8,099 Cuyahoga ballots ruled invalid

[Freddie Stubbs]

Tuesday, November 23, 2004
Diane Solov
Plain Dealer Reporter

The questions about provisional ballots haven't gotten any easier, but there is a preliminary answer to how many of the controversial ballots will be discarded in Cuyahoga County.

The Cuyahoga County Board of Elections voted Monday to reject one out of three of the 24,472 provisional ballots cast in the Nov. 2 election.

The bulk of the 8,099 invalidated ballots were determined to have been cast by nonregistered voters or registered voters who cast their ballots in the wrong precinct. Voters received provisional ballots at the polls on Election Day if their names did not appear on the voter rolls.

Among Ohio's 88 counties, Cuyahoga County had the largest number of the controversial ballots, which pre-election predictions had said could rival the hanging chad as a blemish on official election results.

more: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1101205815101550.xml

[ohtransplant]

1. This is why we need a recount

Blackwell has successfully blurred the definition of an acceptable provisional ballot.

The provisionals, which were supposed to help those disenfranchised, have been a bonus to goons like Blackwell.

[Freddie Stubbs]

4. How is it a bonus?

These people simply would not have been able to vote under the old rules.

[ohtransplant]

12. That's a good point but also,

I believe many people weren't too vigilant about updating their registration because of assurances they could vote provisional.

For example, I moved 1-1/2 miles. If I had not updated my registration, I would have had to vote provisional. In June, the BoE told me it wouldn't matter much. Since I wasn't convinced, I updated mine. There were many who didn't.

This convinces me more that we shouldn't leave these things to chance and/or the BoE's assurances. In other words, the provisional ballots have become a Trojan horse.

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. Isn't Cuyahoga County run by Democrats?

What would they have to gain by disenfranchising voters?

[ohtransplant]

19. It's primarily a Democratic county

although I don't know who runs the BoE there, the odds are that it's a Dem.

That said, The issues I mentioned are largely determined at the state level. that's why I mentioned Blackwell and his attempts to "clarify" or redefine who's eligible to cast a provisional ballot. He was taken to court several times I believe.

To illustrate the kind of uncertainty I describe, see the messages below. At this point, I'm not certain who was eligible and who wasn't.

To clarify, I'm not in Cuyahoga and I'm in a repub county.

[Lil]

20. Was it in WA where Dems contacted voters whose prov. ballots. . .

. . . were "invalid" to try to fix the info?

Also, *somewhere* I saw a full page news paper add with names of those whose registration or provisional ballot inf. was incomplete - allowing them to come forward to clarify it.

[ohtransplant]

26. Sorry, don't have a lot of time to research right now

but isn't there a phone number (or numbers) people can call to see if their provisional ballot was counted.

It would surprise me if they could update or correct information after election day but personally I don't see the harm.

[Hobbes199]

13. The point is...

The provisionals are supposed to be there _in case_ people didn't get registered like they thought for whatever reason, or had their precincts changed for whatever reason. If they were eligible to vote, living in the state and only voting once, then those ballots should be legit.

[righteous1]

15. Not really

Provisional ballots are primarly for people who are registered but do not show up on the "rolls". You vote provisionally and then it is shown that even though you were not on the rolls you were properly registered your vote is deemed valid

[DireStrike]

2. One out of three? Isn't that unusual? -nt-

[Chimpanzee]

3. Last election they approved 90%

[yellowcanine]

5. Maybe I am dense but I don't get the "wrong precinct" business.

If one is properly registered to vote but went to the wrong precinct on election day - why shouldn't their vote still count if their registration can be verified? It's not like they are registered in another state - which I could understand because of the Electoral Vote issue. But if they are eligible to vote in Ohio - why shouldn't they be able to vote anywhere in Ohio for president? I could see not being able to vote for congressperson or state legislator if they are in the wrong district - but president? Doesn't make sense.

[Yupster]

6. Problem is down the ballott

Their precinct may be in a different congressional district or even a different city council district than the one they voted in.

If their vote is counted, they'd be voting for a congressman or sheriff that they weren't allowed to vote for.

The reason I know this is that I used to be an election judge, and I still feel bad that about 10 years ago on counting ballots at the end of the day I realized I gave one person the wrong precinct's ballot so they voted on offices they shouldn't have been able to vote for. Luckily there weren't any close races or I would have been explaining stuff in the newspapers the next day. That's not how you want to get famous.

[Jersey Devil]

9. So you just count the statewide votes - easy

What's so hard about just counting the presidential votes if they are cast in the wrong precinct?

[righteous1]

16. It's not hard

It's just against the law. A lower court ruled you could vote in the wrong precinct but the Ohio Supreme court overturned it

[darthdemocrat]

18. What about the Ohio Supremes...

if HAVA was passed by the feds would they even consider it in a ruling or would they be ruling on the basis of state law? Couldn't a challenge be mounted in a US court instead if they disregarded HAVA?

[righteous1]

24. This was a ruling

of state law. The law has existed for a while. The Ohio Supreme Court upheld the law. Don't see how a Fed court could get involved unless some coordinated usurption (sp) of the existing law was proven

[Eloriel]

11. They did everything they could to throw away votes in OH

How's this for fun and games:

Her ballot thrown out. Right building. Right room. Wrong table. (Canton)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x5010
Link: http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=193617&Category=9

[IAMREALITY]

23. THAT IS FUCKING BULLSHIT

Now I see why they have that lawsuit pending about the counting of provisional ballots. That is some of the biggest Disenfranchisement BULLSHIT I have seen yet.

GODDAMN THESE MOTHER FUCKERS!!!!!!

[Woo]

10. Exactly...

The whole point of the provisional ballots was to help people who might have gone to the wrong precinct to vote -- I think if it comes down to a challenge of those ballots Blackwell will get over ruled -- he's suppose to be helping people not hurting them

[kitp]

7. confused, help please

HAVA states in section 302 (PROVISIONAL VOTING AND VOTING INFORMATION REQUIREMENTS.)

(3) An election official at the polling place shall transmit
the ballot cast by the individual or the voter information
contained in the written affirmation executed by the individual
under paragraph (2) to an appropriate State or local election
official for prompt verification under paragraph (4).

4) If the appropriate State or local election official to
whom the ballot or voter information is transmitted under
paragraph (3) determines that the individual is eligible under
state law to vote, the individual's provisional ballot shall be
counted as a vote in that election in accordance with State law.

It does not say that the individual is REGISTERED but that they are ELIGIBLE. I don't understand why even those votes are not being counted. Certainly the registered voters in the wrong precinct should have their votes count.

Am I wrong on this?

[AndrewClarke]

22. "confused, help please"

The law says "eligible under state law to vote," not, "eligible under state law to register." In Ohio, you are not eligible to vote if you are not registered.

[CementDude]

8. Sheesh, it's so simple...

The rule should be:

If you vote in the wrong precinct, your votes for precinct specific races (such as Judge), will be void, but any state/national races (such as Senator/President), shall count assuming you are a registered voter within the state which simply voted in the wrong precinct.

Why can't it be that simple?

[truehawk]

17. Because the ReThugs don't want it to be simple

[darthdemocrat]

21. I think we all know

that we're up against people who want to win by any means possible. They don't care about the core principles of democracy. They want to abuse technicalities and loopholes no matter how ridiculous they appear in the face of equal protection and the importance of the right to vote.

We need to be effective in making a public case and preventing them from re-framing the issue. I think a great example can be found in the past when it was said "no taxation without representation"

If these people want to govern, we must absolutely demand that it is only by the consent of the governed or that will continue to slip away from us.

[Action Jackson]

25. the wrong precinct being the wrong table is bullshit!

I am in shock of the stories of the voters who went to the wrong precinct. But the wrong precinct was in fact just the wrong table because one polling place has multiple precincts in the same room with the tables near each other. COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT.

[LisaL]

27. Exactly.

They had several precincts in the same place where I voted.
Some had long lines, some didn't.
Mine of course had the longest line.
:mad: