Well the Ukrainians know how to do it: Ukraine gripped by poll turmoil

[ahyums]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4031981.stm



that's the way to get some attention

[ladjf]

1. Unfortunately, the Ukrainians have a couple of things that

we don't.

[ahyums]

3. sure, an active opposition leader and international pressure, all the same

if the ability existed to create really large scale protests I don't doubt for a second they would have a dramatic impact. ( Mind you the protests would have to be extremely focused though, they couldn't just be seen as protests in general about Bush - which I think is what they would probably be perceived as)

[bullimiami]

24. B

ollocks.

2 of them. We are apparently neutered.

[ladjf]

30. Bingo!

[tngledwebb]

2. This may be the mirror image

of what we are going through. Or it may be what we should be doing. Or...

[knowbody0]

5. the crowd was impressive

10,000 say the media.

[LisaL]

4. Well,

"Opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko told supporters to stage a civil disobedience campaign."
Our leader told us to follow Bush and play nice.
A big difference.

[Nicholas_J]

6. The protests are largel;y being instigated

And financed by the U.S.

This is likely ewhat is behind the argument that Putin and Bushjust had. To be hinest, the Ukrainians are being a bit stupid going for a pro-western government aparticularly if it is the Bush Government, because this administration will screw them six ways from sunday, and the profits that receive from western investment will largely be minimized the American energy industry trying to control the Ukrainian Government. Thugh historically, the Ukraine has had problems with Russia, they have benefited more from this relation that they have suffered from it. The Ukraine. like Poland, has been an invasion route for millenia, and the Russians were very active at protecting them from other invaders in the past. They have a common history and culture, and common interests that would be served better through close ties, rather than through ties with the U.S.who will play divide and conquer to try to weaken both states. It is more than likely that theProme minister actually did win the election, (the results were simply too close for there to have been much fraud, and given that there are criminal elements who support the western backed candidate, odds are that there was fraud on both sides

[papau]

7. criminal elements who support the western backed candidate"- meaning Bush?

:-)

[Nicholas_J]

9. Well partly

The energy industry in the Ukraine and Bulgaria is is owned largely by a criminal organization that got rich as olympic athletes, and then used the money to engage in black market activities under the communists, and later when the communist government fell, they stepped in to fill the power vacuum. They used their wealth to become major shareholders in the main natural gas and energy corporation in the Ukraine and Bulgaria, and thus they are partners with the next biggest shareholder, U.S. energy interests, which incluude BUsh and his cronies.

[Alizaryn]

8. Sound familiar?

Exit poll info. Looks familiar doesn't it?

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-9/110104524175520.xml&storylist=international

[newyawker99]

12. Hi Alizaryn!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[masshole1979]

10. Yushchenko in 2008

Now there's a guy who knows what an exit poll is.

Best quote: NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer: ``I can only express my disappointment at the way these elections were conducted, including media bias and the abuse of state resources.''

They got fox news in the Ukraine?

The one big difference is that the margin of difference between the exit polls and the official tallies is much bigger there than it was here (correct me if I'm wrong). Still, I have trouble believing their exit polls are somehow better than ours.

exit poll and election tally results, from the AP:
******
With more than 99 percent of precincts counted, Prime Minister Yanukovych had 49.42 percent, compared to Yushchenko's 46.70 percent, the Central Election Commission said.

But an exit poll, conducted by anonymous questionnaires under a program funded by several Western governments, including the United States, gave Yushchenko 54 percent of the vote, with Yanukovych trailing with 43 percent. Another poll put Yushchenko ahead by 49.4 to 45.9 percent, the Interfax news agency reported.
*****

But why did the OSEC say the Ukraine election was unclean but ours was OK? What could the Ukranians possibly have done that wasn't done here??? How many opposition-candidate-leaning precincts did that guy disenfranchise?

From the AP (and I really don't think this is too long to be fair use, but correct me if I'm wrong).
*******
The joint mission -- representing the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, the Council of Europe, the European Parliament and NATO -- said they observed abuse of state resources in favor of the prime minister, who has the support of the outgoing president Leonid Kuchma and the government of Russia, Ukraine's powerful neighbor.

~

``With an even heavier heart than three weeks ago, I have to repeat the message from the first round: This election did not meet a considerable number of international standards for democratic elections,'' said Bruce George, the team's leader.

Even stronger criticism came from Richard Lugar, chairman of the Senate's Foreign Relations Committee...

President Bush, who sent Lugar to Kiev as his envoy, warned last week that Washington would reconsider its relations with Ukraine in the event of a fraudulent election.

[papau]

11. A response from (US good guy) media types is sarcasm - replace voting with

an exit poll report.

sigh...

I think in the current real US world - replacing voting with exit poll results would indeed change for the better our elections - and would result in folks getting elected who really were the majority choice!

:-)

[Roger_Otip]

16. america has the best vote riggers in the world

But why did the OSEC say the Ukraine election was unclean but ours was OK? What could the Ukranians possibly have done that wasn't done here??? How many opposition-candidate-leaning precincts did that guy disenfranchise?

the ukrainians are just amateurs when it comes to this vote rigging game, though they'll probably get better at it with practice. they're tactics were more heavy handed, and with paper ballots they had to be more obvious. with computer voting it's a lot easier to keep your manipulations hidden from observers.

but still, we need to make the OSCE aware of what happened on november 2nd. their contacts page is here: http://www.osce.org/general/contacts/

[masshole1979]

22. a lot that went wrong in this election was pretty blatant

So much bad stuff happened right out in the open in this election, and it was well noted in the MSM--the lines until 1 AM and later, for god's sake. The precincts with thousands of voters and only a few machines. The conferences in Ohio have collected a lot of the details and also gotten a lot of press. My question is: where were the OSCE and Global Exchange's monitors?

the ukrainians are just amateurs when it comes to this vote rigging game, though they'll probably get better at it with practice. they're tactics were more heavy handed, and with paper ballots they had to be more obvious. with computer voting it's a lot easier to keep your manipulations hidden from observers.

[Ifonly]

13. how was D.C. rally?

There was a rally in Washington D.C. last Friday about the voting debacle. Anyone know how many showed up and what happened? I suppose it didn't quite get up to the level they saw in the Ukraine.

[Hobbes199]

14. Hot damn! We need some of that.

[meatsack]

15. Double Standards

you could take this article:
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/22/ukraine.ap/index.html
and replace nearly every incident with a similar American one.

But an exit poll, conducted under a Western-funded program, gave Yushchenko 54 percent of the vote to Yanukovych's 43 percent.
compared to: Kerry's exit polls in swing states

"This election did not meet a considerable number of international standards for democratic elections," said mission leader Bruce George.
compared to: international monitors at a polling station in southern Florida said Tuesday that voting procedures fell short in many ways of the best global practices.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/03/news/observe.html

"The abuse of state resources in favor of the prime minister continued, as well as an overwhelming media bias in his favor."
compared to: There were also far fewer machines in the inner-city districts than in the suburbs, Fitrakis said. “I documented at least a dozen people leaving because the lines were so long in African-American areas,” he said. “Blackwell did a great deal of suppressing before the election - like attempting to refuse to process voter registration forms.”
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21thoreau.htm
+ many more instances
Media-bias.... I think you all know about the SCLM and it's total lack of actual reporting, which favored the President as he hasn't done much actual good.

Even stronger criticism came from Richard Lugar, chairman of the U.S. Senate's Foreign Relations Committee.
"It is now apparent that a concerted and forceful program of election-day fraud and abuse was enacted with either the leadership or cooperation of governmental authorities," said Lugar, who was sent to Kiev as U.S. President George W. Bush's envoy.
compared to: openly biased Governors and Secretaries of Elections in swing states.... Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, Kenneth Blackwell. Not to mention Republican ties to makers of Election Machines, Diebold, Chuck Haegel....

The Central Election Commission office was heavily guarded by riot police and armored vehicles. Several buses with Yanukovych supporters were parked nearby.
compared to: “In a face to face meeting between the FBI and our director of Emergency Services,” Ms. South continued, “we were informed that on a scale from 1 to 10, the tri-state area of Southwest Ohio was ranked at a high 8 to a low 9 in terms of security risk. Warren County in particular, was rated at 10.”
But the Bureau says it issued no such warning.
“The FBI did not notify anyone in Warren County of any specific terrorist threat to Warren County before Election Day,” FBI spokesman Michael Brooks told Enquirer reporters Erica Solvig and Dan Horn.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6368819/

Yushchenko contended that some precincts in Yanukovych strongholds showed improbably high turnout figures of as much as 96 percent.
compared to: well most of these 'glitches' have been ironed out. But when the stories were fresh, did CNN cover them?

Yushchenko's campaign complained that Yanukovych supporters were given absentee ballots and bused out of their native regions and back again so they could vote twice. Yanukovych's side, meanwhile, said some stations were refusing to provide absentee ballots in violation of the law.
compared to: many stories of voters being disenfranchised.
see:
http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=date&selectstate=ALL&selectproblemtype=Provisional+ballots




Send that back to CNN and then ask them why Ukranians get coverage on their 'irregularities' while the US doesn't. Is Ukraine more important than the US now? Why wasn't I informed?

[Roger_Otip]

17. in a parallel universe CNN article

might look something like this - http://www.legjoints.com/AmericanElectionFraud/cnn-ukraine-usa.html

[gorbal]

18. Yes lets do a mass mailing of CNN now.

Why does Oberman have to get al the love, cute as he is?

[gorbal]

19. Here are the various cnn addresses-

Wala.

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/

which ones should we use?

[meatsack]

20. lol

hahaha that's awesome.
(need to do a find & replace on the locations & statistics as well ;) )

[Bread and Circus]

21. They are on NYTimes online front page --- we're not.

[masshole1979]

23. you think ukraine's mainstream press would have been all over this one?

Maybe they were, but it seems unlikely that the local press would be handling it as a case of such blatant fraud the way the foreign media are handling it.

The problem is that we aren't on the cover of the Kiev Times, or The Times of London, El Pais, La Jornada, Le Monde, Toronto Star...or any other major foreign press.

Who is watching US?

[Roger_Otip]

26. New York Times as it should be

http://www.legjoints.com/AmericanElectionFraud/nyt-ukraine-usa_1.html

be the media!

[tngledwebb]

29. Hope someone is. But world media seems very quiet on this.

On the other hand it's a good bet that the EU, the UK, indeed most industrialized govt's and intelligence services ARE watching this country closely, and can sense the the truth about this and the past several elections and/or assassinations. They must also know a lot about 9/11 plus what the hell has happened here for the past twenty to forty years. ( Some must have been co-opted and corrupted by our agencies during that time- UK? Israel?)

But most are waiting and watching, and thinking very hard about the weakness and strength of the dollar, the power of the US military, the corruption of our media, peak oil and related energy issues, and especially the absolute evil of the present regime.

What should they do? What can we do?

[99Pancakes]

25. This should be a US article

Change the country, and it should have been us. Exactly this article.
Wuzzup?
:wtf:

[tngledwebb]

27. Would have been a US article only if

Dems and Kerry stole the election.

[99Pancakes]

31. Funny!!

Good Point. You're soooo right!

[tngledwebb]

32. Thanks, 99Pancakes!

Btw your name is funny too, not to mention fattening. :hi:

[99Pancakes]

35. On a low carb nutritional plan

Lost the weight I want, but can only have carbs once a week if I want to maintain my figure.......so, I dream of pancakes, my favorite food (next to cookies). Hence the name.

:hi:

[breadandwine]

28. FLASH BULLETIN! Blogger calls march on Fox NOW!

Combined protest against Fox and the rigged election —

The objective is specifically to challenge the wall of silence on the rigged election by news outlets like Fox and make a breakthrough —

Please spread this around, check it out and kick it —

A blogger has posted an extremely detailed, specific call to protest the rigged election AND the suppression of the truth ABOUT the rigged election by Fox News — a combined event mass march protest to be held in New York City — AT — Fox headquarters on 6th Avenue —

Main protest chant —

“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

Nobody thinks of marching against a news organization in the streets. This is going to be a shot heard round the world.

Very comprehensive protest plan with very helpful travel details, the works —

See blog on this,

“A Call To March On Fox —

For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!” —

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

Discussion thread in General Discussion Forum — please help keep this kicked —

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2688242

“A Call To March Against The Rigged Election”

Please spread these links around to help us organize this.

Please join that discussion there and help keep it kicked. Marching on Fox starts at post 117. But read the whole discussion. And read the blog. Discussion also discusses an earlier blog on marching against the rigged election and media. Second blog being discussed is on a specific, detailed call to march on Fox specifically as a key initial part of this protest against the rigged election. Fox is a key ENABLER of the rigged election. They’d never get away with election rigging on such a vast scale if it weren’t for news suppressers/distorters like Fox. Read both blogs.

Tremendously detailed comprehensive blog —

It gives the exact location in New York City of all of Rupert Murdoch’s empire, New York Post, Fox News, News Corporation (Murdoch’s big parent company — it owns almost everything else he’s got) — all of that — it’s all in a single building on 6th Avenue between 47th Street and 48th Street in mid-Manhattan. Murdoch’s own office is in the building too. We can be chanting against him right outside his window. All their offices are not on very high floors either — as low as the second floor — they’ll see and hear us and have to pass us on the way in. All those blow-hard Fox talking heads lying about the election — we’ll be in direct shouting matches with them as they come and go. And Fox itself is on the SECOND Floor. How good is their studio soundproofing in there????? Everybody at Fox is going to be bitching that they can’t get any work done. There’s no way they can hush this up.

Since it’s a vicious circle — news organizations like Fox suppress our protests, making them seem futile, therefore the proposal is to combine objectives and protest Fox AND the rigged election TOGETHER right outside Murdoch’s building and tie the two evils together — “Murdoch suppresses the truth about the rigged election!” — and invite other New York news organizations, many of whom DETEST Murdoch, to cover it. (You didn’t know New York news people and news executives hate Murdoch? Blog goes into that a lot.)

Blog has many links to anti-Murdoch resources and video of Bill O’Reilly telling everybody to shut up, shut up, shut up, over and over. What a sewer rat! Right on camera! He looks really mean and drunk in one of the film clips. Jack Daniels? And he’s on camera hotly lecturing us, “It is our duty as all loyal Americans to shut up.” The video nails him good — and Fox. Blog gives other video links too.

Tired of being told to shut your trap? Open it. March against Fox and the rigged election in New York City.

But the idea is to put it all together, to protest and denounce Fox outside their offices for leading the COVER-UP of the election heist. It’s a shot across the bow to the rest of the media that they better start telling the truth about the election, or they’ll get protests like the one at Fox. All the national news media are based in Manhattan. They can’t say this protest was too out of the way to get to.

Blog also has links to downloadable anti-Fox flyers, petitions and other resources against Fox that could be distributed at the protest march.

Blog goes into tremendous detail about the strategy, the advantages of starting protests in New York as opposed to other cities (huge liberal population would augment people coming from out of town), and it’s the news media capital of the world. Very friendly terrain. New York Democratic congressmen are demanding investigation of the stolen election. No rednecks in the population or the government, no paranoid security apparatus like you have in D.C.

Blog includes complete “mother lode” total orientation guide to using New York subways with downloadable maps you can enlarge, how to use mass transit to get from Amtrak’s Penn Station to the march, how to use mass transit to get from the airports to the march.

Let’s make it happen!

Keep kicking that thread so everyone will hear of this!

[Kellis]

33. WHy oh WHY

Aren't Americans for Democracy in the Street like the Ukranians!!???

Damnit!!!The election was stolen!America is being over taken by fascist dictators who want to turn our country upside down into a theocracy!!!

Shit!They always asked why the Germans didn't do something to stop Hitler....I hope in 10 yrs they aren't asking us the samething about AWOL FUCKFACE CHIMP the Criminal!

[tngledwebb]

34. You think we have 10 years?

The evil-doers will be finished with their 'work' in two.