Why do most of those who fault the Exit Polls have under 20 posts?

[TruthIsAll]

Is it my imagination or am I just a coincidence buff?

Are we touching a raw nerve by using common sense and some basic mathematics?

Kerry was winning. Everyone said so. Tweety. Karen Hughes told Bush he was going to lose. But then Karl Rove took announced that the exit polls were wrong. How the hell can any one individual make such a statement?

And then it began. The numbers started to fall off Kerry's ledger. Like magic. This is not tinfoil. This is living in Bizarroville.

Why is it that most long-time DUers seem to agree that there's a smell of rotting fish in this election? Don't get me wrong: there are many newbies who are also highly suspicious.

But others with mostly low posts seem to come around only after an election is stolen. They descend on DU to tell us that it's just our conspiratorial imaginations working overtime.

It happened in 2002. It's happening again.

Flame me if you must. But I speak the TRUTH.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Guess........... n/t

[SeveneightyWhoa]

2. Also, why do..

..people who come here to make extremely 'positive' posts about Dan Rather have under 30 posts?

Case in point: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1014727#1014813

[life_long_dem]

3. Maybe your a "coincidence theorist". LOL n/t

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. Don't waste you time.

meanwhile, see this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x70536

I am thinking our great performance in the Philly suburbs disproves the notion that Kerry didn't sell to the suburban/exurban voter.
I mean, Kerry did fantastic there, and my premise for the Pa. study is: If in Pa., why not Ohio?

[Jersey Devil]

5. Does great wisdom come with a high post count?

I've lurked here mostly for about 3 years or so, posting just here and there until this fall when I began to post more often, and have noticed that every once in a while (actually, to be more accurate, quite often) some posters with high post numbers attempt to intimidate those with low post numbers, as though great wisdom is gifted to them by the cosmic forces with every 1,000 posts and those with low post numbers should automatically be suspects and their ideas and thoughts discounted.

Frankly I think that kind of attitude smacks of "elitism" and simply feeds the stereotypical view of Democrats by right wingers. So, taking your logic in a different direction, "Is it my imagination or am I just a coincidence buff" in thinking that there is a conspiracy among those DUers with high post counts to make the average Democrat/progressive look like an elitist?

[TruthIsAll]

6. No one said that. But it's fairly obvious what is happening.

Nothing is black and white. This is not a universal TRUTH.

But I've been around DU long enough to spot them. Sorry to be so blunt. But it's a fact. They come here with a mission. There really is nothing new about this.

I believe most DUers agree with me. But I am just speaking for myself. There are DUers who have been around a long time who may feel that the election was not stolen. They have shown their passion on other issues.

Its one thing to raise legitimate questions; it's another to throw strawmen in the way to avoid the real questions. Sort of like the talking heads on cable. They avoid asking the the questions that should be asked. To this day they still insist that Bush won FL in 2000. And they never talk about the 175,000 spoiled punched card votes, 75% of which would have gone to Gore.

[Jersey Devil]

8. Sometimes it is good to have your opinions tested

Frankly I think some of the posters here have been so cloistered and protected that a little tugging of their chains might be a healthy event for them.

I have little regard for those who come just to disrupt, but I always welcome a real debate with someone who disagrees with me. It sharpens your arguments and keeps you on your toes.

So it is no big deal to me.

[TruthIsAll]

12. Debate is one thing; throwing dishonest strawman is another.

Look, no one has all the facts. But some facts are so obvious they should be a given. Like Repubs cheat. They lie. They smear. They are hypocrits.

Not to say Dems are perfect. I find the Clinton's very frustrating, as I do Kerry.

It's gotten to the point that there just a few Democrats who I still respect: Gore, Kucinich, Dean, Waxman, et al. And Jimmy Carter...

[tinanator]

55. you forgot murder, overthrow and enslave

tax dodging and treasury looting also

[tngledwebb]

53. Check the 9/11 forums ( in archived forums )

for similarities in style and substance. Now there are two big internet 'CT's' these people have to keep up with.

[Carl Brennan]

18. All TIA did was ask a question. Jeez, enought on the hyperbole.

[reality_bites]

7. You must be a coincidence buff.

I have been critisizing your math. I have a BS Mathematics and I tutor college level statistics. I have an interest in statistics and my interest lead me to DU - I was reading a post in a statistics blog related to the election. In the article, there was a link to a DU post and I clicked it. I started reading DU threads and found a few of your posts that simply do not employ sound reasoning. After a few days, I couldn't stand it anymore because a lot of time is being spent by you and others following this dead end argument. So, I joined DU and began trying to undo your damage. I wanted Kerry to win too, but your work thus far does not advance anything; although a lot of people seem to be energized by it.

By the way, at some point in the past, you too had fewer than 20 posts. Did that make what you wrote then less valid ? Of course it didn't. Why then does this thread even exist ?

[TruthIsAll]

13. No sound reasoning? I have three degrees in Math, two Masters.

You've come to DU to undo the damage I've done? What a joke. You are a math tutor? Whoopee. Something tells me you're a novice. Just a feeling I have.

If you are coming to DU with your guns drawn to get me into a shootout, you better make sure the guns are fully loaded. I've done more computer modeling than you could ever dream of. Probably because I've been around a lot longer than you.

So don't try to pull that shit about coming to DU to thrash my work. Because you will never win that fight. Do you have a Don Quixote complex? Righting the wrongs of that ogre TruthIsAll? Sorry. Got to laugh.

Professors trained at MIT and Berkeley essentially agree with my approach as far as the Exit polls are concerned. You don't. I like their company.

[reality_bites]

24. Novice ? Yes...

Novice. Yes, I'm guilty. But your mistakes are elementary so I will continue to critique your work.

No amount of bragging about your credentials will make exit polls reliable. Your whole workup relies on the notion that exit polls are reliable indicators of election outcome. They are not. In another post you claim that the results in 3 German elections prove that exit polls are reliable, but anyone can use Google to find past exit polls right here in the United States that are way off from the official results. Anyone can use Google to find such examples.

There are plenty of people in other DU threads that also take you to task for your sloppiness, some giving the same reasons I am giving you. Your reply is always the same: YOU'RE AN IDIOT AND I AM RIGHT, or something to that effect.

You may have noticed that my original post was civil, as is this one. Your reply is not. Why is that ? None of the sentences in your reply strike me as something an intelligent person who is confident with there argument would say. Many others in other DU thread have critiqued you and you never respond to their valid questions either. You never make further arguments accept to say that you are correct, so there.

You say that "Professors trained at MIT and Berkeley essentially agree with my approach as far as the Exit polls are concerned" Well, there is a Berkeley study that I have read here:

http://ucdata.berkeley.edu/new_web/VOTE2004/election04_WPwappendices.pdf

but it says absolutely nothing about exit polls. It does not rely on the accuracy of exit polls in any way. In fact, the phrase 'exit poll' does not appear anywhere in the paper. So, you must know of another Berkeley study I am unaware of. So, please show me the Berkeley study that you say supports your "approach as far as the Exit polls are concerned". I would really like to see it.

There are 4 MIT studies that cover the 2004 election in general. the only study I know of that addresses the exit polls is this one:

http://www.vote.caltech.edu/Reports/VotingMachines3.pdf

However, it concludes "that there is no evidence based on exit poll results to conclude that there was fraud in the 2004 Presidential election." which is the opposite of your conclusion. Again, there must be a MIT study I haven't read yet. Please provide the link so I can evaluate how it supports your "approach as far as the Exit polls are concerned".

Please explain how you can say that exit polls are accurate when history shows many times that they are not accurate. Please support your reply with evidence. here is my evidence:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005178.php

If my evidence is wrong, prove it wrong. Don't just call me an idiot, then start another thread so I can't find you. Oh, and please respond civilly if you can. By the way I voted for Kerry and I completely agree with the results put forth in the Berkeley study - Fraud. It's not your goal that I am disagreeing with, it's your methodology.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old and In the Way]

29. They have become unreliable.

Ever since Republicans have been cooking the actual vote.

Here's my statistics. 1/2 million more people voted for Gore in 2000.
Bush allows 3000 Americans to die on 9/11; lies to get us into the Iraqi quagmire, killing 1200 more Americans; and turns a $450BB surplus into a $500BB (and deepening ) deficit. For this, they want me to believe 3-1/2 MM more people voted for Bush in this election?

Nope, I guess I haven't drunk enough kool-aid yet to believe that people would lie on the exit pool data to say they voted for Kerry when they really voted for Bush.

[indigo11153]

41. Exit polls

have been right before 2000.

[Horse with no Name]

80. I understand now what you are saying

But the problem is that there are so many new people in here struggling to attain some type of reputation who really just want to help.
So when one of the freepers do come in here and ask to investigate certain things (those of us who do not know any better and just want to help)we start investigating which is why I believe it looks like a bunch of people chasing their tails with low post counts posting to each other. Most of us pale in comparison to some of these statisticians and mathematicians and are willing to do grunt work if asked. I'm just a 41 year old nurse who has started my company..the extent of my math experience is figuring out correct dosages of medication to give my patients--it doesn't mean I don't want to help, just not sure how.
Not sure if that makes any sense...but I will probably just sit back and watch until the freepers are identified so that I don't get hauled down that slippery slope.
BTW--I think TIA rocks and love reading his work. :bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[Chasing Dreams]

30. There is at least one sound exit poll discrepancy study

posted by Ignatzmouse, "Unofficial Audit of NC Election: Comprehensive Case for Fraud"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x45003

The author provides a VERY convincing case that Presidential early/absentee voting was (1) 1/3 of total votes cast, (2) these early results were similar to election day NC exit polls, (3) day of election votes were 10+ points different from election polls and early voting, (4) in ALL races on the ballot in NC except President and Senate, there were only minor differences between early voting and election day voting patterns.

Reality_bites - please read the Ignatzmouse analysis and provide an alternate explanation, if you can, to the one that makes sense: the NC exit polls were correct and the election day vote was hacked in the presidential and senate races.

[gandalf]

63. Sound: Yes. But not exit poll analysis!

He analyzed the discrepancies between early / absentee votes and election day votes.

Scientific exit poll study:

http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/Expldiscrpv00oPt1.pdf

[TruthIsAll]

31. Point out ONE mistake in my analysis. Just one.

And be specific. No generalities.

You are sadly misinformed. Do your homework and don't just suck up the propaganda that you cite. On the other hand, if your just trying to disrupt us, congratulations. You're doing a good job.

You are quoting the Caltech study? They have already stepped back from their conclusions. They did NOT consider the 4pm exit polls; they based their analysis on the final CNN-manipulated exit polls. Now they are backtracking. Get your facts straight.

Read about the Caltech Flip Flops here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/14/03617/399

Read this. It will even shock you. Or maybe not.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KEE411A.html

Read the just-updatedProfessor Freeman paper:
http://organikrecords.com/corporatenewslies/Exitpoll%20discrep%20v00o.pdf

That should keep you busy. Do your homework.

Oh, one other thing. You say exit polls are not reliable. One question. If they are not reliable, why are they still being used? Over the last 25 years. All over the world. Got an answer for that?

Do yourself a favor. If you have nothing constructive to offer, just lurk. It will save us a lot if unnecessary bandwith.

[goclark]

77. Get um Truth Is All

One thing I admire about those that have been here a long time is that they have studied the issues. They have read the threads over a long period of time and have demonstrated their passion.

The new posters have not been pr oven. It's like being a freshman in college. You can be as smart as Einstein but don't know where all the buildings are located.

When major issues are being discussed,like voter fraud,it is hard to listen to those that are saying, "wWe can't beat the Bush family, let's wimp out and be safe."

That attitude really steams me when it is included in a thread that is meaningful. Maybe they can start a Wimp thread on that issue.

[Sideways]

50. Philosopy WTF Is That ? You List It As Your Hobby BTW

You are a clod and a fraud. Get off our board nobody here likes you.

Philosopy....hahahahahahahahahah

[ParanoidPat]

72. Deleted

OOPS! :evilgrin:

[ahyums]

54. it's my understanding that these exit poll discrepancies everyone

is talking about refer to already weighted data which was released, so that last link at least is completely meaningless

[The Flaming Red Head]

60. Exit polls are reliable predictors of election fraud (one more time)

Premier Victor in Ukraine Vote; Abuses Are Seen
NYT

By C. J. CHIVERS


The victory for the prime minister, by a margin of nearly 3 percentage points, that was given in official results diverged sharply from a range of surveys of voters at polling places that gave the opposition as much as an 11-point lead. Opposition organizers pushed for protest and mass action.

[Chimpanzee]

67. FREEPER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[helderheid]

78. Kathy Dopp has a rebuttal

Kathy Dopp who crunched the Florida numbers has this to say:

FYI, Our group has thoroughly rebutted all the groups of political
scientists who have tried to debunk our work, and who seem not to even
have read our analyses judging from their criticisms, and whose own
rebuttals to ours have neglected to take the scientific procedures that were necessary into account like we did.

Our new rebuttal to the vote.MITCaltech cricism of our work is here:
http://ustogether.org/election04/mitteldorf/MITCaltechvtp-response.htm

And this page thoroughly rebuts the Cornell, Harvard, Stanford critiques
of our work:
http://ustogether.org/election04/dopp/dopp_response.html

So far, I have not seen any statisticians or mathematicians criticize our work.

[Chasing Dreams]

25. New here: MOUNTAINS of evidence support STOLEN election theory, BUT

any organization that acts cliquish or antagonizes new members will have difficulty expanding, to say the least.

You and others have done a wonderful job of getting the information out, especially the North Carolina and Berkeley/Florida stories. I have been conducting regression analysis part-time for a living for 20+ years, and the Berkeley study is basically IRREFUTABLE unless someone can show that some other variable that is highly correlated with electronic voting machines was left out of the analysis. It has been several days and the study stands taller than ever.

Still, TIA, I am disappointed that you rushed to conclusions about new DUers based on anecdotes and coincidences. Why not poll here about fraud beliefs, ask respondents to provide posting history, and let the stats tell you something before you go on the attack?:)

[Old and In the Way]

32. Welcome aboard!

Hope you'll go through TIA's work here. The methodology for his/her predictions was pretty rigorous. And it tracked impressively well to the exiit polling data.

Understand that there aren't many places like DU on the internet. We've become a major thorn in the RW media's side and we attract 'em like moths to a lonely light on a mid-summer's night.

[Chasing Dreams]

37. Thanks for the kind welcome, and

I'd be happy to take a look at others' work. That's why I'm here: on a mission of information discovery and dissemination (and yes, I may perform some regressions too down the road...)

Old and In the Way, I'm not sure where to look for TIA's stuff, and could use some directions. As a friend of mine used to say, "I sure don't know what I'm goin for...but I'm gonna go for it for sure"

[Old and In the Way]

43. Lemme tell yeah, TIA has all kinds of links organized by his/her

work.

Here's a good recent one with some data. I'm sure TIA will get you loads more that are relevant to the statistical analysis. TIA has some public domain webpages that have these models as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=67560

[Virginian]

75. Hint: TIA is TruthIsAll. Welcome to DU Chasing Dreams

N/T

[ParanoidPat]

73. Rush to conclusions based on "acecdotes and coincidences"?.......

.......There's a laugh for ya'! :evilgrin:

I'm sure it couldn't be years of previous experiences and observations.
Nope couldn't be that. ;-)

[mcg]

22. it's spelled "criticizing" also it's "sue" not "soo" (prior post of yours)

[Old and In the Way]

23. Interesting.

So where's the mathematical beef? Being a mathematician, please lay out where the problems are with TIA's model? From what I could see, TIA's predictions followed the exit polling pretty damn accurately.

I suspect I'll be waiting a long time.

[ClassWarrior]

56. Energizing people doesn't accomplish anything??

If you wanted JK to win too, where were you during the election? Free Republic? Please don't try to save us from ourselves. We've been doing just fine without you.

NGU.

[2Design]

9. rofl

[DARE to HOPE]

10. Exit polls are THE STANDARD in the whole world for honest elections...

One of my early experiences in grad school was being asked to be the poll taker for the local CBSnews station at Chicago's 55th and MLK Dr. Still had lever machines. Whew! Hushed and awed as they closed the doors to count. People were friendly for the most part, waving "hi" to the local news celebrities through me.

Since that time I have known, through study and experience, how reliable exit polling is. ACTIONABLE PROOF is the distance between the exit polling data, and the tabulated votes. Which is WHY they keep pulling, changing, hiding the exit numbers. Then they set CalTech out there to dispute the one thing ALL STATISTICIANS KNOW! (See Jeff Fisher posts about CalTech's Rep connections.)

The exit polls alone, assuming we can absolutely pin down that data (I knew when they fired VNS, we'd be in trouble!) ACTUALLY PROVE UNDENIABLE FRAUD. The rest of the on-the-ground work, by BBV, voter testimonies, and the recounts, are seeking the mechanism(s.)

[Carl Brennan]

20. Good point! You nailed it.

Thanks for the work.

[Cadence]

11. I've noticed that too.

I'm new myself but I wish they would stop because it makes it more difficult to get to the threads that have actual info.

I'm not just highly suspicious, I'm convinced that they altered the numbers to falsely win that's why I had to join because I can't live out in bizarro world alone I'll go insane.

I'm grateful for all the data you present truthisall keep up the good work and don't be afraid of all newbies but do tell some of them to fuck off because I'm noticing the same thing.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Not all low post count people are freepers, but

all freepers have low post counts.

I think that's what you are trying to say, TIA. :-)

And, of course, they must attack the correlations between exit polls and fraud....otherwise they'd have to admit the truth that Republicans are crooks who game the system. I guess they just like to identify with the un-American Party.

[TruthIsAll]

16. That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

I will say this. These guys are smart. That's what pisses me off. You'd think they would spend less energy in disrupting and more in trying to uncover the truth. But I guess if your a freeper, cognitive dissonance is a fact of life.

[Niche]

45. "Guys are smart" but not compassionate...

also, I think they hate being ignored. Use crafty short sentences, they get really confused. Confused too if you ask them why they are liberal? They are filled with facts but no substance.

[tngledwebb]

64. And some f******s have high post counts.

See 9/11 forums in archives.

[hangloose]

15. If they can find time to send two agents to a toy store in Oregon

and hassle the owner to remove a item off the shelf, then they can also infiltrate this blog.
If they have balls enough to steal the election, then they can spread disinformation on this blog.
If they can lie about WMD, then they can lie to you and me on this blog. If they can orchestrate 911 then, they can certainly cast doubt as an anonymous handle on this blog.

Trust, they can do anything they want.

[nolabels]

21. I haven't seen them doing any cartwheels yet

http://www.skatedc.org/pix/stunts/pages/matt-cartwheel.html

[truehawk]

17. Two catagories

1. Scared shitless Democrats. If they understand the data and take it seriously they have to plan and take action. Pretty disturbing stuff, would interfere with jobs and cruises. Personally I think that these people are in the vast majority. They are defending a reality where they can trust the government and the elections and anything else threatens them too much to be borne.

2. And then there are the Freepers who what to sow disention. As if we did not manufacture enough of our own.

I must have had 10 posts deleted argueing with this guy who kept argueing that the election polls were not reliable, that early voting and the absentees favored Democrats and were not a reliable sample for president, even though they corrolated well for all races EXCEPT president and senator, that Democrats in NC did not turn out to vote on election day and a lot of other things that he could not have known from Ohio.

[JohnnyCougar]

46. You mean "Gracchi"?

That guy was on Daily Kos, too, arguing points that just weren't true.

[Starlight]

19. I hear Rush was talking nonstop about "those crazy conspiracy theorists"

immediately after the election. A Dem friend of mine who listens to him told me about this. She was unaware of the BBV & other fraud issues and she couldn't understand why he kept harping on & on & on about what was supposed to be a non-issue. Obviously this was distributed as a "talking point" in an attempt to discredit the researchers. I suspect the trolls are here on a similar mission.

[alittlelark]

26. Uh, cuz they're desperate

and it's the same 15-30 people. Most of them not very bright.

[Sodium Pentothal]

27. TIA, you do such good work BUT

but you have horrible people skills. You present this work, but you can not communicate to us forummites. It's like your a crazy hermit guru who knows the truth, but just has trouble confirming people's questions/doubts. I respect your fantastic work, but after the original post, its normally downhill for you. (not a flame!)


BTW, most of the new people I have run into the last 3 weeks have come onto here specifically looking for a place to gather and regroup, to go after these bastards! Your post sounds paranoid to me, when I see all the new faces that are so eager to get into the work and detail, to help get the truth out there! This place is sanctuary from this Bush hell, and it has gathered many of us "moths" to its light.

[Old and In the Way]

35. That's because we've been fighting this battle for 4 years.

Excuse some of the older posters here but we've been through lots of these freeper infestations: after the stolen election, after 9/11, after 2002 stolen mid-terms, the run-up to the Iraqi War, the primaries, now the election. And I think this is the worst, perhaps because there is so much at stake.

As a newbie, you come to this forum relatively fresh. If you're still here in 3 years, remind me to ask you if you have a different perspective on things.

:-)

[ClassWarrior]

57. Us "forrummites" (is that a freeper word?) who have been here...

...throughout the election have had no problem understanding TIA's magnificent work. Where were you? And why are you trying to now sow doubt about the work of one of our most steadfast troopers?? ("crazy hermit guru... you sound paranoid... etc...")

NGU.

[Sodium Pentothal]

66. :rollseyes:

Oh come on. That is exactly the attitude I am talking about. The first word out of your mouth is "freeper." You didn't even read my post, you just wanted to out the torches! Look, IMO TIA isn't always the nicest guy to people who look at his numbers and have questions. I am so happy I found this place, I read all these topics and hope something comes out of all this effort. But quick, call me a freeper!

The guy above you actually had a good post. Something that informed, instead of trying to disenfranchise a new generation of DUer, the ones who came here to learn the truth, how W. "won" the election.


THE FACT IS, the dam word freeper gets thrown around so much, everyone is f'ing paranoid. However, in light of the reasonable reply above you, I can understand some of it. But then guys like you post.... sigh...

[ParanoidPat]

76. I read your entire post and as a "long term" DUer.......

......my impression of your post left me thinking the F word! :evilgrin:

[patomime]

33. I'm a newbie....

and I'm with you. There have been too many indicators that the election "smells fishy". The "over-votes" in Cayuhoga Co., Ohio, (92,000) spoiled punch cards that amount to almost the same number (93,000 at last count -correllation between the two?) - and reports in one Ohio county of 25% "no votes" for president) along with voter suppression and voter intimidation tactics.

Also - on another thread --- and I'm not a great mathmetician -- but, you were talking about exit polls. The facts have been widely reported that in e-voting counties - exit polling ran rapant in favor of Bush (both in Florida and Ohio e-voting counties), as late at 6:00 p.m., that previously earlier in the day showed as much as 6-7% advantages for Kerry.

No - there's too much evidence of different kinds of fishiness here to ignore. Let people say we're tinfoil - I don't care. The mainstream media the night of the election was enough to indicate problems for me.

[bleever]

34. I came after the election was stolen. I came looking for the

truth as I knew it to be.

I found it here. The whole thing doesn't make sense, to those who belong to the reality-based community.

It was stolen; my gut says so, the evidence says so, impartial analysis of the numbers and statistical probability says so, history says so, and people I have learned to respect say so.

It's my birthday. 41 years ago JFK was killed on my third birthday. I've been thinking about these things for a long time.

This stinks. It's an insult to the Founding Fathers, to the Constitution, and to the Rule of Law.

Guess what? I'm nobody.

And I approve this message.

[Old and In the Way]

36. So do I.....

Welcome bleever!

"The whole thing doesn't make sense, to those who belong to the reality-based community." That makes a whole lotta sense to me.

[bleever]

40. Thanks.

P.S.: I've got in on vinyl, cassette, and CD.

[Niche]

38. If I may... I'm new but I have read for several months...

and Truth is All is right. Lately there are these posts that are filled with narcissistic spew and other posters will take it in and sometimes agree ... content: mainly Snatch is not disliked (at all! He's actually defended) and there seems to be a divisive suggestion to break Dems up or "MOVE ON." There is a zero sum game going on and they are definitely playing to win here... just my thoughts as an on looker. So glad to hear you kicking ass TRUTH!

[Sodium Pentothal]

39. You can not fault some Dems

for wanting to move on. The depth of this fraud are too mind numbing for many people who didn't see it coming. I agree, some may be plants, or saying exactly what we dont want to hear. However, I know some Dems in real life that refuse to believe something so hideous, widespread, and audacious could actually happen without them knowing. They still TRUST the MSM, the blessed fools.

[ClassWarrior]

58. Yes you can.

Because if they know the truth and still want to move on, they're not Dems.

NGU.

[Sodium Pentothal]

65. You say its the truth

as if its already been written down in the history books. Fact is, its not gone reported and only a fraction of people know any of these facts uncovered. Not all Dems will dive in deep enough into the Reynolds Wrap to really believe all of this.

[Tweed]

42. Leave it to T&A to start a witch hunt

:eyes: Poor old T&A

[RevCheesehead]

44. Coincidence? No - Agent Mike apparently has many friends.

Anyone who was actually watching the returns knows that there was a sudden and dramatic jump. Many of you smart people began saying "don't trust the exit polls."

I don't understand statistics and poll data (I'm more of an intuit/perceiver). But I trust those who do. And from what I've seen of your posts leading up to the election, you have been consistently on the mark all the way through. It should also be noted that TIA and ZOGBY have been closer than any other poll, pollster, or organization.

Some people here are still learning how to RESPECTFULLY express doubt and/or disagreement. Others come to intentionally disrupt. And it wouldn't surprise me if Agent Mike or Karl Rove has recruited a few to come over and stir things up.

Hi, Agent Mike! :hi:
And, KKKarl, if you're lurking: :spank:

And for you, TIA, and all your hard work: :yourock:

[lamp_shade]

47. Thanks for making that statement

about "recruits". The more I read (and I DO read these threads over and over again) the more I'm convinced of it... two or three posters in particular. I've been thinking that maybe I'm nutty... that it was only obvious to me. I feel better now.

[madmadmad]

48. i have less than 20 posts.

and i know the first exit polls were probably correct, the adjusted exit polls were a sham and the election was somehow rigged. and i'm here to tell you, most people that i know who wouldn't know this site from a hole in their head, agree with us "conspiracy theorists"- there is something rotten happening in the states of america.

and i have been coming to DU since before the election- first i was a lurker, because i was just checking DU out, and once i made my mind up to register, i couldn't because DU wasn't taking new registrants for a period.

i'm sure there are plants here- it goes with the republican policy of disinformation and obfuscation. but not all of us newbies are fake.

some of us are just mad, mad, mad.

[breadandwine]

49. FLASH BULLETIN! Blogger calls march on Fox NOW!

FLASH BULLETIN! Blogger calls march on Fox NOW!

Combined protest against Fox and the rigged election —

The objective is specifically to challenge the wall of silence on the rigged election by news outlets like Fox and make a breakthrough —

Please spread this around, check it out and kick it —

A blogger has posted an extremely detailed, specific call to protest the rigged election AND the suppression of the truth ABOUT the rigged election by Fox News — a combined event mass march protest to be held in New York City — AT — Fox headquarters on 6th Avenue —

Main protest chant —

“Rupert Murdoch, tell the truth! Fascists rigged the voting booth!”

Nobody thinks of marching against a news organization in the streets. This is going to be a shot heard round the world.

Very comprehensive protest plan with very helpful travel details, the works —

See blog on this,

“A Call To March On Fox —

For refusing to tell the truth about the rigged election!” —

http://acalltomarchonfox.blogspot.com/

Discussion thread in General Discussion Forum — please help keep this kicked —

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2688242

“A Call To March Against The Rigged Election”

Please spread these links around to help us organize this.

Please join that discussion there and help keep it kicked. Marching on Fox starts at post 117. But read the whole discussion. And read the blog. Discussion also discusses an earlier blog on marching against the rigged election and media. Second blog being discussed is on a specific, detailed call to march on Fox specifically as a key initial part of this protest against the rigged election. Fox is a key ENABLER of the rigged election. They’d never get away with election rigging on such a vast scale if it weren’t for news suppressers/distorters like Fox. Read both blogs.

Tremendously detailed comprehensive blog —

It gives the exact location in New York City of all of Rupert Murdoch’s empire, New York Post, Fox News, News Corporation (Murdoch’s big parent company — it owns almost everything else he’s got) — all of that — it’s all in a single building on 6th Avenue between 47th Street and 48th Street in mid-Manhattan. Murdoch’s own office is in the building too. We can be chanting against him right outside his window. All their offices are not on very high floors either — as low as the second floor — they’ll see and hear us and have to pass us on the way in. All those blow-hard Fox talking heads lying about the election — we’ll be in direct shouting matches with them as they come and go. And Fox itself is on the SECOND Floor. How good is their studio soundproofing in there????? Everybody at Fox is going to be bitching that they can’t get any work done. There’s no way they can hush this up.

Since it’s a vicious circle — news organizations like Fox suppress our protests, making them seem futile, therefore the proposal is to combine objectives and protest Fox AND the rigged election TOGETHER right outside Murdoch’s building and tie the two evils together — “Murdoch suppresses the truth about the rigged election!” — and invite other New York news organizations, many of whom DETEST Murdoch, to cover it. (You didn’t know New York news people and news executives hate Murdoch? Blog goes into that a lot.)

Blog has many links to anti-Murdoch resources and video of Bill O’Reilly telling everybody to shut up, shut up, shut up, over and over. What a sewer rat! Right on camera! He looks really mean and drunk in one of the film clips. Jack Daniels? And he’s on camera hotly lecturing us, “It is our duty as all loyal Americans to shut up.” The video nails him good — and Fox. Blog gives other video links too.

Tired of being told to shut your trap? Open it. March against Fox and the rigged election in New York City.

But the idea is to put it all together, to protest and denounce Fox outside their offices for leading the COVER-UP of the election heist. It’s a shot across the bow to the rest of the media that they better start telling the truth about the election, or they’ll get protests like the one at Fox. All the national news media are based in Manhattan. They can’t say this protest was too out of the way to get to.

Blog also has links to downloadable anti-Fox flyers, petitions and other resources against Fox that could be distributed at the protest march.

Blog goes into tremendous detail about the strategy, the advantages of starting protests in New York as opposed to other cities (huge liberal population would augment people coming from out of town), and it’s the news media capital of the world. Very friendly terrain. New York Democratic congressmen are demanding investigation of the stolen election. No rednecks in the population or the government, no paranoid security apparatus like you have in D.C.

Blog includes complete “mother lode” total orientation guide to using New York subways with downloadable maps you can enlarge, how to use mass transit to get from Amtrak’s Penn Station to the march, how to use mass transit to get from the airports to the march.

Let’s make it happen!

Keep kicking that thread so everyone will hear of this!

[SueZhope]

51. I'm a newbie who smells the rotting fish

I believe there are to many unanswered ignored questions
about the election. I believe that it was an election based on "good faith"
Any election were the machines have no paper trails with election officials who are heads of campaigns and were BBV is connected to political party's .....is pure insanity and cant be trusted. I never really new about all this till I started researching......I was shocked.. still am

I found this web site from the buzzflash site before Nov 2 . I really thought Kerry won... I was hearing Tucker Carlson say it and others on MSM. Even Novak said that he got of the phone with some high powered republicans and they said they were very nervous about Ohio....then before our eyes...bush won Ohio (kind of) it was all very fishy I tell you Bush early in the day really looked like he new he lost (part of the fix that he would not know it was going to be stolen ) .......then online I started reading the election might have been stolen. I could not even come to DU to read the posts . (high volume so I could not get in) then once the dust settled I was reading everyday. I'm a newbie who is outraged that this is being ignored by the media ..except for Clark Kent.. I mean Keith O......

DU helps me get through it all..One thing that concerns me is I see people attacking each other often.....but that’s what happens when you you put many people in group together chatting.

TruthisAll.......I just wanted to tell you I have been amazed how dedicated you are and am very grateful to you and the many others who have been very involved in finding the truth...Thanks to all from a newbie who believes something is rotten in the USA.

[Frumious B]

52. Irony kills.

It blows my mind that a major story in most of today's newspapers is about allegations that the election in the Ukraine was rigged because the exit polls didn't match the supposed outcome. However, people either don't, can't or are plain unwilling to make the connection. It it just because we're "America" and we're supposed to be above that sort of thing? America is supposed to be above a lot of things, but the chasm between our ideals and our actions has been quite wide on occasion.

It's not as though Bush and Cheney's high ethical standards would preclude them from rigging the election if they had the opportunity and thought they could get away with it. It's a fool's wager to assume that this crew would suddenly start to play fair and honest just because it's an election and elections are supposed to be sacred or something in America.

[Paradise]

59. Presidential-Election Exit-Polls DO NOT lie, they have NEVER lied,

NEVER been wrong, and NEVER took such a drastic direction-change! Presidential-Elections were always able to be predicted early on election day, and always were predicted on election day,
and with confidence.

Posters on DU are, for the most part,
obvious in their motives and intentions, good or bad,
and the majority of us recognize the b*llsh*t ones, just as you do!

(All of the above are in my experience and IMO.)

[Solitaire]

61. Hi TruthIsAll...

I'm a newbie. Just found this site after the election, but I'm with you.

I firmly believe the election was stolen and I'm hoping we somehow prove it.

:)

[gandalf]

62. Working paper on exit polls can be found here:

http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/Expldiscrpv00oPt1.pdf

Written by a Organizational Dynamics reseacher at Pennsylvania University.

I don't know if this guy even posts here on DU...

[Paradise]

68. Newbie, doobie, doo; they're all over this one, too... n/t

[goldengreek]

69. I hadn't noticed.

But I'll take your word for it. Could be a bunch of stragglers, or even part of a larger campaign centrally controlled to knock the wind out of our sails.

It's definitely something I'll keep a watch out for. See if there's any kind of pattern.

[scottxyz]

70. When the trolls come out...

...it means you're onto something.

Keep up the great work TIA!

[lthuedk]

71. The cemetaries are full of felons convicted by circumstantial evidence.

And, there's more than enough to get a prosecution going. Face it, this election was rigged.

The Unpresident needs to form an untransition team.

[peacetalksforall]

74. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that formerly honorable networks

who paid for exit polling and stood by their announcements up until the 21st century....are now saying (with the help of reality diffusers) that exit polling is not accurate.

After every 'crime', there seems to be a plenty who appear (usually in teams) to negate without making a case - and there is a lot of stuff thrown at the wall without making a case. When one negation doesn't work, another is tried, etc.

The problem is that most of us want to unravel what is going on with our country so we read it all, but over time it is quite identifiable because it appears to be a hit and run and change name operation. Mostly, it is time wasting and that's where my resentment surges.

[helderheid]

79. It was stolen. Let me offer some great links

From Kathy Dopp (who crunched the Florida numbers)
FYI, Our group has thoroughly rebutted all the groups of political
scientists who have tried to debunk our work, and who seem not to even
have read our analyses judging from their criticisms, and whose own
rebuttals to ours have neglected to take the scientific procedures that
were necessary into account like we did.

Our new rebuttal to the vote.MITCaltech cricism of our work is here:
http://ustogether.org/election04/mitteldorf/MITCaltechvtp-response.htm

And this page thoroughly rebuts the Cornell, Harvard, Stanford critiques
of our work:
http://ustogether.org/election04/dopp/dopp_response.html

So far, I have not seen any statisticians or mathematicians criticize our
work.

Also see:
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/Story.asp?ID=4688

It is by far the best article I've seen that ties it all together.

Hey, have you noticed we're being dismissed as crazy bloggers? Weren't they the same ones they were relying on to debunk the CBS story?

[wrate]

81. Make the wildest possible guess. n/t

[Moderator]

82. I'm locking this thread

reason:

calls out members with low post counts .