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RubyCat Donating Member (334 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 03:39 AM
Original message
Parallels with Venezuelan vote
Exit polls were controversial too in the Hugo Chavez recall referendum in Venezuela:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_040820.htm

Some excerpts from the article:

...final exit poll results from Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates, an independent New York-based polling firm, show a major victory for the 'Yes' movement, defeating Chavez in the Venezuela presidential recall referendum." The poll showed 59 percent in favor of recalling Chavez, 41 percent against.

The next morning, Chavez was declared the winner by an almost exact opposite margin. "About 58 percent said 'no' to a recall, while 42 percent said 'yes,'" wrote the Washington Post.

...

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez has been running an authoritarian regime. By various means he has taken control of the legislature, the courts, the armed services and the police. His thugs have been intimidating and even killing the regime's opponents. The literature on this is voluminous, but consider these reports from the Wall Street Journal: www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005494 and www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110005478. Chavez is an ally of Cuba's Fidel Castro and an enemy of the United States, and he has shown no commitment to democratic principles. He sought to block the referendum by extralegal means and, having failed at that, resorted to intimidation to win it. There is no reason to believe that he would stop at election fraud.

One weapon against such fraud is the exit poll. As Doug Schoen of Penn Schoen points out, his firm has conducted exit polls in Mexico and, just a few days ago, in the Dominican Republic, which produced results very close to the election results. His partner Mark Penn points out that the firm conducted two previous exit polls in Venezuela, both of which were on the mark. Warren Mitofsky's firm, Mitofsky International, has produced exit polls with similar results in Mexico and Russia. Mitofsky recalls that in 1994, Mexican President Carlos Salinas, seeking credibility with foreign investors for that year's Mexican elections, asked him for advice on what to do. Allow independent exit polls, Mitofsky advised, sponsored by the media, and allow the results to be announced soon after the voting. Mitofsky's exit poll results, announced soon after the polls closed, did in fact come close to the official results, as did another Mitofsky poll in 2000. More important, they provided independent confirmation of the fairness of the count.

...

In contrast, it would be far easier, given the touch-screen voting method and central tabulation used in Venezuela, for the central counting center to falsify the results. All you would have to do is program the computer to count every sixth "yes" vote as a "no." That would transform a 59-41 vote to 42-58. And the results would still show pro-Chavez areas voting for him and anti-Chavez areas going the other way—just by different margins.


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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Venezuelan election had a paper trail.
And I'd be friends with Fidel Castro too if I knew the US was trying to have me killed.

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fliesincircles Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. In April of 2002
after Hugo's "exit", the folks in Caracas took their "polls" to the street.
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Roger_Otip Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. i think chavez won
but this is interesting in that it shows how the media will latch onto exit polls when it suits them.
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sportndandy Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. Dont believe US News and WR
Chavez is a very popular president in Venezuela who is widely disparaged in the US media because he is openly on the left. Chavez survived a US backed coup, and I believe that his victory this summer was genuine. The "referendum" was about as valid as Clinton's impeachment, so I think justice prevailed. Moreover, it was another defeat for covert US intervention and I wouldn't be surprised to see USN&WR grinding their axe at Chavez expense.

BTW this is my first message at DU!
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Hi sportndandy!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. He's not just disparaged in the media
our government has been trying to overthrow him for quite some time now -- and it's not just because he's on the left. He's not in their pocket so the oil money goes where it's supposed to go: to the plutocrats.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
5. They had a revote with open source software and 3 paper trails
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shib Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Heh
Chavez has a lot of oil - thus he's immediately evil to the WSJ.
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MileHiStealth Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Chavez also switched to the Euro just like Saddam did ...
Sure way to bring the wrath of the US down on you ...
If OPEC switched to the Euro, the US economy
would collapse ...

http://www.tacomapjh.org/petrodollartheories.htm

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
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masshole1979 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. i actually witnessed the venezuelan vote in 2000
...it put ours to shame. Single nation-wide ballot, with pictures for the illiterate no less (who make up about 8% of both Venezuelan and US populations). Polling places supervised by national guard. Paper ballots, of course.

Frankly, I don't trust US-run exit polls in Venezuela when so many in the US power structure have come out in favor of a coup in that country. They even tried to pretend the last coup was a popular revolution, then didn't even admit they had egg on their faces when the golpistas were knocked out in 24 hours.

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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates are partisan hacks.
And why the hell are you quoting the WSJ opinion page? Do you think any of us believe a word written there? They insinuated Clinton was a murderer for Christ's sake! Go back to Freeperville. Nobody believes this bullshit. The Venezuelan election was 100 more transparent than ours. Back to Freepville and take Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates with you.

Here is the dirt on them and their shitty exit poll:
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Penn%2C_Schoen_%26_Berland
http://www.narconews.com/Issue34/article1046.html

One juicy passage:

PSB's Venezuela poll raised eyebrows for several reasons: the opposition to Hugo Chavez seized upon it as proof that "the results from the vote itself were fraudulent"; the poll results "were sent out by fax and e-mail to media outlets and opposition offices more than four hours before polls closed," in violation of Venezuelan law; "members of Sumate, a Venezuelan group that helped organize the recall initiative, the fieldwork for the poll"; and remarks to media went beyond poll results and analysis to election commentary - Mark Penn told Associated Press that Doug Schoen "believes there were more problems with the voting than with the exit poll."<9>

Return to Freeplania.

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Hobbes199 Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. And of course they used Diebold.
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. You've got it wrong
Edited on Fri Nov-19-04 03:17 PM by CAcyclist
This is another instance of the US government trying to derail a democratically elected leader. The people against Chavez are the rich who will have to pay more taxes if he stays in power.
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SoCalDemGrrl Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. ES&S tried to steal the election in Venezuela back in 2000
Check out this link.

http://starbulletin.com/2000/06/07/news/story3.html

"Dozens of protesters have chanted "Gringos get out!" at ES&S technicians working in Venezuela's election offices. The U.S. Embassy in Caracas has protested the treatment by secret police of ES&S personnel, including alleged verbal and physical abuse and threats.

Venezuela sent an air force jet to Omaha to fetch computers and experts in a last-ditch effort to fix the problem before the delay was ordered.

Venezuela's president and the head of the nation's election board accused ES&S of trying to destabilize the country's electoral process."

THESE GUYS HAVE HAD A LOT OF PRACTICE IN STEALING ELECTIONS!!!
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