the wacky new trifecta in Iraq of "Steal their Oil. Eliminate Israel's Enemies. Bring on Armageddon!" -- the threat of Al Qaeda would be eliminated by now.

Trouble is, while Bush is superb at political assassination and playing well in Peoria, at least among the wackos in Peoria, he stinks at everything else.

If he would attack Osama bin Laden with the sane intense unrelentless ruthlessness and focus as he did John Kerry, who is, um, an American, a long-standing Senator, etc -- this ballgame would have been long over.

As for "Do they really want Bush?" I am not convinced. If he had been HONEST about his agenda, and spoken about what he really has in mind, and not just suggested stuff in code words, I would agree that 51% of American voters (not the same thing as Americans as a whole) back him. Some of us have seen through this guy from the start. Many more have caught on. Many many many more oppose the bastard, but got their brains hijacked by single issues like abortion and gay rights, and voted for him because of the "he's a Christian, in spite of all he does!" meme. I think all but the wackos are going to feel betrayed in a little while....

Kerry fought as an intelligent, articulate statesman -- ooops, too bad that is not the approach that is predictably successful against fascism on the march! Now we seem to be hearing from Dem leadership that "I believe we have peace in our time." BULLSHIT BULLSHIT!! Am I disappointed? By golly yes. Does this miscalculation lessen my support of him? Yes. Cracky -- the stakes COULDN'T have been higher -- and once again, the Democrats didn't quite face up to the grotesque power of their foe.

But here's the irony: John Kerry would have been extremely effective against Al Qaeda. Bush is totally fucking clueless about global terrorism. He sees it as a big opportunity for entrepreneurs! He thinks Al Qaeda can be fought with the tactics of the Cold War (thanks, Condi!). It would have been unpleasant to clean up Bush's imperial fuckup in Iraq, and for that, he should feel lucky he lost.

Um, we have long needed brutal fighters on our side. Um, like guys who want to see democracy in America survive? But I guess our leadership either doesn't care as much as we do, or have their heads up their asses so far or are so incestuous in their gentleman clubs that they are totally fucking clueless as to what is going on.

Bush steals ANOTHER election, leads us FURTHER into disaster, and our leaders call for unity and reconciliation. I really would have preferred a "Boris Yeltsin taking a stand with the people in front of tanks against the military coup attempt" moment, than mewing about unity. I will NEVER shake hands with a war criminal. Doesn't ANYONE in the Democrats get it? They sure don't act like it. The Republicans "get it" -- they are seizing power brazenly right and left. Bye bye democracy, hello one-party fascist state. The Dems think they DESERVE power just because they are "right." The extremist republicans just seize it, and can;t believe how easy we make it for them and don;t give a fuck how they "look"....

When good people DO NOTHING -- well, deja fucking vu.... Well, in our case, good people did SOMETHING, but not enough. We need to be fighting these people like the Nazis they are! but still, mew mew mew mew. I am NOT advocating extremism. I am NOT an extremist. I just want sanity and the Constitution back! THEY are the extremists.

Here we go again -- the Banality of Evil. Friendly Fascism. It does NOT bode well. Bush at least was kinda sorta honest when he talked about a "generational challenge" -- too bad people didn't understand this was code for "world war".

My prediction : look for 15 years, at least, of instability and misery, here, and abroad. And that is the best case scenario. Wait til China decides to go WalMart on us. And anyone still wondering why Pootie Poot is spending money on new advanced nuclear weapons? Does anyone SERIOUSLY think he is planning to use them in Chechnya and that he is not planning for the medium long term? He's playing chess too. And Bush? He just knows high stakes poker, bluffing with an empty hand, and putting up other people's money.

Kerry? He would have been an effective president. Too bad he didn't go to war with the extremists who hijacked our country, and called things by their right names. Given how he understood Nam so profoundly, I thought he might be the Man for the Time, seeing we're now in another stupid unwinnable war. He should have been more honest about what I HOPE he knows we are up against. IF he doesn't get it, then fuck him.

My remaining hopes are with "sane Republicans." But now even they are getting the Swift Boat Vet treatment. I THOUGHT sane Republicans would fight the extremists who hijacked their party and core values, but they are knuckling under to the fascists as well.

Bad times are just beginning, friends. Resist in every way you can.