Do Polling Places Usually Count Their Own Ballots?

[On the Road]

The Volusia County situation leads me to ask.

If the votes were counted at the polling place themselves, and reported to the county, any attempt to change the count afterwords would be detectable by contacting the original source. However, if the ballots were counted at the county level, establishing fraud might be more difficult because the polling places wouldn't know the real count.

Just curious. Helps narrow down the likely options.

[Blue in the face]

1. Ballot counting

From every election I've been involved in, each precinct counts their votes and sends them to the county. That is why it is so key that Bev snagged the precinct tapes in Volusia Cty.

[On the Road]

3. Very Basic Question:

Does "precinct" equal "polling place" or can there be several polling places per precinct? Just wondering. I don't have a background in this.

And I may have misunderstood: Where exactly did Bev visit? I thought it was the Volusia County office in charge of elections. You're saying it was an individual precinct or polling place?

[lostnfound]

21. No, but there can be multiple precincts in a polling place

and some voters were disenfranchised because they cast their ballots at the wrong table in the building. (I read that in a DU news article today, I think.)

[goddess40]

2. Poll worker replies

I am a poll worker in WI and by the sound of it Volusia County has the same system our county has. Poll workers tabulate the number of ballots from each ward in their district. This is only the number of ballots, not the number of votes for each person. Then we take the ballots to the County Court House where they are tabulated on a visual scanner that spits out a print out (I think this is what Volusia Co. calls a tape) with all the votes tabulated on it.

[On the Road]

5. So in Wisconsin (or the part you're familiar with)

the poll worker knows the ballot totals but not the number of votes per candidate? Or does the poll worker stay with the machine until the votes are scanned?

The method you describe sounds like there's a lot of opportunity at the county level to commit fraud undetected.

One can only hope that fraud was committed stupidly in some places --votes thrown out, phantom votes created, evidence left behind -- that could blow it open.

[John Q. Citizen]

4. Depending on the county and machine type

some are centrally tabulated and some are tabulated at the precinct and then transmitted.

At least that's how it appears to be based on the verified voting site maps.

[bones_7672]

6. In Ohio ...

each precinct counts the NUMBER of ballots, but sends it to the county HQ for the results to be tabulated. At least, in the counties that use punch cards.

[Igel]

7. NY State ...

at least in Monroe County, the election inspectors (poll workers) crack open the lever-type machines and record the numbers on two copies of a form. And we all sign it (4 inspectors, two each from the two top vote-getting parties in the last general election; two pairs so that each step can be done by a pair of partisans). This happens seconds after the polls close (we've been there since 6 am, it's 9 pm, and we want to go home). Each polling station/precinct does its own machines, even if numerous precincts are housed under one roof.

When done, we put a security seal on the machine. The write-in sheets, any affadavit ballots (they had provisional ballots before HAVA), incident logs, election inspector notes, vote report forms, and anything else that could bear on understanding how things went at the precinct go into an envelope that the polling station chair drops off at the administrative offices.

I've always seen a quick check done by the poll workers: do the number of votes cast for each office/measure fit with the number of voters? Usually there are a lot of undervotes, esp. for minor offices. Sometimes there are a few write-in votes; a massive write-in campaign would make the informal check meaningless. I've never seen a case where there were more votes cast than we had voters, but it's not like I've done this for decades.

I think that "they" verify the security seals and crack the machines a second time to double-check what the poll workers reported, but that would happen prior to certification of the results; the first results, on election night, are from our reports. The machines stay at the polling place until they're picked up a day or two later.

[On the Road]

8. Thanks, That's a Great Description

and it seems pretty sound. I particularly like the presence of both parties. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

To your knowledge, has this method ever been abused or allowed fraud to be committed by either party? Just curious.

[BlueDog2u]

17. Allegedly

There is a long history of vote fraud in Florida:

http://www.votescam.com/chapters.php

And for the criminal records of those who manufacture the machines, see this:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00223.htm

[demodonkey]

9. From PA Poll Worker: We do it the same as igil described for NY...

Very good description of the process.

We know the total number of voters who voted, and we would know if more votes than that total somehow were recorded for any office. There may be undervotes (people skip voting for some offices) but there should NEVER be an overvote!

[Carolab]

10. In Minnesota (I think)

There are hand-counted precincts where they just tally up the total numbers of ballots and signatures to see if they match. But I don't know that they count the total number(s) of votes for each candidate. I believe that these must be entered manually by someone using PCs and then they are batched (transmitted) to the central tabulator database.

Also, there are optically scanned precincts and there are tabulators at each precinct that count the number of ballots. I would suppose the pollworkers at each precinct tally the counts and signatures there. However, again, the total counts for each of the candidates are apparently sent electronically to the central tabulator. What I wonder is, do the precinct tabulators tally the counts for each candidate? Is this data directly uploaded to the central tabulator? Or is it stored somewhere else?

I posted a link to the manual for entering data into Minnesota's system here yesterday. The instructions seem to indicate that various people can access the database over the internet using a password and user name and they each have the ability to manually enter data as well as electronically upload it to the central tabulator (database). The data is all contained in simple text files and it seems that it would be quite simple to change precinct tallies before sending them to the central database tabulator.

I was hoping someone with more database management expertise could look it over to figure it all out and see where it is most vulnerable.

ON EDIT: I looked at the SOS's website and there is a summary sheet that must be filled out for each precinct. It DOES tally the votes for each candidate. Here is the link: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/election/summarystatement2004.pdf

[crispini]

11. We have a Diebold opscan system.

A little older system. The voters put the ballots through the scanner themselves. At the end of the day the tapes are printed out-- multiple copies-- and we all sign. It looks like a cash register tape. Then we crack open the optical scan machine, take out the card where the votes are tabulated, seal up the card, seal up the ballots, sign the official sheet with the seal numbers on them, and they are all hand carried into the office.

Do you still have that link? I'd like to see that. Very interesting.

Edited to add: AND EACH ELECTION JUDGE HAS A COPY OF THE TAPE. Do you think Bev knows this? They might not do this in Florida...but we do... I have our register tape from election day here IN MY HOUSE.

[TennisGuy2004]

12. THE STEVEN FREEMAN PAPER HAS BEEN REVISED!

Please pass on the link: http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/Documents/ExitPoll.pdf

[Cookie wookie]

13. In Georgia where we have nothing but

Diebold touchscreen voting technology (with optiscan with Diebold code for absentee ballots), at the precinct, poll workers keep track of the head count as people come in to vote. Every hour the head count is recorded. The touchscreen machines have a running total of ballots cast. Every hour these totals are recorded. At the end of the day, the tapes (like cash register tapes) are run off with the total ballots cast for each candidate. Three poll workers sign the tapes. The memory cards from each touchscreen are fed into one of the voting stations that has been designated as the "accumulator". 3 print outs of totals from all the machines are then printed. One is posted for public viewing on the door of the precinct.

This year, some of the precincts did head counts on computer databases, which could easily be altered if someone wanted to make the head count figures agree with the vote totals. For those precincts, this new procedure took away the paper record of the head counts -- SOS Cathy Cox is always finding new ways to keep us from being able to audit the vote.

The memory cards from all the machines are taken to the county elections office, where they are fed into a server and the counts are then transmitted via telephone line to the main elections office server(s). I haven't seen this part of the process in person.

Cox no longer posts the precinct totals on the SOS website, so we have no way to check to see if things are off, like we could with the Florida and Ohio (and other state) elections.

Since Cox brought in Diebold, Democrats in Georgia have lost everything. First the governor's seat, then Max Cleland's senate seat, now the Georgia House.

Get this, Georgians, and the Democrats here are too stupid to put 2 and 2 together.

[Cookie wookie]

14. I forgot to add

We have NO IDEA how the early voting (which was 30%) was monitored. Our poll workers didn't know and our voting activists didn't know, last time I checked with them.

[chomskysright]

15. So who is in control in GA? Cox OR BOE

I'm hammering on Cox. 3 e mails this past week: cc'd to 2 AJC people (too bad its Knight-ridder but will take it up elsewhere if necessary)

any ideas on voting rights people in GA?

Why the change w/ the head count? what was the rationale?

any good leads would be appreciated.

thanks, marsha hammond, phd: [e-mail]

[Cookie wookie]

16. We have a good but small team of activists

here in Georgia working for a voter verified paper audit trail.

Count the Vote: http://www.countthevote.org/
The Voter Choice Coalition: http://www.voterchoice.org/
The League Opposed to Virtual Elections

Check out the websites, which will give you some background information on actions in Georgia (though there's always more going on than is on the websites, so sign up. We need all the help we can get.

Why the change with the headcount? You'd have to get Cox to tell you that. My bet is that she'd say it's easier, more efficient, and more accurate (ha).

[Cookie wookie]

20. Forgot to address the first question:

Not sure what the BOE is that you are referring to (?) Are you thinking of the EAC (Elections Assistance Commission), the federal body that is writing suggested standards on voting?

The Secretary of State's office supervises the Elections Division (http://www.sos.state.ga.us/elections/).

The State Elections Board is responsible for "supervising and coordinating the work of the office of the Secretary of State." In my short experience with the issue, I've never seen any evidence that Cox doesn't rule the roost, so don't know if the Elections Board does anything other than rubber stamp what she wants.

When you go to the SOS website, notice their new logo, " advancing the e-government revolution." What the hell does that mean exactly. Scary.

Here's Cox's latest testimonial on the Diebold Elections System website:

"Secretary of State Cox: New Data Shows Voting Accuracy Soared in 2004 Presidential Contest in Georgia, November 18, 2004

Georgia's "2004 General Election reveals that the presidential undervote rate in this year’s election plummeted – dropping nine-fold, to only 0.39%."

“This new data makes clear that the adoption of a modern system of electronic voting dramatically improved the accuracy of the vote count in Georgia,” said Secretary of State Cox."

http://www2.diebold.com/dieboldes/default.htm

Then check out the testimonials on that same website. Cox even gave them permission to use the Georgia State Seal to help sell their product.

http://www2.diebold.com/dieboldes/testimonials.htm

Hope this was helpful.

: - )

[neohippie]

18. How do the poll books fit in?

Ok, the poll books, are the book where you sign your name to verify that you voted in the election. The number of votes per precinct should match the number of signatures in the poll book. I believe in NC they used some sort of ballot id number on a sticker that sits in the poll book, next to your name, and that number corresponds to your ballot number.

There should never be more or less ballots than signatures in that book.

Is this correct? Can anyone provide more information about this process? Shouldn't we be comparing the poll books to the number of votes cast as well?

[Slit Skirt]

19. in Colorado

we ran a tape at the end of the evening and posted the tally for each candidate in public where all could see

second tape was dropped off at another location

[lostnfound]

22. Verified voting.org categorizes systems as 'precinct-based' or 'central'

nt