JOHN KERRY has to contest this election IMMEDIATELY, or all is lost!

[ElementaryPenguin]

Enough with the subtle approach!! It isn't working. We are being stonewalled! Kerry/Edwards have the resources to open this thing up NOW! It can't be successfully done without them! Bev Harris, Nader, the Greens, the Ohio Democratic Party, and many others on this board have broken the ice for them - now it's time for them to close the deal and live up to their "every vote will count" promise. If Kerry got more votes, but Bush is allowed to assume office, then NONE of the 50 some odd million votes counted! NONE!!

This cannot be tolerated! This will be the second presidential election in a row stolen by this administration. If Bush is simply allowed to assume office, and the fraud is revealed some time later - Bush cannot be removed from office without impeachment - and the GOP/Delay controlled Congress will NEVER ever impeach him! These thugs will also NEVER pass legislation abolishing their new ticket to rigging EVERY election in their favor!

I am anything but a defeatist, and I'm sorry to be coming off as such an alarmist, but there is simply no other way for justice to prevail here. This may be our last shot as restoring democracy to this country for generations! Kerry (whom I've always admired) MUST take a Gore-like stance NOW! The fraud in this election absolutely DWARFS 2000! Yes, we all know that Kerry will be "Gored" by the corporate press! So what? The majority of Americans actually voted for Kerry, and will approve of his challenge. Remember, Gore challenged - and actually would have had Bush beat on the recount, had the Supreme Court not stepped in in such an outrageously desperate fashion!

It is very debatable whether or not this country can possibly survive 4 more years of this administration - endless wars, bottomless debt, right-wing Supreme Court justices, the environment destroyed... What are we all waiting for? What are KERRY/EDWARDS waiting for? These are two bright, powerful warriors - and this is THEIR moment in history!! This is OUR moment! Where are we - the alleged "greatest" country on earth, when our precious democracy is being threatened? In the streets like those upstart Ukrainians? Hell No! We're sitting around like 285 million boobs - waiting to take orders from a dumbed down, totally corrupt boob tube! And try to have a Happy Thanksgiving, too.

[swag]

1. More exclamation points, please.

[genius]

49. If Kerry doesn't unconcede, he should be strung up by his toenails.

[ElementaryPenguin]

76. Yeah, that pretty much sums my position up.

[New Earth]

2. i totally agree with you

that is the conclusion i just came to today. we are nowhere without Kerry leading.

[MrUnderhill]

3. I've wondered about that. What IS the fear?

I don't personally buy in to a massive fraud theory, but I respect those who do.

Here's my question:

Assume for a moment that the election was completely legit... what is Kerry afraid of? Does it irreparably harm the Democratic party to "drag us through the mud" and challenge the election?

I don't know that it does. The 2000 election was fought tooth and nail, and it gave Senate Democrats enough "mandate" to resist judial appointments and other blatant partisanship. "Bush is a potentially illegitimate president and does not deserve to appoint judges" etc.. got a lot accomplished.

So why NOT fight? Even if Kerry believes he lost fair and square (which I'm not sure that he does - when I hear him talk about "losing by 50,000 votes" I assume he knows about where this will end up).

[righteous1]

7. Doesn't want to appear as a sore loser i guess

[MrUnderhill]

9. So? Is he going to lose his Senate seat? No.

Will he lose his shot at running in '08? I've got some news for him... it's already gone unless he's the incumbent.

[ElementaryPenguin]

26. Exactly!!

[Straight Shooter]

61. Report to the office. You have exceeded your exclamation marks allotment

:hi:

[ElementaryPenguin]

69. Sorry about that. Just can't seem to keep my voice down

Whenever I'm watching a gang of ruthless, murderous, fascist
fuck-heads literally destroying my country!!!!!!!

:shrug:

But I will henceforth make a genuine effort to conserve.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. Maybe he does not want to be tarnished for 2008?

Not that I think he would be, but it is the only reason I can think of.

[MrUnderhill]

24. He ISN'T going to BE the candidate in '08 unless it's as the incumbent.

We've got better candidates we can run.

[ElementaryPenguin]

75. That's the truth.

[Ladyhawk]

218. If we don't fix this now, 2008 will be rigged, too.

There's no sense hoping otherwise.

[ElementaryPenguin]

25. We can't afford to forfeit our democracy...

So that John Kerry can get out of this "untarnished!"

[fearnobush]

113. In 08? No way in hell could vote for him again. He's too weak.

He knows it was stolen, he knows what they did and he does nothing. He worries that the media will focus on the 10 dead guys that voted for him illegally and that that will tarnish the party. Fuck the party, I'm sorry, I'm feeling dissed as hell. I feel electorically raped and sodomized. I see what is going on in Ukraine, I see those people and liberal leaders actually giving a shit and fighting while here at home, my so called land of the free, my leaders are weak, scared, and not willing to defend democracy.

[ElementaryPenguin]

115. You've hit on the head, fear- no-bush! Are leaders are

Weak - and NOT willing to defend democracy. If they don't put up a decent fight with this - the Democratic party is really through!

[ElementaryPenguin]

17. Some excellent points.

I don't understand the fear either.

[pbartch]

4. Hey, I agree with you totally.

Kerry & Edwards need to move and move now.

Can Edwards do it by himself??? As he was the candidate for VP.....can he request a recount.

Edwards is the one that said on the "black day of concession" that they (Kerry/Edwards) were going to make sure every vote was counted.

THEY ALSO SAID: "HELP IS ON THE WAY"

NOW I'm really starting to get the blue funk again.

[CrispyQ]

12. Kerry also said, "I have your back."

Yeah right. I feel like I got stabbed in the back.

I contributed hundreds of dollars to his campaign - something I've never done before! - & he tells me to work with Bushco? I hope against hope that Kerry is working fervently in the background on the fraud issue, but I have a hard time believing it.

I'm in a funk too.

[MelissaB]

22. I'm in a "funk", too!

I'm disappointed, upset, and pissed off. I don't know what to believe or who to trust.

[ElementaryPenguin]

28. I hear you! Stabbed in the back is right!

And I'm getting really pissed about this whole damn thing!

[fearnobush]

114. Kerry left our backs exposed. It's too late for the back thing.

He has 52 million for a recount fund and is NOT SPENDING A DIME of it. This will end his career for sure. I love his stand on issues, but does he stand?

[googly]

163. The $52 Million is for Kerry to keep (does not have to return it)

A nice chunk of change which he should donate immediately
to the recount effort! (only one exclamation, I like to conserve
precious resources).

[LittleClarkie]

179. Okay, now where did THAT figure come from

I thought it was more like 15 million. And first someone said it was for 2008, then someone said it was for recounts.

I imagine the 17000 lawyers are at least getting their expenses paid, even if they are volunteer. I'm not even sure of that. Are they all supposed to be working gratis?

Are we pulling figures out of our butts?

I'd like it if we had our facts straight before we go accusing half-cocked.

[ElementaryPenguin]

19. Not sure it it's true, but I've heard that Edwards cannot do it by himself

And he really seems to want to.

[truehawk]

204. I think he would have standing.

[checks-n-balances]

5. I hate reading this, but thanks for the wakeup call. So what can we do?

Email or call him? Reach him through Chris Heinz? Contact him collectively as DU?

[ElementaryPenguin]

20. Let's try all of those methods.

:shrug:

[understandinglife]

6. Simply -- It's time Senator Kerry, Just Do It (n/t)

[ElementaryPenguin]

29. Right on!

:toast:

[zann725]

56. ...and do it NOW, pleeeease!

n/t:bounce:

[leftyandproud]

10. No...we can't survive four more years, but Kerry lost...so we MUST. *NT*

It's over folks...by a margin of 4 million, the people have spoken.

[GetTheRightVote]

13. What world do you live in, there is fraud & it was stolen

You get over it, I will not lay down and die just because it is harder to disagree then to agree. That is what they want and they will never get it from me, are you a red person ?? Then you are in the wrong room, move or move over.

[txindy]

14. No, it's not.

And we don't know how big of a margin it truly was -- or even if that margin existed. It's not over until all the deadlines have passed. The law has spoken on that.

[Royal Observer]

89. Here's what I heard.

They are still counting the votes in Ohio as I'm typing this. After all the votes are counted there will be a recount. The Ohio election must be certified by December 6th according to law even if the recount is still in progress. Whoever is ahead at the end of the count will get Ohio's votes.
A recount in Ohio does not mean that the election is contested.
Check it out let me know if I'm wrong.

[ElementaryPenguin]

31. The margin doesn't matter - 90 seconds and you can rig any margin you want

Bush lost! That's why Karen Hughes told him he had.

[Carolab]

11. Try these

http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/contact/email.html

Washington D.C.
304 Russell Bldg.
Third Floor
Washington D.C. 20510
[phone] - Phone
[phone] - Fax

Boston
One Bowdoin Square
Tenth Floor
Boston, MA 02114
[phone] - Phone
[phone] - Fax

Springfield
One Financial Plaza
Springfield, MA 01103
[phone] - Phone
[phone] - Fax

Fall River
222 Milliken Place
Suite 311
Fall River, Ma 02722
[phone] - Phone
[phone] - Fax

Worcester
90 Madison Place
Suite 205
Worcester, MA 01608
[phone] - Phone

[ElementaryPenguin]

33. Thanks for these. Lets all get calling, faxing, e-mailing, demonstrating!

Lets FIGHT!

[Pooka Fey]

34. Massachusetts DU'ers please write Sen. Kerry TODAY!!!!!!

I just sent Sen. Kerry an email asking him to step up. The website said because of the traffic, only MA residents would get any attention for the next few weeks. So if you're here, and you live in Bahhhston or environs; please add your voice.

[ElementaryPenguin]

37. If that's the case, then PLEASE, Mass DUers - put the pressure on NOW!

Step up, John. Now is the time, big guy!

[proudtobeadem]

126. What if we stand outside his office where he can see us

with a GIANT sign saying Kerry Unconceed -the time is NOW! ??

[Jo March]

127. I've been contemplating that for about a week now

To heck with protesting FOX or CNN or any of those vile bastards. I'm going to stand outside Kerry's DC office with a sign that says, "Turn the boat around NOW! Unconcede and Contest!"

Dammit.

[googly]

165. I have to agree with the poster above why Kerry is not stepping in

He may not want an in-depth investigation of Ohio voting since it may expose some dead voters in Cuyahoga county may have voted for him. It will unnecessarily tarnish the party and will make it more difficult in future to pad the democrat vote totals. I have no way to know if that is the reason, but my guess is based on 35 years spent in Chicago area.

Kerry must be convinced there are not enough votes out there to flip Ohio -or- repug fraud if present can not be proved. Can't think of any other reason why Kerry is not using his $52 Million leftover cash.

[rasbobbo]

15. breathe... now let it out...

the election was stolen. that's just the way it smells to me.
it was also the most vile campaign i've seen in my 54 years.
breathe...
you & i will survive the next 4 years.
we will live in a country that is loathed & laughed at by the rest of the planet, true.
the looting of the national treasury will continue, possibly escalate, true.
deep breath now... okay exhale...
we will also get to watch the republicans eat themselves.
won't that be fun?
i have very little faith in the press or elections right now.
but, i do think we will survive this.

[Carolab]

16. B.S.!!!!

Open your eyes.

WE WON'T SURVIVE THIS!

WE MUST FIGHT RIGHT NOW!

JUST LIKE THE BRAVE SOULS IN THE UKRAINE!

WRITE TO KERRY! CALL HIM!! BOMBARD HIM WITH MESSAGES UNTIL HE DOES SOMETHING!

[ElementaryPenguin]

39. German jews probably thought they'd survive Hitler's government...

With Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove at the helm - we're heading towards becoming the nastiest, most powerful totalitarian state the world has ever known!

[glitch]

21. If it weren't for irreparable harm to the environment, those living in

poverty, and the victims of our 'optional' wars, I would feel much better about watching the rightwing self-destruct.
They are suicide bombers, and they will be taking a lot of innocents with them.

[ElementaryPenguin]

35. "Thinking" we will survive this ISN'T good enough for me.

Though if it comes to that, I sure hope you're right.

[pat_k]

203. "...was stolen...."? Wrong tense. There is a burglary in progress and ...

"...was stolen...." ?

Wrong tense. There is a burglary in progress and you say, "take a deep breath, they won't take more than we can afford to lose"?

I don't think so.

It's time to do everything in our power to prevent them from getting away with the goods.

If they manage to pull it off, then it's time to figure out how to recover what they have stolen.

The preservation of our government depends our ability to stand up against what they are doing. We may or may not be successful, but if we don't stand up, we might as well just kiss the whole "consent of the governed" thing goodby.

[ladjf]

18. I think we may need to consider the possibility that Kerry

never intended to be elected. But, whatever his motives, he has most definitely abandoned the fight. We are without a willing candidate.

[wlubin]

30. True, think back. Dean was winning. The * clan was very scared because

of the very grass roots aspect of Dean, and it would have been hard for them to do a smear campaign on him. So the flying monkies were given their assignment and thus they amplified his scream and put it on loop for about a week. The repubs then rigged the iowa primary giving it to Kerry. Then the swift boat ugly looking mutha f***** with lies attacked kerry. And for how many weeks did Kerry do nothing? Was this his way of giving it to dumbya? Maybe we are alone in this. Maybe we the people need to take this country back. There are how many millions of us, and like what, a thousand of them?

[ladjf]

38. I was always worried about the Skull and Bones connection,

not to mention that they were both rich New Englanders. They had way too much in common to satisfy me. And the quickness of his departure after Nov. 2, the total absence of any further comment, looks bad.

[LittleClarkie]

181. Oh, snap out of it

and take that damn tin hat off. It makes you look like a dork.

It's just that sort of hysterical talk that makes us look like a bunch of nutcases. If we're going to get voter reform at the very, very least, we need to not look like a bunch of looney conspiracy theorists.

And you are WRONG about John Kerry. If you think he could ever be a party to a Bush plan for power like that, it shows how very little you know about him.

And we have had further comment. What total absence? What about last Friday's email. He said that every vote would be counted.

[ladjf]

186. Excuse me for having an opinion.

Not being the all knowing sage that you are, I left with only the
information that we get from the media. The fact that both candidates
were members of the same highly political yet small and exclusive fraternity, coupled with things that were said and done during the campaign and after it cause me to be suspicious. In light of the obvious numerous cases of criminal activity by the Republicans and the Bush administration, anyone who isn't suspicious of everything is
either stupid, careless or "loony", to use your words.

And speaking of suspicions, I'm suspicious that you are a Republican plant on the board. Else why would you speak so derisively to a fellow DU'er? Are you on the payroll or just doing it for fun?

[ahyums]

188. it's depressing really isn't it that every time someone says something

that someone else doesn't like they are accused of being a republican plant or worse. I do realize that they exist and have seen them in action, but it's a shame it always seems to come to that so quickly... anyway I'll probably be labeled a plant now just for questioning people being labeled as plants.

[LittleClarkie]

189. And you with such a low posting number too

You poor thing. I was getting that too not too long ago. It's like reverse McCarthyism. Hand in there, and just post lots.

It's just that one theory in particular that gets on my last nerve. The poster above you lists off many different reasons why he/she feels the way they do. But they leave out one area of study, Kerry himself.

What they're describing is NOT the way Kerry has lived his life. Really, it's not based on any kind of facts and alot of innuendo. All we have is a connection we don't understand, so we attach all manner of sinister implications to it. We have enough in reality to deal with without that.

And as I said, we want to be insistent that the truth come out without being dismissed as not dealing with reality.

(to guy above) Not a plant, dear. Just someone who still has John Kerry's back, something that will continue unconditionally regardless of the result. If something can be proven in a court of law, it will be. If all we have is antecdotes and hearsay, as compelling as it may be, it may or may not hold up.

I'm not even holding out much hope of getting Kerry for Prez 2004, much as I desperately want it. But if I can't have that, then I want voting in America fixed. Hence, people like Keith Obermann are doing good work.

It is a travasty that the Ukraine is showing us how it's done. They're more of a democracy now than we are, bless their hearts. Democracy is so new and shiny there, they haven't apparently gotten sick of it yet.

[seito]

195. Suspicious....No

Sad...Yes

It is not enough that we attack John Kerry, now go after anyone that supports him. "You must be a freeper if you disagree with me, especially if you have a low thread count."

[saracat]

208. Please. Dean lost because nobody voted for him.

He slepped those kids into Iowa 12000 strong and still the kids didn't vote for him. The university towns went for Kerry. Dean was through before the infamous"scream" for which I think he was most unfairly lambasted, but it was already over. You must not know a great deal about Dean if you think that they couldn't have done a smear job on him .Think about it for a minute. And also consider the fact that Dean was voted the 5th most conservative governor in America.Check out some of the pre primary comments that would have been thrown in his face. Sorry .They would have shredded anyone. The DNC and the DLC are to blame for the lack of rapid response regarding the SBVFT. Even Newsweek has an article on how Kerry and Edwards both had responses ready to go and were held back. Why? Probably the same idiocy that always has them pandering to the moderates with their fear of offending people. As long as the Dems believe it is "offensive" to fight, they will lose. Bipartisanship just doesn't work and neither does being a gentleman. We don't yet get that they hate us and that this is a fight to the finish! And for the theorist below, Kerry, Dean ,and Bush all went to Yale. How does that fit your scenario? But I guess you are concentrating on S and B?????

[ElementaryPenguin]

41. Man, I really don't want to believe that.

AND I WANT MY MONEY BACK, DNC!!

[saracat]

209. I really can't buy that. He mortgaged his house and campaigned

through cancer treatments. How much more dedicated to you need to be? And look at Mrs. Edwards. She put off getting treatment during the campaign. These people wanted to win! Now as for other aspects of the party, ??????

[merh]

23. How does he contest something that has happened yet?

As far as Ohio goes, the counting has not been completed and the results have not been certified to. So, like the Judge that heard the lawsuit filed by Ohio Dems - to force the SOS to certify to the votes is not within the courts powers and to order a recount before the vote is certified to is PREMATURE!

Premature exclamation on your part relative to OHIO!

Geezeeeeeeeeeeee

[seito]

27. Perhaps his lawyers

could appeal the lower court's decision to delay the recount until the official count is certified...

Just a thought, since the Democrats are now "participating" in the recount.

[merh]

32. Not going to happen - its a states rights versus federal powers

the federal court will not interfere in the state's election process. No way to prove it violates the constitution of the Voting Rights act. :shrug: They just have to wait for SOS to certify to them.

[Patsy Stone]

36. I'm sorry but where were you in 2000?

Maybe I'm mis-reading your response, and if I am, I apologize, but do you remember when the SCOTUS (can't get more Federal than that) stomped hard on states' rights regarding certifying their own electors? Stop counting? Just this one-time only supression of states' rights, from a Conservative court? Former champions of states' rights?

Please. I only hope the SCOTUS steps in again and attempts to give You-Know-Who the "legitimacy" he deserves.

[merh]

42. I was right here in 2000

and the supreme court's ruling had nothing to do with the federal courts telling the state's how and when to certify their elections. Don't mix apples with oranges.

Bush v. Gore
531 U.S. 98 (2000)
Docket Number: 00-949
Abstract

Argued: December 11, 2000
Decided: December 12, 2000
Subjects: Judicial Power: Civil Rights

Facts of the Case
Following the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Board, and concurrent with Vice President Al Gore's contest of the certification of Florida presidential election results, on December 8, 2000 the Florida Supreme Court ordered that the Circuit Court in Leon County tabulate by hand 9000 contested ballots from Miami-Dade County. It also ordered that every county in Florida must immediately begin manually recounting all "under-votes" (ballots which did not indicate a vote for president) because there were enough contested ballots to place the outcome of the election in doubt. Governor George Bush and his running mate, Richard Cheney, filed a request for review in the U.S. Supreme Court and sought an emergency petition for a stay of the Florida Supreme Court's decision. The U.S. Supreme Court granted review and issued the stay on December 9. It heard oral argument two days later.


Question Presented
Did the Florida Supreme Court violate Article II Section 1 Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution by making new election law? Do standardless manual recounts violate the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Constitution?

Conclusion
Noting that the Equal Protection clause guarantees individuals that their ballots cannot be devalued by "later arbitrary and disparate treatment," the per curiam opinion held 7-2 that the Florida Supreme Court's scheme for recounting ballots was unconstitutional. Even if the recount was fair in theory, it was unfair in practice. The record suggested that different standards were applied from ballot to ballot, precinct to precinct, and county to county. Because of those and other procedural difficulties, the court held that no constitutional recount could be fashioned in the time remaining (which was short because the Florida legislature wanted to take advantage of the "safe harbor" provided by 3 USC Section 5). Loathe to make broad precedents, the per curiam opinion limited its holding to the present case. Rehnquist (in a concurring opinion joined by Scalia and Thomas) argued that the recount scheme was also unconstitutional because the Florida Supreme Court's decision made new election law, which only the state legislature may do. Breyer and Souter (writing separately) agreed with the per curiam holding that the Florida Court's recount scheme violated the Equal Protection Clause, but they dissented with respect to the remedy, believing that a constitutional recount could be fashioned. Time is insubstantial when constitutional rights are at stake. Ginsburg and Stevens (writing separately) argued that for reasons of federalism, the Florida Supreme Court's decision ought to be respected. Moreover, the Florida decision was fundamentally right; the Constitution requires that every vote be counted.

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/766/

[Patsy Stone]

101. Yet the reason given by the majority was

the court held that no constitutional recount could be fashioned in the time remaining (which was short because the Florida legislature wanted to take advantage of the "safe harbor" provided by 3 USC Section 5).

Doesn't that go against: the Constitution requires that every vote be counted?

Which is it? Time permitting or "Time is insubstantial when constitutional rights are at stake."

Either way, the SCOTUS said stop counting and go with Cruella's count. We don't care what the ballots say, really. The country can not possibly wait until the FL Legislature gets its act together even if it reconvenes now.

As I see it, that is a federal court telling the state how and when to choose it's electors. No?

[Leilani]

40. I was under the impression that the decision yesterday

discussed here at DU, was that the judge denied recount because the 3rd party candidates could not benefit from a recount. In other words, regardless of votes, they had no chance.

However, if Kerry or DNC joined the suit, the judge could reverse decision.

I make no claim to being up to date, or in-the-know on the ohio issue. But there have been so many different posts with various info, I wish someone could clarify the current situation.

And also, after certification, is there enough time for a recount?

[ElementaryPenguin]

45. It'll be tough, but possible...

Unless we just let Blackwell get away with running out the clock.

[ElementaryPenguin]

44. Well the Supreme Court sure interfered with states rights in Bush v. Gore!

:puke:

[ElementaryPenguin]

43. He needs to quit PUSSYFOOTING around - and contest Florida and Ohio

NOW!!!! Even if the recount can't start yet in Ohio, he needs to get all the wheels in motion now - while there's still time!

[ClassWarrior]

46. THE SKY IS FALLING!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

You haven't been paying attention, have you?

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

47. I have been paying attention, comrade - and the sky IS falling!

:evilfrown:

[ClassWarrior]

48. Settle down and read...

http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm

By the way, the Kerry spokeman's response in this AM's WaPo was brilliant. "We didn't initiate this count, Mr. Journalist," coy smile, "but since it's going to happen anyway, we'll just deploy thousands of lawyers to make sure it goes right."

Sure. Kerry's abandoned us.

NGU.

[New Earth]

52. well then Kerry needs to keep contact

he needs to, in some way, let us know every once in a while that he is still behind the effort.

ha, he should start posting on this board!!

[ClassWarrior]

54. What do you think that email to volunteers was on Friday?

The one with the video link? Even Olbermann agrees it was a veiled way of telling his campaign troops he's with us.

NGU.

[New Earth]

55. i know, that's what i got from it too

but he needs to send another one :(

[ClassWarrior]

60. How about if JK himself calls you every hour on the hour??

:crazy:

NGU.

[New Earth]

62. lol

that would be fine with me. where can i leave him my number? :D

[ElementaryPenguin]

63. I was elated over that video. But the followup - with the clock winding

Down...? Florida needs to be opened up and examined as well as Ohio.

[missouri dem]

119. Kerry is way too nuanced for me. Now is not the time to be subtle.

Time is running out. Have you read the Bev Harris post today?

[ElementaryPenguin]

57. Thanks, CW. I read that piece already and I loved it. JFK needs to

Go into Florida, as well as Ohio. I'm worried that they are having second thought about really getting into this. They should be finding ways to give Bev Harris support. The press is making a big fuss about the Ukraine - they can't ignore it here if Kerry/Edwards make their formal challenge now. There's lots of evidence to be pointed to now, that they couldn't point to the day after the election.

[ClassWarrior]

59. They're having second thoughts??

That's why their spokesman was quoted in TODAY's Washington Post???

:crazy:

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

64. How do you know their spokesman isn't just tossing out crumbs

Simply to placate the masses of hopeful fools like us - trying to discourage a mass exodus from the Democratic party, or one from the Kerry camp?

[ClassWarrior]

68. And how do you know that they ARE??

By the way, have YOU volunteered to go to Ohio yet? I have.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

71. I'm not claiming to know that they are, just concerned that they might be.

That's fantastic that you've volunteered to go to Ohio. I thank you. Unfortunately, I can't.

:yourock:

for that!

[ClassWarrior]

82. So you're claiming ALL IS LOST, based on a little niggling "concern??"

That's troublesome.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

88. You're like a passenger on the Titanic trying hard not to overreact!

Everything's just peachy, huh, CW? That "niggling concern" is only that OUR ENTIRE SHIP IS FUCKING SINKING - AND MANY OF US ARE ABOUT TO PERISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ClassWarrior]

142. You said...

"I'm not claiming to know that (Kerry's spokesperson is throwing out "crumbs" by talking to the press), just concerned that they might be."

And this your the basis for claiming "MANY OF US ARE ABOUT TO PERISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Give me a break.

And as for "trying hard not to overreact," I'm not trying hard to do anything - I'm actually DOING something about it by helping with the count. YOU claim you have "other priorities." Gee, where have we heard that before?

NGU.

[missouri dem]

123. I have volunteered to go to Ohionad am willing to go to Florida or

Anywhere else. But time is running out. Now is the time for Kerry to get involved.


Here is one reason:
County Prosecutor David Yost, the board's legal adviser, said he was pleased that Common Pleas Judge W. Duncan Whitney granted the temporary order. The board is seeking a permanent injunction to quash the recount request . . .

In the Delaware County case, the elections board wants to block a recount both before and after certification.

"To ask taxpayers to fund someone's political hobbyhorse when there's no possible chance of a different outcome seems to be an utter waste," Yost said. "There's better uses for that money in Delaware County and, I suspect, in other places around the state."

*more*

https://shop.dispatch.com/signin.asp?page=www.dispatch.... ;q>story=dispatch/2004/11/24/20041124-B7-03.html&msg=1®type=1

[OldLeftieLawyer]

94. Not at first, no, he doesn't

All you need is to hold up the electoral votes in one state, and the whole electoral system is put on ice.

You folks have GOT to read up on how the electoral process works. You'll save wear and tear on your beautiful and committed psyches.

[Solitaire]

51. I wonder why...

we aren't demonstrating?

The Ukranian's have more guts than we do?

:(

[ClassWarrior]

58. We need someone to organize that.

Our time might be better spent convincing MoveOn or UFPJ to organize a nationwide demonstration.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

67. Now that's a damn good idea!

Let's call on them now.

[ElementaryPenguin]

65. At this juncture, they certainly have more passion for democracy than

We do!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

95. Because .........

........... our election is not over.

Keep that in mind.

[Royal Observer]

90. Where do you live?

[LittleClarkie]

182. IT'S FALLING, THE SKY!!!

Oye shit.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

93. In reading these posts,

you're the only voice of reason I've seen so far.

Congratulations.

Excitable bunch, eh? I'd love to play poker with any of them.

[Jo March]

128. Even through my blinding rage, I have to agree with merh

We have to wait until the votes in Ohio are certified on the 6th. They have until the 6th.

So, bright and early on Dec. 7th, Kerry should stroll out and give a press conference. If not, he will have one very pissed off Democrat following him everywhere with a picket sign: "Turn the boat around NOW! Unconcede and Contest!"

I'll be a protest army of one.

Dammit. (again)

[masshole1979]

50. Email Kerry on behalf of your Mass. friends

Contact friends/family in Mass, and if they support the recount, too, offer to email Kerry on their behalf. Show them the email you intend to write (or use a variation of mine--though maybe shorter would be better).

It's not as though it requires a signature.

Here's what I wrote.

******
Please join the Ohio Democratic Party in endorsing the recount in Ohio, which risks being scuttled extra-constitutionally by the Republicans in that state without your support. The recount is necessary if we are to establish that additional Ganahana-style errors did not occur.

Please also speak out against the massive irregularities in the last election, and the need for reform now, specifically, nonpartisan and impartial handling of the vote, equal ballot access including reasonable wait times for voting, and voting technologies that can be easily recounted, audited, and are tamper-resistant and non-networked.

Finally, sir, please discourage speculation about 2008. We need to worry about 2004, 05, 06, and 07 before we can even get there. I am also sure a man of your wisdom would not risk the Democratic Party's hopes, or the public ridicule of your supporters, with an attempt at a second bite at the apple.

Thank you for your time.

Sincere regards

XXXXXX

[ElementaryPenguin]

66. Excellent!

:toast:

[vireo]

53. There's another thread about writing to Kerry

I think we should email him a link to this thread so that he might better appreciate how strongly we feel about this. The Dem grassroots are not taking this lying down and we don't expect our leaders to either (MSM reports to the contrary).

<on edit> Good idea, masshole!

[Patsy Stone]

70. Sent this to JK

Although it breaks my heart that you and Sen. Edwards lost, it would break my heart even more if you both just slinked away into the night.

If "Help is on the Way" the best time for it to arrive would be now.

Please do not feel that you would be labeled a "Sore Loserman" if your campaign stepped in. If you really intend to run in 2008, you will certainly do the DNC a favor by proving that in the face of defeat, you do not shirk your promises or your responsibilities to your supporters. More than a few people would come to your defense in this situation, I'm sure, especially if you were responding to the will of the people.

While the outcome won't change, the process needs to be held accountable. Count every vote. Win or Lose, count every vote.

Please, please, please use your GELAC money and help the Ohio Dems and the Greens/Libertarians. Although I do not know what the laws regarding this are, I hope you and your staff do, and are looking into the possibilities.

I suggest you look to the Ukraine, and Sen. Luger and Colin Powell's remarks on their election and the "outrage" regarding possible fraud and its legitimacy.

Happy Holidays and thanks,
*

[ElementaryPenguin]

73. Terrific message, PS! "Help is on the way" indeed!

Believe me, I still want to believe in the guy.

:shrug:

[leftchick]

72. "The Raw DeaL"!!

That is how I am thinking of him these days... :grr:

[ElementaryPenguin]

77. See..if he really walks away and leaves us hanging...

He certainly has NO future on the national scene.

[Razorback_Democrat]

79. It Will Be As If The Swifties Were Right

that he cuts and runs on us.

I don't want to think that!

Come on John

[Sideways]

74. My Inner Bitch Is Waiting For The Shit To Hit The Fan

Just wait folks.....this is not going quietly into the night....the shit will hit the fan and soon....


It will be a kablooie moment.:evilgrin:

[ElementaryPenguin]

78. I've been about as patient as I can be...

And now there better be some kind of fireworks, or else...I don't f*cking know what!

[Patsy Stone]

80. Here's to that "Inner Bitch"

It's looking a little like the bottom of the ninth with at least one out. I hope you're right. Really. I do. Really. Don't flake out now John-John.

[Jimmy D]

81. I think either Kerry or Edwards could do this.

But will they I think it is our only hope

[ElementaryPenguin]

83. I for one find it nervy of Kerry & Co. to leave all the work to Bev Harris

WTF? With all of their resources 50 million bucks, 17,000 lawyers, the plan is for them to just sit back and watch Bev and outmanned helpers duke it out with obstinate state officials, pretending to not be interested in the results. ???

:shrug:

[ClassWarrior]

84. So you don't know NUTHIN', by your own admission in post #71...

...but you claim to know the minds JK and his staff?? Wow. You wouldn't happen to be Karnak the Magnificent, would you?

NGU.

[politicasista]

85. Wake up Kerry/Edwards!

Follow through your promises that every vote will be counted. Don't let Bush and his cronies get away with this! If you all want to stand up to democracy, this is your ONLY chance.

[ElementaryPenguin]

87. Amen to that, comrade.

:toast:

[ElementaryPenguin]

86. Read Bev Harris' post in GD from this morning, CW!

You don't need to be Karnak to deduce that she isn't getting ANY support from Kerry's people - she even refers to it later on in the thread as "completely irresponsible."

[senseandsensibility]

97. I read that too, and got

very depressed. That's fifty million of OUR dollars he has that he could be using to help Bev out, and I want a refund if it's not used!!I gave everything I could to this campaign (both time and money) because Kerry said he would fight. This reminds me of that depressing period during August when he wasn't responding to the swiftboat crap. Those of us on the ground in the real world knew it was killing Kerry, but when we tried to scream "wake up!" many people on this board called us alarmists. We were right then; we're right now.:( But it gives me no pleasure to say so. Wake up, people!

[ElementaryPenguin]

99. I must say, as a big Kerry fan - this would be one helluva betrayal!

"We want our money back" should be our mantra. Doesn't seem like we should have to shame the Democratic Party into defending itself - but if we must - we will!

[ClassWarrior]

134. Link?

NGU.

[Royal Observer]

91. I'm afraid

that Kerry and Edwards don't live in the same world we do.

[ElementaryPenguin]

100. True dat.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

92. Relax

There's no need to get all het up about what's going on. John Kerry is powerless within the legal system right now, since the vote count in Ohio needs to be completed (and the judge's ruling was correct) before any challenge to it can be mounted. That's just black letter law - you can't alleged harm until you know the extent of the harm.

There's lots of time between now and December 13, 2004, when the electors meet to cast their votes.

All that has to happen in Ohio is for the people challenging to vote to find fraud significant enough for them to go back into court and get a restraining order, which would then preclude the Ohio electors from taking part in the December 13 meeting, which would put the entire electoral college on hold.

That, I think, is what the legal strategy is in Ohio. It's the only one that I see making sense and being viable.

So, all you folks who are upset about John Kerry "unconceding" (a concession speech, by the way, has no legal significance whatsoever - if you recall, Gore withdrew his concession to Bush in 2000 - so, that's a non-issue) or not getting involved or - this one is funny - not telling the world what his legal strategy is, well, I hope this information here helps to calm your souls and, if only for a while, restores your faith in John Kerry.

The Presidential election is far from over. Keep that in mind,

And, have a good Thanksgiving.

(History is going to be made in the next few weeks, I suspect.)

[FreeCajun]

96. KICK

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be right about that. Please?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

98. I am

and welcome to DU. It's a grand place.

[ElementaryPenguin]

103. Thanks for your excellent theory, Leftie...

But Florida needs to be confronted, for even more fraud seems to have occured there - and putting all of our eggs in the Ohio basket would seem a major gamble.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

107. No, it's just a smart utilization of resources

Once you've stopped the electoral process in one state (Ohio), you've effectively, functionally, and legally stopped it in the other 49. Then, you've bought time to investigate the other states - like Florida.

Relax. Things are going along as they must.

[Jo March]

133. "all het up" - ah, beautiful phrase! Haven't heard that in a long time

I am going to listen to the soothing sounds of Old Leftie Lawyer here on WDU as I kick back, relax and TRUST THE MAN I VOTED FOR to take care of business the "smart" way.

WDU - the voice of sanity with tonight's finest old school DU DJ, Old Leftie Lawyer. And now, here's a request from Arnheim in a red state, "You're No Good", dedicated to little georgie bush.

[Ugnmoose]

147. Great to have you on board Old Lefty

You have a wise legal mind and may well be onto something here. I think most of us at DU are unsophisticated when it comes to legal issues and planning. Let us speculate for a moment and say that they can get a TRO and hold up the electoral college, what are the scenarios that you see after that? Inquiring minds want to know. Oh and by the way - Happy Turkey Day to you also!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

157. The wildest scenario imaginable

I could imagine Ohio bringing everything into play.

As soon as Ohio is tied up in litigation, even if the request for the TRO is turned down, I envision suits being filed in Florida, New Mexico, Iowa, and possibly New Hampshire (with Nader as Plaintiff), just to keep it all in motion.

After that, I would anticipate any and all local (Republican-controlled) election boards filing countersuits, doing everything they can to go to the appellate courts, trying as hard as they can to throw monkey wrenchs into the Democratic strategy.

But, you see, once all of this is begun in a number of states, again, all the Democrats need is for just one court to agree with them. That's the beauty of the "shotgun" approach - just one state halted, electors hamstrung, and the electoral college is on ice.

See the beauty of that? Maybe the Republicans would prevail in every jurisdiction, but the odds are mightily against it.

After that, history being made as everything is delayed while votes are counted.

(See why being a Jesuit-trained litigator (something Kerry and I have in common) is more fun than sticking a sharp stick in your eye?)

Now, here's another scenario to consider: if January 20, 2005 comes, and no President has been elected and the matter is still in litigation, who's in charge?

(And, thank you for your kind words.)

[truehawk]

162. That it not what the law says

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/provisions.html
US Code Title 3 section 5

Determination of controversy as to appointment of electors

§ 5. If any State shall have provided, by laws enacted prior to the day fixed for the appointment of the electors, for its final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, by judicial or other methods or procedures, and such determination shall have been made at least six days before the time fixed for the meeting of the electors, such determination made pursuant to such law so existing on said day, and made at least six days prior to said time of meeting of the electors, shall be conclusive, and shall govern in the counting of the electoral votes as provided in the Constitution, and as hereinafter regulated, so far as the ascertainment of the electors appointed by such State is concerned.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

166. This is about appointing electors

That's not what's at issue here.

The Constitution specifies that electors must be appointed on the Tuesday after the first Monday in November. Presumably, that's all taken care of in all the states, but, it's irrelevant.

This is about the votes, not selecting electors.

[Ugnmoose]

193. Another ? for Old Leftie

Please describe for me what the legal process is if the Electoral College cannot be seated on December 13th? Who hears the case? Does it ultimately fall to the Congress or the Courts to adjudicate? Is it possible this could wind up again at The Supreme Court? What if fraud is established, what are the implication as far as the election is concerned, can the election be nullified? If so, do we re vote or is the election awarded to the other candidate? I know these are lots of questions but I think it is an interesting exercise in understanding how the electoral process works. And we thought the 2000 election was educational, this one might take it many steps beyond that.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

194. Not having researched the question,

I'll just give you my best guesses on these mighty fine questions.

If the electoral college cannot vote on December 13 because, let's say, the Ohio election is found to have potentially fatal errors, it would all fall within Federal jurisdiction, so my best guess is that the legal representatives of Shrub would head there immediately.

Courts adjudicate; Congress legislates. An important distinction to keep in mind about our tripartite form of government. (This, of course, was all thrown to hell when the Supreme Court legislated Shrub into office in 2000.)

Yes, the electoral issue would end up in the Supreme Court, and my theory is that it would end up there very quickly. All these matters would be expedited, as you might guess.

If fraud is found in, say, the Ohio ballots, I really don't know who'd take jurisdiction of that matter. I can easily see it being treated as a state matter. That would be really interesting.

Nullification is possible, I suppose, but I don't know. As I said, I've not done any research on this matter, and I don't think anyone has ever been confronted with a situation like this before. My experience is that courts will bend themselves into pretzels before allowing an election to be nullified. That's an awfully drastic remedy, the last one anyone wants.

I have a feeling this is what we lawyers like to call a "case of first impression," which means it's never happened before. That's why I've been saying I think we're about to see history being made.

Forgive me for not having more substantial and informed answers for you, but I think this is brand new territory for everyone. Keep in mind that the law is never as important as the procedure - that means the filing deadlines, the dates, the rules involved in carrying something through the courts. The law gets you in the courthouse, but, once inside, the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are of paramount importance.

Just hang on......

[Ugnmoose]

196. Thanks once again - just one more ?

Would there be any legal significance if the Dems allege fraud as opposed to just machine errors in counting votes? I would assume if the recount were to establish gross errors, sufficient to change the outcome then the issue would be moot. If however, fraud is alleged, but the recount is insufficient to change the outcome that becomes a horse of a very different color. I suppose the burden then falls on the Dems to prove fraud in Court where it may or may not be sustained. If it is sustained, I have heard somewhere that the electors for the state cannot be seated and that their electoral votes are not counted or they may be awarded to the opposition candidates. Any thoughts on this?

BTW, I realize that we are speculating here about very fine points of law that have never been raised before to our knowledge so best guessing may be all we can do.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

200. Where do I send my bill when we're done here?

OK, that was a joke.

You're using the term "fraud," but you can also consider 'gross negligence," especially in the case of malfunctioning voring machines. In the latter case, there would have to be compelling and provable evidence that the manufacturer knew that the machines' design was such that they would not function effectively and yet went ahead and set them up.

In that case, there's even a potential civil damages lawsuit, if the Democrats wanted to try to recover the costs of litigation. That's a VERY out-there speculation, but that sort of scenario has always been my specialty.

Fraud has to be alleged and proven before a recount can take place. If it's proven, and the winner doesn't change, that's it. It's all over. The burden is on the Democrats from the start, and if that recount happens, and the result isn't any different, the matter ends.

But, what you're thinking of about the electors (from Ohio) is my theory that if the Democrats can get a judge in Ohio to issue a temporary restraining order against the electors going to the meeting of all the electors on December 13, where all the votes would be cast, that would, conceivably, put the whole electoral process on hold, because - and I sure as hell would argue this - without the entire electoral college assembled and voting, there can be no legitimate election of a President.

But, the elector matter comes after the allegations of fraud are made, with the proper and provable evidence of fraud and/or gross negligence alleging to the court that the votes in Ohio have not been properly handled.

I know this is all terribly confusing, and I apologize if my explanations aren't as easy to understand as they might be. It's a very complicated, tricky situation, and I'm trying to give you the simplest framework so as to answer your questions.

Now, about that bill..................... ;)

[Ugnmoose]

214. Here's where you can send the bill

www.johnkerry.com :-)

Seriously, thanks again for your wisdom and insight.

[seito]

154. Thanks for your insight

I agree that we all need to relax. I trust John Kerry. There is no need for him to be in the media spotlight now. Let them finish the count in Ohio and we will see what happens next...

[Ugnmoose]

102. This whole concession thing is baffling

It just doesn't seem to make sense unless:
1. the fix was in and Dems are in cohoots with them
2. Dems knew they were had and that they could not prove it (how could they know this so soon after the results came in)
3. They are laying an ambush. With each passing day this gets to be less and less likely.

Asuming the likely scenario which is number two, what would they have lost by putting up a vigorous contest. After all they had the money and they had the lawyers mobilized. Something here just doesn't pass the smell test.

[FreeCajun]

104. Ambush?

I keep thinking about the end of Lord of the Rings where they decide to march on the Black Gate as a distraction because Frodo and Sam are already deep within Mordor, near where the One Ring was created...

;)

People can dream, can't they?

[ElementaryPenguin]

106. If he were to engineer a major ambush, I'd certainly

Forgive Kerry in a heartbeat! Please, let it be so!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

109. Before you forgive him, I'd like to know what he's done wrong

He's acted properly all the way.

What's to forgive?

[seito]

152. Thank You n/t

[ElementaryPenguin]

105. I think you've got the possible scenarios with this thing pegged, Ugnmoose

I can't believe this whole thing is about Kerry not wanting to look like a bad sport.

:shrug:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

110. Then don't. n/t

[Ugnmoose]

146. And don't forget that Kerry is a former prosecutor

I have also heard he is a tenacious fighter. I can't see him going down this easily. That is why this just doesn't compute. If I were Kerry and I really wanted to nail these bastards, I would have laid a trap for them, knowing full well that Rove had to march right in. As I see it Bushco had two choices to assure his re-selection. First he could have staged another 9-11 and declared martial law, postponing the elections until he was sure he had regained the popular support enough to win. Or he could go a much safer route and that was to rig the vote. Kerry had to know this. Hell everyone here at DU knew it. So, if he knew it, why didn't he prepare himself for it. I guess it is possible that he could not do anything about it. Although this is doubtful given how many people want to hand these Neocon assholes. Someone was bound to want to cooperate in some kind of sting operation. Or perhaps he did prepare and we have yet to see the results. If this a stealth operation it is going to be a beaut, because it has been concealed so well. By the way, given the wholesale disenfranchisement of minority voters, why is it that we don't hear any screaming from the ususal suspects like Jesse Jackson or Rev. Al Sharpton. Hell Jackson even went on cable t.v. the other day to declare Bush the winner "fair and square". I tell you the whole thing smells fishy.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

108. Concessions are meaningless

That's what you're smelling - your brain's working overtime on the basis of misinformation.

Concessions have no legal substance, and are simply acts of graciousness.

The concession speech and Kerry's going underground were brilliantly timed. But, I'm not going to say here why. Just, believe me, they were.

[Karenca]

112. OLD LEFTY LAWYER.......

You have given me hope

[OldLeftieLawyer]

118. And you, Karenca ...........

.. have affirmed my faith in the willingness of people to believe.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Karenca]

136. OLDLEFTIST......

Happy TG to you too!

I know we're all impatient, cause we waited for 4 lonnnnnnnng years.

Your posts make alot of sense..Thank you :))

[ElementaryPenguin]

116. For the past 2 weeks I've been telling people much of what

You're now telling us. Believe me - I WANT to believe there is something afoot here. Bev Harris' experience in Florida has either sobered me up - or caused me to question my faith. Again, I want to believe your assessment is correct.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

121. Then believe,

if you want to. It's much nicer, believing, and, if I'm wrong, we're simply right back where we are tonight, only wiser.

Believe. It's good for you.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Ladyhawk]

171. "Faith is believing in what you know isn't true." - Mark Twain

I'm not big into faith. We'll all see for ourselves, I guess. At least this isn't one of those annoying metaphysical questions no one has an answer to.

[BreakForNews]

111. What Vote Fraud? - by Bev Harris, BlackBoxVoting

Below is the latest from Bev Harris as compiled from her DU Posts by
BreakForNews.com (a founder member, by the way of the eVote Truth Alliance -along with BBV and Scoop)

http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/WhatVoteFraud.htm

Dems Pocket $52 Million,
CNN Ignores Evidence,
and Officials Stonewall...

What Vote Fraud?

by Bev Harris, BlackBoxVoting.org
in posts on Democratic Underground

http://www.BreakForNews.com, 24th Nov 2004

We saw Ukrainian presidential election coverage on CNN last night. It was surreal They were saying that in the Ukraine elections aren't transparent. 'Scuse me?

This, after CNN said they weren't interested in filming 59 orange-tagged records from Volusia, Florida showing that our elections have not been at all transparent, and are missing one-third of the key documents entirely. Psst. Don't look here. Look there.

The screen shots of the NETWORKED (!) Volusia County GEMS server alone, along with the logs showing attempts to access it remotely, should have hit the national press.

According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.

I showed them to CNN cameramen yesterday, along with 59 orange-tagged poll tapes that were missing signatures, zero tapes, sometimes missing results altogether! No interest in getting a shot of that smoking gun at all.

We intereviewed poll workers. On camera. Showed them the poll tapes we were given by Volusia County. To a person, they said, with great concern, "That is NOT what we submitted to the county."

One remembered the results on his poll tape. What he remembered, before ever seeing the results tape or hearing what was on our copy, was not the same. His memory for a precinct with a tad over 400 voters had 60 more votes for Kerry. Of course, that's not legally binding, since he hadn't written it down.

And don't forget that in Volusia, poll workers were told to bring their memory cards and poll tapes off to 'drop offs' or 'depots', and it was there that the modem-ing occurred. We have no information whatsoever on who was in those depots, or what they were doing, or what equipment was there.

Meahwhile a completely irresponsible Kerry Campaign holds on to a $52 million litigation war chest accumulated from citizen donations for that purpose.

If they were the slightest bit interested in either voting system integrity or actually winning, they would have litigated the Black Box Voting records requests to apply some real muscle into prompt disclosure of audit materials, at least in Ohio and Florida. Failure to comply with sunshine laws is against the law, yet a citizens group like Black Box Voting cannot claim legal urgency, forcing immediate compliance, in the same way that a campaign can. There is no question that if the campaign had enforced the sunshine laws, analyzing the audit data, two things would have happened:

1) records would have been produced
2) auditing would have been enabled, and we all know that would have produced hard evidence of irregularities.

You have to wonder. The purpose of our audits is to get some real answers, so we don't have to wonder any more.....

Continues at:
http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/WhatVoteFraud.htm

[ElementaryPenguin]

117. This just isn't making sense, John Kerry! Leaving it all to Bev Harris?

:wtf:

[fearnobush]

120. This one here is a Gem. Thanks Kerry -- for letting our votes get stolen.

The Kerry attorney in Volusia, by the way, came by but asked not a single question, never asked to look at any evidence, and told one of the producers of Votergate that he thought Black Box Voting was just here to "stir up trouble."

Ohh, and look at this:

The audit data we obtained in Volusia County is another matter. Here, we have established plenty of evidence sufficient to take an election into contest.

Volusia County, by itself, may have put some 30,000 presidential votes in question.

[wrate]

130. So you only need to do this in 100 other precincts and you got

yourself a re-election and a mandate!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

122. So far, there's no litigation in Florida

That's why the Kerry campaign donations haven't been used. It would be a violation of the law to put that money into a private individual's project.

When litigation arises - as it most certainly will - the $$$ will be there. I am certain of it.

[s-cubed]

129. GROUPTHINK

I"ve read this whole thread, and it reminds me of the groupthink I used to see where I once worked, and the groupthink that goes on in the wh, with no dissenters on the premises.
Yes, I'm disappointed that Kerry has not been more forthcoming, but he was reputed to be a very good prosecuter. A good prosecutor never tips his hand too soon.
Also, in the Senate, he investigated the BCCI and Iran-Contra affairs. He knows that public opinion is part of the battle, not just evidence.
By waiting, by lying low, by having those 17,000 lawyers working, he's done exactly the right thing.
By now, there is so much evidence that has come out, that wasn't known before, that when he is ready to make a move, he'll do it. And the timing will be right.
I can't wait for the explosion: I'm grateful for the Ukraine fraud, because all those self-righteous words will get thrown right back at * and the gutless MSM.
I'm sorry that the legalities make it impossible to help Bev now, but why do you think he's set up a litigation fund if he doesn't plan to litigate?
Take a deep breathe, believe, have hope, and keep working in whatever way you can: e-mails, flyers, stickers, letters to the editor, analyzing data if that is your thing, whatever. Action feels better. And listen to the Old Leftie: he might be getting it straight from the horse's mouth! ;)

[ClassWarrior]

135. Yup, there are some people who have been working hard all day...

...to rip down Kerry. Makes you wonder what their motive is, doesn't it?

Never Give Up.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

141. Why a litigation fund?

Why, to finance litigation, of course. But, litigation is what comes after investigation. It's just a sequence, that's all. When it's ripe, the fruit falls.

And, proving that the 21st century hasn't delivered any of us from the sins of generalizations and gender stereotyping, this OldLeftieLawyer sends you a big "way to go" for your clear thinking, but must inform you that she's an OldLeftieLawyerChick.

[librechik]

137. what about the Volusia County lawsuit?

for any interested

Case InformationCase Style: SUSAN ROSE PYNCHON v. VOLUSIA COUNTY CANVASSING BOARD, ET AL

Case Number: 2004 11437 CIDL Category: Other Circuit Civil
Case Type: Circuit Civil Filing Date: 11/23/2004
Case Status: Open Related Cases: NO


Venue Information - 10 - C. McFerrin Smith, IIIProcessing Location: DeLand Court Location: DeLand


Disposition Information - PendingDisposition Date: Jury Trial: NO
Appealed: NO Contested: NO

UCN: 642004CA011437XXXXDL

read more here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2746044

[crispini]

124. I agree. The Ukrainians are standing up and in the streets

because their candidate, their leader, is crying FRAUD and even that he was poisoned. If Kerry leads, we will follow -- if Kerry called for a general strike, we'd be out there -- but without leadership, I am beginning to think that this is all simply going to fade into nothingness.

I'd like to think that KE have a Cool Secret Plan, but I haven't seen any overwhelming evidence of that so far. If I'm wrong I'll be the happiest camper on earth.

[proudtobeadem]

173. Whatever plan KE has, and I'm sure they do, they are not

going to tell the world here. Especially the other side. I'm sure the other side has a whole team of people scouring these threads daily (on all types of sites like this) -even before the election even more now . How do you think a DU'er got a friendly little visit at 9 pm from the secret service?? Whatever is going to happen we'll find out about it when everyone else does, they are going to hold whatever aces they have up their sleeve close to them until the time is right.
Frankly I think it was a very thoughtful thing Kerry did by sending us that video, I think it was a message to Chill, everything is under control. I think his advisors probably didn't want him to do that but he went against them because he saw the agony we're going through. (I don't know if it was a good idea -now the other side knows something's up)
Also it drives me crazy to hear people say all that BS about him "selling out", skull and bones etc... He must know that if he leaves us hanging his political future is over, as president or senator. Nobody would vote for him next time. This is it-this is his ONLY chance to be president -ever period. He knows that.
With the exception of re-election (presidential).
Also, this man has wanted to be President for practically his whole life, -you don't give up on that that easily or "sell out" a lifetime dream come true.
This is not to mention, as has been posted before, that he is a fighter, he was a prosecuter ,-will set up case carefully, he can't stand those %$&$#@'s, and I don't think Edwards would let him give up.
And one more thing, all of the people who keep disappointing us with BS announcements like "the election was won fair and square " etc..
I am sure they already know what is going on, but have been asked to keep quiet. They don't want the media to get warmed up.
That being said, I still think we should keep up the pressure on the media to cover this because when he contests the election it will look better for him if his supporters have been complaining all along, and therefore the media -hopefully won't be that hard on him. I HOPE I'm right on this last point.
Finally I think we should TRUST the man we voted for I know I am. :)

[seito]

187. Nice Post , proudtobeadem

That is what many of us think. Now is not the time for emotion.

[proudtobeadem]

192. Thank you, yes now is not the time to get emotional, now is the time to

keep working and expose these ***tards.

[Justathought]

125. Yea unless thee forget on this Thanksgiving eve....

Gore was crucified for battling all the way. Although we cheered him on, we destroyed any opportunity for the man to survive in politics after the debacle of 2000. I admire Kerry for not becoming a slave to the media onslaught and destruction of his character more than it had been in the campaign before the election. Kerry has a larger voice because did not cave into another debacle as Gore did in 2000. It should not be left on Kerry's shoulder to bear the burden of proving fraud .... it has to be the voters themselves. If they sit quietly behind the computer screen, and become the armchair quarter back, nothing will be done. Kerry has not given up on us as indicated in his interview but is the best support we can get to help us quit griping and do what we can as citizens to make the fraud issues come to light. :shrug:

[stillcool]

131. Wow, it happens here too.

This reminds me of the JK/JE blogs pre-election where everybody knew what John should be doing, saying, not saying, appearing etc. That said, I'm pretty bummed tonight myself, feeling all is lost. Not an uplifting piece of news anywhere, and believe me I've looked. My advice to myself is this-Miss Stillcool, this is YOUR life and the choices are YOURS as to what you do with it. While there are sooooo many important issues and scary stuff out there, sometimes you have to let go, and just do the next right thing....for you. Start at home, and be really kind to yourself. Make it about you, and bloom where you're planted.

[bleever]

132. Voices of calm and reason here: thanks to OldLeftieLawyer and

ClassWarrior.

There is a process here, and although it's easy to think the election is over when the voting is done, that's just not the case.

IMO the worst move would be the premature one. Meanwhile, the conversation has broken in to the mass media via last night's CNN report on FL, the growing number of other MSM mentions of glitches and discrepancies, and the incredible situation in the Ukraine coupled with the adminstration's response ("Trust the exit polls! Uncover the fraud!").

OldLeftieLawyer's observation on holding up the electors in one state to put the whole process on ice is the kind of detailed thinking that has to go in to halting this slow-motion stick-up.

Bless you all for your passion; with patience and faith we may yet get what we're fighting for.

[ClassWarrior]

138. Thanks for the kudos, but when one thread is over 100 posts long...

...and more than half of them are by one person trying to sow dissent, it's pretty obvious what's up.

NGU.

[bleever]

140. The recent influx of naysayers here at DU might mean a lot of things,

but one thing it doesn't mean is that nothing's happening. ;)

[ClassWarrior]

145. Thass right...

:)

Never Give Up.

[DianeD]

148. I Agree with OldLeftieLawyer

During the weekend after the election, I was standing in line at the grocery and saw a Time or a Newsweek magazine (can’t remember which) that had the whole election story in it, with a big picture of b*sh on the cover. I was very depressed, discouraged and wanted to move to Canada. While I was waiting in line, I was paging thru the magazine and they were comparing the two campaigns and men.

Somewhere in it I read that one of Kerry’s daughters was reluctant to join the campaigning, but finally agreed to get on board with it. At one place, someone yelled out “baby killer” and it said she was so hurt she cried and said “I’m afraid b*sh is going to steal the election.”

It then said that Kerry put her arms around her and said “Don’t worry, I have 17,000 lawyers. I’m not going to let him steal the election.”

That same weekend is when I found this forum, and have been reading it every day, all my spare time and then some! I’ve been wanting to share those words of John Kerry to his daughter, because they have comforted me and hopefully they will encourage all of us still.

[Sideways]

185. Hi DianeD Welcome To The Playground!

:loveya:

[nolabels]

151. Not on your......

Yea, relax, watching the world go to hell in a handbasket should be fun x(


U.N. says conflict in Iraq is 'wreaking havoc' on children
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/328/world/U_N_says_conflict_in_Iraq_is_w:.shtml

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man
by John Perkins


American Centurion comes clean; sets example for us all,
November 17, 2004
Reviewer:Follow the Money (Massachusetts USA)
I got Confessions of an Economic Hit Man yesterday and finished reading it today. It's a vital personal story that illuminates an entire global system. A system based on greed, power, and control. Others before Perkins have warned of this system, but usually not from an insider's perspective. If you're interested in more details David Korten has done the best job documenting how rich powerful corporations with the help of governments get richer at the expense of the poor who get poorer. This isn't a new idea. But in today's world, the major media refuse to report this story. Perkins understands the essence of the problem: empire, oppression, inequality, and greed can seem to bring benefits to some people in the short term ... but in the long term we all loose, even the rich. We are all spiritually harmed by the lies and rationalizations. We are all put at risk when the world becomes more polarized into haves and have-nots. Our humanity is undermined when we benefit from that which hurts others. Undoubtedly most perpetrators have convinced themselves that what they do is OK and even that they'll be able to avoid consequences. Their money and power will insulate them in their exclusive gated communities. John Perkins' real feat in this book is not exposing a corrupt system, but in providing an example of one person who was able to look into his life with a deep honesty and realize it was hurting him as well as prospects for the future of all people. All of us can learn from his awakening. Does driving a big SUV make us more secure? Happier? A better person? A better citizen?
(snip)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1576753018/ref=dp_item-information_0/002-6043100-2158414?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

[wrate]

139. You have to keep a cool head or you're no good for this fight.

J. Kerry knows the law and knows how to use it to his advantage. You have to trust him. If impatience is driving you nuts you must do something else. Impatience will only hurt your cause.

[politicasista]

143. Thanks for the encouragement.

;-)

[ClassWarrior]

144. I fear this poster has no interest in fighting this fight.

At least not on our side. Considering how fervently he/she is fighting against our side on this thread.

NGU.

[PATRICK]

149. Actually I was hoping for more

than another straight up and take it on the chin defense against the telegraphed punches of the GOP crooks. Our team threw the voters uselessly against the fraud machine and muzzled media. They went through all the motions fighting yesterday's strategies, less than effectively, I might add.

Personally, in my imagination, I would hope for better from all the talent and conviction of the best of America than this sorry charade of a political contest and crazy shell game. Then muddle on optimistically into more blood, crusading destruction and slavery.

It may be coming because our team DID know and planned, or maybe it won't because no one was prepared for the inevitable. If they want to belatedly and grimly storm the walls of this crap AFTER suddenly waking up, I, we will follow. America has not begun to pay the piper for all this. If someone is trying to push off the truth and freedom deficit to another generation, I am NOT willing to follow that lead.

[Chasing Dreams]

150. Patience, and let's force the MSM to come to us

Kerry is running the risk of having lawsuits thrown out due to the Campaign's nonparticipation.

The key with the MSM is to force them to come to us, not a desperate attempt to rush things for an artifical Dec 13 electoral deadline we probably can't make.

So, here's yet another plan:

The Kerry/Edwards campaign quietly joins the winnable/proveable lawsuits, and provides desperately needed cash. But no statement or news conference. Nothing.

Let the MSM and republicans find out on their own and DEMAND an explanation. After letting them stew for a couple of days with the entire MSM and the Republicans howling, Kerry and Edwards should hold a news conference -- with Bev, univerity researchers, and others in the know -- and lay out the case with their star witnesses. The coverage/audience will be tremendous.

[liam97]

153. liam97

Why not stage a mass sit-in in front of Kerry's mansion? Just as in the Ukraine

[brindis_desala]

156. let's stop kidding ourselves

If you are all convinced that there was fraud, and the evidence is pretty compelling, why are you waiting for Kerry to stick his neck out when it's obvious he doesn't intend to. He hasn't lifted a finger to help Bev Harris and frankly I don't know what his 17,000 lawyers could be doing that's more important. Time is passing. Stop guessing about what the leadership is thinking and get coordinated. There must be politically active Democrats in OHIO and Florida to organize a two pronged campaign balanced between legal challenges and civil demonstrations. This is it folks, if we're passionate about retrieving the ballot box it's time for us to be the grown ups. At the least the MSM should be flooded with letters and phone calls NOW because once you've let them pooh pooh exit polling you've lost your best barometer for sniffing the rot.
There was time when the rest of world followed America's example now we get embarrassed about participatory democracy by UKRAINE.

[pat_k]

167. Absolutely!!!

Absolutely!!! We must build the bandwagon. The candidate may or may not get on board. But if the bandwagon is big enough attract members of Congress and the Senate, and they object to, and even reject electors from one or more states because of overwhelming evidence of systematic discrimination...

Sure, it's a long shot. The ONLY way it will happen is if it is clear that they MUST take the moral position and uphold our American values. We are the governed. It is up to us to make it crystal clear that any election for which we have evidence of systematic vote suppression, intentional or not, cannot be a measure of our will. It is up to us to make it clear that We Do NOT Consent.

The We the People Do Not Concede declaration (see also JPEG flyer wedemandscrollparch.jpg in http://unioncountyfordemocracy.org/files ) and talking points document

[OldLeftieLawyer]

158. There's no such thing as a "winnable/proveable lawsuit"

[Chasing Dreams]

168. I wasn't specific enough, but you are ignoring the main point

We are now seeing lawsuits and recount requests in Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, New Hampshire, Nevada, the list goes on. I believe we have (or have at least the prospect of obtaining) hard evidence against the fascists.

These are potentially winnable either in court or the court of public opinion. Almost all of the court battles to come are potentially winnable because we have the PROOF. But court challenges by non-Kerry groups could get thrown out en masse if Repuke judges use the lame excuse that they (Cobb, Bednarik, Nader, Others) have no chance of winning and are "frivolous".

See Spotbird's thread: OHIO JUDGE GRANTS A TRO AGAINST THE GREENS RECOUNT EFFORT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x76468

Kerry has to join the lawsuits now...but I still say he should do so quietly and let the MSM wait to hear from him. By the time there's a chorus of idiots questioning Kerry's motives and silence, he'll be good and ready to come forward with hard evidence and witnesses in a press conference offensive we won't soon forget.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

169. Nothing's been filed yet

Without final counts in any states certified, no causes of action can be filed. It was tried, and failed, in Ohio.

I saw that decision in Ohio, and the judge was right. If you'd read what I've posted all over this thread, you'll see why. I've taken the time to explain carefully and in detail that laymen can understand exactly what I think the legal theories and strategies could be in this recount effort.

There are no lawsuits. Kerry has to do nothing.

Let the people question his "motives and silence." Who gives a damn? It's irrelevant.

Listen, see if this resonates for you:

Suppose you're charged with first-degree murder. You're in a death penalty state. You retain me as your attorney.

Would you think it would be wise, judicious, or even sane of me to make public exactly how I planned to defend you?

Of course it wouldn't.

Just because you don't see anything doesn't mean it's not there.

Go read my previous posts. It's all there.

People really shouldn't try to practice law without licenses. It's just never a good idea.

[Chasing Dreams]

172. I'm not disagreeing with the premise that we have to wait until

the appropriate time, when votes are certified and legal challenges can be filed.

But I do disagree with your "it only takes one state" notion on political (not legal) grounds. I think the Repukes and their state judges are fully prepared to block, delay, and otherwise impede the individual state challenges. Like 2000, this will end with the Supremes. Ultimately, we will need MOUNTAINS of evidence in MANY states so that even the Supremes look crooked if they side with *

So I want Kerry to be silent for a while longer. Until the evidence is ready to go.

Your murder analogy is great. But let's suppose I am somebody famous like Claus von Bülow. As I recall, his case was tried in the media and he ultimately "won". The case before us is as high profile as they come, and yes, we will have to win the first great media battle. That's why Kerry, an expert hunter, should wait until he's got both barrels loaded and then come out blazing. :)

[truehawk]

197. I think you should read this

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/docs/ohio/Rios/order.pdf

[truehawk]

198. under the safe harbor provision of 3 U.S.C. § 5 no further challenge to th

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO
WESTERN DIVISION
Anita Rios, et al., Case No. 3:04CV7724
Plaintiffs,
v. ORDER
J. Kenneth Blackwell,
Defendant.
On November 22, 2004, several plaintiffs, including the candidates for the Presidency of the United
States of the Green Party, David Cobb, and Libertarian Party, Michael Badnarik (“candidate plaintiffs”),
filed a complaint seeking a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction. Plaintiffs ask for an order
requiring the defendant, Kenneth Blackwell, the Secretary of State of Ohio, to take appropriate measures
to ensure that a recount of the ballots cast on November 2, 2004, commences and proceeds in such a
manner as to be completed by December 7, 2004, the date Ohio’s electors will be certified for the
Electoral College.

Snip

Absent such showing, neither candidate could be harmed irreparably if the recount, if such were
to occur,

went beyond December 7, 2004, the date for appointment of Ohio’s electors. This is true even

though under the safe harbor provision of 3 U.S.C. § 5 no further challenge to the outcome of the

presidential election can thereafter be made.

Without a showing of irreparable injury, the plaintiffs cannot prevail.

Cincinnati Sub-Zero
Products, Inc. v. Augustine Medical, Inc., 800 F. Supp. 1549, 1557 (S.D. Ohio, 1992)

Snip

In light of the foregoing, it is
ORDERED THAT plaintiffs’ motion for a temporary restraining order and preliminary
injunction be, and the same hereby is denied.
So ordered.
/s/ James G. Carr
James G. Carr
United States District Judge

[OldLeftieLawyer]

201. They filed prematurely

The case wasn't ripe. There was no case or controversy as long as the count wasn't final.

Without a final count, they could not allege irreparable injury.

So, the judge did the exact right thing.

As I've said, practicing law without a license will get you in sticky trouble.

[Chasing Dreams]

205. That practicing law line is starting to grate on me,

but let's assume for a moment that you are right and know more than the rest of us.

What should Kerry do to try obtain an electoral majority in TIME? And please, don't send me to another thread, complain that you've said it before, rely on the Repuke Congress/Delay/Hastert, or that you won't give away the strategy.

Thank you.

[Sideways]

210. You Are Starting To Grate On Me

Here a couple of days and you have a stinking attitude? Where the FUCK are your manners?

Leftie is a professional attorney and you are challenging her? Hooey. You stink.

[Chasing Dreams]

213. Manners?! Excuse me...

but I'm not the one putting down others about not having certain expertise, or being new to the neighborhood, or throwing around the F word to somebody I just met.

It turns out that most of us here agree about this election (or lack thereof). Most new DUers like me knew from 7 pm eastern on November 2, when * had the family photo op and suddenly began to roll up one surprise after another, that something was seriously out of whack.

Yeah, I got frustrated by Lefty putting me down as part of the debate, especially when my point was political rather than legal (although I admit they are intertwined). But I used 'please' and 'thank you' even in frustration, and make no apologies for manners. But there is something far larger at stake here -- our ability as a People to continue to have discussions like these anywhere.

You see, Sideways, after the MSM quashed their reporters thousands of people like me, staring Facism straight in the face, went on a near desperate search for information and truth. DU and other progressive blogs/sites are IT, the last bastion of real news until the story breaks big time, or until we are shut down by Ashcroft's cronies.

In the long run we can only win by forging majority opinion in our favor despite the MSM, and I would suggest to you and other long time DUers that the potential benefits of bringing new people into the fold are far, far greater than the transactions costs of dealing with expanded membership, and even the potential risk that some newcomers are spies. Indeed, once we starting trying to chase newcomers out or think we are somehow better because we've been here longer or whatever, then we become THEM.

[truehawk]

206. That was not the judges finding

The judge found that they could not be harmed by not declaring the results of the recount until after the deadline to choose electors because in no scenario would either the Green or Libertarian Candidate's status as losers of the election change with a change of electors.

Kerry or Edwards could make case for an expedited declaration of the results by Dec 1, because their status could conceivably change, especially since Blackwell had originally said that the results would be 'certified" on Dec 1.

[spooked]

155. ELEMENTARY PENGUIN...YOU'RE THE BEST!!!

This is the BEST post I've read on DU in weeks! I am still hoping, praying that Kerry/Edwards will DO THE RIGHT THING!!!

God I wish your message could get through to them.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too.

[angrydemocrat]

159. Trust Me Everyone......

....OldLeftieLawyer is right. And for those who have turn tails and run off in disbelief like a chicken with their head cut off :scared: all I can say is you will be in for a big suprize when the shit hits the fan. So believe what you want we can't make you believe any different but when all this blows up :nuke: you will see. I'm beginning to think you non believers don't know who Kerry is or what he stands for or you wouldn't have all the doubt that you have.

[jdog]

161. I don't think we can assume for sure

that Kerry is making the right decision, whatever his strategy. But anyway, let's not pretend that we can move forward in any realastic way without a leader for us to lend our support to. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't someone who could fit that role reading what's posted on these sites. Kerry should lead us in this fight, regardless of the "political consequences" to him - because it's the right thing to do. All this strategizing and speculation should be behind us at this point in the game. Kerry needs to play or get off the f-ing court!

[pat_k]

202. If We the People are incapable of standing up for ourselves, there ...

>let's not pretend that we can move
>forward in any realastic way without
>a leader for us to lend our support to.

If We the People are incapable of standing up for ourselves, there is even more to fear than I thought.

Sorry folks, this one is up to us.

Kerry may or may not be doing anything, but this is no longer about his candidacy or victory, it is about rejecting dangerous thinking and propaganda and embracing and standing up for a few simple truths and simple moral positions.

--------------------------------------
--------------------------
>>>Notion to challenge<<<
We are trapped and limited by the "letter of the law" (e.g., the margin of victory puts the election "outside the zone of litigation" or "they have all the judges").

>>>Simple truth; moral position<<<
We the People, through our representatives, have defined our election laws to ensure that election results reflect OUR will. If, in any state, there is a reasonable doubt that the election results reflect the will of the voters, and application of the law fails to provide a remedy that eliminates the doubt, then We the People must demand a political remedy; one that trumps all legalisms and cynical misuse of our courts.

The law is intended to serve our will, not thwart it. We can never again allow a "technical" or "legal" argument trump reality as we did in 2000.
--------------------------------------
------------------------
>>>Notion to challenge<<<
The burden of proof is on us. We must find and correct enough "glitches" to change the result.

>>>Simple truth; moral position<<<
The voting systems and practices used in the conduct of this past election are so clearly flawed that the results in nearly every state are wide open to corruption by systematic vote suppression, data manipulation, human and machine error, and consequently, willful fraud. Demonstrable errors and anomalous patterns of result have rendered all "official" tallies suspect. More tragically, the systems and processes implemented by "experts" now make it impossible for us to rule out corruption without further investigation and audit.

When you have suspect results, there are two possibilities:

1. The results reflect the will of the voters.

2. The results are contrary to the will of the people.

And you have two choices:

A. Accept the results.

B. Reject the results.

Our founding principle, that our leaders serve only with the consent of the governed, dictates that we minimize the chance of 2-A, accepting results that are contrary to the will of the people, therefore, we must have a "presumption of bad results," and the burden is on the state to prove the results to be good.

This is analogous to the presumption and burden in criminal law. In that case, our principles dictate that we minimize the chance that we convict the innocent, therefore we have a "presumption of innocence, " and the burden in on the state to prove guilt. (See http://unioncountyfordemocracy.org/files/election2004_burden_of_ proof.htm).

The preservation of our government demands that we have confidence in our elections. With the current systems and processes, we cannot achieve that confidence without further investigation and audit. The moral burden must now be on each state to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that their results are accurate and lawfully obtained. There is no other patriotic option.
--------------------------------------
------------------------
>>>Notion to challenge<<<
Once the electors in a state are appointed, that's it. There is nothing we can do.

>>>Simple truth; moral position<<<
The electoral votes will be counted in Congress on January 6th, 2005. This count is not simply a ministerial duty. Congress has a constitutional duty to independently judge the validity of the electoral votes from every state. As stated by the member of Congress who introduced the Electoral Count Act in 1887 (and quoted by Justice Breyer, dissenting, in Bush v. Gore):

"The power to judge of the legality of the votes is a necessary consequent of the power to count. The existence of this power is of absolute necessity to the preservation of the Government."

If we are to preserve our government, the members of Congress must do their duty and reject electors appointed pursuant to discriminatory or unreliable election results. If we fail to demand this, we sentence ourselves to year after year of elections that are incapable of measuring our will, where promises that "we won't make the same mistakes next time" are never kept because there are no consequences for conducting elections that yield discriminatory and unreliable results.
--------------------------------------
------------------------
>>>Notion to challenge<<<
If the electors from a state are rejected, we are disenfranchising all those people. We can't do that.

>>>Simple truth; moral position<<<
There is no constitutional guarantee of participation in the electoral college. Congress can reject unlawfully appointed electors and in fact has a duty to do so; a duty they failed to carry out on January 6th, 2001. (for more on that, you might want to look at http://www.unioncountyfordemocracy.org/files/Jan6doc.htm)

If an election's results have been corrupted by discrimination or other problems, or lack the transparency required to have confidence in the results, who are you disenfranchising by rejecting them? If the results were obtained through discriminatory practice, or if you can't be sure, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the results reflect the will of the people in the state, you have as much chance of "disenfranchising" by accepting those results. Many morally responsible citizens won't even want their electors counted if they are tainted.

When people understand that their electors will be barred from participation in the electoral college if their state fails to conduct fair elections that employ processes and systems that instill confidence in the results, they may finally be motivated to demand and implement the changes necessary. When elections in a state are discriminatory or cannot be audited, it is not only the election officials who are responsible. The citizens who have tolerated the problems also bear responsibility and must bear the consequences.
--------------------------------------
------------------------
>>>Notion to challenge<<<
Wasn't it wonderful how determined people were to cast their vote? Waiting for hours! It warms the heart.

>>>Simple truth; moral position<<<
A long wait is a defacto poll tax (time is money) -- a very steep poll tax. If these poll-tax-lines and other barriers to voting are correlated with racial, socio-economic, or partisan status, they are discriminatory. It doesn't matter why the lines occurred. Only the findings of unacceptable barriers, disparately applied, matter. The results of a discriminatory election are unacceptable. Period. Assertions that "we'll fix it next time" are not acceptable.
--------------------------------------
------------------------
>>>Notion to challenge<<<
If the results declare a winner by a large margin, discrimination and other problems are "outside the zone of litigation."

>>>Simple truth; moral position<<<
If you accept the notion that a large margin of victory puts the election "outside the zone of litigation," then you accept the notion that such a state is completely free to discriminate with no risk of consequence. This is an absurd position. No matter what the margin of victory, the results of a discriminatory election are unacceptable. We cannot continue to tolerate the intolerable. We cannot continue to tolerate the toleration of the intolerable.
--------------------------------------
------------------------

[kerstin]

175. I agree. Remember - "just watch."

[s-cubed]

170. Kerry is just waiting for the right time to make his move

This was just posted by Joseph Cannon, a blogger who usually talks sense and gets news quicly:

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com

"Kerry: I've just heard from one of the most noteworthy soldiers in his campaign "army" (not a general, but not just a grunt) that the senator does not consider this fight over"

Trust the man: he's smart.

[ever_green]

160. I agee too.

We need to face the facts.

[truehawk]

164. Time to Sue Kerry and the DNC to get them to Fight

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x77714

They raised money for the recount, we need them to get in there with their standing and our money and spend it on the recount.

[pick_a_dilly]

174. ya chickenHawk . . . and let's sue dan rather for being mean . . .

and let's sue OldLeftyLawyer for being smart

and let's sue 'w' for having his zipper down yesterday

and let's sue soros for being a foriegner

and let's sue 'deferment ' dick for having a lesibian daughter

and let's sue condi for being black

and let's sue feild marshal von fummy for having greasy hair

and let's sue edwards for having girly hair

and ler's sue ann coulter for being a cross dresser

and let's sue o'reily for bad mouthing falafals

and ltes's sue al franken for being funny

and let's sue the swift-lipped vets for being gop tools

and let's sue rove for being from utah

and let's sue hillary for being forgiving

and let's sue al sharpton for wearing track suits sometimes



and let's sue DU for letting even you post stupid comments

is it just me or are youa bit freepy . . .

how is that for a second post on DU!!!!

[proudtobeadem]

177. Truehawk I think you should read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=76599&mesg_id=77214&page=

and this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=76599&mesg_id=78103&page=

[Imajika]

176. The truth is...

...that there will be no overturning this election.

The Kerry camp has no secret strategy to pounce tomorrow, next week, once Ohio is certified, after Christmas, after New Year, or at any time.

It simply isn't going to happen. Not now, not ever.

There are NOT enough votes in Ohio to overturn the election. There are NOT enough votes in Florida to overturn the election. The election WILL NOT be overturned.

Spending all of this time hoping and praying election 2004 will turn out differently is an utter and complete waste of time. I do feel sorry for all the people here waiting with bated breath for the latest BBV update, or the lastest Bloggerman entry. Hoping John Kerry rides on to the scene and contests the election is just delaying the process of accepting defeat in 2004. Nothing is going to change this election, because there are NOT enough votes in Ohio, Florida or anywhere else to flip it.

I know that perhaps the majority on DU simply do not want to believe what I am saying, but that's reality folks. Bang away at this all you want, but at the end of the day it is very clear that Kerry conceded and is done. He conceded because his campaign team knows that there simply are not enough votes to allow him any chance of victory. Ohio and Florida are simply not close enough.

I don't buy this massive election fraud conspiracy that seems to have become an article of faith at DU. Actually, I think it is extremely counterproductive and the groupthink I see here accepting this theory as some sort of proven fact is appalling.

Should election irregularities be looked in to? You bet. Should recounts occur where people feel there is something wrong and have the right to ask for one? Sure. Our election process is messy and needs to be cleaned up. I'm all for that. But people, get a grip, Kerry lost and he knows it - that is why he conceded, and that is why other than throwing a few bones to thousands of his supporters whom he knows are concerned about this issue, he will do nothing to seriously get involved.

Sorry folks. Don't believe me if you wish, but at the end of the day it will be obvious I was quite correct in my assessment.

Imajika

[proudtobeadem]

178. Thank you for the uplifting message I'm sure it's made your day to

bring everyone down.

[vajraroshana]

180. When is Kerry going to even acknowledge us?

I'm getting impatient, even with those that think this is a strategy thing.

I'm starting to get quite pissed.

[malatesta1137]

183. lol

Senator Roll Over HAS to contest?? What planet are you on? He's sipping champagne right now in his Heinz estate.

The Skull & Bones Senator who fooled almost half of the country into voting for him, is laughing out loud at recounts efforts by people who think last Nov 2nd was in fact for real.

Before going on another horse ride earlier today, he was heard saying to Teresa:

"Is this a great country or what??"

[sepia_steel]

184. Imajika -

how can you say with absolute certainty that there are simply not enough votes to change the outcome, when so many were very obviously recorded erroneously (FRAUDULENTLY) for Bush, 'given away' to the wrong candidates, or simply thrown out with last week's trash - given that so much of it is provable?

All of these 'anomalies', 'glitches' and 'statistical improbabilities' don't just happen organically. This is shit, all of it - and make no mistake, it's all man-made. This was fraud. I really believe we will see the numbers begin to change, if we can just get partisan bastards like Blackwell out of the fray. This is my prayer, at any rate.

Regardless of what Kerry is doing about it (and I trust him, personally), now's the time for us to take action upon ourselves.

Let's not waste this time speculating.

[Wiley50]

190. Perhaps the real reason he conceded

is revealedin this link:

Link:http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BAK411A.html

Oh, and Happy Holiday!

Wiley

[New Earth]

191. what is your obsession with this link?

:hi:

[Cowboy Joe2k]

199. I agree, the Election was rigged. Kerry should not be allowed to

concede at all. This is not Poker. you can not fold because you think you opponent has a better hand. By doing so he has taken the choice of who will lead from the people of he United States and decided the matter himself. He conceded before all the votes were counted. He should not legally be able to do that.

I fear that this may end up another 60 second news story about how one or two machines were rigged but the amount of tampering was "not enough to sway the vote." Statements such as this make me sick. after all how many machines need to be tampered with to in fact sway the vote??? with margins such as 50,000 or 100,000 or even 150,000 it does not take a scientist to figure out that a total of 10 to 20 rigged machines could easily do the job.

Something else to remember is that evidence that the central tabulators were in fact vulnerable to hacker manipulation has been un-covered by www.blackboxvoting.org Computer professors have stated after looking at the code that drives these machines that if their students had submitted these programs as a final project they would fail the class.

I am appalled that the mainstream media continues to bury this topic under such subjects as the crazy deer hunter or the Scott Peterson Trial. Stories that I feel are not news worthy at all. Like wise I don't care that they found some Molting Seal in a drainage ditch, or that a puppy fell down a well. In comparison to a situation that is a true threat to Democracy as we know it, how can they give these stories so much attention.

Furthermore I am sick of people saying "You lost, get over it." If I lost because you cheated I am well with in my right to call your attention to the rules of the game. I am also sick of the assertion that if it is not covered by Fox News, it must be a conspiracy theory. How many Sources do you need before you start to wounder if theory is fact. further more I point out that the concept of "God" is a theory but "Conservatives" don't have any problems believing in that.

I do not consider my self a "Liberal" a "Conspiracy Theorist" or even a "Democrat". I am an American and if you don't believe that such wide spread allegations of Fraud should be at the very least investigated then not only are you un-American, but you are a threat to Democracy.

[truehawk]

207. I could not agree more

The Thugs have shown they have the intent with their blatent voter supression.

And they have the

Means :Rethug controled Voting Machine Companies

The Motive: Control of Trillions of Dollars and Millions of Lives

And Oppertunity :Proven hackablity of the Centeral Tabulators.
The three sets of books in GEMS, the software written with rigging in mind.


We are hireing a President and Vice President to Fight for US against this. They competed for the job. We supported them. It is now time for them to preform.

[Blissfulbride]

211. Contribute to the OFFICIAL KERRY-EDWARDS RECOUNT FUND

If you didn't catch this article, you may not know that the official KERRY-EDWARDS 2004 CAMPAIGN IS NOW SEEKING DONATIONS FOR ITS RECOUNT EFFORT.
From North County News . . .
"In another signal the Kerry/Edwards team is increasing its involvement in the recount effort, a note was posted on the campaign website yesterday that called on supporters to contribute to the Kerry-Edwards 2004 General Election Legal and Accounting Compliance Fund."

Read the whole article at http://www.northcountynews.com/view.asp?s=11-24-04/news...

From the official Kerry-Edwards 2004 website. . .
"Contributing to the Kerry-Edwards 2004 General Election Legal and Accounting Compliance Fund (GELAC) provides important support for our campaign. THE FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION HAS JUST GRANTED OUR REQUEST TO RAISE FUNDS NOW TO COVER RECOUNT EXPENSES. Your contribution to Kerry-Edwards 2004 GELAC will provide the resources to make sure we are prepared to win the post election day battles.

In addition to recount costs, GELAC helps pay for legal and accounting expenses incurred by the campaign. By paying for these expenses with GELAC funds, the campaign is able to spend more of its limited public funds on critical campaign expenses such as media, candidate travel and direct contact with voters. "

Here's how and where to contribute.

https://contribute.johnkerry.com/gelac.html?team=4617

:o :o :o :o :o :o

[New Earth]

212. that article is misinformative

(is that word?)

that fundraiser has been up since before election day and has never been taken down. It really is nothing new. What DOES seem new on the Kerry/Edwards site - is the contact form to send reports of voting irregularities and voter suppression.

[politicasista]

215. he still needs to come out and say something.

People are angry and growing impatient.:-(

[Ladyhawk]

217. I think he left us.

For some reason, I keep remembering that scene in Jurassic Park when the T. rex gets out of its paddock and the lawyer in the jeep with the children high-tails it out of there.

Later, Lex says to Alan, "He left us! He left us!" The terror on her face reminds me of my own terror and hopelessness.

If John Kerry did leave us to face the T. rex alone, I can only hope he meets up with his own T. rex--one that prefers to eat its lawyers straight out of a can.

[Ladyhawk]

216. I already gave all my money to him for this and he isn't using it.

:mad:

I'm getting more and more suspicous of Kerry as time goes on.

[Debbie13]

219. Bev's post a few nights ago indicated that it didn't seem

Kerry was going to fight.

http://www.kathymcmahon.utvinternet.com/mrn/articles/WhatVoteFraud.htm

Why not? It doesn't make sense.

[rasqual]

220. What Al Qaeda thinks of Nader

A bit OT, but hey:

Sez the #2 man, Ayman al-Zawahiri:

"You can elect Bush, Kerry or Satan himself, it doesn't matter to us," he said. "What's important to us is the U.S. policies toward Muslims."

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/29/alzawahiri.tape/

Personally, I don't think Nader's as bad as all THAT.


;-)

[tbuddha]

221. Settle down....settle down...

your reaction is understandable and expected. Please take comfort in that all is going exactly how I predicted. We'll have our recount in Ohio. We're also getting one in NH, NM and NV. We also have litigation in the works in FL. The protests are picking up too. THAT is where you should put your energy. The more pictures we have of people in the streets the better. The repukes are starting to defend themselves. This is a good thing. It shows they are concerned. We have the truth and the facts on our side though, so let them keep talking. This week on Olberman we are seeing the first signs of the point-counterpoint format with Blackwell/Jackson. The more that format gets in the media the better because we have the facts on our side.

We are also instituting talking points and keeping these circulating in the blogosphere and in emails to the press so that OUR talking heads are prepared with well groomed soundbites. We'll win the televised debates hands down.

TALKING POINT: Because the voting machines are "dumb" until software is loaded, glitches in one machine are a strong indicator that the same problem is likely to exist in other machines of the same type. There have been isolated machine problems identified and reported by news outlets, which makes it highly probable that problems exist in other machines running the same software. Recent university analyses appear to confirm this suspicion as voting anomalies have been tied to specific voting machines and software in certain regions of the country. The result has been that the outcome in certain areas has been as statistically improbable as winning the election."

[dzika]

222. "...you've literally got to beat the shit out of John Kerry..."

From: Washington Square News
Issue date: 11.29.2004

http://www.nyunews.com/news/campus/8429.html

Kerry aide pans nasty Bush run

by Jesse Greenspan
Contributing Writer

-snip-
Trbovich has known Kerry for more than 30 years, he said, and
even worked as communications director of Kerry's failed 1972
congressional campaign. He said the Massachusetts senator has
more integrity and intelligence than almost anyone else he
knows. He added, however, that unlike Bill Clinton, Kerry's
intellect is at stronger than his political ear.

"Excuse my language, but you've literally got to beat the shit
out of John Kerry sometimes to get him where you want him to
go," he said. •

[ElementaryPenguin]

223. Interesting.

I think we're starting to figure this guy out.