Evidence of Fraud vs. Recounts - which is more effective?

[New Earth]

(i tried not to make the title misleading, hope it isn't.)

I've been wondering - only in speaking of the election being overturned (Kerry wins) - I'm thinking evidence of fraud would have nothing to do with overturning an election, only prosecution for those who were involved. Of course in regard to fraud, that is for the 'sanctity' of democracy.

Actual recounts of the votes seem to be the only thing that could actually swing the election. It's frustrating that we have no legal information to figure this all out - and the only law that's been found so far is the one in the Constituion that says a state who's voters make a up a certain portion of the population are disenfranchised, that the number of representatives for that state will decrease.

That still means nothing, in regard to overturning an election.

can someone help me think this through?

[smartvoter]

1. I think you're right.

In order to overturn the election, there needs to be mathematical proof that Kerry won that would have to come in the form of a recount or revote.

On the fraud front, there could be impeachment if it was shown to lead all the way up to Bush, but it would not put Kerry in office.

[New Earth]

2. i think both are equally important

even reports of disenfranchisement, voter suppression, lack of equipment, etc. are nothing that will 'overturn' anything. just a pile of lawsuits. I do hope regardless of how this all turns out that nothing gets overlooked.

Even this evidence that Jeff Fisher supposedly has isn't going to do anything to change this election. Investigations like that take months and months to evolve and sometimes years to come to a conclusion.

I guess for those who truly are determined to see that Kerry won and get him in the White House need to focus more on recounts and numbers.

I think i'm just finally thinking realistically here. The only thing we have to depend on for Kerry is recounts.

[smartvoter]

3. I agree.

And, at least so far, he hasn't jumped in demanding them.

[unpossibles]

4. hmm. I think both (all three) are equally important.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041119/ap_on_go_ot/electronic_voting

sadly, they have us over a log. Even if they cheated, it will be hard to prove and harder to convict. Not that it will stop me from fighting them.

[smartvoter]

6. Agreed.

I think the chances of flipping the election are very remote, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't fight, even if it is to prevent future shenanigans. And, if nothing else, we've raised enough questions to help counter the "mandate" claim (though how you can claim a mandate when half the country voted you out is another story...)

[strike4democracy_com]

5. i'd think fraud, would give us...better chance..

If there's fraud...

and it actually gets reported, i mean if we have correspondence letters between, Bush, Rove and Diebold about - the election...results being 'guaranteed' for Bush ...

well we can impeach Bush's whole cabinet, or throw out the republican campaign, and give kerry the win, ....isn't cheating a reason for guaranteed loss?

and if we do find out about fraud and nothing happens, well- i for one would fight back, and i mean w/ force, - we need to start a Liberal Rifle Association, .... maybe if a bunch of liberals started buying guns, they would actually start putting regulations...i mean seriously who wants a bunch of 'crazy liberals' w/ assault weapons LOL....

reverse psychology anyone? lol

But seriously...i know i mention this guys name you'll all say i'm a simpleton, but John Titor, lol ... i don't buy that he's from the future.... however... the thought of an upcoming civil war, or new revolution, has crossed my mind, many times, even before i heard about titor.... what's everyone else think...

the only problem, is....people...get used to their 'comforts'... and they just let... it happen, - i'd fight....if...there were an army.... even a small one... of opposition....

even have some good ideas.... funny how i'm against war...generally....but i'm for a civil war....we need a bunch of changes to be made to our country though, it was meant to be run by the people, not by the rich people.... and corporations....

I'm seriously thinking of putting out an ebook, entitled - If you've got Ballz - Ideas to attack the administration...and fight for our rights...

basically a civil disobedience guide to ...cause the most damage... writing a book like that (as long as i don't include ways to build bombs n stuff...) shouldn't land me n hot water...

just general 'targets' - like Walmarts, etc... what do you think? am i too radical?.. are we not to the point where action like those are required?.. i think...the breaking point is close....when the draft comes up -- which it will (who here seriously thinks we're not going to invade iran, soon...i'm bettin' before march... and i bet they pull a 9/11 ...on us..by they i mean the administration making it look like iran did the job though)....

I for one, am joining the draft boards, and i recommend all of you to do the same - and .. if there is a draft, well lets make sure the only ones who are drafted are the ones who voted for Bush, and their sons/daughters, because seriously they deserve it...

and when all the republicans are dead from world war 3, there isn't no way n hell they could cheat enough to stay in office...

I'm also starting a 'peaceful objectors to war' registration on my website - it'll be a paper registration w/ actual signatures, -and we'll keep a file of everyone who wants to be 'on the rolls'....- each person promises to attend at least 1 peace rally, or some kind of protest....when they sign the paper (of course it'll have to be a 'on your honor' kinda thing...

my goal is to get 100% of democrats, green party ..etc...anti-war ppl...on this thing, and make sure that the ONLY people sent to iraq, and iran, are the fools who voted for our current leaders....

i rant sometimes, n yeah, ramble a lot...just some more of my ideas,

[New Earth]

8. of course every little bit helps

Statistics will help locate the potential of fraud, but they literally prove nothing.

Finding the fraud will be proof that the election was invalid. (But then what?)

Recounting (correctly and fairly) will prove (at least more accurately) the outcome of the election.

I'm just a little worried about too many peopel getting excited over statistics.

[Carolab]

7. If there is evidence of fraud

a contest can be launched on that basis alone and recounts then ensue. You must also check the precinct signature records and tally sheets to ensure that the totals listed there match the total number of ballots and votes accounted for and whether or not these figures jibe with the counts posted by the SOS. It is my understanding that FOIA requests have been issued for any and all records.