Lawyers to challenge election in Ohio-Cleveland Plain Dealer

[blitzburgh55]

Lawyers to challenge election in Ohio
Saturday, November 20, 2004
Julie Carr Smyth
Plain Dealer Bureau
Columbus- A trio of activist lawyers armed with mysteriously wrong exit polls and hundreds of voter horror stories announced plans Friday to contest Ohio's presidential election as soon as the vote is official.

Their challenge could lead to widespread reconsideration of dozens of alleged election irregularities around the state - from reported computerized voting glitches to provisional-ballot mishaps to unusual incidents involving voter rolls, poll workers and machine technicians.

But it is unclear whether the complaint will ever get that far.

Columbus attorney Cliff Arnebeck, a national officer in the Alliance for Democracy, could not predict exactly when members of the coalition will be ready or able to file their request.

And, after they do, the Ohio Supreme Court would have to rule in their favor.

To qualify to reopen consideration of the election, Arnebeck said, the group needs find only 25 aggrieved electors and evidence of irregularities, both of which he and his associates have collected in abundance at hearings around the state, he said.

Another hearing is scheduled in Cleveland today.

Arnebeck said the national boards of the NAACP, Alliance for Democracy and Common Cause are reviewing requests to sign on to the litigation, which is not affiliated with either political party.

Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for the secretary of state's office, said many glitches brought to light on Internet blogs and in the alternative press will be corrected in the state's official canvass of the election.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/110094683912880.xml

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. Let the fun begin

This should be an interesting Christman season.

Fraud 2004 - the gift that just keeps giving.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

2. This has got me excited

enought to make my second post! I'm the unofficial election fraud info source for my friends here in Kathmandu. I can't wait to forward this link to them!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Kathmandu?

Far out. You may have won the DU Distance Posting Award.

The prize is an old Bob Seger song. ;-)

4. Which one?

Whee who! the DU Distance Posting Award. Wait til I tell my kids! I'm feeling braing dead. Which Seger song?

Kathmandu's a great place to live, especially now that the Maoist insurgents seem less dangerous than * and company.

[crispini]

25. Snerk. I think the song would be.

I think I'm goin' to Katmandu
That's really, really where i'm going to.
If i ever get out of here,
That's what i'm gonna do.

[rodeodance]

8. many glitches brought to light on Internet blogs and in the alternative pr

GRAND

......Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for the secretary of state's office, said many glitches brought to light on Internet blogs and in the alternative press will be corrected in the state's official canvass of the election.......

[Politicub]

9. Fuck the mainstream media

They won't report on the obvious fraud. It looks like alternative media, blogs and the law are all on our side.

[wrate]

24. The MSM is unknowingly making itself irrelevant. Pretty soon no one will

care to watch the news. I have stopped watching the news just as many here and many everywhere and rely on the Internet. Its a trend that will not stop until the biased news whores decide to be newscasters again. And if they take too long to realize the hole they're digging for themselves, then maybe TV news will be a thing of the past in the not so distant future.

[Pachamama]

48. I'm already watching less...and the more I talk to people, they

are doing the same and all are mentioning their observations that the news isn't giving them the whole picture....

Sad, but like the people in Soviet Russia, we have to go "outside" our media to get the "truth" and the "news"....

[rdmccur]

70. same here

I have also cut way back on depending on major media sources for news
except for some of the news related to science or medical discoveries, except I still depend on Link TV (no big corporate sponsors for news)
and sometimes Newsworld International (cable/satellite). Forget the major us networks!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. And The Media's Silence

Is Still Deafening.......


Besides being reported in print in Ohio, are any local networks covering this???

[newyawker99]

39. Hi OmmmSweetOmmm!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

51. Hello newyawker99!

Thank you! It's good to be here! Cheers!:)

[modman]

63. media reports in ohio

No.
Nothing of substance anyhow(in Parma/Cleveland area).
Even if a small factoid is "reported",it is dismissed as, already having been debunked or of no significant importance.
It really is amazing how few people I talk to, even the ones that were really into the election, know anything about the instances of possible fraud or disenfranchisement.
It's only those of us in the blogosphere that are seeing this stuff in it's entirety, thus leading many of us to believe that shenanigans were going on.

[yardwork]

27. Welcome to DU!

[dewaldd]

5. "includes...an actual recount of all ballots cast on Election Day"???

by what means?

[Nightwing]

6. Is there any way Kerry can win this way??

That indeed is the prime question. It's not enough to prove voter fraud, Bushco must go and the sooner the better!

[Peace Patriot]

59. I'm not sure.

If a judge found substantial election fraud, I presume he/she could require a re-vote (another election in Ohio)--or a first or a second re-count, depending on what he/she thought of their methods of counting the votes. I'm trying to think of precedents. Any lawyers in this forum?

The article states that Ohio recounts in the past have changed the outcome for close local races, but never for a big national election. But this national election was extremely unusual and precedent-setting in many ways--not the least of which is the stark contradiction between the exit polls (a big Kerry win) and the Republican-owned and controlled secret central vote tabulation software results (brainteaser: who do you think won the latter?).

[formernaderite]

68. There could not under any circumstances be a revote for the president...

..in Ohio. Fraud is an entirely different issue, and if provable could put Bush's Ohio victory in doubt...which would diminish his "mandate". However, I no longer believe that it will result in a Kerry presidency.

[vkobaya]

79. What Democracy?

>> I'm trying to think of precedents. <<

<g> Yeah! Look at what's going on in the Ukraine. We sneer at them and consider them a backwater state, but at least, they have the backbone to fight for their democracy. Is that Kerry I see hiding under the desk?

"Johnny get angry, Johnny get mad
Give me the biggest lecture I ever had
I want a brave man, I want a caveman
Johnny, show me that you care, really care for me."
. Joannie Summers, 1962

Vicki

[The Flaming Red Head]

7. They may decide to invade Ohio next instead of Iran (I'm not kidding)

now that we're looking into their WMVDs (Weapons of Massive Vote Destruction)

[Etzel510]

10. Trial Lawyers, what would we do without them?

Good for them, at least it will keep them from filing frivilous lawsuits for the duration.

[drthais]

11. wait WAIT!

remember...

that's not 'trial lawyers'
...that's ACTIVIST trial lawyers

I can't believe the paper wrote that - what baloney

[The Flaming Red Head]

12. Civil Rights Attorneys are all that

IMOFO

[esvhicl]

14. Challenge to the election

Remember the scene in "Fahrenheit 911" where the black caucus members coud not get one senator to challenge the election?

Well, surely, if there is a similar movement this time and Kerry is a senator; surely, he will sponsor this?

Kerry's email today says "regardless of the outcome of this election....once the votes...are counted"---as if the outcome had not been decided yet. Am I grasping at straws?

[gordianot]

17. Straws are all we have left.

Welcome to DU.

[ginnyinWI]

18. I'm also a newbie here...

I have a housekeeping question I haven't been able to figure out--maybe you would help? I want to change my avatar, and don't know how to. What do I do? Thanks!

[gordianot]

21. See below

Go to options menu on the the discussion forum. This will be on top of the screen. Once in options go to "edit your profile". It will allow you to change your avatar, You can also ask for help from administrators moderators.

Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[ginnyinWI]

22. Thanks!

:-)

[newyawker99]

42. Hi ginnyinWI!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[newyawker99]

41. Hi esvhicl!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[davidwparker]

55. hopefully not.

I watched Kerry's message about giving kids healthcare and signed the petition. With him "doing a Gore" the day after the election, he will start redeeming himself if he does all he can to expose voter fraud in this country by speaking up at that time.

The Dem party cannot allow disenfranchisement of any more African-Americans. After thinking about 4 more years of the Chimp and all that meant, I was next outraged by the message we sent to African-Americans in this country.

I'm a middle-aged Caucasian and my return receipt for my absentee ballot has still not be sent back. Repugs apparently believe in equal opportunity disenfranchisement.

http://blackboxvoting.org
http://votecobb.org

[Straight Shooter]

15. Guardians of the Constitution

"First let's kill all the lawyers"

Shakespeare included that line because, without lawyers, there is no barrier to injustice against the common people.

Think about this: Of the 56 people who signed the Declaration of Independence, 30 were lawyers; of the 55 who drafted the Constitution, 31 were lawyers. 25 out of 42 presidents have been lawyers.

[cilla4progress]

16. Uphold the Lawyets

I proudly work for legal aid attorneys; best job and PEOPLE I've ever worked with! It always upsets me to see these guys and gals dissed; especially the non-profit ones.....

C

[newyawker99]

43. Hi cilla4progress!!

Welcomet o DU!! :toast:

[cilla4progress]

64. Thanks!

Thanks, I've been lurking here alot since the election. On pins and needles about the recount. Sadly I'm seeing less momentum for it as each day passes. What's your read on it?

On the up side - esp. after recieving JFK's e-mail this week, I am confident and convinced that he - we - are going to continue fighting for the issues we stood for in the campaign. In fact, this is a continuation of the campaign. Nothing says we have to roll over and accept this administration's policies or postures. I'm really glad we still have Kerry in the Senate, and I believe he is committed to contining the fight!

[Eric J in MN]

19. I never heard of the "Alliance for Democracy" before. Have you?

Their website is at:
http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org/

Anyone know anything about them? Is anyone famous associated with them?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. On "Alliance For Democracy"

Randi Rhodes of Air America Radio is working with them and recommending that people donate to them. I believe they are going to help with the recount in Ohio.

[Eric J in MN]

20. If you belong to the NAACP or Common Cause, ask the

respective organizaton you belong to, to join the litigation.

[chomskysright]

34. I've been sending info to NAACP

I've sent them lots of stuff: to their Washington Bureau web address

[jackster]

23. I dreamed last night that the Ohio recount reversed the election!

I woke up dreaming of who would be Kerry's new cabinet.

I don't believe anything will really change, but we must put some integrity back into the process. It's always been corrupt and as long as greed exists it will continue to be, but we have to continue to work to ensure that everyone is allowed to vote, exercises that right, and then gets their vote counted fairly.

with the dawn of the electronic age, only now could the fraud be so widespread.

[politicasista]

30. Nice dream

Bush ALWAYS gets his way.:argh:

[Pachamama]

49. Hey! Your having my recurring dream! How cool!

Welcome to the DU Jackster! We love freethinking newbies joining our forum here! :toast:

Yeah, I've been having this same dream now since after the election...I am either in denial or you and I are "seers" of the future... :hi:

[Dem2theMax]

53. Can I come and hang out in your dream?

Mine are never as good as this one of yours. :)

[witchhazl]

26. THEY'LL correct "glitches" in THEIR "official canvass" ?!?

Is anybody watching this process? This is the Secretary of State's office, for Christ's sake.

>LoParo said the canvass includes precinct-level auditing of results, poll book reviews, provisional-ballot verification and an actual recount of all ballots cast on Election Day. Official results historically have varied from final totals only enough to affect the outcomes of very close local races, nothing of the scale of a national race.< (emphasis added)

Someone please tell me this whole process is monitored just like the election.

[DSperoRN]

28. A Republican judge will decide this

There's not much chance of this going anywhere. The Republican chief justice of the Ohio Supreme Court has to decide whether the challenge is worth hearing.

Perhaps there's some way to put pressure on him or reason with him?

David

[understandinglife]

29. Please spread the word "Prove My Vote Counts, Now"

the largest 'civics class' in our Nation's history may be opening in a place near you, sometime soon:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/20/105320/33

Please 'ring the bell' -- 'time for class, fellow citizens.'

Please spread the word. Push this with every one and every organization you know.

Thank you.

[shelley806]

33. Thanks for the link...

I will act on it, and maybe we should post this separately with the media list attached, and a sample e-mail to be sent to MSM with the title "Prove My Vote Counts!"

BTW: Wecome to DU!

[understandinglife]

36. Thank you...

....for the welcome and the suggestion.

Since I am indeed very new here, I will leave it to you and others to decide how best to spread the word.

Please understand -- I have zero 'pride of authorship' in this matter and zero interest in having it be about me or any one citizen.

So push it as hard and as broadly as you are motivated to do.

I do suggest one thing -- retain the "Now" -- "Prove My Vote Counts, Now"

Thank you.

[newyawker99]

44. Hi understandinglife!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[understandinglife]

50. Thank you and....

....please consider ringing the bell for "Prove My Vote Counts, Now".

[rdmccur]

46. soros

Contact George Soros! I did. Ask your email to be forwarded to him at
[e-mail]
and Michael Moore!

[understandinglife]

57. Thank you and done (n/t)

[understandinglife]

56. Brad Friedman sends a crystal clear message to the NYTimes

Quite pertinent to the "Prove My Vote Counts, Now" endeavor.

Suggest you read it and consider sending the NYTimes a statement of your commitment to ensuring that the every vote is counted, accurately.

Here's Brad's message:

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00000979.htm

In the text you can just click on "Here's a Place You Can Vent"! for a quick email link to several pertinent addresses at the NYTimes.

Thank you.

[understandinglife]

67. Brad follows with "15 Unanswered questions" the NYTimes ....

...should be investigating -- hardly an exhaustive list, as he notes.

The list is a terse summary with links of events worthy of considerable attention.

Link:

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00000980.htm

Peace.

[Carolab]

31. Glitches will be corrected

"Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for the secretary of state's office, said many glitches brought to light on Internet blogs and in the alternative press will be corrected in the state's official canvass of the election."

And exactly HOW does Carlo know THIS?

Are they CORRECTING them as we type what we have found?

[ChampneyK]

35. Here's how they slant the news

"Columbus- A trio of activist lawyers armed with
mysteriously wrong exit polls . . ."

That's a slanted lead. Loaded words: "Activist,
Armed."  And an unsupported assertion: "mysteriously
wrong."

When you see stuff written like this (whether politically Left
or Right), don't believe it.

- Ken Champney, retired editor, Yellow Springs OH  

[Carolab]

37. KICK

for JUST PROVE IT

[maryallen]

38. Thanks, Ken and welcome to DU!

It's nice to hear from a real professional.

[newyawker99]

45. Hi ChampneyK!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[noiretextatique]

47. absolutely...another snooze source described US as "activists"

members of DU, that is. i sent a letter stating that using loaded words like "activists" was a feeble attempt to paint DU, and the issue, voter fraud, as something regular folks are not and should not be concerned about. i told them there are a lot of plain, old regular people at DU who are concerned about our crumbling democracy and fair elections, and perhaps it was time for them to start reporting on THAT, vs. trying to discredit some of the messengers.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[glitch]

73. Very good point - and welcome to DU! nt

[Lil]

40. kick for good news!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

58. COBB NEEDS HELP IN OHIO

I donated to Cobb so he could have his recount in Ohio. I just received the following from him.

On November 11, you joined over five thousand contributors
and six hundred (so far) volunteers who stepped forward to
help our campaign stand up with millions of other across the
country. We are voters across the political spectrum: Greens,
Libertarians, Independents, Kucinich-Dean-Kerry Democrats and
Republicans ready to restore integrity to our voting system.
We insist that the legitimacy of representative government be
defended from the flagrant threats to the public's confidence
that this and the previous election have engendered.

Below, I want to share with you news of our progress toward
ensuring a complete count of the votes in the Ohio election.

But first let me cover a couple of other quick topics.

I write first to thank you for your financial donation of
15.00 which will support our efforts to ensure that every
vote is counted and to instigate a grass-roots movement that
can restore public confidence in electoral democracy. We need
voter verified paper ballots, publicly financed elections,
proportional representation and instant run-off voting, open
access to the ballot, the enforcement and extension of the
Voting Right Act and non-partisan election officials.

In this letter we want to (1) update you on recent developments
and our plans for the recount effort, (2) invite you to subscribe
to new list serves designed to keep you in the loop or even
actively engaged as we move this campaign forward, (3) ask folks who
are willing to fill some critical volunteer roles, (4) ask you to
spread the word about our efforts and (5) inform you that unless
you confirm your subscription invitations described below,
you will not see any further email from us again until we have
a final report to share with you after Congress certifies the
election on January 6th.

We hope that everyone who has contributed or volunteered will
join our new [e-mail] list. This is
a low-traffic read-only list where our press secretary and
campaign manager will share with you breaking news, by, about
and of interest to those who support this recount campaign.

When you contributed, our campaign had not yet posted our
volunteer form. While we appreciate your financial support
and could not proceed without it, the truth is that a recount
without our campaign providing independent oversight of the
process will not provide meaningful feedback on the problems
or do much to improve public confidence in the system or in
this year's result.

We're asking you to consider coming to Ohio with us.

We estimate we will need nearly 2,000 volunteers to monitor
recount activities in all 88 Ohio counties. As I write this,
we are still nearly $20,000 shy of our fundraising goal
for the Ohio recount (even as we continue to consider the
problems in New Mexico and other states). Please send your
friends and family to our site and urge them to volunteer and /
or contribute to this vital work.
http://web.greens.org/c/cobb/supporters.cgi?function=donate
http://web.greens.org/c/cobb/supporters.cgi?function=volunteer&process=7

If you prefer to not get any further email from us, simply
ignore this note and you will only receive a final report of
our efforts after the Presidential Election has been certified
by the Congress on January 6th.

Our campaign has made a commitment to not spam the voters of
this country. This promise precludes our sending you further
email after this thank you letter inviting you to subscribe to
our lists. However, if you want us to keep you in the loop,
you simply need to respond to the the subscription invitation
you'll see under separate cover. Or write back to let us know
that you do in fact wish to subscribe to our campaign lists.
We want to keep you in the loop. But we do not want to abuse
your privacy or your inbox.

We have asked Holly Hart, of Iowa, to lead our efforts to coordinate
the participation of volunteers in this important historical effort to
reclaim public confidence in our elections. She needs your help. So
far, 600 volunteers have stepped forward. We will need at least 1,400
more before we arrive in Ohio. First she needs help communicating and
coordinating with 2,000 people over the next few days.

Please call Holly at 319-337-7341 if you can organize within
New York to mobilize volunteers to come to Ohio and to
help us raise this campaign's goals and profile within your
community and state.

The corporate media is busy belittling and ridiculing
our efforts to defend and expand democracy in Ohio and by
extension in the rest of our nation as well. We need your
help to counter the attacks. We must not let them manufacture
our consent to expecting stolen elections cycle after cycle.
We are inviting everyone who has lent their support to this
campaign to follow that up with letters to the editor explaining
why you are supporting this recount effort. For ideas on what
you might include in such a letter, please visit our website at:
http://www.votecobb.org/recount/be-the-media

Please help us break through the media white-out
of our efforts by urging others to come to our <a
href-"http://www.votecobb.org/">web site and to contribute their
financial and volunteer support to this effort.

Our efforts are already well under way.

-- On Monday, Common Cause, the National Voting Rights
Institute, Demos, the Fannie Lou Hamer Project and People
for the American Way Foundation issued a joint statement in
support of the Cobb and Badnarik demand for an Ohio recount.

-- In the past week, we have raised over $200,000 of the
initial $250,000 our staff has budgeted for this effort.
And with your help we expect to reach our goal by this coming
Monday.

-- On Wednesday, our team of attorneys overnighted to each Ohio
county election director asking them to prepare for the recount.

-- On Friday, November 19th, our attorneys delivered a bond
to guarantee our $113,600 recount fee.

-- We have rehired staff we had just laid off at the end of
the campaign so we can continue this work. We have so far
identified 600 of the 2,000 volunteers we predict will be
needed for the work in Ohio. We are organizing now to train,
house and feed the folks on the ground in Ohio who will monitor
the recount on our behalf. We have established new list serves
to support this effort.

-- We continue to investigate what role we might play in New
Mexico, to monitor developments in Florida and other states
and to build alliances with citizen based election reform
groups across this nation.

-- And our efforts have now been endorsed by Ohio Congressman
Dennis Kucinich.

We need an election system and election officials we can trust.
The problems in Florida in 2000 and the problems in Ohio in
2004 will repeat themselves in 2008 unless we do something
about it. Americans can agree that our elections should be
administered by an independent non-partisan commission, and
not by the state chairs of presidential campaigns.

Again we thank you sincerely for your participation in this
Democracy Movement. We look forward to seeing you in Ohio.

Yours for a just, sustainable and democratic future,

David Cobb
and the entire Cobb-LaMarche Team

"Thank you to the Greens and all others whose support for a
recount will rescue a shred of honesty in the conduct of the
2004 Ohio election."
-- Dennis Kucinich.

"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they
fight you. Then you win."
-- Mahatma K Gandhi
owing. They need lots of volunteers there to help.

[Peace Patriot]

60. $100

...to Cobb and the Greens! I'm still wondering what the Democrats did with my $100 donated on Election Night to the legal fund "to count every vote"--after Kerry's big win mysteriously turned into phantasms of electrons in the aether dictating the installation of the Fourth Reich. (I just Googled Germany, 1934--yeeeeiiiiiikes!)

So...another $100, this time to people who will ***USE IT!!!!!!****

Did I shout that loud enough?

Cobb doesn't mention the Republican owned and controlled, secret software running the central vote tabulators of nearly every state in the union. You think you foiled them using an absentee ballot? Think again. They scan them into a computer and shoot the electrons to God knows where, to be "tabulated" (ha, ha, ha--but at least you got yourself a paper trail). Short of returning to a paper ballot (an increasingly attractive option, for which John Kenny did a hunger strike), I think we need, bottom-line...

1. Open source code (like they have in Venezuela).
2. A paper receipt for every vote (like they have in Venezuela).

And we can't expect the Reichstag to do it. (I don't want them to go anywhere near election reform, ever again.) We've got to do it ourselves, state by state, county by county.

But first, recounts, and, where recounts have been deliberately made impossible, audits and lawsuits--everywhere we can get them. This election is NOT over.

[Cheswick2.0]

61. wouldn't it be easier and cheeper just to have a paper ballot?

let's fight for that.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. A dear friend of mine........

A dear friend of mine, who worked tirelessly to get Kerry elected, even became a delegate at the convention for her swing state, sent Kerry $5000 for this purpose. Since, she has been on the phone several times trying to get it back so she could use it where it will really count. They wouldn't put her through to anyone who could help her. She has since sent in a lovely donation for Cobbs.

Most anyone whom stayed apprised of the possibilities, knew that there was infinite potential for fraud to take place, and for voter disenfranchisement. Boy, Karl Rove has that down to a science... So there was Kerry, with some of the most political savvy people working for him, and they didn't know? Didn't Howard Dean who appears in Votergate ( http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater268.html ) let them know? I would bet my friend's $5000 even money that they did.

Then why fold up on November 3rd without a fight? Why fold up with a war chest of Millions, and at the same have Edwards, who never gave a concession speech, Promise that every vote will be counted. Why does John Kerry send via email, that ambiguous speech? Doesn't he know that there will be no 2008 election if 2004 isn't made right???

Any thoughts?

[consciousobjector]

69. Kerry may still just be biding his time...

if enough hard evidence is found I think Kerry will use that money for the court battles that will ensue...

By the way Jackster and Pachamama, I have been having recurring dreams of Ohio flipping for Kerry too...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

72. I hope that your dreams really do come true!!!! :)

[alaintex]

78. Not her money though, right?

I don't think it's legal to donate $5000 to a candidate.

[pointsoflight]

65. I suggest posting this as a new thread so it doesn't get buried

[understandinglife]

66. Second that suggestion (n/t)

[Hobbes199]

71. Good news!

We need to get one of these going on in Florida and New Mexico.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VOX]

75. That's the spirit.

Rest easy on boot hill.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Generator]

77. We NEED mass protests in Ohio to get this in the news and NOW

I know Skinner and many hardcore activists were ready to descend on 11/3. I was ready to send money. Some of us have families and are on the West Coast.

Close to Ohio? Can't someone organize mass protests? Their needs to be viablity. Something. Anything. Get it going.

[YBR31]

80. maybe Alan Dershowitz can help

His email is: [e-mail]