There is no real democracy

[johnnie]

I've mentioned this a few times here at DU, but I have to say it again...the machine is too big for a democracy. I have believed that the vote of the people has meant little since bush #1 and Clinton and this past selection process has nailed it for me.
I have continued to vote even though I believe that the United States Government is a whole other machine and the main elections are set up for the people so they feel like they have a say as to who is going to be their leader. I also admire the people who are busting their asses to change the system and to bring this country back to where it was supposed to be in the first place. I stay with the fight because I believe in democracy and I believe in people.
Think back through the last few decades and look at what has gone on. Take a look at the state of the union at the times that Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton and bush became president. To me it seems obvious that the elected presidents became elected because of the state our country was in. I don't believe that bush has much to do with setting up the 2000 and 2004 elections. I don't believe that anyone in their right mind would think that bush has the intellect to be able to talk his way out of a pre school classroom let alone arrange and mastermind his way in to the office as president.
This is a complex world we live in and I still believe that the powers to be do not trust the decisions of the people. I also believe that the elections have been set for a very long time, but the difference in the last few elections has been that the communications between us all has been better and the Internet and such has played a large part in it all. We were once told who was president usually on the night of the election. The last two have been disputed due to the fact that we all got to see, in real time, what was really going on out there and communicate those findings to each other just as quick. It will surface one day and things might change, but until then we must keep on trying to get the word out and to show that the election process is fraudulent and things have to change.
I might be completely wrong here people, but I don't think I am too far off. I DO NOT think that we should give up. I DO think that the fight by the people and for the people is worth while and should continue. I will continue to go to the polls and I will still speak my mind, but it is going to have to be some radical changes before democracy is once again the staple of the American people.

[PDX Bara]

1. You are correct

This country is too big to be a true democracy where the people, meaning ALL of us, not just the rich, hold the ruling power. Haven't read the entire Constitution in a while but I believe it defines this country as a republic - not exactly the same thing as defined by the New World Dictionary of the American Language. Maybe my dictionary is outdated or just down right wrong...

[bruised]

5. FLorida Exit Poll - original document

Yesterday exit poll figures for 4 pm on 11/2 were published on http://scoop.co.nz/mason/features/?s=usacoup
Below is the data from a pdf file of an official exit poll document which we are not “allowed” to see.
As usual the overall % is not shown but is easy to calculate: Kerry 49.9% Bush 50.1%.
The date is not shown or has been removed, but the number of respondents (2826) appears on the document. This is only 36 less than the total in the “final” changed data that appeared on CNN at 1.30am on 3/11.
So this is pretty much the final exit poll - before the figures were “fixed” to fit the results!
These figures show pretty much a dead heat in Florida! As these figures are slightly less favorable to Kerry than those published yesterday they may already be weighted –but as nobody is telling, it is difficult to know!

Exit poll summary
Kerry Bush
49.9% 50.1%
The exit poll data meant a cliffhanger.

But the declared votes was a walkover for Bush
Kerry Bush Declared Bush lead
3 574 509 3 955 656 381 147 votes
47.47% 52.53% 5.05%
This is 5.02% more margin for Bush than the exit pole

Conclusions
1/ No normal weighting is ever going to explain the 5% discrepancy between the exit polls and the declared result.
For example if the men/ women ratio needed to be weighted because there was evidence that men were underrepresented in the sample, increasing the 46/54 ratio shown in the document to a 49/51 ratio, only gives Bush an extra 0.2% of the vote.
2/ Either the poll was rigged or the exit poll was appallingly wrong
3/ All the exit polls that were published on the evening 2/11 have disappeared. (This data form Florida is one of the few exceptions)
4/ CNN, NBC, CBS are not releasing any information – and consider the whole subject as hype.
5/ Nobody is saying how many times the exit poll data was fixed or why.

Warren Mitofsky one of those behind the NEP, $10 exit polling operation has stated that
http://mayflowerhill.blogspot.com/2004/11/mayflower-hill-exclusive-warren.html the polls were skewed 1.9% compared to the results. Looks like more to me!
If they really want to restore confidence then they need to face this issue and release the raw canvassing data on a precinct-by-precinct basis for all thestates that were canvassed.

But don’t count on it – it might turn up some more surprises!

The following is page 1 of 8 that I have in in pdf
(I would have posted the whole pdf file but didn't know how)
Florida General Exit Poll Page 1 of 8
Total KERY BUSH NADR Rep2000
Are you: (n=2,826) Male 46 47 52 1 -2
Female 54 52 48 0 3
Sex by race (n=2,775) White male 33 42 57 0 -
White female 38 46 53 0 -
Non-white male 13 59 40 1 -
Non-white female 16 64 36 0 -
Are you: (n=2,791) White 70 44 55 0 -2
Black 12 87 12 1 5
Hispanic/Latino 15 46 54 0 5
Asian 1 - - - -
Other 2 34 66 - -
AGE (60 and over) (n=2,825) 18-29 17 60 39 0 -1
30-44 27 48 51 0 1
45-59 28 44 55 0 6
60 or over 27 49 50 0 -1
Age 65 & over (n=2,825) 18-64 81 49 50 0 2
65 or over 19 51 49 1 -3
2003 total family income: (n=2,524) Under $15,000 9 61 38 1 -
$15,000-$29,999 15 61 37 1 -
$30,000-$49,999 22 53 46 0 -
$50,000-$74,999 21 47 52 0 -
$75,000-$99,999 14 40 60 0 -
$100,000-$149,999 10 46 54 - -
pages 2 to 8 omittted but I have them in pdf

[nashville_brook]

7. and who is NEP????

http://www.ecotalk.org/VNS.htm

VNS (now NEP) is a top-secret private consortium owned by ABC News, The Associated Press, CBS News, CNN, Fox News, and NBC News.

As an organization, VNS's roots date back to 1964.  Questions abound as to its real mission. One theory is that VNS could have conspired with election officials and used bogus exit poll projections as a cover (a de fact certification) for election fraud. It should be noted that the late Collier brothers, authors of book VoteScam: The Stealing of America, which exposed VNS's secret operations, were off-the-mark when they stated the following: "By means of an unofficial private corporation named News Election Service (NES - now known as VNS), the Establishment press has actual physical control of the counting and dissemination of the vote, and it refuses to let the public know how it is done." This statement is not completely correct. Tabulation and certification of elections is done at the local, county, state and federal levels. However, it is true that those who control the tabulation, control the election. And all-to-often it is private corporations who control vote counting technology. 

[newyawker99]

9. Hi bruised!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Tace]

2. Good Summary Of Our Situation

It has been painful for me to learn this. And it is painful to walk around each day talking to folks who don't understand.

[nashville_brook]

3. Saul Alinsky -- Rules for Radicals -- it's the power, stupid

We have no institutional power. We have to understand this point. We have to play outsider politics and somehow GAIN POWER.

from rules for radicals:

"We approach a critical point when our tongues trap our minds. I do not propose to be trapped by tact at the expense of truth. Striving to avid the force, vigor and simplicity of the word 'power' we soon become averse to thinking in vigorous, simple, honest terms. We strive to invent sterilized synonyms, cleansed of the opprobrium of the word POWER -- but the new words mean something different, so that they tranquilyze us, begin to shepherd our mental processes off the main, conflict-ridden, grimy, and realistic p;ower-paved highway of life.

To travel down the sweeter-smelling, peaceful, more socially acceptable, more respectable, indefinite byways, ends in a failure to acheive an honest understanding of the issues that we must come to grips with if we are to do the job."

[Oak2004]

11. That book, btw, is a superb guide for what we're dealing with today

It's been a while since I owned a copy. I think I'll go see if it's in print.

[Daughter]

4. But....

I believe the last two elections were fixed. I believe Karl Rove masterminded them. I believe there has always been cheating in elections. But not since Kennedy/Nixon have we had presidential elections this close. Since Kennedy, I do believe the president who was elected was the one with the most votes. The outrage comes with the past two elections, which from the looks of it were fixed. And this is why we are here right now, the outrage.

Maybe Kerry won't get the electoral votes in Ohio or Florida, but I also feel optimistic the truth will be revealed in a Watergate-esque manner within Bush's new term as faux president.

[johnnie]

6. Kennedy

There has always been speculation that Kennedy won in 1960 with help from a certain group of powerful people. And I believe it is true that almost all elections have been "fixed". As I said, with the way things can be communicated these days, it is just more obvious as to what has been happening for quite a while.

[newyawker99]

10. Hi Daughter!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[sce56]

8. Look at this question on CNN why is it not there for Florida?

or other states

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/FL/P/00/epolls.0.html


PRESIDENTIAL VOTE IN 2000
BUSH KERRY NADER
TOTAL 2004 2000 2004 2004

Did Not Vote (17%) 45% n/a 54% 1%

Gore (37%) 10% n/a 90% 0%

Bush (43%) 91% n/a 9% 0%

Other (3%) 21% n/a 71% 3%

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html







lie = repug
LB=Killer