Talking points for the coming storm

[bleever]

OK, let's compile our best thoughts on talking points to frame the issue in a way that makes obvious sense to all red and blue staters.

It shouldn't be hard; after all, we're right. We just need to get our verbal ducks in a row here.

If you've offered ideas on talking points in other threads, please add them here. This should be fun.

For starters, how about: "People take their vote seriously, and expect that officials will give their sober attention to making sure our elections happen in a businesslike way."

[AndyTiedye]

1. They are. A business like Enron.

> making sure our elections happen in a businesslike way

They are. A business like Enron.

[ahyums]

2. this is a fight about values and freedom, the belief that nothing is more

important in a free society than to be able to vote and to know that you're vote counted. There is no more important value in a democracy than making sure that everyone has the opportunity to let their voice be heard on election day. If there is no confidence in the electoral system there can be no confidence about freedom, and that threatens the very basis of our existence. Let people believe in their government, let the people have confidence in their power.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

3. Ask for proof that the election WASN'T tampered with

Talk up the Diebold connection and all of their "personnel issues"

Make sure it is understood that the election systems are proprietary and can't be examined by the citizens.

Talk up the obstructionist behavior being encountered. What are they hiding? Don't they want to prove they won?

Talk up Bev's experience in Volusia. What were signed poll tapes doing in the garbage? What about those "newer" ones,why did they show more votes for *?

Talk up the Freeman report.

Talk up the history of exit polling - accurate until 2000...hmmm

[Marnieworld]

4. If it's good for the Ukraine why not the USA?

Exit polls are more trustworthy that tabulated votes. Exit polls are a check and balance to prevent vote fraud. Previously, we have doubted election results when they differed from exit polls. Why not here and now?

[MominTN]

5. We the people

We the people demand the right to vote and to have our votes count!
We take back our government from officials who choose to listen to lobbyists instead of the voters.
In order to do this, we will elect NEW representation who will listen to his/her constituents rather than telling us his party platform which we are forced to accept.
We hae a constitutional government which is by the people and for the people, and we take responsibility to change our government when it has gone astray. We do not have a government based on coorporations or based on the energy industry.
We the people demand our national security to take measures to protect our national security and defend each and every American living in our great country. We determine who becomes an American and who doesn't. We determine who enters our country and who doesn't. We determine when we need guest worker programs and when we do not. We the people demand that our borders are so secure that illegal entry isn't permitted.
We the people demand the public institutions for education and social security be protected from those who do not wish to see the common good continue for all citizens.
This is our country!

[Mabus]

6. Before framing the issues

don't you think it would be better to start with understanding the red state-mentality? Then, how do you communicate with that mentality, then comes framing the message.

For instance on a local forum, right after the election, there was a lot of bragging from the right wingers. Instead of slinking away or calling them braggarts I responded as politely as I could. After several exchanges the discussion turned to the draft. At that time I cited the Federal Register. Specifically the 10/28/04 notice concerning compliance with the draft. He called me a fear-monger, a liar and questioned my source.

I responded: "What happened to "turn the other cheek" and "love thy fellow man"? Perhaps you better get back and read your Bible and try to make it past casting stones. BTW, my "questionable source" is the federal government."

That's when I really began looking at things like Robert Parry's "Perception Management" article and realized how uninformed these people really are. Their sources of information are so narrow, incestuous and biased that they really don't know where to look for anything truthful.

The first thing you need to do is start looking at how they see the world, try to understand how they reconcile the differences between reality and the bubble they live in, before we can start getting them to understand where they are wrong.

[libertypirate]

7. Frames for recount

We don't have "Honesty Proof" election systems.

Machines only do what people tell them to do.

Frauding the election system is because someone made it happen, not because voodoo software likes Bush better.

According to media reports exit polls without hadicaps are not accurate in the US. Although in Germany exit polls have been accurate indicators of the vote consistently for the past ## years.

Have the republicans ever acted to include votes?

Who sets the value of people time? Why does one have to stand in the rain for hours while others do not? Equal is Equal, the opportunity to vote was not.

[ahyums]

8. The most important single message is that the people don't trust the

results. I've been thinking about this some more and of course part of the problem is that as yet very few relatively speaking know about all this so the first and most simple argument to make, is that large numbers found the election results suspicious, and in part that also fits the role of self fulfilling prophecy, the more people that question the election, the more people will question the election.

[geo]

9. Some TP are here...

Hi all,

I've been writing a series of posts on talking points with regards to partisan attacks on the recount and fraud investigation efforts. Here is a link to start with.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x72332

Have fun! Let's go get 'em. :)

Warmly,

- George

[txindy]

10. This isn't a partisan issue

Vote fraud can go both ways. Are you ready for your vote to be stolen? Are you prepared to hand it to whichever party has the most talented hackers?

[geo]

11. In our talking points we need to limit the rhetoric....

Hi all,

Just a reminder that playing the rhetoric game forces us to play a game on their turf. Attack issues head on and be ready to call them on the carpet if they play the spin game.

I know I sound like a broken record, but this is SO completely important in winning this. Please see my other posts on TPs in this and other threads. We need to stop the spin game and bring this public debate to a territory where truth has a chance of shining through. It is, after all, what we are fighting for. :)

Warmly,

George

[txindy]

13. Saying it's not a partisan issue is "playing the rhetoric game?"

Um...No. And, George, nobody is going to go chasing your posts around other threads just to see what you've written. Nobody has time for that and, to be perfectly frank, nobody knows who you are and doesn't care enough to find your posts. We're busy.

This is NOT a partisan issue. If you are going to present anybody with hard facts, and you follow that up with anything other than common ground, you're going to tank. Period.

You seem very enthusiastic. Maybe you should be the one who reads other posts in other threads to discover people here have a lot of excellent ideas. We don't need a conductor, thanks, especially one who registered three days ago and is intent on limiting what is said on this issue. We're not spinning anything. We haven't even been heard yet by the public or the non-cable media, so we don't need to "stop" anything -- we haven't begun, yet! The only people who want us to stop are those who favor this administration. The only peoople who want to limit what we say and do now are happy with the 'results' of this election. And that is, after all, what we are fighting against.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

12. I agree with GEO...A different strategy.............

Once again, we have managed to be stuck in the defensive mode. The "sore loser" mode.

An effective strategy will have to be from a different angle. We have to remember that (1) We know the opposition does not comprehend logic as evidenced during the election, and (2) There has been a total media blackout for the vast majority of the country. They know absolutely nothing yet about possible fraud. Even some of my democratic friends weren't aware of it. I say concentrate on the Democrats -- get their support first. Hey, many of them would be angry that maybe their vote didn't count.

The people I have mentioned this to, republicans, immediately say I am delusional and I just can not accept the defeat. I say fuck them - they will believe whatever the spin against this is anyway.

Personally, the most effective argument has been about the exit polls being wrong for only the swing states - and - every single time it benefitted * - and - that an MIT statistician said the odds of that happening were 1 in 250 million. Bev finding signed ballot results in the garbage is good.

Also, if anyone could count the violations, a large number to throw around would be great.

REMEMBER IF THE SHOE WAS ON THE OTHER FOOT.......

[senseandsensibility]

14. How about

many great Americans have died defending our right to vote, and we will not just throw that sacred right away?

[anamandujano]

15. Spread a little democracy here,

just like in the rest of the world.

[bleever]

16. Spin not needed. Rhetoric unnecessary. Clear choices of language

based on the common ground we already share is (IMO) what we want.

We're not looking to win a debate here. We don't want to debate about it at all. We're talking about what we all already agree about.

As noted above by txindy, it's a nonpartisan issue, and whether you voted red or blue, we all stop at stop signs, and wait nicely in line at the grocery store, and want our kids to have good manners, and drive on the right side of the road.

That's how basic I think this has to be, because our ultimate objective is simply to have the votes counted and totalled properly. And after all, it's the way the law is written, to ensure that it's a fair, accurate, and secure process.

Let them scream against that. Actually, I look forward to it.

:thumbsup:

[texpatriot2004]

17. Election Fraud is NOT a partisan issue!

Bleever I love your quote...where does it come from? "The wheels of the..." I like your messages too. O8)

I am a newbie and here's my two cents:

You say my vote counted...that it was counted for the person I intended it for...PROVE IT!

E-Voting without a verifiable trail is insane. It's not a transparent system. Voting like this means that I CANNOT BE CERTAIN that my government has the will of the people backing it.

Votergate...worse than Watergate, way worse!

Exit polls were never this wrong. In fact, they were never wrong until George W. Bush started participating in elections. Hmmm?

When you cast your electronic vote, did you wonder if it would really go to the candidate of your choice? Me too. I guess we will never know for sure. Oh well, like Rumsfeld and Rice say, "no election is perfect."

The Ukraine, yeah, let's get all up in their business so we don't have to look at our own.

I thought in America we were beyond intimidating voters and suppressing votes...obviously not.

[bleever]

18. Thanks. You're up to speed on the conversation alright.

The quote about the "wheels of the gods" I first heard from an eloquent, slightly inebriated businessman on a Japanese commuter train one night after work. Apparently it originally came from the Greek philospher Sextus Empiricus.

The same gentleman also mentioned two other sayings: "The bee robs the flower, but it also pollinates it," and "When it is dark, we can see the stars."

Welcome to DU! We got some good Texans here in our reality-based community.

:hi:

[Frumious B]

19. Here's what I tell people:

If the election and the system were run honestly then they should be able to easily stand up to this level of scrutiny. Even though I've seen no definitive proof of outright fraud in this election I've seen enough reports of irregularities to warrant an investigation. This isn't about putting this guy or that guy in the White House at all. It's about finding truth, putting fears to rest, and making sure that every legitimate vote is counted exactly the way the voter intended it to be counted. People are genuinely concerned and they need the definitive proof that this inquiry will provide.

[texpatriot2004]

20. Kick

[rebelskypirate]

24. How can anyone prove that their vote counted?

Since we have secret ballots, how would anyone KNOW that their vote was counted? You could prove that you signed in to vote, or for an absentee ballot, but how could anyone prove that THEIR specific ballot was counted vs discarded?

[texpatriot2004]

21. Kick

[planetc]

22. If it's not good enough for Ukrainians,

it's sure as HECK not good enough for Americans. That sort of thing?

[texpatriot2004]

27. Exactly! We should mind our own business... the election fraud

right in our own backyard.

[texpatriot2004]

23. Kick

[texpatriot2004]

25. kick

[texpatriot2004]

26. kick

[texpatriot2004]

28. Know the talking points and share them

[texpatriot2004]

29. Do you know your talking points, what are they?

[Straight Shooter]

30. "smoke rings in the dark"

"That's all the substance your votes have, they're just smoke rings in the dark."

Give them a visual image.

[peacetalksforall]

31. Why have exit polls 'failed' in only two of our Presidential elections?

Could it be that the polls are owned by TV networks who favor Republicans in every aspect of their business in an overt way?

Why did exit polls in these two elections work fine until later in the evening and night?

Why is the software and hardware used for electronic elections all owned by Republicans, some of whom are felons?

Why are the greater per cent of suspicious results all in states and counties where the machines were purchased and used in spite of known problems with them?

Why does the media want you to believe that there is nothing wrong with the machines?

Why would your county, state, and federal representatives allow un-certified and un-protected machines?

Why would anyone in the country accept tamper-proof and unattended and unprotected machines.

Why should anyone be satisfied with election officials who don't know beans about hardware and software or have any concept of the necessity for security?

Why is accuracy in money more important then accuracy in votes?

Would you be willing to use an ATM that was made by a company that made machines that could be manipulated - the companies that made the voting machines make ATMs?

Why should citizens be satisfied with theft?

(Get them answering questions rather than just listening to you).

[texpatriot2004]

34. Excellent Idea Higher Class

You know what your talking about. I will add these questions to my talking points...and points to listen to. Thanks for sharing.

[ClassWarrior]

32. Best place at DU to find a discussion on "frames"...

...is the Frame The Debate forum, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=252

NGU.

[texpatriot2004]

35. Hey thanks ClassWarrior I didn't know about that.

[Eloriel]

33. See this --

Empathy Training for Compassionate Conservatives: Why the Democrats Are Still Whining About the Election (and Why Maybe We Should Be, Too)
http://www.chuckherrin.com/ConservativeEmpathy.htm

The counterpoint, Empathy Training for Liberals, is also worth reading.

[texpatriot2004]

37. Chuck Herrin is a good guy...Hack the vote is a sight to see

For a conservative he's not bad. I love his step-by-step instructions for how to hack the vote. It is great for passing along to others.

http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm

[texpatriot2004]

36. kick

[keepthemhonest]

38. how about we have them defend the election fraud for us

let's use some of MSM (and other People in power) words on the ukrane fraud.

for starters.. Col Powell spoke up the other day, that they don't think the election is legit based on exit polls.

ARe their other examples like that? I am sure we would catch them talking out both side of their faces.

[texpatriot2004]

39. It's not hard to catch them talking out of both sides of their mouths

It would be good if we could use their own words against them.

[BeFree]

40. It was a Miracle

Even Fox news was saying that Kerry had won at 5pm on Nov. 2.

But the miracle of all miracles happened and Fox later said that Bush came from behind and won. It is proof of a Miracle, that all the polls, even the high priced election day exit polling, somehow made an astronomical error in their calculations.

Bush owes his presidency to Miracles happening, it's as simple as that.

[texpatriot2004]

41. Yes, I have heard his "coming from behind" miracle

related to the political equivalent of the parting of the red sea or the loaves and fishes miracle. I believe in miracles but not the GWBush kind. No way.

[texpatriot2004]

42. Americans are being asked to believe the unbelievable

We are now being asked to believe the unbelievable. Before Election Day, the momentum of ousting Bush was very strong and very real. Even though the race seemed close, Bush was never able to break 47 or 48 percent. Kerry, in the very end, was pulling ahead. The news of the week was not good for Bush. Another blow to his competency came with the missing explosives and possibly, the Osama tape. As it stood, Republicans were moving to Kerry, undecided voters were moving to Kerry, young people were for Kerry, Independents were for Kerry…why even the day of the election the exit polls – opinions from Americans actually voting – were indicating Kerry was on the road to victory. Zogby, one of the only pollsters in 2000 who was correct called it for Kerry. We even had record turn out which traditionally, historically favors the Democrats. Turnout in spite of GOP voter suppression claims that were reported across the USA. Oh, and all the articles I read indicated that Democrats had registered more voters than the Republicans. Hell, even Karen Hughes had told the president he lost. Then, a peculiar thing, a sudden shift, once the votes began to be counted by the machines that Diebold built Bush was up by 5 in states where there was no paper trail. Hmmm, sounds fishy to me. In fact, it REMINDS me of the WARREN COMMISSION'S MAGIC BULLET THEORY. My fellow Americans, we have been had! DON'T BELIEVE THE UNBELIEVABLE!

The exit polls correlate perfectly to votes in states with a paper trail. Evidence is mounting that suggests the machines were adding and subtracting votes all over the place. There are reports of machines recording more votes than there were voters in areas. How can that be? These computer “glitches” were everywhere. Many voters have reported problems voting for Kerry. Like the jokes on the internet, it seems some of the machines didn’t want to record Kerry votes, some of them wanted to record Kerry votes as Bush votes…and some of them did. Is this an American election or what? Our Democracy is threatened. An interesting fact so far is that, of all the errors, no reports have surfaced that err in Kerry’s favor. How curious?

[buzzard]

45. Texas Patriot what is going on in New Hampshire.

I can't find any information except a thread on daily kos

[texpatriot2004]

43. kick

[texpatriot2004]

44. kick