CyberNET Group CEO killed during standoff - continued discussion please

[seemslikeadream]

Thread from LBN
seemslikeadream
CyberNET Group CEO killed during standoff


(Ada Township, November 24, 2004, 10:50 a.m.) Barton Watson was found dead in his home after being involved in a standoff with police.

The incident follows a federal investigation of The CyberNET Group in Grand Rapids that began last week involving a massive fraud probe.

The incident began when police say Barton Watson called them around midnight saying he wanted to hurt himself. Authorities came to Watson's house in the hopes of stopping him from harming himself. They talked with Watson for sometime and knew he was alone in his house with a gun.

"Within an hour of us coming out here, around 1:00 or 1:30 a.m., officers did hear gun shots within the house. They didn't feel that those were shot towards the officers, but that did concern the officers on the scene," Sergeant Roger Parent of the Kent County Sheriff's Department told 24 Hour News 8.

more

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2610146&nav=0RceTV25


whistle

What would prompt the CEO of CyberNET to want to kill himself?


seemslikeadream

Lawsuit filed against The CyberNET Group in Grand Rapids


(Grand Rapids, November 19, 2004, 6:01 p.m.) A lawsuit has now been filed against a Grand Rapids Internet company after federal agents raided the building.

On Wednesday, federal investigators shut down The CyberNET Group on South Division Avenue and locked employees out. Sources tell 24 Hour News 8 that investigators were looking for evidence of wire, mail, and bank fraud. They hauled away computers and financial records linked to the company.

Employees returned to work Friday for the time since the raid. They entered through a backdoor of the world headquarters facility on South Division Avenue.

Now 24 Hour News 8 has obtained copies of a lawsuit filed Thursday against CyberCo, the parent company of The CyberNet Group. Fraud is one of the allegations outlined in the lawsuit.

In the lawsuit, Charter One Vendor Finance of Illinois says it loaned The CyberNET Group $3 million so the company could buy 66 computer servers. But in the lawsuit, Charter One said it could only find evidence of 25 servers at the company's Grand Rapids' headquarters, and The CyberNET Group could not provide an explanation. Charter One believes The CyberNET Group misused the loaned money and used false information to secure the loan.

more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2591580&nav=0RceTLbh

DeVos and VanAndel

Employees return to work at The CyberNET Group after federal raid
24 Hour News 8 has uncovered some more information about a raid involving five agencies at The CyberNET Group building on South Division Avenue in Grand Rapids Wednesday morning.

The federal agents brought in truckloads of equipment and seized all electronic data including computers and financial information connected to the company.

The CyberNET Group hosts Internet Web sites for companies and holds electronic data for them. The company is based in Grand Rapids with 120 employees, and about 1,000 worldwide in Chicago, Las Vegas, the United Kingdom, Philippines, Australia, Hong Kong and China.

Some of the companies clients include DeVos Place and the Van Andel Arena, whose Web sites were down Wednesday during the raid.
more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2578803&nav=0RceTEfz

DeVos and VanAndel.

These names are the founders of the Amway corporation and have considerable influence on the city of Grand Rapids.

The Creation Research Society
The Van Andel Creation Research Center is strategically located in or near a very large variety of biological and geological areas of great importance to the creationist position. The Grand Canyon, just two hours to the north, is perhaps the most geologically interesting area in the U.S. A wide variety of biological habitats is relatively easy to access from the Research Center. Both high altitude montane communities and Sonoran Desert Saguaro cactus communities are within a two-hour drive

http://www.creationresearch.org/vacrc.html

Mrs. Van Andel, of Ada, was known in the Grand Rapids area as a longtime volunteer for many charities and civic organizations. Forbes magazine listed her husband in 2002 as the 131st richest person in the United States with assets of about $1.5 billion.

“Betty was an inspiration to everyone she met,” Amway co-founder Rich DeVos said in a statement. “She was a dedicated wife, mother and grandmother whose compassion enriched many lives.”
http://www.detnews.com/2004/obituaries/0401/21/b02-41576.htm


Former Federal Auditor Turned Whistleblower and FBI Witness Speaks


According to www.merchantsofdeception.com, these political ties, involving huge political contributions and large speaking fees for prominent Republican leaders (including former Presidents), have resulted in a massive $280 million tax break for the Amway Corporation, the largest multi-level marketing company (MLM), as well as immunity for Amway and companies of this type from investigations of possible violations of anti-pyramid scheme statutes. The "business" has brought in well in excess of $20 billion to date.

www.merchantsofdeception.com is published by Eric Scheibeler, a former federal auditor and later a ranking Amway insider who turned whistleblower and FBI witness. Scheibeler was instrumental in providing key documentation to "Dateline NBC" in its May 7, 2004, hidden camera exposé of Amway/Quixtar's "secret" pyramid business run by Amway/Quixtar "kingpins." "Dateline NBC" reported that the FBI and the IRS are conducting investigations based partly on information disclosed in the report.

A life-long conservative, Scheibeler details GOP donations and corporate promotion that have allegedly resulted in political protection and benefits for the MLM industry. An audiotape of former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich promoting Amway at a large Amway meeting is included on the site. The site details public speaking fees to Gingrich in the $50,000 range. Gingrich arranged a reported last-minute modification in a comprehensive tax bill that allegedly provided a $283 million tax break to just one company -- Amway. Also on the site are audio clips of then Texas governor George W. Bush and one sent by high-level kingpin distributors from a private meeting within the White House.

"The GOP seems to have been hijacked by political payoffs from an industry that is rife with consumer deception, and bogus 'business opportunity' selling," Scheibeler stated. "Whether you are a Democrat or Republican, we can agree it is time this secret influence peddling and the harm it causes consumers and our democracy are revealed. I was on the inside. I saw it with my own eyes. I also have the documents, financials, and the audio and video tapes to prove it."

The site also calls to task the Federal Trade Commission -- currently chaired by Bush administration appointee Timothy Muris, whose law firm represented Amway -- for its alleged failure to investigate or prosecute pyramid sales schemes, despite multiple well-documented complaints.

more
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1004-insight-Former+Federal+Auditor+Turned+Whistleblower-status-25-newsID-21378.html

Multimillionaires funding expensive pro-Bush 527 ads
By Geoff Earle

A billionaire, a professional sports magnate, a Texas oilman and the founders of Amway are funding the most expensive ad buy of the presidential campaign.

The $14 million ad, which began airing in key markets this month, shows President Bush hugging a teenage girl whose mother died in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The ad was paid for by the Progress for America Voter Fund, a 527 group that has run TV ads for Bush and against Sen. John Kerry.
more
http://www.thehill.com/news/102704/multimillionaires.as...

amelia

Does Amway influence it's employees?


I just talked to a woman who I see occasionally because we share the same work position. I went to her house to pickup something and I saw all of her bush stickers and bumper stickers etc. I had on my old "Re-elect Gore in 2004" t-shirt. We were joking about my shirt and her stickers. She is devoted to her party just as I am to mine, but we are very friendly about it. She's a very nice person. She isn't a political junkie like I am though and doesn't know of all the corporations that influence her party and the issues that affect her life just like they so mine.

As we were talking about politics, she told me that she had registered as a Democrat along with her husband, when they were married. I asked her why they had changed their politics, and she said they changed their politics when they started to work for Amway, and that working at Amway allowed them to buy their home. At the time, I wondered what that had to do with her politics, but I didn't ask her about it. I have never heard about all the controversy about Amway and it's republican ties. This explains what she meant about working for Amway and changing her politics.

I'm just guessing that Amway probably influences it's workers in politics.

I just wanted to let you know about this little story, because it is so strange that I just talked to her yesterday, and then I read your post this morning. It just is really weird, I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone you know? It was just a bizarre episode (at least to me) I feel like these right wing influences are like an evil mist that are just drifting into every facet of my life.


tanyev

There's a lot of mind control


flowing down that Amway pyramid. My ex-husband got sucked into Amway for a while. It's not just selling products, it's a way of life.

He went to local meetings, listened endlessly to their motivational tapes, and went to at least one weekend pep rally in Memphis. Pretty soon I was hearing how embarrassed he was that I wouldn't do any of it with him. (Never mind that I already had 2 jobs and was keeping the roof over our heads. Never mind that had I gotten involved I would have had 3 jobs and he would have been back in the LaZBoy.) He would talk about what great marriages and families his "upline" had. I couldn't stand to listen to any of the tapes but I'm sure there was plenty of "God will make you rich if you live your life right" philosophy on them.

I recently saw a news feature on the Amway/Quixar big shots and it explained that how they really made their money is from the motivational tapes and seminars. Nobody makes it rich in Amway just from selling lots of soap.

Oh, and the great marriages in my ex-husband's upline? I worked in a county records agency and was pretty amused to see a big fat divorce case come through a couple years after my divorce. It was the couple at the top of the local pyramid and they were divvying up all their Amway assets.

"Lately it has become more and more difficult to attend dinner parties without the evening ending in gunfire or tapioca..." Lemony Snicket


w4rma

Amway co-founder,Richard DeVos is a longtime GOP benefactor.

Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 02:11 PM by w4rma
Bill Britt, who probably has the largest organisation under him within Amway, is also a Republican, I believe.

But, I'm positive that there are many many Democrats within the system and they do not descriminate on race, religion or whatever. Although the buisness plan Bill Britt used to build his connections was decidedly evangelical in nature.

That said. As someone who used to be in Amway, and may rejoin at some point in the future, their buisness plan does indeed work very well and, imho, as long as the base of the pyramids have room to expand then it's an ethical buisness plan that enables *anyone* to become wealthy through hard work.

The plan is really all about statistics. You talk to enough people and eventually someone will join under you to help you and themselves out. Keep throwing the mud onto the wall and eventually *someone* will join with the willpower and enthusiasm to do what you are doing, etc. etc. etc. Once you get enough people then their own motivation grows the enterprise more and more and eventually you can step back and put in only minor work (such as traveling occasionally to help others in the system by teaching them what you know).

One thing that is very good about their system is that *anyone* can become a leader through it and there is more than enough room for every motivated person within the buisness to do that (as long as the buisness never totally saturates the markets).

Also note that noone in the system is allowed to use mass media, to an extent, to promote the buisness which is why you never see adverts about it. It all has to be done through word of mouth so that the proper folks get the credit.

Democracy for America!
The Bush Tax: How Much Is It Costing You?
Join the Progressive Majority!
HowardStern.com …


rooboy

Check out these three websites....


www.merchantsofdeception.com

www.formerdiamond.com

www.amquix.info

Amway is in for a BIG fall soon. Their kingpin distributors have been operating an illegal pyramid scheme, using the Amway business as cover. In a word, they're racketeering.



Alert Printer Friendly | Reply | Top



BamaBecky (102 posts) Wed Nov-24-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #2

13. Seemslikeadream - I have a question


I read all of this. I know we are talking about scams, money laundering, bank fraud on a grand scale.......do we yet know what the object of all their criminal "games" were? Was it just personal greed, or were their schemes more sophisticated than that with some "desired end" in sight?

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed and Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer



seemslikeadream

With the help from you BamaBecky

Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 01:16 PM by seemslikeadream
we may just be able to figure that out!

Much more than personal greed I would say.

And thanks for being here. I'm ashamed for the way some have been treated in 2004 Election Results and Discussion, sorry for that.




Alert Printer Friendly | Edit | Reply | Top



whistle (1000+ posts) Wed Nov-24-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #2

21. Yep, that pretty much says it all, how about the Landmark Forum people


...they are in lock step with these multi-level marketing people and also have infiltrated every level of government, education and professional institutions in this country. I would not be surprised if Dubya himself has been drawn into these self help cretins.


Alert Printer Friendly | Reply | Top



KingChicken (595 posts) Wed Nov-24-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #1

5. My brother works for CyberNET

Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 11:22 AM by KingChicken
Everyone is shaken up right now, it's really tragic. Last week he was living the high life, now he live's no more. They repossesed all of his stuff, and they are taking apart the company right now. 550 worldwide employees, I don't know what everyone is going to do.

I feel bad for Barton Watson, but I know he was a really smart guy, he knew what he was doing.


Alert Printer Friendly | Reply | Top



seemslikeadream

Thanks KingChicken


I hope you will keep us informed if you hear anything. But there maybe more to learn about Barton Watson.



KingChicken

Apparently the fraud is pretty big, "tens of millions" is what I hear.


I was surprised to see this show up on DU, i didn’t even notice the DeVos name, even though I've done research on Amway, I totally missed it. I'm not sure exactly where the money was going but I guess their is a lot unaccounted for.

It looks like it started with the fake servers they were using as collateral for loans, but it turned out to be much bigger. I thought it was odd about the "empty servers" when my brother told me about it, they made the datacenter look good but beyond that no one knew it was a scam.

I will look into what the implications are for the company.



seemslikeadream

Take a look at this KingChicken


http://www.netmaxsucks.com/mystory.html

Is this the same company you were talking about?



seemslikeadream

Think prevention


Stryon (www.stryon.com ) has merged with Halcyon Software. The new company will focus on developing software that will help businesses move their older software, called legacy software, to newer operating environments. The merged company, retaining the name Stryon, is closely affiliated with The CyberNET Group, a global systems integration firm with operations throughout North America, Europe, South Africa, Asia, and Australia. CyberNET CEO Barton Watson comments, "The merger with Halcyon brings tremendous capabilities to Stryon" as it "can now provide a scope of application services never before available to middle market companies and enterprise accounts." Halcyon is a portfolio company of ChinaVest.(ChinaVest is one of the oldest and largest private equity firms exclusively targeting the rapidly growing Greater China market; China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. Since 1985, it has raised more than US$300 million and developed a balanced portfolio of more than 40 companies.)

http://www.halcyonsoft.com/company.asp?s=4


How You Can Corral Legal Costs

....

The practice group is a form of "law-firm venture capital," says Barton Watson, a Morrison, Mahoney & Miller client and the owner of CyberNET Engineering, an 80-employee information-technology company based in Grand Rapids, Mich.

According to a number of knowledgeable observers, the Morrison, Mahoney & Miller example is not one that has been copied by many other law firms yet. Most small-business people, when they seek out legal advice, will not be walking into law firms that have tried to tailor their services to small-business needs.

But the owners of small companies have available an arsenal of techniques they can use to get the best possible legal representation at prices they can afford. Here are some guidelines:

Think prevention.

more
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1154/is_2_87...


KingChicken

I just heard back from my brother, everyone was let go.


They just formally let all the CyberNET Engineering employees go, it's so sad to see this happen in the span of just one week, like having the rug pulled from under you. I don't think everyone will get paid for the last couple of weeks because the assets are frozen.

I could of never imagined it would come to this, after this business expanded it's operations so much and built a worldwide empire. Mr. Watson was an extremely talented business man, but unfortunately it had to end like this.


Word to the wise: Don't ever get mixed up in stealing money, or fraud, you might find yourself holding a gun to your head.


Minstrel Boy

"the classical Roman way"

Researcher David Guyatt:

"Fraud, manipulation, grand larceny on a scale that is almost unimaginable to comprehend - and cold blooded murder when things look like they are about to unravel - are the daily bread and drink of these financial titans. If someone gets out of order or is perceived to be a threat, even if he is a member of the club, he is taken care of in the classical Roman way.


seemslikeadream

Cyberco Holdings Inc., parent company of CyberNETEngineering and Cybernet


The company has a dozen leased vehicles, including a fleet of BMWs, as well as plush furniture and original artwork that line its corridors and employees' offices at Cyberco Holdings Inc., the parent company of CyberNET Engineering and CyberNet Group.

"It's incredibly and absurdly unusual, over-the-top ridiculous," said Daniel Yeomans, who Monday was assigned by a Kent County Circuit Court judge to see if the business can be salvaged or if its assets can be liquidated to return money to creditors.

Yeomans is acting in the interest of Illinois-based lender Charter One and as many as 46 other banks that lent Cyberco money. Yeomans said the company has an 800-page filing listing all liens on property used for business purposes. Most large businesses have only several pages.

Charter One filed suit against Cyberco Holdings last week accusing the Grand Rapids-based computer company of "perpetrating a scheme to defraud Charter One and likely other creditors."
more
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-...

MB


ElsewheresDaughter

is this the same CyberNet involved in BBV story of voting machine fraud?



"Bay Point Schools, Cal Tech, and the CyberNET connection."
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.c...


I think its time the public see this.

Interestingly enough, Dr. Piotr Blass is not only significant and real, he has alot of resume background in Michigan state, and otherwise, is connected to a very interesting corporation known as CyberNET Venturs Inc.(which manages all of Cybernets divisions...)

In the allegations report, a certain vendor described that such a network company was financing the operation through Mel Sembler and a few other bad eggs connected to the head of the game map. Another company was described as giving source to certain code.....Turns out CyberN is indeed an open source code distributor to several organizations, ultimately not even limited to voting companies. Also turns out an employee named Guitterez works(or had worked) there and created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe, that are certainly not MS Access.

http://engrm.com/personnel/gutierrez-alan/experiential....

Also interestingly enough, the state and F.B.I just barely seized CyberNET Ventures Inc capital in Michigan state for all of its computer systems. Every single last one, in one large effort, and refused to state why they had them seized and impounded.

More interesting though, is the fact that if you look and sniff around it appears CyberNET (who is also, direct finance of the white house and ambassador) had its systems freely distributed among universities...Schools, teaching sites, and so on everywhere. And more interestingly also worldwide.

But the most interesting part of all, is CyberNET's own interest in Diebold, and helping them out of some dirty circumstances....

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:mk1BGFoCVrkJ:www.eff...

And of course on top of all this, ChoicePoint government who controls voting name rosters, being issued by Jeb Bush to directly not only take off the felon purge lists, but keep them as well. Authorities issued repeated orders for him to turn it off and instead he saved all the names to some hard drive and area around there in order to use them all again later.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65377,00.html...

What I'm seeing here, is clearly one of the ugliest watergate level scandals there ever was, and then of course the media has no idea of anything. So what can we do about it?

Here is what: We need an astute group of search experts, to find any, and every single tie the one and only CyberNET Ventures has with this issue because it leads straight to the top and back to the whitehouse. So far much information seems to be missing (blank pages) so experts who have background in information management, do your part! Search all the archives and find any and all reports and links of these companies together, linkes to ChoicePoint, links between each party and so on and get this rotton egg hard broiled!

Of course the vote totals were flipped: Using obvious malicious code of rigged names across the board, some that possibly don't even exist (see: evicted felon/citizen roster) and even adoptions for all anyone knows. And the way to make this come full force as the biggest dump ever seen is do an information sweep, and find every single leaked report there possibly is, get it recorded! Get it archived!

We can help the federal authorities and team do their job, Ireland even said this on the radio. And yes I'm going to say something some would start turning their heads in at: The Fisher story is most likely a correct, variable assessment and main report of what went on.

Schools involved clearly are not the only ones as Cal Tech and universities constantly stating the exit polls mean nothing, are all possible suspects too. I would leave no stone unturned and do your part as citizens to call it out.

Oh and good luck, we have democracy at risk here.

"Nothing is foolproof. Footprints are real."


seemslikeadream Thanks ElsewheresDaughter

thanks so much


Must_B_Free

Cliff Baxter, anyone?

Maybe he knew too much about the election... Might have talked to get out of it.

Oddly, I was just up in Ada a couple months ago.

Disclaimer: posts mostly sarcasm.


KingChicken

CyberNET news coverage, 17th - 24th


CyberNET Group Raided By Police
http://fox17.trb.com/news/111704-wxmi-police,0,367520.s...

Lawsuit Provides Clues To CyberNET Investigation
http://fox17.trb.com/news/111804-wxmi-cybernet,0,956334...

Employees return to work at The CyberNET Group after federal raid
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2578803&nav=0R...

Law enforcement officials in Kent County in standoff at home
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2609657

Police enter CyberNET chairman's house after overnight standoff
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2607827&nav=0R...

Tech exec found dead in Mich. home after standoff
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-11-24-cybernet-e...

CyberNET Founder Dead After Standoff
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/cyb112404.cfm

Employees react to death of Barton Watson
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2610741&nav=0R...

Tech Exec Found Dead After Standoff With Police
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3947596/detail.html

Suspect in cyberscam kills himself after standoff with police
http://www.mlive.com/news/muchronicle/index.ssf?/base/n...



ElsewheresDaughter

pic of Baxterized .....Barton Watson

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2578803&nav=0R...

<snip>
The allegations are something the company's CEO, Barton Watson, is familiar with, as he was convicted of fraud in the 1980s. He served three years in a federal prison and was released in 1989. He has also been sued for stealing and forced to pay $1 million.

Watson appeared at a charity event at a California vineyard in August. He, along with Yahoo! founder Jerry Yang, won a winery tour with a bid of $75,000.

Watson and his wife have an affinity for quarter horses. They also have a million dollar home in Ada under her name. Nobody was home when 24 Hour News 8 visited the house a second straight day. But we did get a recorded message at the gate that said, "If you leave your message and appropriate information after the tone, I'll endeavor to return your call as soon as practical."

An email to employees was obtained by 24 Hour News 8. It said this is a difficult and challenging time for everyone. It also says workers should report Friday, but that doesn't stop the worry for workers who wonder what's going on. Employees were told that a detailed statement about what's happening would be issued Friday.

Federal officials still won't release any details about the investigation.


for all working links original thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1018969#1018976

[edbermac]

1. Man, this is one LONG friggin' post!

[Carolab]

2. Looks like DeVos was betting on Bush

Bush draws big bucks from pro-sports brass: Public records can illustrate how pro sports and politics connect. Tim Povtak of the Orlando Sentinel explored federal election campaign finance reports to show how most Florida sports franchise owners and top athletes are putting their money behind President Bush in the presidential race. Orlando Magic owner Rich DeVos of the Orlando mayor, Wayne Huizenga of the Miami Dolphins, Wayne Weaver of the Jacksonville Jaguars, Micky Arison of the Miami Heat and William Davidson of the Tampa Bay Lightning have given the maximum allowable for individuals – $2,000 – to the Bush campaign recently. “Many of their family members have done the same. Tampa Bay Devil Rays manager Lou Piniella, former Jacksonville Jaguars quarterback Mark Brunell, former Miami Dolphins quarterback Dan Marino and legendary golfer Arnold Palmer, who has deep roots in Central Florida, also have given $2,000 apiece to this Bush campaign.” The story says that of the 14 NBA owners or managing partners who contributed $2,000 under their own names and were listed with the Federal Election Commission during this 2004 presidential cycle, “nine gave to the Bush campaign, three gave to (John) Kerry, one gave to Dick Gephardt and one hedged his bets between the Rev. Al Sharpton and John Edwards.” Campaign contributions to a wide variety of federal candidates can be researched online at www.fec.gov/. The public records handbook covers state and local campaign financial reports on Page 60.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-10-26-campaign-contributions_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

[KoKo]

15. I tried to get a "Research Forum" on DU where some of us could post

threads on issues like this. Didn't get enough response. I think it's hard to do research when Freeps and "Agent Mike" are lurking so sometimes this stuff has to be done "off DU" when it gets to a point of
critical work.

I don't know if a secure enough place exists when research gets to the critical phase.

But, for topics like this it would be good if they could exist in their own Forum. :shrug: Sometimes the early work of finding all the links is the most important. But, we are always fighting with posts going to "Archives" and disruptors or lack of a place to "follow through" and reach a conclusion.

Just throwing this out...

[NVMojo]

96. yeah, and you have bookies in Las Vegas where one of their offices

is located ....makes sense...

[Demit]

3. Agree. Needs some editing and/or introduction!

PLEASE, people, don't just throw the kitchen sink up there! Tell us what we're looking at, and why you want us to know.

[seemslikeadream]

10. Please maybe you could be a little patient

I'm trying to recreate a thread that had over 100 posts on it and a lot of good reseach by me that disappeared for some reason.

Thanks

[geo]

18. **** Post Missing Lucidity ****

Hi all,

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but this is a bunch of gobbledeegook. It lacks relevancy, lucidity, and it is a huge piece to go through with tons of links for all us to spend time on.

We've been dealing with the same problem at BBV. I would urge any reader on this thread to read just enough to know you are being spun in circles, and then move on.

This is such a convoleted post, and it is one of several just like it I have seen over the last week; same topic, same lack of clarity, tons of links for us to chase out tails with, etc.

Freepers creepers. That's all I'll say for now. ;)

Warmly,

George

[seemslikeadream]

19. I just had hours of research deleted, excuse me!

you don't know what your talking about

[geo]

21. i don't?

Hi there,

First of all, this is far from being coherent research, and if you are using DU as a notepad, you should let us know so we can read it as such.

Please provide us a link to the "deleted" thread. :) And next time you write me, please try to be less insulting. I would appreciate that.

Thanks,

George

[seemslikeadream]

22. Do you understand what deleted means?

n/t

[geo]

27. Yes. I do. But there should still be a url reference.

Hi again,

Please do not use such a sarcastic tone when dicussing things. The reason I asked for a link to the thread is so I can evaluate your claim that someone "deleted" it. You posts on DU are tracked and can be reviewed using your menu options at any time. Even if "deleted" DU leaves some reference to the deletion or some other indicator that something was there; otherwise you would get an error page.

Either way, I would like to see "where" you old thread was so that I can independantly evaluate your claim that DU did soemthing to your "research."

Thanks,

George

[seemslikeadream]

30. You started the tone between us George

see post 17

[geo]

37. You post lacks lucidity. Saying so isn't "tone."

Hi there,

Please discuss the issue head on. Your post is long and seriously lacks cohesiveness.

- George

[Carl Brennan]

63. This topic is also very important and freepers are known

to sidetrack important topics with little games like you are playing.

Maybe you could give us some pointers on how to make the topic more cohesive. You know, to HELP people understand it better.

Note: I'm not implying anything about geo, just letting newcomers, etc. know. ;)

[geo]

70. Thanks Carl

Hi Carl,

My suggestions are tucked into the other posts, but overall, the message is just to make the whole thing more coherent.

How did this get shifted to me anyway? Is Rove here somewhere???

I feel my point is of valid concern, and at no point did I say not to read it; in fact I urged people to read at least long enough themselves to see that the post lacked lucidity.

In response to BlueDog2U I gave some feedback on how the post might be edited, if it truly is the writer's intention to give us something tangible to discuss.

Not everyone who criticizes a post is playing games. That would make for very poor discourse. :)

Warmly,

George

[Carl Brennan]

82. Yer fibbin' already geo. You did more

than point out lack of lucidity blah, blah, you called the topic a Red Herring. See post #20 in case you forgot. ;)

[Carl Brennan]

83. And in post #24 you called it a "wild goose chase".

You don't know this. You just state it as fact. Pardon me if I think you are trying to shut this topic down. ;)

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. and disturbing n/t

[Trillo]

5. It may seem callous.

What would prompt the CEO of CyberNET to want to kill himself?
Perhaps he refused to face the investigation and resultant disclosure?
A guilty conscience?
Perhaps he thought he deserved to die?

[seemslikeadream]

6. Well there was a thread here a few minutes ago

with 100 posts on it but for some reason it's been deleted. I'm trying to find out why and recreating it as best I can.

[Carolab]

7. Yeah that was weird

I was going to post something on it and my computer had a momentary "blackout" (just a quick one) and when it came back on the thread was gone.

[BlueDog2u]

9. What is the DU Policy

Regarding the destruction of threads by administrative fiat? What justifies this?

[Verve]

11. Has anyone contacted the administrator

to see what happened to the other thread?

[vanboggie]

13. self deleted

del

[KoKo]

16. A thread was Deleted? I missed that...what Forum? Maybe it just went

down a few pages. :shrug:

[seemslikeadream]

17. This one KoKo01

just disappeared

Cybernet owner in police standoff vanboggie Nov-24-04 05:31 AM #0
links? n/t djmaddox1 Nov-24-04 06:00 AM #1
here ya go. Sirveri Nov-24-04 06:01 AM #2
wrong link - no police standoff or barricade? n/t djmaddox1 Nov-24-04 06:06 AM #
Not on news site yet vanboggie Nov-24-04 06:09 AM #5
I don't understand? Sirveri Nov-24-04 06:01 AM #3
Link to prior discussion vanboggie Nov-24-04 06:06 AM #4
Do you have a link with info about him being in a standoff with police? slay Nov-24-04 06:11 AM #6
Not yet - still unfolding vanboggie Nov-24-04 06:14 AM #7
Story online now vanboggie Nov-24-04 06:21 AM #8
Watching now on www.woodtv.com - Oh man, this could be HUGE... slay Nov-24-04 06:27 AM #9
Doesn't sound good for the guy vanboggie Nov-24-04 06:31 AM #10
True, is VERY UNCLEAR if CyberNET had anything to do with election at all slay Nov-24-04 07:10 AM #11
Sending robot into home vanboggie Nov-24-04 07:30 AM #12
The links are to bogus claims about various Cybernet companies Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 07:37 AM #14
SLAY, YOU ARE SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 07:35 AM #13
Bozos for Bush - I'm not sure what your problem is slay Nov-24-04 08:04 AM #15
My problem is you linked false information intentionally Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 09:06 AM #17
Don't start accusing me when you do not even know me slay Nov-24-04 09:49 AM #28
Can't someone keep this guy away from us? eowyn_of_rohan Nov-24-04 10:21 AM #36
Frankly, Bozos, we all know where you stand when it comes to Verve Nov-24-04 08:53 AM #16
The message has been invalidated over and over Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 09:08 AM #18
links of invalidation? Verve Nov-24-04 09:09 AM #19
Deleted message Name removed Nov-24-04 09:11 AM #21
Who's calling who a freeper? If you want all your news organized and Verve Nov-24-04 09:16 AM #24
Hey Bozo SomthingsGotaGive Nov-24-04 10:13 AM #34
Hey Gotta Give! You and I signed up within 2 days of each other Verve Nov-24-04 10:35 AM #40
Yes we did But....... SomthingsGotaGive Nov-24-04 11:26 AM #61
Ya gotta be kidding me Gotta! Stop wasting people's time! Verve Nov-24-04 12:00 PM #67
Waste Peoples Time? SomthingsGotaGive Nov-24-04 12:33 PM #73
Wow, You Really Take this stuff Personally IAMREALITY Nov-24-04 09:13 AM #23
This is making me think we really *should* be looking into this seriously slay Nov-24-04 09:35 AM #27
Deleted message Name removed Nov-24-04 02:17 PM #84
So you did come back then? nolabels Nov-24-04 02:25 PM #89
There are those of us who want to see this issue with CyberNet resolved txindy Nov-24-04 01:27 PM #79
He's having trouble with this one BlueDog2u Nov-24-04 09:10 AM #20
You know damn well proof has been given (n/t) Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 09:12 AM #22
Then provide the links!!! Verve Nov-24-04 09:17 AM #25
I've provided the links all over the place! Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 02:21 PM #85
Thank you Verve vanboggie Nov-24-04 09:24 AM #26
Your welcome! Verve Nov-24-04 09:52 AM #29
Yes, thank you Verve slay Nov-24-04 10:02 AM #31
I didn't think you were propagating any misinfo either. kk897 Nov-24-04 10:03 AM #33
Why do you defend cybernet so? merh Nov-24-04 10:26 AM #38
Yes, the results of Bozo's posts are BlueDog2u Nov-24-04 10:59 AM #52
Please do keep us updated as to what's going on vanboogie slay Nov-24-04 09:56 AM #30
He's dead - apparently shot himself GregD Nov-24-04 10:03 AM #32
Wow. Nothing yet on the news about it.. although.. slay Nov-24-04 10:14 AM #35
BREAKING NEWS - CyberNET Group CEO killed during standoff slay Nov-24-04 10:21 AM #37
So what's the deal with all this, at this point GregD Nov-24-04 10:35 AM #39
That's the point! Bozo keeps saying this is debunked but he hasn't Verve Nov-24-04 10:39 AM #41
So what fraud was cybernet involved in that made the CEO merh Nov-24-04 10:43 AM #42
Cybernet fraud info slay Nov-24-04 10:48 AM #45
investigators were looking for evidence of wire, mail, and bank fraud seemslikeadream Nov-24-04 10:49 AM #47
Cyberco Holdings Inc., parent company of CyberNETEngineering and CyberNet seemslikeadream Nov-24-04 10:57 AM #50
Here's one connection no doubt!! slay Nov-24-04 10:57 AM #51
Yes it does deserve looking into seemslikeadream Nov-24-04 10:59 AM #53
It most certainly does slay Nov-24-04 11:06 AM #56
Edit: My post #51 should read CyberNET -> DeVos, etc - not Cyberlink slay Nov-24-04 12:38 PM #76
Any connection between any of these folks to Carolab Nov-24-04 01:45 PM #81
I haven't it yet Carolab but have you seen this?Diebold - CyberNET seemslikeadream Nov-24-04 01:59 PM #82
Wrong Cybernet! How could you not know!?!? Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 02:26 PM #90
And where's your link? Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 02:24 PM #88
Awesome research, seemslikeadream! RevCheesehead Nov-24-04 11:16 AM #58
Nice work nolabels Nov-24-04 02:07 PM #83
oh my gosh this looks very suspicious keepthemhonest Nov-24-04 10:46 AM #44
Look up above Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 02:23 PM #86
It seems that Bozos is very much against us trying to find out... slay Nov-24-04 10:45 AM #43
Why did Bozo suddenly drop out? eowyn_of_rohan Nov-24-04 10:49 AM #46
Some people work for a living instead of getting paid to mislead at DU! Bozos for Bush Nov-24-04 02:27 PM #91
See what you can find, Slay vanboggie Nov-24-04 11:24 AM #60
Consider my interest piqued as well slay Nov-24-04 11:32 AM #62
Does anybody know about some of them links nolabels Nov-24-04 11:33 AM #63
Does the FBI have evidence of MORE than financial fraud ? eowyn_of_rohan Nov-24-04 10:51 AM #48
Very true. If they did have reason to suspect election-related fraud... txindy Nov-24-04 01:38 PM #80
No BlueDog2u Nov-24-04 11:01 AM #55
Now, BlueDog2u Nov-24-04 11:00 AM #54
I guess you should change the name of the thread now n/t keepthemhonest Nov-24-04 10:51 AM #49
Gee, I wonder why he would not just call a lawyer to come bail........... nolabels Nov-24-04 11:11 AM #57
Dead men tell no tales seemslikeadream Nov-24-04 11:20 AM #59
Well at least he wasn't flying around in a plane nolabels Nov-24-04 11:41 AM #65
Or sitting in a car on a dark street in Texas with a gun seemslikeadream Nov-24-04 12:03 PM #68
Here's some interesting possible info regarding CyberNET: slay Nov-24-04 11:37 AM #64
Reading a couple past posts from netmaxsucks.com sounds like......... nolabels Nov-24-04 11:58 AM #66
Very Interesting... Woo Nov-24-04 12:07 PM #69
This is also the MO wet teams like to use isn't it? nolabels Nov-24-04 12:17 PM #72
Police looking for suicide note vanboggie Nov-24-04 12:08 PM #70
thanks for all the info, Slay! Solitaire Nov-24-04 12:34 PM #74
Does anyone remember Horse with no Name Nov-24-04 12:16 PM #71
I think what might have happened mirandapriestly Nov-24-04 12:43 PM #77
Not to try to add to a conspiracy thoery but steelyboo Nov-24-04 12:38 PM #75
Not to add to the conspiracy BUT... Woo Nov-24-04 01:17 PM #78
Investigators Needed

[Verve]

12. I doubt if he had a guilty bone in his body. He was a true

white collar criminal who had been in jail for fraud before. But, what would push him over the edge this time???

[geo]

20. Red Herring

Hi SimpleTrend,

It is sad that a man is dead, and good that the F.B.I. is working to clean up problems in his company, but it the link that brought us to this story just isn't there. It is pure conjecture.

Numerous posts with this link have been posted and it's hard not to read them, but I urge anyone looking at any posts that lacks coherency and send you off investigating tons of inferences to consider that it might be the goal of the writer to spin you in circles and waste your time.

This post is a great example. It seriously lacks clarity of thought, and takes a ton of time to get through, especially if you start trying to verify facts or work through the links.

Stay sharp. Stay focused. :) Does the writer of this post give us anything more than conjecture to back his claims? Why the long post with tons of links to go through, when the writer did not take the time to organize the data coherently or offer a summary of the findings? This post leaves many more questions than answers.

Warmly,

George

[Verve]

25. Geo! I hear ya. But what the postee was trying to do was to recreate

a post that was started this morning when the Cybernet owner was under police stand off and then ended up killing himself. There was a lot of information on that sight and now it's gone for some unknown reason. Please give the postee the benefit of the doubt.

[geo]

43. Hi Verve.

Hi there,

This is not a new topic on DU at all. Nor is it a new topic at BBV.

This post seriously lacks clarity of thought, it is long, and has tons of links. At least one of the links references back to a thread were someone was posting the same non-sensical data and analysis for days at BBV, making wild acusation, util a moderator over there finally had enough and locked down the thread because it would take hours to clean up all the garbage otherwise.

This is a red herring, and the consistency with which we see it rehashed so non-sensically is disturbing and disruptive. The end result is DU members are spun in circles trying to make heads or tails of the data, and the ones that buy in while investigating get demoralized. This is aside from the obvious point that our least lucid posts can be used against us. I have no interest in being labeled part of the "tin-foil" cap briggade.

Warmly,

George

[Verve]

44. Good point Geo! But we're all adults here. Don't you think we

can try to figure out all this stuff ourselves?

Ever heard of Free Speech?

Warmest thoughts, Verve

[geo]

48. HI Verve

Hi Verve,

"The best cure for speech you don't like is more speech." I forget who said it right now, but I've always loved that quote. Keep in mind that is exactly what I am doing. I don't like the post. I think it is horrible, and is one of numerous attempts I have personally seen to derail good discussion by having us all determine for ourselves that this is a load of bunk.

My posts never say "do not read," but instead urge the reader to read cuatiously and be vigilant in not having their time be wasted. It is a long post, and I've been in several threads now were some forum writer has acted like this, and this is a great topic to send folks fishing on because frankly, they'll be there for days trying to make heads or tails of it.

Warmly,

George

[intelle]

71. I agree with you Verve

For some reason, George appears in every thread dealing with this topic and does his darndest to debunk it.

Me thinks he protesteth too much.

[geo]

80. Every thread? Please post links...

Hi intelle,

Since you seemed so fixated on smashing my argument with personal attacks, why don't you back it up. Post links to all those threads I am on so people can see just how often I post this vigorously.

Common and back your claim. I'm sick to death that a forum like this would jump all over the dissenting voice with personal attacks. Attack my argument, not me.

- George

[geo]

81. I'm missing Olberman

Hi all,

All this time fending off ridiculous personal attacks and now I'm missing Olberman. Seriously not cool.

Be back at five, and you cats owe me a few apologies. Nobody should be attacked so vigorously for pointing out the obvious. My dissent was not only reasonable, but was well qualified and still urged others to verify my claim for themselves.

I feel seriously jumped on. Olberman better be good tonight.

- G

[AusTexDem]

86. if its obvious why point it out?

I'm just asking. And instead of a tin-foil thread for post like seemslikeadream's. how about a thread for critiquing others peoples posts?


my apologies in advance.


"Nobody should be attacked so vigorously for pointing out the obvious."

[intelle]

87. I am reacting to feeling patronized

One post to the effect that a certain thread may not be cohesive is fine, but continued efforts to state this over-and-over again says to me that the poster who does this does not think that the average post reader has enough common sense to be able to determine the legitimacy of a thread for him or herself.

This, to me, is not only patronizing, it is disrespectful.

Enough said. There is always the ignore list.

:nuke:

[AusTexDem]

126. i think that was my point also.

I happen to agree with Geo's assessment of the post to some degree. But, I came to that conclusion all by myself. I don't like being told what is important and what isn't. If I did I'd watch cable news.

Think for yourself and you discover yourself.

[geo]

131. I can accept that criticism...

Hi AusTexDem,

I am glad you gave that followup, and apologize for any impression I might have given that others could not figure it out. My concern wasn't so much that people couldn't; it's that people will lose time and get frustrated doing it; not everyone, but many. Also, I had seen this or posts just like it for days, and the same lack of lucidity was present in each. I just felt that people were getting played with on a regular basis and it just made me angry to think that someone would do that in this and other forums like it.

Next time I'll try to be a little more low key when shouting "watch out for that tree!" I still think having the criticism on the thread was valid, but I can see better ways of phrasing my concern.

Warmly,

George

[AusTexDem]

182. Happy Thanksgiving Geo

I never thought your intentions were anything other then to be helpful. And to tell you the truth I do in fact appreciate a "Heads Up"when it comes to fishy sources and the like.Although I usually check them out myself anyway. So, you are also right. In the light of day it is more clear that you are here because you care. Not to set of a bomb.

Have a safe holiday

[geo]

214. Sorry I didn't see this sooner....

I hope your Thanksgiving was a good one! :) - G

[intelle]

85. You are awfully sensitive, George.

I owe you no apology. All I did was point out the truth, and say that I think you protest too much.

Whatever you want to infer from that is your problem.

[NVMojo]

100. me thinks he is a cybernet or fbi or amway employee??

geo. that is.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

113. AGREED

Let's NOT RESPOND to these people anymore. They are ruining our communication, and keeping us from our task, which is their goal.

[geo]

118. all three

and I moonlight as Karl Rove. :P

You all are so far off it makes me laugh. I'll just chalk this up to the stress of the election getting to us all.

You guys didn't like what I was saying; that doesn't make me anyone but me: geo.

I have written a number of posts on DU, BBV, etc. Feel free to see how often I make a point in a forum and get pounced like this. This is a first.

Get some sleep, I am not outside in your bushes, and if you take the tin-foil cap off, I won't be reading your mind and stealing your thoughts. I will be too musy playing poker with an alien I met at Roswell sometime after being involved in offing J.F.K. After that I simply must overthrow a small county or I'll be bored out of my mind.

Yep. You got me. :)

When you wake up and realize that I'm just some really nice guy who gew concerned about this trend and chose to speak about it, you are more than welcome to send me a quick note saying so.

Warmly, and with humor,

George
p.s. At least you didn't call me the B-word. I was waiting for you to say something because my name is George. Thank heaven for small courtesies. :)

[shraby]

152. geo...did you ever think maybe that

collecting data is the first step in trying to get a handle on a story? If one doesn't look, one doesn't find, and it's difficult at best to ferret out all the pieces without someone like you posting in between the pertinent pieces. Leave seemslikeadream alone and maybe the story can be sorted out. If you can't contribute, maybe you shoud find something else to do.

[AnIndependentTexan]

49. George, I'm not looking into it anymore but I do think they have the right

to look into it. I understand your view point on spinning DU'ers and I think I have come up with a honest suggestion that will help anyone who is talking about it. If these posters want to keep looking into it how would you feel if they put tin-foil in the topics that they create. It would be a warning to people who think it is off the wall. If the tin-foil in topic isn't enough what if the other forum members who want to work on it still ask if they can have the admins set up a forum called tin-foil.

This would give them the ability to research without confusing other DU'ers. Because of the label tin-foil on the forum you would know that it is still just theory and not full facts. Would that work out with everyone?

[geo]

54. The best cure for speech you don't like is more speech!

Hi AnIndependantTexan,

I wouldn't go as far as to sugest they label themselves as tin-hat wearing folks; I just want lucidity in the presentation of the data. I am happy with the topic, if we can bring it back to the land of the logical.

Reasonable disclosure is all we need here. If the writer wants to dive headfirst into fiction, that is fine, but we need to know. Also, breaking it down into something intelligible wouldn't hurt either.

We've had several conversations, AnIndependantTexan about the merits of this particular issue, its handling and the affect that has come from its handling. You should know that I am all for people speaking their minds, but free speech was never meant to protect people who disparage other people with reckless disregard for the truth. As much as I have a gut feeling some of these people and corporations have been unscrupulous in certain areas, I can't start making wild accusations without some linkage to the truth.

Know what I mean?

Warmly,

George

[AnIndependentTexan]

57. That is why I'm making the suggestion

tin-foil doesn't always mean tin-hat wearing folks. I'm also wondering about maybe a different name as well for it. The speech wouldn't be limited, but it would give anyone who wants to a chance to understand what is being put out.

Here is the way I think of tin-foil: A theory or reason that has not been proved. Most tin-foil theories are in the starting phase of research. Remember the separate forum idea is also just a start of creating a stable place for everyone. What would be a better name for it?

[geo]

62. A "Tin-Foil" header might have helped here

Hi AnIndependantTexan,

I just wouldn't want us to be a label we imposed on others, but franjly, if I write anything even close to the piece up above (which I wouldn't burden anyone with) I probably would put a reference to the proverbial tin-foil cap in the header. It's not a bad idea, but I think it is on the author to disclose the nature of the piece thay produce. After that, it's up to us to discuss it.

It's kind of like in debate (I'm an ex-debate guy myself); there are certain ground rules in debating and discussing topics. Someone makes a claim that has no link, then you attack it and say it has no link, etc. The theory is that in the end, the audience wins by watching the clash of the issue.

If we know the ground from within we which we examine these issues, then we have a better feel for whether this is the debate we want to jump into, whether the time is warranted, or if we are exchanging hunches based on conjecture and convoluted thinking.

Frankly this post doesn't even rank in the tin-foil hat catagory, as I would probably entertain some of what goes on in that arena. ;)

Warmly,

George

[AnIndependentTexan]

68. I think this goes back to us all being individuals

There are a set of rules that guide use YES, but we are all individuals and think on different levels. This is why we need to understand were the other person is coming from. I honestly don't know what is best, but I think we are to the point were talking to each other about how we feel is important.

One of the problems we've come across is you said it was at BBV and caused problems. Some of us don't go there and we aren't up to speed on what happens. Some of us also understand things differently then others. The hardest thing about internet forums is you don't know the persons face. Debate is kind of hard since we aren't face to face. We really can not set up a predebate rule because we don't know who all the other people in the room are.

I'm just seeking a peaceful solution of understanding. Right now we can make a difference but lets talk out a peaceful solution that everyone can agree on.

[m berst]

114. why don't you worry about yourself?

If you aren't interested, then stay off of the thread - your problem is then solved for you.

The op explained what he was doing. No one here needs your lectures as to what we should or shouldn't be doing.

Cooly,
Mike

[geo]

120. Am interested

Hi Mike,

I was looking out for others. Us Dems do that. :)

It wasn't meant as a lecture. I used the word "urge" when recounting my experience with this and similar threads. Since expressing my concern, I was pounced with responses, and have individually addressed each person who responded. That makes it appear that I have an abnormally large number of posts, but it is really just me getting back to folks who are responding to what I said. Sometimes, unfortunately this includes warding off unecessary personal attacks.

On a serious note, you'll see later in this thread where a few others of us good guys have encountered this thread, dove headfirst into it, and came out very frustrated. At first I would encourage the drafter and ask quesions and all I, or anyone esle would get back is another link to check out that made no sense. This has been the game associated with this post, and it is my strong opinion that this could very well be a tactic used to keep this wonderful, fabulous DU forum spinning around needlessly.

Perhaps my lack of patience for gameplaying is spurring my desire to urge caution, but it is also out of genuine concern for the time, energy and moral of the whole team here. In every post I have written I have been consistent in urging people to make the determination on their own, but to be vigilant in making sure they aren't getting sucked into a time-trap.

I hope my concern can be appreciated. The others treat this like the McCarthy era where anything you say they don't like you are all of a sudden a communist; in this case freeper. I have to admit that when you see a lot of posts in a thread, and the posts belong to a member of a dissenting group, it could be used to derail productive conversation, but what it different here is that there ISN'T the chance to have a productive conversation here because of the convoluted presentation in the main post.

At this point, after getting attacked McCarthy style for hours now for speaking my mind, I wouldn't mind seeing a few others try to make heads or tales of this non-sensical set of data.

Even if my words aren't so graceful in this thread, my intentions are. I still urge caution in spending forever and a century trying to prove the main posts point for it because the presentation is grossly convoluted. It is not a lucid piece by any means, and perhaps by all of us making a big deal about it today, we won't see the non-sensical side of this issue every day, sidetracking valiant DU member after valiant DU member.

Hope that helps. :)

Warmly,

George

[m berst]

122. oh come on

You aren't being attacked McCarthy style, and if this thread is spinning off into wasted effort then it is because you are posting over and over again and arguing with people about - you.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[m berst]

135. wow

I have no idea what you are talking about, but you sure are doing a lot of talking.

What pranksters? What personal attacks? What nerves? What circles?

[ooglymoogly]

196. would you guys cut the crap

don't you think the majority of us can read a long post and come to our own conclusions and wait for other corroboration. stuff like your mother wears army boots doesn't cut it. we are fighting for our democracy here.

[Chimpanzee]

240. Some advice for you geo

If you don't like reading a particular thread why don't you just ignore it. You are really starting to piss alot of people off and I am beginnning to think your intentions are less than honorable.

[Must_B_Free]

8. Cliff Baxter, anyone?

The man who knew too much was a risk of spilling the beans to save himself.

[nolabels]

121. Rats !!! Baxterized again

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/baxterautopsy.html

[dewaldd]

14. Did he really kill himself, or was he knocked off?

[geo]

24. Following each other off a cliff....

Hi all,

This post is a wild goosechase. I would urge anyone reading to just read enough to know that they are getting sent in circles. This is one of several attempts I have seen on DU, BBV, etc. to get us spinning in circles on a conspiracy claim that lacks any clarity of thought when making its claims.

This is another in a series of convoluted threads aimed at keeping us from discussion that is far more germain, in my opinion. My advice is to check it out just long enough to see that for youself, or demand greater clarity in the post with more than conjecture as a basis for linkage to the Nov. 2nd election.

Notice how quickly we start talking about some guy who offed himself after being investigated for fraud, and most of us haven;t even asked ourselved how our thoughts were cast in that direction to begin with. Look hard at the links. They just aren't there in any substantial fashion.

Freepers creepers already. :)

Warmly,

George

[Carl Brennan]

67. What a weird post. You seem to be trying to get people

to stop reading a topic that was pieced together from a "disappeared" one. Seemslikeadream has clearly pointed this out and yet you keep going on about lack of cohesion, etc. You sound like a broken record.

Who are you working for?

[geo]

75. How Rovian to use ad hominem attack

Hi Carl,

"Who do you work for?"????? Are you seriously that paranoid??

My posts have been very level headed, and despite your series of allegations that my intentions are ill, my posts have never told readers to not verify my claims for themselves. My claim is that the piece lacks coherency. I point to the piece and urge people to read enough to see it for themselves.

You attack me instead of my argument, and beyond not being very kind, it is very discouraging. Can't you see that you are using the infamous ad hominem attack against me?

Please reconsider your words.

Warmly,

George

[eowyn_of_rohan]

23. Reposting this at Seemslikadream's request....

We (at least I) need to find more about Cybernet Ventures, supposedly connected with Bay Point Schools, et al.

As far as I am aware, it has not been shown to connect to CyberNET Group, Cybernet Engineering, CyberNET AsiaPacific, Inc, and Cybernet Manufacturing, which ALL are THE CyberNet which was just raided by the FBI.

Still, I have seen no proof that these 2 Cybernets do NOT connect...

There is plenty of weirdness surrounding the CyberNET Group, that the "other" cybernets are also involved in, including involvement in online and casino gambling, the entertainment and media industry, medical (DRUGS?) industries, etc. This CyberNET is known for its "Zero Footprint Computing (server based computing with a new twist)" etc.

Bluedog found this:
Cybernet Internet Services International, Inc. ("Cybernet Inc") (formerly known as New Century Technologies Corporation) was incorporated under the laws of the State of Utah on September 27, 1983. Cybernet Inc changed its state of incorporation to Delaware in November 1998. Effective September 16, 1997 the Company acquired Cybernet Internet Dienstleistungen AG ("Cybernet AG"), a German
stock corporation which offers a variety of Internet related telecommunication and systems integration services to corporate customers. Cybernet AG was founded in December 1995, and commenced significant operations in 1996.

Here is a bit on how "New Century Technologies Corporation" became CyberNET-- namely, while still in Utah, they acquired the German company named CyberNET. So, although it is listed legally as a foreign profit corporation in the Michigan State records, it obtained this status through acquisition and merger in 1997:
News Release
Thursday 17 April 1997, 16:57 GMT Thursday 17 April 1997
BUSINESS
New Century Technologies
NEW CENTURY TECHNOLOGIES SIGNS LETTER OF INTENT FOR THE ACQUISITION OF CYBERNET AG
Salt Lake City, Utah, April 17 - New Century Technologies Corp. ("The Company") is pleased to announce that it has signed a letter of intent for the acquisition of 100% of the issued and outstanding stock of CYBERNET AG, a private German corporation ("CYBERNET") which is a leading business Internet provider headquartered in Munich, Germany.
~~~~~
I found these, which were particularly strange...

Graphic Design - Internet Design - Interior Design --
Cyber Net Group
Contact: TEHRAN IRAN
Telephone: [phone] fax: E-mail: [e-mail] Website: www.cybernet-co.com
(Led to:)
1mpactincognito—What'sUp
... 04.07.26 - 1ntervuincognito featuring Robert Chang. 04.07.08 - 1mpactincognito named
Site of The Day at Designers Depot. 04.07.01 - Moved to Ardhosting. ...
1mpact.axisfront.com/whatsup3.htm - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

~~~~~
Subject: WARNING - VIRUS ALERT No.36
Date: Saturday, 20 Nov 1999 18:58:00 GMT
W97M/Prilissa is a new Melissa variant. AVERT has assigned it a risk assessment of MEDIUM?ON WATCH. There has been a serious outbreak in Europe, and it is expected to travel quickly.
W97M/Prilissa infects Word 97 files. It propagates itself by creating an MS Outlook email with the subject line "Message From (Word 97 username)" and the message text: "This document is very Important and you've GOT to read this !!!"
It sends this message, with an attached copy of the infected Word 97 file, to the first 50 entries in any address book it finds. It does this only once.
W97M/Prilissa includes a destructive payload! If the date is December 25 of any year, it will modify the AUTOEXEC.BAT file so that the next time the computer is booted, the hard drive will be formatted, causing a loss of all data. In addition, the following message will be displayed in Word 97:
"(C) 1999 - CyberNET
Vine... Vide... Vice... Moslem Power Never End...
You Dare Rise Against Me... The Human Era is
Over, The CyberNET Era Has Come!!!
"

[SomthingsGotaGive]

26. Kind of like Bush not seeing ....

Any proof that Saddam Didn't have WMD.

"Still, I have seen no proof that these 2 Cybernets do NOT connect..."



Keep digging. You might be the first person to prove the double negative.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

34. On how embarrassing!

Thanks for pointing it out (I think)

[SomthingsGotaGive]

50. Yes No malice intended.

I was just pointing out the logic involved in trying to prove that a company has positively no link to another.

Maybe the CEO's went to the same high school together and made a bet to see who could make the most money and decided to both call their company Cybernet.

Meanwhile Millions of votes were thrown in the garbage because they came from areas that voted overwhelmingly Democratic.

Why focus your outrage toward a long-shot chance of tying this company to electronic vote tampering?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

88. Very important point

Aimless outrage in the beginning, then trying to find anything and everything, until I finally came to a screeching halt a couple days ago, and realized I need to choose my battles more carefully, pick one or 2 i think i can actually make a difference with, then do what it takes to carry it/them to fruition (if possible). Trouble is, it is easy to get caught up in these "research opportunities", partly because gathering info on the internet is less daunting than the other things i should be doing.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

123. Thank you for being Honest n/t

I think you just said what many are afraid to.

Thanks.

[Verve]

28. Does anyone get the feeling that their are people lurking on this

sight whose main goal is to diffuse this Cybernet story? I thought this story was a load of crap but the more people try to tell us to not look into this story (without giving solid reasons) the more I'm getting suspicious!

[alittlelark]

39. no kidding, there are also a few desperately trying to

say that the Ukrainian Election Theft is not important.

[geo]

47. Hi alittlelark

Hi alittlelark,

I have a feeling Verve is thinking my motives are bad, so I wrote back to her and now to you under the same sub-thread.

Just want to point out that attacking the integrity of a claim is key to good debate. Even though I personally believe this post is intended to spin us around a bit, you'll notice I still encourage others to read on at least until they see it for themselves.

Also, unlike some of these folks, my posts are written very thoughtfully and span over a range of topic. For instance, the Ukraine issue alone, I have left numerous posts about how that is a positive piece of news for based on my experience as a former news editor and writer. My analysis is often more in depth than not, and follows a very logical and readable flow. I always do my best to stay away from rhetoric and strive to make sure that my personal statements are well based so that others can attack my claims should they see an error in my analysis.

Frankly, this makes the main post in this thread the exact opposite of what I personally believe brings good forum discussion.

I don't even mond so much the info looks like it came straight off a scratch pad, but we need to know as much before diving into it like it is an analysis piece.

Holpe that helps dispell th emyth I am a lruking freeper. Kind of made me laugh though. :)

Warmly,

George

[Verve]

51. Geo, I apologize if I'm seeming a bit paranoid. Yet your incessant

postings asking us not to look into this, reminds me of another DUer who adamantly tried to disrupt the mysterious disappearing thread this a.m. I must say you come across as much nicer than he yet your motives seem to be the same. That is, you do not want people looking into Cybernet. Maybe, you're just trying to be nice and trying to save us from the dead end headache. Yet, most people would let this go after they posted their concerns once. You, and he keep going on and on about why we shouldn't look into this. Yet, you don't give solid evidence as to why we shouldn't.

[geo]

56. Hi Verve... The why

Hi Verve,

Thanks for saying I am nice, btw. :)

A quick response to this last post. You said, "you do not want people looking into Cybernet. Maybe, you're just trying to be nice and trying to save us from the dead end headache."

Yes I am trying to save you all from a headache many of us have already dealt with, but at the same time I did urge people, specifically to read until they were sure of it themselves. I have been consistent in urging people to see the lack of coherency for themselves.

You also mentioned "Yet, you don't give solid evidence as to why we shouldn't" look into this.

My problem is with the post far more than the topic. Also, with regard to who provides what proof, the burden is on the claimant. My claim is that the piece is incoherent, which means it is on me to prove it. I point to the piece and say urge others to read enough to see it for themselves. That is the evidence I offer, and it is there for independant evaluation. On the other hand, the evidence offered in the claims made in the post is just not there. There are plenty of statements of fact (perhaps) and links, but there is no coherency and the relevance of the statements of fact and links just aren't there.

I don't like what was posted. I think it serves to derail discussion much more germain to our interests. The instances of such are repetative, and I hope by discussing the validity of these posts actively we will fall for such ploys less and less often.

We shouldn't censor even the most illogical posts, and likewise we shouldn't hesitate to blast away at the claims made in such posts. This is what makes good discussion. :)

Warmly,

George

[intelle]

73. If you don't like the thread, George, don't read it. n/t

[geo]

77. How did this get turned on me??

Hi all, again,

The reason I have so many posts here isn't that I like saying the same thing over and over again. It is because a number of you jumped my case when I gave a dissenting opinion about this post.

I feel several of you ower me the courtesy of an apology for jumping me so hard. I dissented. In a forum like this why am I the one getting beaten to a pulp for addressing the clear fact that this post might very well be inteneded to send everyone spinning in non-sensical data. I never said don't read, but in fact said do read long enought to see this for yourself.

I have seen a string of similar posts presenting non-sensical data, and then people get frustrated, demoralized, etc. and leave. Whether intended as such, this post is toxic in that regard. I do not mind the topic and at one point read and read and read through all the gobbledeegook to see if anything was there. Then I realized that the post itself was the problem, not the issue. The data and the analsysis present each time I have seen a post like this has sent people to the dark ends of the earth trying to make sense of it.

My dissent was aimed at showing others that this post may very well be intended to manipulate us. And for my dissent I get labeled.

Several of you owe me an apology.

- George

[Chimpanzee]

243. You should apologize for hijacking this thread

Go back to freeperville:nopity:

[alittlelark]

132. You are transparent

go find another site to post in - I would recommend one if you want.

[geo]

154. that sucks...

and I know you see my other posts on DU because I responded to one of your posts within the last few hours in another thread.

I wish I was tranperent. :) You wouldn't be sending me to another site. I am genuinely concerned, as are others. Read through the more recent posts and they tend to share my sentiment of caution on this issue.

Feel free to PM or e-mail if you wish to continue chatting about my posts in this thread. I am trying to decrease the back and forth were I can, but simply will not allow personal attacks to go unanswered.

If I might offer an alternative suggestion to attacking people who don't like the way this and similar postings have been popping up the last few days (in the same non-sensical fashion, btw), then build the case up. The case against Cybernet as a part of election tampering as it stands has been a major red herring the last several days. I've seen it at DU, BBV, etc. The pattern is the same. Lay down a claim with a series of non-sensical and loosely related facts and then watch us try to make heads or tails of it. And if we try to ask questions that can't be answered, either we get fed more non-sensical data, get attacked (this is the first time they did it to me, but I have seen it elsewhere), get other angered non-sensical responses, etc. It got so bad at BBV that the moderator shut down those threads because it would have taken too many hours to clean them up again, because they make numerous allegations with no factual basis. The threads over there lasted for days before this happening, and other like myself spent a lot of time trying to make sense of the data, trying to help and encourage the poster in making clearing up the data, and the pattern emerged. That's how I spotted the pattern at other sites.

To further back what I am saying, please look later in the thread. The pattern is starting to show itself outside of my exchange with these two: another DU member asked for just one shred of evidence that backs the claim that Cybernet is tied to election tampering. While I would be o.k. with someone admitting the evidence was weak or not there, but this joker replied simply "PROVE IT SHOW ME THE LINKS," or something like it. Look for yourself.

Also look at other threads on this topic as of late and you will see the same pattern over and over and over again.

They are likely freepers. Now if they start making sense, let me know and let me know fast!! I would love nothing more than to see someone go down for their role in this! If you read my other posts I you'll see that I am actually quite proactive in trying to get people caught and punished for their roles in this and put forward the best I can in my posts. I am just concerned about the integrity of this forum if these people keep doing this.

Maybe the stink we make this time will make people aware enough of this tactic that they won't buy into it anymore.

Warmly,

George

- G

[SomthingsGotaGive]

45. I gave you a couple of very good reasons not to look into this story.

So did Bozo.

I too am disappointed the other thread was removed because now again the topic looks legit.

Especially coming from seemslikeadream.

The guy might have been a crook and this Cybernet might be worth checking out but it doesn't warrant being in this forum.

This is....

2004 Election Results and Discussion


Lets help Black people get some justice, and their votes counted instead of chasing phantoms.

Fraud has been discovered and there are smoking guns.


seemslikeadream knows full well we could be here unraveling the BFEE for 10 yrs. This is a noble pursuit but we have an election that was stolen the old fashioned way, and we need to stop it now.


The BFEE isn't going anywhere. In fact it would be much easier to take them down if they were out of power.

Wildly searching web links hoping for connections to appear seems foolish when there are OBVIOUS examples of fraud in Ohio and Florida that DEMAND investigation.


For example.

1. Who is responsible for allotting voting machines to the precincts and what are their connections to the GOP

2. How many under-votes were cast in the precincts with an unexpectedly low turnout.

3. How many people couldn't/wouldn't wait in line to vote.

4. What was the ethnic and income breakdowns of the provisional ballots and under-votes.


Anyway you get my point.

I am sorry I was offensive. I am sick and tired of people not seeing the racist overtones in this continuing quest to find the smoking gun when black people, and poor people, across the country look to the rest of us for some support or even acknowledgment.

[geo]

46. Lurking is not a reason to believe....

Hi Verve,

If you read the just over 100 posts I have written you'll see that I am far from being someone who lurks, waiting to sidetrack people from a real find. Normally my voice is the one screaming "report it" or "look into this," etc. My posts are written with great conideration for others, and yet I urge people not to spend anymore time on this post than they need to see that the post lacks lucidity.

I would welcome any post about cybernet et al that was intelligible, and had good validity. This post does not.

I've wondered myself if all this gobbledeegook is a part of mudding up something real. Imagine Cybernet or some other organization had something to do with election tampering, but we were so burnt out on crackpot posts that we were numb to legitimate findigs. That would not be good.

I would encourage the writer of this post to seriously clean it up, get it more coherent, show the logic flow, etc., if they truly believe that the data they have is worth reviewing.

Freepers can play the game of making us spin in circles. Look at the end results... not very unlike the end result one of them would want for us.

Stay sharp. Stay focused. :) We'll find the truth.

Warmly,

George

[BlueDog2u]

58. This is quite true

I have read your other posts, Geo, and you have always set a very high standard of politeness and thoughtfullness. But what you may not be seeing here are several facts:

1) Some of your predecessors in the attempt to discredit or downplay research into Cybernetics Group and Accenture were grossly insulting not just to one, but to many of those who had a sincere interest in the subject;

2) For some as yet unexplained reason, a major thread of material (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=75595&mesg_id=76096) was deleted without comment by forum administrators. Many participants were interested in this thread. Whether or not the thread met your high standards for relevancy is, I submit, hardly a rationale for this removal. If there was a problem with one post on the board, why didn't the administrators simply follow the usual procedure of tombstoning that post? The wholesale removal, particularly in the absence of any coherent justification, smacks of the worst kind of censorship and will only have the result of inflaming further interest in a topic you say is not worthy of our consideration

3) Even on this thread, some of your fellow debunkers are using offensive language. For instance, it is implied that anyone with an interest in this topic must be a racist, because they don't take a more active interest in voter suppression. That's ridiculous, and it is also insulting. I happen to teach at an African American University in the middle of a slum in Baltimore. I'm profoundly outraged by the theft of African American voters right to participate in a free, fair, and open election. I've posted many comments to these boards in recent days about voter suppression. I've sent emails to Mr. Blackwell expressing my outrage over his mistreatment of Ohio voters. I've contributed extensively to calls for volunteers on the Vote Fraud Board, joining in the effort to compile lists of media people who have given thoughtful coverage to BBV. The fact that I am also interested in following what is happening with the Cybernet bust, or researching Accenture's involvement with worldwide electronic voting in no way diminishes my concern over these other issues, and I really wish the individual who made those thoughtless remarks would apologize for them.

4) You say that you need to take a look at the (now tombstoned) thread to form a judgement about whether the material contained on the thread is worthy of DU discussion. Again I submit that your own personal standard relevancy is not the appropriate issue here. Relevancy is in the eye of the beholder, and if Administrators wanted to question the relevancy of the thread to this particular board, and move the thread to another with a request that the discusion be held in that venue, I doubt that anyone would have objected. I certainly wouldn't have. Instead what has been done is a chilling reminder of the power of certain individuals to control a discussion they don't like by destroying all evidence that the discussion ever took place. Now, I am quite willing to admit that probably the intentions of the adminstrators were perfectly legitimate. I don't really think there is a conspiracy to prevent discussion on this topic at DU. But I do think that a serious mistake has been made, one with lasting negative consequences to the moral integrity of this forum.

Now I'll shut up and go away. I doubt I'll be participating much in future discussions here, however. I'm deeply disappointed by the whole experience. I expected a more mature leadership.

[geo]

66. Hi BlueDog2U... excellent points

Hi BlueDog2U,

You make some excellent points, and thank you for the welcoming coments about my participation in the forum.

You post allowed me to see more of the history of this series of threads. I agree that removal of a thread without explanation seems sacreligious, and I would hope that DU administrators at least give a reason. Likely it has something to do with defamation law. The allegations made at times in some of the threads I saw were not hedged and flew in reckless disregard for the truth. Even so, they should clean up the touble posts and repost the thread, in my opinion.

And I am sorry to hear that some used this as an opportunity to be abusive. I hope my loud dissent over this post is not treading on that ground.

Perhaps, if the original post was not meant to send us spinning for no reason, we could see the post get editited down and cleaned up. If the bulk is still there, maybe an organized summary of the links and statement of facts could be arranged. I wouldn't mind reading more, but I am very tired of seeing people spin this topic in such a way that just keeps us spinning for hours and/or days.

Warmly,

George

[NVMojo]

103. I found the intial posting interesting, all this sidetracking

has gotten on my nerves.

[Pepper32]

223. My sentiments exactly, thank-you!

The majority of this thread seems to be sponsored by FOX news. I never took the OP's post as etched in stone or as indisputable facts. I understood post as intended, an effort to gather information that was lost.

Information that MANY were looking for... I can't say that I was one of them however, I would NEVER impose my needs, wants or ideals on anyone.

If a group of people want this information to investigate further who are we to SAY NO and BASH the hell out them for wanting it?

Whether the information was formatted in a way that it could be ready for main stream media publishing, was not an issue or goal. I honestly believe the OP was just trying to HELP others that were looking for THIS information.

Nothing more or less! We have no evidence pointing to the OP, to believe otherwise.

Too bad the OP's post was cleverly attacked over and over again - in the shadow or name of defense. This tactic seems to have the same reasoning as Bush attacking/killing Iraqi's in defense of America because of 9-11, yet we have no evidence Iraqi's did or intended to do us any harm.

To attack a DU member credibility and character this way, should not be allowed. This thread, NO DOUBT will be very discouraging to others that may want to HELP with the overall goal (PROVING VOTER FRAUD AND SEEKING JUSTICE) in this manner.

Looks like mission accomplished. Democracy seems to exiting out of every door and vessel.

[Carl Brennan]

69. BINGO!! BINGO!! BINGO!!

That leads me to believe that this story is important. I've always said you can tell how important a topic is by how many people try to sidetrack it.

On top of it this story just disappeared.

[geo]

74. Oh lord....

Hi Carl,

I guess saving you all from a headache of a read is just going to get me accused of playing games. If you've read any of my other posts you'll see that this is not true.

I have typing for over an hour and a half to promote the idea that the lack of coherency in the post should be enough to get you all to ask the writer to edit it for clarity's sake alone. It makes no sense, and several people will no doubt be using the data provided to try to make heads or tails of it, which spins alot of people in circles.

It would almost make more sense to start from scratch with how convoluted the ideas in this post are.

I guess even the most dedicated of us turns into the boogie-man as soon as we dissent. This is very discouraging.

Maybe later when you read the other things I write, and/or look into the validity of the words in the mainpost you can officially take back the impication that I am playing games in this thread and/or have some interest in derailing good conversation. The post is gobbledeegook, and it should be apparent. That implication that I am ill willed wasn't very kind, and flies in the face of every word I have posted here at this site.

However, I am concerned abou the missing thread. As much as I am advocating reading just enough to know you are chasing your tail, I do think that info shouldn't disappear from the forum. Perhaps DU admin is having to clean it up for statements made in reckless disregard for the truth (defamation suits could be an issue), but an explanation wouldn't hurt.

Warmly,

George

[Carl Brennan]

79. Hee,hee. Keep talking

Yer just keeping the topic up at the top, hee, hee.

Plus: I already explained above why the topic lacked cohesion and you just keep repeating the same BS.

Plus: You haven't offered to help edit.

[Chimpanzee]

246. I'm not buying it!

"It would almost make more sense to start from scratch with how convoluted the ideas in this post are." - geo

Why don't you see if you can get someone to delete it again? You are so totally transparent! Whatever you may have posted in other threads is probably to establish a reputation of being a good DU'er, but you've really blown your cover in this thread. Your patronizing attitude is frankly infuriating and if you continue in this vein, you should be banned.

[nolabels]

84. I am with you, I was trying to quiz another poster on about that subject

and that whole other thread got deleted after I posted a simple question to one. What is this with some of these people?
Some of these folks must be one or two levels deeper than the normal garden verity of freeper :D

No matter, we will go on, we know them by the fruits they bring.

[KoKo]

32. Where did you find the "repost?" If you don't mind saying??? (n/t)

[geo]

33. Missing link

Hi all,

Remember that the game of "connecting the dots" is more than just shoving dots together in anyway that makes you feel you have something.

Again, I urge you to insist on a coherent argument behind the claims made in this post. I'm tired of watching good minds get wasted on such horrific "research."

To the original poster: please, if you believe so strongly that there is a link here, please be clear, concise and quick to show just what that link is.

My opinion is that we are getting spun around by the original post, and the numerous threads just like it I have seen over the last week or so.

There may very well be a connection between the election and corporate players, but this post doesn't aim at making a connection. The real result is that people will spend way too much time trying to digest this piece, independantly verify it, and through doing so go through the numerous links provided.

Freepers creepers, folks. :) Stay sharp.

Warmly,

George

[Verve]

35. Geo? You aren't related to Agent Mike are you?

[geo]

38. Hi Verve, Who is Agent Mike?

Hi Verve,

I guess the answer is no, but now I'm curious who Agent Mike is? :)

Warmly,

George

[Verve]

40. I'm just curious as to why you're adamantly trying to shut down this

thread! Usually, when I find myself in a bogus thread I give my 2 cents worth and then move on. It seems like you're spending an awful lot of time in a thread you think is bogus. I'm just curious. That's all.

[geo]

52. No worries...

Hi again,

That is understandable. Like I said before, I seen numerous threads on this topic, and they fall into certain patterns.

I am far from adimate about shutting this thread down. As a matter of fact my diligence keeps it high up on the list of most recently updated threads. I just want people to see how blatently some post writers attempt to spin this forum and get our valuable attention focused on sifting through a convulted mess of a claim.

There may be something in to the thought that corporations played a role in election tampering, but that doesn't give us any reason to toloerate posts that get us so far off the beaten path it hurts. I don't mind speculation, but endless links, etc. What I have seen in every thread that has evolved like this is major infighting and misunderstanding between legitimate forum writers, and a slew of instances where others dive head first into the murk and come back with questions, that only get answered with other pieces of non-sensical data.

At BBV, the moderator couldn't even handle where the post was going and locked it down, claiming that merely cleaning it up would take hours. The major concern were the number of unwarranted accusations made by the person who was arguing for this theory. This is just one of several instances, as I have mentioned.

See what I mean? :)

Warmly,

George

[Carl Brennan]

72. hee, hee. Why don't you ask Agent Mike....er geo.... to

apply his superior editing skills to making this topic more cohesive.

[KoKo]

41. I'd love to hear a "critique" of the post or a "coherent argument"

about what was posted. What was posted was fascinating indeed but I'm not sure I understand your comments?

Quote from your post:


Again, I urge you to insist on a coherent argument behind the claims made in this post. I'm tired of watching good minds get wasted on such horrific "research."

[geo]

61. Hi KoKo01

Hi KoKo01,

A full critique would take hours upon hours. What was in the post sure does grab your attention at first glance, but when you try to parce anything relevent out of it you start to spin in circles.

carolab posted in this thread. That post is a good example of coherent post addressing a similar topic. The post above doesn't logically back its claims. It is based on conjecture, and send those of us that are diligent in insisting on a factual basis spinning in circles looking for answers that just aren't there.

My urging was to have people read it with a vigiliance eye on the fact that this person could be purposely wasting you time.

Warmly,

George

[KoKo]

65. Just a few points in a "condensed critique" would be important, though.

I think that for folks to "condense" their work and thoughts into a few lines needs to depend on "guidance" from the folks doing the "criticism."

I understand what you say that the thread doesn't have "coherence." But, if you could give "gentle guidance" I think it would help. There are many DU'ers who are "Researchers" and it's helpful to narrow down topics to get folks involved. :shrug:

Can you say what you have a problem with...? Where should this be focused...if one parses out what's important? Or, should we allow our "free thinking" reserchers and Google bots to go after it? It's amazing what turns up when folks are NOT in straight jackets to search. But, I agree that much can become "Clutter."

Still...I'm on the side of MORE "Freeranging Research" INITIALLY than being "hard line" where we are forced to narrow in on too strick a topic or piece of info...

That's why I'm not in a College or University! LOL's! I'm a "free ranger" ...like those "organic products" some of us buy. Don't want restrictions, anti-biotics or to be kept in a cage........Free RANGE...

But, I do really understand what you say...

[geo]

93. Thanks for the feedback

Hi there,

Perhaps my patience, as with the others here who seem to be pounding me for allegedly being some kind of outsider (obviously folks who haven't read my posts elsewhere) is running thin with the tactics, or at least presumed tactics used by others to derail quality forum discussion.

My first post in this thread would have been enough for me, but obviously people wanted to post things in response to what I had said, so I responded wherever I felt it would help resolve the issue. While I'm certain some folks use this as a tactic to derail serious threads, it can hardly be said that was my mission. My responses were thoughtful, carefully written, and addressed each post one at a time. I think folks, perhaps myself to a small degree, are just a little touchy at the thought of people trying to derail serious discussion; of which one of several tactics can be to send us on wild-goose chases.

I did say this issue serves as a red herring. I believe it does and I have said why, especially in reference to the main post and posts I have read just like it. This does not mean there isn't a nugget of truth down there somewhere; it means that we should be cautious about being spun around and worn out. One would find in my posts within this thread both a cuation of following non-sensical data and analysis that doesn't on its face warrant such a pursuit, and a caution of getting burnt out on a topic that might someday spring some useful nugget that we can run with. Chasing an undercooked theory at the whim of people who seem to be purposely sending folks on a wild goose chase could really pull enough of our attention away from something worth that time.

Having said that, I must admit at my ability to edit that mess up there without at least a summary of what this means. The summary should be easy to read and have a logical flow. At that point, I would be more than happy to "get busy" on editing and even writing on this topic enough to help get a quality discussion under way.

You should have seen the absurdity around similar posts at BBV, btw. I was extremely encouraging of the fella over there, but eventually it was just blatently obvious that this guy was a little slow or was intending to keep us sidetracked.

I still think the others owe me an apology for the inappropriate accusations that I am ill-willed. I can appreciate the concern, because it was the concern that drove me in posting the warning on this post, but even in my warning to others I did not spend time personally atacking the writer. I attacked the piece rigorously, but not the writer. Furthermore, any legitimate concern with my position on this was answered with respect even when I thought folks were being ridiculours, like that flip comment about "who do you work for?"

I may protest to much, but keep in mind that my track record backs me up. Read my other posts. :)

Warmly,

George

[Chimpanzee]

248. You are very arrogant - please go away - thank you

[nolabels]

95. We have, that is why we are here

I will offer you no advice :hi:

[Pepper32]

227. Hmm....

How about the "partial" critiquing you used to base your opinion on the OP's post. If you can't produce that, how exactly did you come to your very opinionated conclusion about this post? Details and examples please. In advance, thanks!

"A full critique would take hours upon hours."

[Pepper32]

225. I second that motion. n/t

[Chimpanzee]

247. geo

member since Nov. 20th, 300 posts - and most were in this thread! Stop trying to lecture 60,000 people. I wonder why a moderator isn't doing anything about this guy? Why did a moderator delete the original thread? Have the moderators been infiltrated?

[nolabels]

133. Well this does make sense to me now

How and what different levels they connected to all the other ones were in the few servers that were working. They were providing the anonymity for people at different levels would be my guess. They were providing probably legit and un-legit service. They must of been the links to tie it together somehow.

The billionaires who were getting their MLM protection, the operatives from other places who were also using it for secure communications for the protections must have got some wild eye idea to splice some of that school action through there also.

How else could they have ever got connected. Just a theory, but that dead guy just seemed more like some kind of middleman and not no real wheel.

After all how many connections does a switchboard have anyway?

[dewaldd]

29. All the FOX and USAToday links have been removed!!!

download time!

[eowyn_of_rohan]

31. What do you mean? threads within these posts?

These disappearing acts--especially with entire blocks of info in Google searches (I am talking about getting several hundred hits on a particular search in the morning and ZERO later that day), give me the willies.

[KoKo]

36. I couldn't get the links posted to Fox to download either. They said they

were missing and I would have to go back and slog through Fox Mainpage to find the story. It could be that Fox just wants lots of hits to their HomePage...and so you see the ads while you search..or funny business was afoot.

Frankly, links to Fox for stories/articles had me "holding my nose" in the first place. Why would Fox report the truth of anything...and then for some of us to go on that site when we don't trust them makes me feel like they are trying to get me into their "Psy Ops" program devised by Rove to suck us in.

Why would Faux be the main one reporting on this??? hmmmmm

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

42. Links to Fox News items ...

Anyone have an earlier copy of the stories to compare, just in case?

http://fox17.trb.com/search/dispatcher.front?target=article&Query=cybernet

Article search results

3 articles found on search for: cybernet


More Troubles For CyberNET Group (New)
November 23, 2004
From the outside, the CyberNET Group facilities look pretty unassuming. Inside the renovated old warehouse on South Division, there's a lavish executive office, decorated with china, crystal, vases, paintings, all presumably expensive. FOX 17 News at Ten...

Lawsuit Provides Clues To CyberNET Investigation
November 18, 2004
Federal agents won't say why they're investigating an information technology company in downtown Grand Rapids, but a new civil lawsuit may provide some clues. The FBI, IRS and postal investigators raided CyberNET Group's corporate headquarters on...

CyberNET Group Raided By Police
November 17, 2004
Wednesday morning CyberNET Group employees showed up for work as usual, but they weren't allowed in. "Thought I found a good company and I come into work and a I see a bunch of cop cars and I wonder what the hell is going on," said Jerry Godert, a...

[KoKo]

60. Excellent! Your link brings up the three articles I was interested in....

BUT! I again say: Why is Faux/Fox so interested in this?

Red Herring? How could I possibly trust Faux/Fox for any news any more than I trust Matt Drudge who gets his information from Issikoff of the "Clinton Years."

I have to say...maybe I'm a "purist" on this..but it's Rove stovepiping to Fox to get us off the track of what we really should be focusing on...

If someone has NON-Fox Links...then it's worthwhile...but until then...it's a curious story...and maybe something is there if you "Google" WAY BACK and have the background to make the connections from other archives that don't link to Faux/Fox.

:shrug: Just my Humble Opinion Here...I hate acronyms so I spelled it out...:D

[The Backlash Cometh]

232. I wouldn't trust anything coming from Fox.

I think this story needs a few days to percolate to meet the test of time. I agree that something smells fishy and maybe metallic.

[Carolab]

53. DeVos--CNP--NWO--Diebold--ES&S--Sequoia--Accenture--and more

I found out that DeVos is a 33rd Degree freemason and heads up the Council on National Policy (CNP), the hard right wing's counterpart to the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations)--

http://www.cephasministry.com/conp.html

Then I found this:

MORE ELECTORAL SHENANIGANS


“Not later than 45 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall establish a program under which... A State shall... replace punch card voting systems or lever voting systems (as the case may be) in qualifying precincts within that State with a voting system (by purchase, lease, or such other arrangement as may be appropriate) that (A) does not use punch cards or levers.” –The Help America Vote Act of 2002

“ committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to next year.” –William Weld, CEO of Diebold, Inc.

Devoted readers of TFTGK will no doubt recall my recent piece on the ultra-Christian, ultra-right ownership of two of the three largest electronic vote counting companies in the nation, Diebold and ES&S and their dubious ties to the Bush administration. Well, more connections keep popping up, tying in the third largest purveyor of vote counting machinery, Sequoia Systems, Inc. and more links to the über-reactionary Council on National Policy.

This is a disturbing trend.

Electronic (computer) voting systems are now required by law in the US and are rapidly being exported throughout the world through such organizations as the International Foundation for Election Systems (IFES) – a company that oversaw recent elections in Brazil, Venezuela and Haiti – and whose founder F. Clifton White was a central figure in the Iran/Contra scandal of the 1980’s. These efforts are funded with taxpayer money through the National Endowment for Democracy and USAID, both quasi-governmental organizations that have been linked not only to Iran/Contra but (not so surprisingly) to the international drug trade as well.

Sequoia Systems is 20% owned by Madison Dearborn Partners, an equity leverage firm that in the last few years has joined partnerships on several occasions (in acquisitions worth several billion dollars) with the infamous Carlyle group, which has well documented ties to Bushes Jr. and Sr., Dick Cheney and the family of Osama Bin Laden. In fact Carlyle and Madison Dearborn, as of July of this year, joined together to buy the Williams Energy Group (WEG). Williams Energy is not only the largest manager of petroleum pipelines on the Eastern Seaboard but was also the central player in the California energy “crisis” that precipitated the downfall of (Bush connected) Enron and Anderson Accounting.

On the board of Williams Energy, now owned by a firm with familial ties to the Bush junta, is a man named Harold W. Andersen who happens to be a major investor in World Companies, Inc. the primary shareholder of vote-counting giant ES&S. Small world huh? Interestingly enough, Sequoia also bought out the optical scanner portion of a company called Business Records Corporation in a deal with ES&S to avoid an anti-trust suit with the Feds. Business Records Corporation was the owner of the databases leased to ChoicePoint USA, the firm that was at the heart of the Election 2000 Florida “purge” lists that denied up to 90,000 people their right to vote and became the basis for the party-line Supreme Court vote that catapulted W. to power.

The Bush connections don’t stop there. Leading the field of Internet-based voting are the venerable firms of Accenture and VoteHere. Accenture up until recently was a wholly owned subsidiary of the aforementioned Anderson Accounting, but now on its own, is the primary recipient of the Federal contracts to provide vote services for the US military and Americans overseas — in conjunction with the Halliburton Corporation, formerly run by Dick Cheney. (Strangely, Accenture has also been awarded contracts to provide airport security under the new Department of Homeland Security and to redesign the IRS website.) Second in line for this lucrative election market is VoteHere, based in our very own Bellevue, run by a man named Bill Owens. Mr. Owens used to be the senior military advisor to Dick Cheney and Frank Carlucci, CEO of the Carlyle Group. Amazing how these people keep it in the family.

Accenture (go figure) is not even on the list of accredited vote-gathering companies published by the Federal government. Nor is it on the widely discredited, but semi-official list provided by the National Association of State Election Directors. The only list that it does show up on is the one provided by the IFES. The current chairman of the IFES is William J. Hybl, appointed by Bush as senior advisor to the United Nations General Assembly. Mr. Hybl is also the CEO of the El Pomar Foundation, which recently provided $4 Million dollars to the Focus on the Family Foundation and is a charter member of the Council on National Policy along with Harold Ahmanson, the man who founded ES&S.

On edit: I read the IFES website yesterday and posted a link to it on the forum. It disturbed me because Accenture WAS on the list for "Voting Vendors", along with the others (Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia, etc.) I also read about VoteHere. VoteHere REALLY disturbs me because it is based on WIRELESS technology and uses encryption and RFIDs which is supposed to assure voters their votes were cast. If you recall, there was a stop put on the Diebold TSx touchscreens because they were able to be communicated with using wireless devices placed inside the boxes.

I don't know what this has to do with CyberNET exactly, but I remember they were involved heavily with wireless technology and with face recognition and IRFD chips--which are part of the VoteHere strategy--to place chips in voter receipts, I believe.

I was reminded of Bev's interview with Alex Jones:

AJ: Number one - why is the Defense Dept. and the private military industrial complex around it, that Eisenhower warned us would try to overthrow the country, why are they involved intimately......?

BH: It’s a classic conflict of interest.

AJ: It’s like Guatemala or El Salvador or Russia with a military coup.

BH: Yeah, they have no business in our voting system, period. And they are definitely involved. They have been involved through making voting machines, and they are involved in the voter registration system, and they are involved in a new thing now. Now here’s what I see coming down the pike. This lobbying effort, this whitewash effort, one of the things they also discussed was, “well what we need is to come up with our own certification standard. Not the federal election commission but our own. We’ll have the gold standard which will be of our own making.” Now I think what they are planning to do with the gold standard is this - there’s a company called VoteHere. VoteHere makes something that goes inside voting machines. It’s designed to go inside all the voting machines from all the manufacturers. It will be sort of like, you know, where they have that little label that says, “Intel Inside.” Well I think they will have a little thing that says, “VoteHere Inside.”

AJ: And they all just so happened to be designed where it could fit into them.

BH: What VoteHere does is they create a software program with cryptography that is supposed to verify our vote as voters so we don’t need paper. Okay? And then everybody, of course, will sign off on this - you know the Defense contractors and the Homeland Security - and they’ll say the cryptography is bullet proof.

AJ: Oh, this is all wonderful.

BH: You have to trust it if it’s got “VoteHere” inside it, you see. So I think what it’s aiming toward is you are going to see a move, and we are doing some pretty good work here to get the right questions asked so it may be more difficult than they expected. You are going to see a move though to try to switch again and say, “Okay well the voters insist on a voter-verified paper ballot. You know what you don’t need that. You need this bullet proof cryptography system. And we’ll put it inside all the voting machines.” Now guess who is the director of VoteHere?

AJ: Who?

BH: The chairman of the board of directors is also on the Defense Policy Board and he also the vice-chairman of the SAIC. His name is Admiral Bill Owen

AJ: Ohhhhhh

BH: And another director is Robert Gates, the former CIA Director. These are the people who are running Vote Here and have the wonderful cryptographic solution, trust us - just remember - trust us. And it will go into the voting machines and be the new gold standard so we should just trust them and we’d know we would never again need a paper ballot.

AJ: Well, Bev Harris, let me stop you for just a minute. This is just bombshell after bombshell. I’m begging the listeners, you know who we are, just like the Katherine Albrecht interview that you did a transcript of, I’m begging you - do the transcript. Get it to Paul Watson. We’ll get it up on prisonplanet.com, up on infowars.com so we don’t have to wait four months or three months for this to show up in the mainstream media with the spin on it. And we’ll put links, of course, to blackbox.com and have all that there for folks so we can get it out to everybody.

The key here is - Bev, were you aware of the folks over at nocards.com, Katherine Albrecht. She went to the meetings and then they got off onto the websites. They had a back door in it - the documents with the RFID tracker chips - that they want to replace the barcode with. And the secret meeting with Walmart and Proctor & Gamble...

BH: Oh, I heard about that, yes.

AJ: With Homeland Security talking about how to neutralize us, how to neutralize opposition and how to get the military industrial complex involved. I mean this is sinister. This is like The Running Man or something where you find out TV’s fake and pulling the curtain back. I mean this is so huge, Bev.

BH: I agree. People want to say, “Oh you guys are just crazy and stuff.” I have no idea, frankly, when my publisher went into this meeting. I had no idea about this - I knew that there was a Vote Here situation and that there was people involved in that. But I couldn’t quite figure out what Vote Here did until this meeting. But when we heard - and they were - I’m telling you there was like two paragraphs of conversation about the defense industry and how it had pushed the HAVA bill through and how maybe they could come in and help us now. By the way, there are two websites with this. Blackboxvoting.com does have the transcript on it. It’s not a complete transcript and it does have my publisher’s fairly opinionated notes along with it. (Laughs) Go ahead.

AJ: This is so huge. We’ve already caught them that a voting machines were a fraud. We’ve got the League of Woman Voters saying we don’t want a paper ballot or a record. We’ve got all this other police state stuff going on . And then you guys get into one of these little secret meetings. And you’ve got the Plain Dealer, Cleveland newspaper person hearing all of this. This is on the record. This is huge. I mean I don’t even have words to articulate how evil this is.

BH: I call it a business plan. You see people who say, “Are you a conspiracy theorist?” I say look this is a business plan. If you come right down to it, it’s a bunch of guys who want to control the world through business. I mean it’s a business plan. Okay, what we have to do is we have to do this and this. But the bottom line is, I’ve tried really hard not to and I did label just now - speculation is speculation is what I’m talking about. This stuff is fact. My facts check out. I have broken six or seven stories in a row now and not one of them has failed to check out. And virtually all of them have ended up getting covered finally six months later with a spin by the mainstream media, including the Washington Post and the New York Times and everyone else. It’s checks out and it’s to the point where now, okay, it’s making sense now. And by the way, defense contractors stand to make an awful lot of money if the vote goes their way. We spent what, a trillion dollars in the last 3 years?

AJ: Well yeah but let me stop you. I mean yeah, if they control the government, the government is going to give them more wars for more weapons but also the private defense contractors are getting into private prisons, homeland security operations, the face-scanning cameras, the biometrics, all of it, the RFIDs. I mean they are going to build a giant prison for us. They are taking over the voting. This is a late night science fiction horror movie from the 1980s.

[Carolab]

55. Self-promoting kick

It appears to me that the religious right is heavily involved in our voting technologies. I feel that the "left"--Soros and the CFR and the PPI--is vying for world control with the "right"--Bush and the CNP and PNAC. At this point, the "right" is winning because the votes are being controlled through the defense industry.

[kk897]

78. This is along the lines of what I've been thinking.

Carolab wrote: "It appears to me that the religious right is heavily involved in our voting technologies. I feel that the "left"--Soros and the CFR and the PPI--is vying for world control with the "right"--Bush and the CNP and PNAC. At this point, the "right" is winning because the votes are being controlled through the defense industry."

Personally, I think this conflict has been going on for ages. All we can ever see of the conflict, unless we're really "in the know," are moving shadows on the wall of the cave. We can make some guesses as to what's causing those shadows, but we can't be sure we're right.

I joke about being a conspiracy theorist sometimes, but I honestly do believe that there are relatively small groups of people (from all around the world and from all ethnicities and religions) who shape world events such that they maintain their power and wealth. Sometimes such conclusions are the only ones that seem logical to me (like this moment in history, for instance). I base these conclusions on a lifetime of reading, critical thinking, and analysis, but I will readily admit that I'm not particularly brilliant at any of these activities.

Nutcase or simply a wide reader with an open mind? You make the call.

[Verve]

97. Carolab, you should make this a new post. This is a lot of interesting

info! Great job!

[geo]

59. Now this is more like it

Hi all,

carolab: I've enjoyed several of your posts, btw. Thank you. :)

To all the others in this thread that heard me complain about the coherency of the main post, please read carolab's post as kind of an ideal on making claims against corporations or individuals that you believe may be involved with elections nonsense. It has a logical flow, is based on facts we can verify, and is overall a nice read. It doesn't spin us in circles, but instead gets us talking about how we can advance knowledge in this area.

Warmly,

George

[Niche]

64. There is an FBI investigation in Clark County about back door

deals on computers that were bought by state agency Victims of Crime at a huge price. I wonder if it has anything to do with Cybernet company and I also wonder if there's a real connection to electronic voting fraud? :smoke:

[NVMojo]

91. Clark County, Nevada as in Las Vegas???

you are smelling the same rat I am if that is the case.

[txindy]

94. You need to stop telling people what to read, what to post, & how to post

Unless you are a Moderator, you have no business telling anyone what they should post. You spend all of your time trying to kill threads and none of it actually investigating anything on your own. Like it or not, some info. from someone's post that spins YOU in circles may actually trigger a connection with one of the thousands of others who read it. Please stop attempting censorship here. Honest people do not try to kill ideas and creativity. What you've been doing is highly suspicious and utterly rude.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

111. Read this because it relates to, well, just about everything

http://www.democracyunbound.com/triplecrown.html

Now we need to find out where CyberNET fits in, exactly...

If it IS tied to Baypoint and Baypoint is tied to Semler and Semler is tied to Moon, Jeb Bush, and the Council for National Policy ...

I DID find this article, which indicates that DeVoes is involved in voucher schools as chairman of the Education Freedom Fund (EFF), in Florida and other states--and GET THIS reference to OHIO:

The "focus needs to shift to the state level," said DeVos, now that First Amendment concerns were resolved by the Supreme Court in a June decision involving Cleveland, Ohio's school voucher program.

Florida, Wisconsin, Texas, Colorado and Virginia top DeVos's list of "opportunity states."

In Florida, the National Education Association and its state affiliate poured millions into efforts to defeat Jeb Bush but failed; Wisconsin has a building block in the Milwaukee voucher program, even though the governor is neutral on expansion; and in Texas, both chambers of the legislature could be supportive, according to DeVos's analysis. Colorado, meanwhile, actually suffers from a "curse of the riches," with too many competing voucher plans, he reported.

(more) http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200212/NAT20021204a.html

And J. Kenneth Blackwell is ALSO a member of the Heritage Foundation, along with DeVos, et al...he's got a pretty interesting background in advancing technology in government, and "religious freedom" as well...

http://www.kenblackwell.com/bio.asp

[starroute]

256. You're confusing J. Kenneth Blackwell with Morton Blackwell

Morton Blackwell is a member of the Council for National Policy, a close friend of Paul Weyrich of the Heritage foundation, and the fellow who was handing out purple heart bandaids at the Republican Convention. He has also run several different schools for Nixonian dirty tricks, a couple of which Karl Rove passed through.

He is not the same person as J. Kenneth Blackwell, and as far as I can tell (and I spent some time researching it a couple of months ago), there is not even a family connection between them.

Furthermore, the only meaningful connection there seems to be between Richard DeVos and CyberNET is that they're both in Grand Rapids. That ain't saying much.

In other words, this story -- if it is a story at all -- has nothing to do with the Council for National Policy. That idea is a complete non-starter.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

176. CAN'T YOU SEE? She found this by building off other clues

gathered by other posters. Think of this as a brainstorming session, because it is very similar.

[slay]

92. Woah, I just woke up to find the earlier thread gone? Any official explai

nation from an admin as to why? Interesting stuff Carolab. I agree some of the earlier posts were messy, possibly in the wrong forum, but doesn't an admin usually just lock the thread in that forum, move the posts from that thread to another forum, and post a link to the moved thread?

[nolabels]

115. Yep, pretty sure your correct on that

You were a few them posts too were you not?

There were some pretty good points why this guy that died was a patsy. Even the way he died is suspicious, and right away the ruled it a suicide from a phone call they don't even know to be him I would think.

In the days proceeding this, DU broke all the new ground on this CyberNets deal piecing it together, and lo and behold the guy is now dead :wtf:

This is quite above any freeper stuff. Several people had a lot of questions that never got answered that got deleted on that thread, but I am sure we can ask a whole lot more

A couple of mine.

Why all the scrubbed links so early into the investigation and why was this important. If them links and sites are investigated could the lead to other places they shouldn't :wtf:

Why this cool character, a manipulator and fraud who must of had veins of ice the way he did things just get so nervous to kill himself over the crime of fraud (10+ years in the slam with a decent lawyer)? :wtf:

It don't make sense the whole news story about how he died is suspect to me also. In one report I read said the neighbors slept through the whole thing that night to wake up to it the next morning :wtf:

[nolabels]

171. Also do some of these names look a little interesting

Charter Schools, Character Education & the Eugenics Internationale
Behind the Conservative Curtain:
Pseudo Grassroots Organizations Front
for Corporate/Government Takeover
(snip)
See upcoming Charitable Choice Report, Hudson Institute’s Welfare Policy Center and the W-2 Conference, Wisconsin.



HUDSON BOARD OF TRUSTEES





Walter P. Sterns , Chairman of the Board

TRUSTEES EMERITI

Kenneth Duberstein
Pierre S. DuPont
Prof. Roger D. Fisher
Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
Dan Quayle
Beurt Servaas

Jay Van Andel* Co-founder with Rich DeVos (CNP) of Amway; Founder of Van Andel Research Institute

HUDSON STAFF

William E. Odom, Senior Fellow, Director, National Security Issues

Norman Podhoretz, Senior Fellow
Denis P. Doyle, Senior Fellow, GOALS 2000, Resident or Visiting Fellow at several public policy organizations including Brookings Institution, American Enterprise Institute, and the Heritage Foundation
Herbert I. London, President, Indianapolis Office

Michael J. Horowitz, Senior Fellow, Director, Project for Civil Justice Reform, Director, Project for International Religious Liberty]

Amy Sherman, Senior Fellow, Welfare Policy Center

ADJUNCT FELLOWS

Frank C. Carlucci
Paula Dobriansky, Vice President
Mary Eberstadt

Dr. Stephen F. Starr


Also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations is Hudson Institute/GOALS 2000 SCANS committee member, J. Paul Sticht, who expressed the view that the future workforce need not be educated, but “managed and trained...although a small cadre of highly educated creative people are essential to innovation and growth.”
(snip)
http://watch.pair.com/charter8.html

[ignatzmouse]

76. Helpful Research Link

This is a good site for researchers, especially if you have a url that is no longer active. Plug it in and go back in time...

http://www.archive.org/

[Garbo 2004]

89. An observation after seeing a number of these "cybernet" threads...

If I may. One of the problems with much of the research on this Cybernet matter is the apparent assumption too often taken that any company with "Cybernet" in any form in its name is part of the same company. Another problem is insufficient critical scrutiny of whatever supposed "evidence" and "connections" are found or alleged.

Now some very interesting info has been dredged up as a result of this pursuit, perhaps as side paths not directly related to the Great Cybernet Hunt ;) that do reveal how incestuous the coporate/political world is, with some of the same players and outfits popping up over and over again, government contracts, political appointments, etc. Such as Accenture, for example. But in regards to Cybernet Ventures or CyberNET Group, there have been some whoppers IMO where folks need to critically analyze the finds since connections are asserted that are not substantiated. Not doing so leads to the promulgation of erroneous info which is unhelpful and does not further the investigation or add to the credibility of a theory or its proponents.

For example, such as in this instance where a cite of legal precedent established in another law suit apparently is viewed as evidence that Cybernet Ventures has an "interest" in Diebold and that it is "helping" Diebold in a legal matter. It's no such thing. Specifically, note this section here from the court filing refered to in the first post above and linked to in the previous disappeared thread:

"1.
ISPs Are Not Liable for Hosting Infringing Material When They HaveObjectively Reasonable Beliefs That it Is Fair Use.
It is far from settled that an ISP like Swarthmore College here, who merely hosts infringing material without more, is liable for the infringement. Congress, in creating the DMCA’s “safe harbor,” did not change pre-existing law on ISP liability where the ISP was outside the harbor.

5
In Perfect 10, Inc. v. Cybernet Ventures, Inc., 213 F. Supp. 2d 1146 (C.D. Cal. 2002), liability was based upon activities other than linking. As to the linking claim, the court held that plaintiff had “not established a strong likelihood of success on its direct copyright infringement claim against Cybernet.” Id. at 1189"

This #5 is a footnote in a case AGAINST Diebold citing the Cybernet Ventures case as a legal precedent. The Cybernet Ventures case is cited to support the plaintiff's' case that Diebold is misusing the DMCA to threaten web site owners and their ISPs. Cached google link of the filing against Diebold: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:vWD_Tn-KWtUJ:cyberlaw.stanford.edu/about/cases/OPG%20MSJ.pdf+Diebold+Cybernet+Ventures&hl=en . Direct link to the PDF of the court case filed against Diebold: http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/about/cases/OPG%20MSJ.pdf .

The mention of Cybernet Ventures is a citation to a court case establishing legal precedent that the plaintiffs are using against Diebold. It is not evidence of any relationship of Cybernet Ventures, Inc. with Diebold. Much less proof of a relationship of CyberNET Group with Cybernet Ventures or Diebold.

In fact, the court case in which the Cybernet Ventures case is cited is the suit filed suit against Diebold when Diebold sent threatening letters to people with web sites and ISP's that hosted the leaked Diebold memos. This should be familiar territory here since Bev Harris' BBV site was one of the sites that received one of these cease and desist letters if my recollection serves. The Cybernet Ventures case is a different case entirely, it's only "connection" to Diebold is that the case was cited as a legal precedent related to DMCA and copyright infringement. Which the plaintiffs used to blow Diebold out of the water in regard to their threats against the web sites and ISP's. More links about the case:
http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61243,00.html
http://www.onlinepolicy.org/media/031114opgvdieboldhearing.shtml

This is interesting info relevant to Diebold and its cease and desist letters to Bev Harris and others. But there is no connection at all between Diebold and Cybernet Ventures, Inc. revealed here. The assertion that there is, based on this court filing, is simply a misunderstanding of the material being reviewed.

{Just for informational purposes: this is about the Cybernet Ventures court case regarding copyright infringement: http://www.phillipsnizer.com/library/cases/lib_case269.cfm

This case apparently has established a judicial precedent, interpretation of law, that has relevance to other cases concerning copyright infringement and DMCA; hence it may be cited in subsequent cases involving copyright infringement and the DMCA: http://www.pf.com/DMCA.asp . Citing the case in a legal action is not evidence of any business relationship between the court cases or the companies involved in those cases. It's just standard legal practice to cite whatever relevant precedents exist for or against a legal action.}

One of the keys to building a sustainable credible case is viewing such "evidence" with a skeptical eye to either confirm or disprove its validity. Not by simply assuming that such alleged connections are valid or by basing assertions of connection and relevance on "facts" that really haven't been established. (Don't simply assume "facts" that are not in evidence.)

Look up this Cybernet Ventures to see what that company is about. Apparently adult verification for online adult sites and related stuff. What is the relevance of Cybernet Ventures to Fisher's claims? (I'm talking beyond an apparently unsupported assertion on another chat board that Blass has connections with Cybernet Ventures. Is there any thing other than that?) What connection has been established? Furthermore, what linkage is there between Cybernet Ventures, Inc and CyberNET Group beyond the word "cybernet?" Or of CyberNET Group with anything related to possible election fraud? These are important questions, critical to the investigation being conducted in these many threads. A similar name in itself is not proof of connection or relationship. To credibly claim that the two companies are connected not only requires substantiated evidence to support that claim, it also requires that one not ignore sustantial evidence that they are not connected.

I'm not saying don't look at things but be skeptical and critical to test the relevance and accuracy of what you find and what you assert. As one should do with any sort of investigation if one wants the results and assertions to be regarded as credible. Test the evidence. That's the only way to separate the wheat from the chaff, the relevant lines to pursue from wild goose chases.

[geo]

99. Elloquently stated...

Hi Garbo,

Very elloquently put. I was trying to say that myself, but obviously my fingers were toungue tied and I got jumped. :)

I am glad to see I'm not alone in seeing the need for caution with posts like this. :)

Warmly,

George

[Wiley50]

102. Heads Up! Jeff Fisher New Letter/thread

Just Posted. Mentions Cybernet,Blass,Zeosync
Just so you see it

Wiley

[Wiley50]

104. Not drawing any conclusions

about fisher's letter. Just wanted to break up the fight long enough for you to see it

Peace

Wiley

[slay]

110. Here is link to the Jeff Fisher letter

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/lettertothepeople.htm

[Carl Brennan]

108. Ahem, geo are you going to address my posts #82 and 83?

:eyes:

[seemslikeadream]

116. We are all waiting for you geo, answer the man, what's the problem

n/t

[Carl Brennan]

124. You nailed a fibber too. Congrats. Great topic too!

:toast:

[geo]

149. You both are acting like common hecklers....

I answered you questions in other posts, and at this point I feel you are having me repeat myself so people get more ticked off that my name appears so often in this thread. Please read my other feedback, or PM me if you wish to continue badgering me. k? Thanks, - G

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

177. Now THERE's a pot calling a kettle black! -nt

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Verve]

105. Well, well Bozo. I was wondering when you were going to show up.

I'm glad you and Geo like Garbo's post! I like to! In fact, that is the type of post we should all be posting! Instead of bickering about what we can or cannot discuss. There are many questions that we can all look into in Garbo's last paragraph. So lets all call a truce and get to work.
By, the way Bozo, I hope you had nothing to do with the disappearance of the morning thread. I am praying you didn't because that just wouldn't be cool!

[geo]

107. no truce...

because we were never against each other to begin with. :)

Hi Verve,

What Garbo said is what I was trying to say all along, but perhaps my patience for the circular reasoning in the cybernet posts that I have read had run too thin to say it with the same level of grace that Garbo did. - G

[geo]

109. but...

I do have to insist that you take back all that talk about me being here just to lurk, posing in the shadows as Agent Mike. ;) - G

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NVMojo]

90. They are located in Las Vegas too? Do they hack Sequoias?

There has to be a connection here. Las Vegas is the fastest growing city in the US and Dem and barely kicked Bush's ass in the election with their ten year old Sequoias with no printers. They have central tabulators that could be hacked. Bastards!!!

[slay]

112. Keeping this about CyberNET - not personal attacks

If you do not want to discuss the information that has been collected about CyberNET, why are you here? I will personally ignore all the freepers and flamers who are trying to distract people from exploring this topic. There is no excuse for censorship period. :evilfrown:

[seemslikeadream]

117. AGREED "Keeping this about CyberNET - not personal attacks"

We all know what's happening here. We can take back the conversation knowing who to ignore. Sounds like a plan to me,

Thanks slay

[nolabels]

119. Thanks seemslikeadream

The start of that tread was really good, had so many of pieces, players and circumstances.
I am glad you got hold of elad also, you're such a DU maven :loveya:

[seemslikeadream]

142. What fun, some of us here have known each other 3 years or more

we don't need this crap.

Thanks nolabels :loveya: too!

[slay]

125. Summary of the CyberNET mystery so far:

This is by no means a complete summary, but will give people an idea of why many of us are interested in this thread. (And the one that mysteriously vanished earlier).

First, back on November 17th the FBI raided the offices of CyberNET in Grand Rapids Michigan.
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=2591580

Second, it was asked on blackboxvoting's website if people could explore the link between CyberNET and some things Jeff Fisher who was running for congress in Florida have been looking into.
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&omm=0&om=56&forum=DCForumID4122

Third, The CEO of CyberNET was found dead in his house today, apparently from a suicide.
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2610146

Fourth, the thread at DemocraticUnderground.com where this CyberNET story had been worked on all day VANISHED.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=76758&mesg_id=76834&page=

Fifth, there is a great collection of information that has been gathered posted as the main article in this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=76758&mesg_id=76758

Sixth, Jeff Fisher posted a new letter to his website relating to CyberNET and potential cover up.
http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/lettertothepeople.htm

I'm not stating that any of this is conclusive evidence of anything in particular at this point. Many people repeatedly tried various methods to stop research into this topic. However, as free citizens of the United States, we should be allowed to research this topic and post any information we find. If anyone would like to follow up this summary with more info, please feel free to do so.

[intelle]

128. Slay, thank you for the synopsis

I was having a little trouble following this as I did not see a lot of the thread that disappeared. I also appreciate seemslikeadream's effort to reconstruct the missing thread.

I was thinking that, even though there may be powerful, affluent people in high places who are in some way connected to all of this, they are, after all, only human.

There are bound to be big mistakes made sooner or later.

As they say "Oh what a tangled web we weave..."





:hi:

[geo]

127. these two act like pranksters....

Hi Slay,

They sound like two little kids having fun throwing rocks from the freeway. I agree that the discussion should be aimed at such, but a handeful of folks have decided to take my concern and bang me over the head repeatedly for it, and it is unfortunate.

All these pot shots aimed at me for criticising the piece would be better spent discussing the merits of the piece.

This isn't censorship, btw. It is criticising an idea in a discussion forum. The claims made in the post have sidetracked more than a few of us and these freepers are involved every time this topic comes up.

This does not mean ignore the topic; just get concerned when you see any post or topic come so frequently and with such a lack of lucidity.

To the others: I would continue to respond to your posts directly, but they have gotten far too childish and abusive. I have instead made sure to address any valid concerns I see in the more childish of these posts when responding to others here, or otherwise advancing the conversation.

Warmly,

George

[slay]

130. Notice him trying to demonize me in his topic the way the repukes do.

"Prankster" huh? You are obviously trying to get people to not look into CyberNET as well as attempting to paint those of us who do as crazy. We will not stop looking in to this. You can not make us so give it up. I urge people to make their own decisions, not to blindly believe these attack tactics that the republicans ALWAYS use when they want to discredit a real story. Why do people DESPERATELY not want us to look into this? Ohhh.. sorry my research methods don't live up to your standards. WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST US SHARING INFORMATION ABOUT THIS TOPIC?!?! You've given your "prankster" theory geo. If you do not want to look into this, move on.

"All these pot shots aimed at me for criticizing the piece would be better spent discussing the merits of the piece. " - huh, what? Did you really just say that geo? In your post titled "these two act like pranksters"? How is that discussing the merit of the piece? Unbelievable what some people will do to try and discourage free speech!!

[nolabels]

137. Just ignore him

That post #125 is good but you might want to put how some the MLM protections fit into what was also going on here. These billionaires don't play unless there is good money to made. The connections and motivations are the hard things we are missing. I had a theory in a thread above,just an idea. I am sure you could think of more, you seem quite lucid. And thanks for all that other stuff you posted

[geo]

138. overeaction

Hi,

Let's try this again. I was not "demonizing" you at all, nor am I trying to stifle free speech.

My lord. I am not the enemy, but if you prefer to believe that, fine. You stated, "You are obviously trying to get people to not look into CyberNET as well as attempting to paint those of us who do as crazy."

No. I am not. You are wrong.

Look into it, but be please keep claims accurate and intelligible. This is an old topic now, and I'm sick of seeing members get spun in circles on it. I would give anything to see a seriously well constructed case tying Cybernet or anyone else to vote fraud, even if some of the pieces were missing, but it has to be coherent or it just spins people in circles.

Also, I am not saying anyone here is crazy. I would be the last to dismiss the claim on that basis anyway. Sometimes even crazy people say very lucid things. It's just that posts this lacking in clarity, and this time consuming to get though have become suspect to me after seeing several of them over the last week. And lo and behold, I get attacked rigorously for pointing it out; go figure.

Once again my comments in the previous post are NOT aimed at you. It is aimed at the two others on this thread who seem to take delight in throwing rocks my way.

Warmly,

George

[slay]

146. I don't want to fight either. Let us all continue to look into CyberNET

as good decent people and not criticize each other. Sorry if you felt personally attacked geo. I do not like being personally attacked either. Nobody is claiming this thread is structured in such a professional way as to be published in literary journals. We should all be allowed to post info relating to this subject and allow the readers to make up their own minds though. If this thread ever evolves into a professional report we would adjust the way it is discussed. Until then, free speech and free form seems the appropriate path. We do not want people to feel intimidated when posting to this thread. :)

[geo]

160. agreed...

and thank you for the reply. :) - G

[Chimpanzee]

252. Look into it, but be please keep claims accurate and intelligible.

And you are the final arbiter for what is accurate and intelligible? You are arrogant and probably (I actually have no doubts) a freeper.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

145. How about you cut to the chase...

Can you give me ONE, One single shred of evidence connecting the guy that "suicided" himself today to Cybernet Ventures.

You guys want to think there is a big conspiracy to silence you. There is not.

I'm worried about the focus and integrity of DU.

While the focus is not my decision alone to make I can make suggestions.

The integrity of DU is my responsibility as much as everybody else's to maintain.

I am shocked that seemslikeadream has posted on this topic and belittled those that have questioned the veracity of his claims and his motives for posting.

[seemslikeadream]

148. PROVE IT SHOW ME THE LINKS

[SomthingsGotaGive]

150. Sorry seemslikeadream I should have posted to you.

You said this taunting geo when he had answered that particular question already.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-25-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #99

116. We are all waiting for you geo, answer the man, what's the problem



I've read over 500+ of your posts and you have educated me on the

BFEE

like few others.

I have come to take posts by you, Octafish, and MinstrelBoy to the bank and have forwarded your posts and links hundreds of times.

With these issues you ask me to make leaps of logic and haven't made any tangible connections between Cybernt Ventures and This dead man today.

[Carl Brennan]

158. Something or other, I want you to point me at where geo answered

my request for him to address the lies I cited in questions #82 and 83.

[geo]

151. Burden of proof is on you....

Hi, Please answer the question, and please don't demand other members to prove your claims for you. That last response of yours was extrememly lacking in integrity and is exactly what I predicted would happen within this thread.

When someone asks a question about your claim, you should be able to answer, find the answer, or at least have some kind of response that is more courteous than "PROVE IT SHOW ME THE LINKS." That reeks of someone trying to play a game with DU members.

- G

[Carl Brennan]

159. Why should anybody feel they need to respond to a liar?

You don't deserve a response and I wouldn't give you one.

[geo]

161. Obviously not...

Obviously you wouldn't respond to me like you just did. :)

Look, you seem to like to fight with me. Why don't you bring it on through the PMs instead of making unsubstantiated personal attacks in the forum? - G

[Carl Brennan]

162. Goodbye Psy-ops dude.

[seemslikeadream]

134. More Troubles For CyberNET Group

Federal agents raided CyberNET last Wednesday morning. Since then a couple of lenders have sued the company for fraud, alleging CyberNET's owners set up a shell company to bilk millions of dollars from the banks.

The chairman and founder, Barton Watson, is also named in the lawsuit, along with his wife Krista Kotlarz-Watson and CyberNET's Chief Operating Officer James Horton.

None of the three has made any comment yet on the federal investigation or the civil complaints.

Charter One, the bank behind the initial lawsuit, went into CyberNET Group headquarters Monday morning to check on equipment it owns and was leasing to CNG. According to a motion filed in Kent County Circuit Court this week, the bank found only 10 of its 66 computer servers.

In addition, the motion alleges even those 10 servers were a facade. It reads: "Charter One discovered that every 'server' was merely an empty shell with no computer hardware or chips inside and only a string of lights to allow the 'servers' to appear operational."
more
http://fox17.trb.com/news/112304-wxmi-cybernet,0,4565411.story

The CyberNET Group's last newsletter

Barton Watson appears in the company's last newsletter.

The Watsons at the charity event in California.

(Grand Rapids, November 24, 2004, 6:59 p.m.) 24 Hour News 8 has received dozens of e-mails since we broke federal investigation about The CyberNET Group last week. People have been sending tips and leads about the company.

One of those e-mails provides new insight into just how many lives and countries are being impacted by the investigation.

Someone sent us a copy of the November 2004 edition of The CyberNET Group's newsletter. It contains pictures of employees from Asia to America and pages and pages trumpeting the company's great and growing successes.

The CNG Worldview starts with the view from the office of the chairman himself, Barton Watson. A motivational message apparently penned by Watson advised employees how to pitch their product, writing "We get one chance to give a first impression...one chance to position our brand in the marketplace."

A brand so successful, according to the newsletter, it had The CyberNET Group sealing deals to provide information technology services in Australia, China, the Philippines and United States where the Americas Sales Team reported that it had toured Haworth and hoped to do business with the furniture maker

more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2612290&nav=0RceTWHE


CyberNET Founder Dead After Standoff
November 24, 2004 -- (WEB HOST INDUSTRY REVIEW) -- The Grand Rapids Press reported on Wednesday that Barton Watson, founder and chairman of Web hosting provider The CyberNET Group (cybernet-usa.com), was found dead at his home in Kent County, Michigan. Watson’s body was found in an upstairs bedroom at 9:15 am after a standoff with police.

According to the report, Watson was at home alone with a gun when he called police authorities at 12:08 am saying he wanted to hurt himself. The authorities came to the house between 1:00 am and 1:30 am, Roger Parent of the Kent County Sheriff's Department told 24 Hour News 8, in an effort to prevent Watson from following through on his threat. Upon their arrival, gunshots were reportedly heard.

After arriving, police spoke with Watson and, at 2:00 a.m., were reportedly making progress, the Grand Rapids Press said. Watson said he would not hurt himself and wanted to come out. At approximately 3:50 a.m., police reported another gunshot. From that time on, police did not have any contact with Watson.

The incident came on the heels of last week's raid on The CyberNET Group's offices in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Federal agents from five agencies, including the FBI and IRS, took part in the operation, reportedly seizing computers and other equipment.

While the reason for the raid was not revealed, sources say the investigation is related to massive wire mail and bank fraud. Watson's home has reportedly been searched as part of the investigation.

...

Watson was convicted of fraud in the early 1980s.

Daniel Yeomans, acting on behalf of Charter One and up to 46 banks who have lent money to the company, told the Grand Rapids Press that the owners of the company enjoyed lavish lifestyles that included leased luxury vehicles, original paintings and plush furniture

more
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/cyb112404.cfm

About 90 percent of the equipment at the company was leased, not owned by The CyberNET Group. Plus, not all of the assets are in one spot. "We've got some assets at a warehouse. There's different offices in different cities and different countries that we've gotta get our hands around," said Daniel Yeomans, a court-appointed receiver.

Yeomans' job is to find out how much the company is really worth. He says he is surprised at what he has found. "It's not just somebody standing here taking money. There are utilities. There's good people. There's people that have done a good job and still are," said Daniel Yeomans.

Yeomans adds this is going to be a really long process. They will try to take inventory this weekend and from there figure out what it's all worth.

more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2611663&nav=0RceTVqP

[slay]

136. The CyberNET Group's last newsletter

(Grand Rapids, November 24, 2004, 6:59 p.m.) 24 Hour News 8 has received dozens of e-mails since we broke federal investigation about The CyberNET Group last week. People have been sending tips and leads about the company.

One of those e-mails provides new insight into just how many lives and countries are being impacted by the investigation.

Someone sent us a copy of the November 2004 edition of The CyberNET Group's newsletter. It contains pictures of employees from Asia to America and pages and pages trumpeting the company's great and growing successes.

The CNG Worldview starts with the view from the office of the chairman himself, Barton Watson. A motivational message apparently penned by Watson advised employees how to pitch their product, writing "We get one chance to give a first impression...one chance to position our brand in the marketplace."

more:http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2612290

[slay]

140. CyberNET Group employees react to death of their boss

(Update, Grand Rapids, November 24, 2004, 7:24 p.m.) Employees of The CyberNET Group couldn't believe it when they heard that their boss, Barton Watson, took his own life, but even more angry to know he won't be punished in court for what he has done.

“I don't know the details of it. But I'm disappointed that he won't be around to stand trial. And I guess that’s how a lot of us feel. He is, pardon me, taking the chicken way out. And I think a lot of feel that way,” an employee who didn't want to be identified told 24 Hour News 8.

"I myself wanted to see him take an account for what he did or what he was alleged to have done. And now we might not find out the total scope of what took place," added fellow co-worker Jerry Goedert.

And that goes way beyond their jobs and whether or not they will get their final paycheck. "He’s gone now and we're left with a great big mess, and we all have to move forward," said the unidentified employee.

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2610741

[intelle]

143. These employees

may turn out to be important sources of information.

[seemslikeadream]

147. Did you see in the original post we have someone who's brother

worked for Cybernet. He's gonna keep us posted

:hi:

[seemslikeadream]

141. Cyberco Holding Inc.

Cyberco Holding Inc. does business as CyberNET group and CyberNET Engineering. The company sells high-tech services, including data storage and computer security.

Federal agents searched Watson's home and Cyberco last week as part of a fraud investigation, The Grand Rapids Press reported. The FBI is investigating whether owners Watson, his wife, Krista Kotlarz-Watson, and James Horner committed fraud in a $3 million deal involving computer servers.

Officials with the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Michigan would not comment on the case Wednesday.

An Illinois-based lender last week filed a civil lawsuit accusing Cyberco of fraud. Charter One Vendor Finance said it has a financial agreement that allowed Cyberco to acquire 66 servers, but only 25 could be found in a September visit to their offices.

A Kent County judge signed an order that allowed a court-appointed receiver to take control of the company's assets this week.

The court-appointed receiver, Dan Yeomans, said more than 40 leasing companies may be among creditors for the company.

Cyberco has an estimated 150 employees in Grand Rapids.

Yeomans said the week has been "jaw dropping" for Cyberco's estimated 150 Grand Rapids employees.

more
http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw107724_20041124.htm

[nolabels]

153. Could it also been in the money laundering business?

That many people, that much payroll a company with ten servers that probably could have been run out of a small store front with the estimated amount of work it could have generated.

Where was the money coming from for all this. It's almost sounding like the spooks had something to do with it. Why do they send five different federal agent groups for a bust on a fraud :shrug:

[nolabels]

165. Gee, wonder why Van Andel Arena map don't work

Van Andel Arena
http://www.arena-maps.com/arenas/47.htm

wonder if these guys have anything to do with it
http://www.cybernet.com/info/about.html

[vanboggie]

189. Web site was on CyberNET

[Lisabtrucking]

144. Wonder if he knew something about the election?

I wonder if he knew something about our election. Wouldn't shock me.

[nolabels]

155. It just don't make sense to me, none of it

Cybernet pieces don't fit together, but a lot of the players around it seem to. Then this guy is so much small potatoes and they drop the big hammer on him and so he commits baxterization. This all don't make sense at all :wtf:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

179. Tha Patsy -nt

[eowyn_of_rohan]

180. THE Patsy

Someone likened him to Lee Harvey Oswald on the removed thread

[slay]

156. CyberNET shady business practices as detailed by ex-employee

This was first posted in the original thread that vanished. Gives some insights into some of the extremely odd business practices that went on at CyberNET.

http://www.netmaxsucks.com/mystory.html

[Carolab]

163. Amway Phillipines

http://www.amway-ph.com/

Headquartered in Ada, Michigan, where Barton Watson's house is located (saw it in the news reports on his suicide).

Coincidence?

Also, Ayala is in the Phillipines and there is a connection between that and CyberNET Group.

???

[nolabels]

167. Well considering CyberNet just bought 60% of Ayala data center

With all the mysterious cash

CyberNet Group Buys Ayala Data Center

November 15, 2004 -- (WEB HOST INDUSTRY REVIEW) -- Busines process outsourcing Firm the CyberNet Group (cybernet-usa.com) announced this week that it had acquired a 60 percent controlling interest in the AyalaPort Makati data center in the Philippines, taking over management of the facility, and renaming it CNG Global Data Hub.

The Ayala Group retained a 30 percent minority share in the facility, of which 10 percent is owned by independent shareholder Internet Inititative Japan.
(snip)
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/cyb111504.cfm

They only call it fraud when the money launderer at the other end pulls the rug out from the other end.

[slay]

169. Yeah, the definatly seems to be a connection.

The CyberNET Group hosts Internet Web sites for companies and holds electronic data for them. The company is based in Grand Rapids with 120 employees, and about 1,000 worldwide in Chicago, Las Vegas, the United Kingdom, Philippines, Australia, Hong Kong and China.

Some of the companies clients include DeVos Place and the Van Andel Arena, whose Web sites were down Wednesday during the raid
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2578803&nav=0R...

Jay Van Andel and Rich DeVos are the two founders of Amway. This site gives links to all kinds of shady stuff Amway has done.
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/

[Carolab]

174. Also, Jay Van Andel and Rich DeVos of Amway

both live in Ada--Amway's headquarters

[vanboggie]

190. About Ada

Ada is where a lot of wealth people from the Grand Rapids area live, so that in itself may not mean anything.

[slay]

164. Attempting to piece the CyberNET mystery together...

No doubt the whole CyberNET story is confusing. Many good questions have been brought up. How many CyberNET companies are there and how are they related? What exactly was going on at CyberNET that would cause the CEO to end up killing himself? (Yes Enron execs have been known to kill themselves.) Where do CyberNET's business associations lead? What connection might CyberNET have to the 2004 election fraud? How does it all tie together?

No firm answers yet (working on it!) that I know of. Hopefully we will be able to find the answers to these questions. It is very interesting looking into this story with everyone who wishes to do so.

[ailsagirl]

166. How about "Former Enron exec dies in apparent suicide" ??

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/25/enron.suicide/

The Profumo scandal in the 60s:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/timeline/christine_keeler.shtml

In 1961 in one of the biggest political scandals of the 20th century, 18-year-old model and call girl, Christine Keeler had an affair with a government minister, John Profumo. Encouraged by her patron, Stephen Ward, she was also carrying on a relationship with an official at the Soviet Embassy in London...Ward was investigated for living off immoral earnings and committed suicide in August 1963.

What about that guy from Pennslyvania who shot himself dead in front of a bunch of reporters? He had been found guilty of some dirty deals.

My point being, it's not unheard of for people in high places to kill themselves rather than face the music.

[ailsagirl]

168. Integrity and honesty???

I just looked at their website. Along with the usual self-inflating words was this:

Integrity and honesty are at the heart of our business. We expect our people to maintain high ethical standards in everything they do, both in their work for the organization and in their personal lives.

Yeah, right.

[slay]

170. Right. I forgot about him. "Apparent" suicide? Sounds suspicious

You are right, it does happen. But there are many who also just take the relatively light sentence imposed on corporate criminals and move on.

[Carl Brennan]

184. Good point. Thanks for researching this.

There were alot of oddities regarding Baxter's "suicide", but you are right that people can kill themselves rather than face the music.

[Verve]

191. People have been known to kill themselves in high places but

what strikes me as odd about Wharton is that he has served time before for similar fraud charges. White collar criminals like him usually don't suddenly develop a conscience. What was so different this time that made him kill himself?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

181. Some Cybernet companies and connections

Here are 15 "AKA's" for the Grand Rapids Michigan CyberNET, and companies they have been closely affiliated with, that I have ID'd. Others might have more to add to this list. I hope this helps someone:

CyberNET
CyberNet Group
CyberNET Group International, INC.
Cyberco
CyberCo Holdings
Cybernet Holding, Inc
Cybernet Engineering, Inc.
Cybernet Manufacturing
Cybernet Internet Services International, Inc.
New Century Technologies Corporation
Stryon Inc.
Halcyon Software, Inc.
Knology Broadband. Inc.
ITC Holding Company
American Cable

.....and connected to DeVos and Van Andel?


CyberNET Group (The)
Company Details:
Address 25 S Division Ave, Grand Rapids, MI, 49503
Phone [phone]
Year Founded 1989
Primary Business Systems Integrators Including But Not Limited To Telecom And Computer Telephony Integration Services

Corporate Structure Private Stock Symbol
Parent Company CyberNet Group
Number of North American Locations: 2002 24
Number of Employees: 2002 500 - 999

Primary Technology Vendors
Wyse
Stryon
Citrix
Microsoft
Cisco

Primary Distributors
Ingram Micro
Avnet
TechData

Technologies Sold (up to five):
Application Integration Software and Middleware
Enterprise Applications
Network Systems Management
Networking (LAN/WAN/Internet/etc.)
Storage Management Software

Key Vertical Industries Served (up to five): Accounting/Banking/Financial Services
Defense Contractor/Military
Entertainment/Media/Publishing
Healthcare/Medical/Dental/Pharmacy
Manufacturing

Industry Most Served Entertainment/Media/Publishing
Executives Barton Watson, Chairman & CEO
James Horton, President
Steven Gauld, Sr VP - Professional Services
David Roepke, CFO
Mark Harris, Manager Network Operations
Fabian Venter, Sr VP - GLobal Marketing
Scott Sarginson, Sr VP Sales

[Emit]

185. I'm new here at DU...

In addition to some of those eowyn listed, I found these AKA's for CyberBET Holdings from this nifty site:
http://www.cis.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/sr_corp.asp
Department of Labor and Economic Growth, a State of MI site.

Cross Referencing CyberNET, (and weeding out those Cybernet companies that are not associated) and reviewing all the documents noted, they have assumed the following names over the past few years. Some dosuments and screens show Barton Watson as "Resident Agent", others show his wife, Krista Watson. Also, some documents show various other players (i.e., James Horton, Jonathon Mast) as President or VP from time to time.

AKA's or Assumed Names
CNE Liquidating Corporation
Cybernet AsiaPacific Incorporated
National Internet Registry


For what it's worth!

[nolabels]

186. Thanks, this is getting interesting

Kind of sounds like a pattern similar to one Enron used on a quite smaller scale. The ramifications hopefully pan out too, catching a few more connections in here some where, it's starting to take a little international flavor :kick:

[Emit]

188. I know nothing about incorporating businesses...

So those of you who might know more, why do businesses "assume" new names. CyberNET Holdings seems to have done that a lot with these various AKA's. Those documents from that DLEG site in MI has records of CyberNET assuming various company names and then reverting back to CyberNET. Is that usual? Just curious...since we're still on the subject?

[nolabels]

207. Pondering some of that legal stuff

what about this, what is going here? The finance companies and or banks taking several actions with the state court which Cybernet established it Corporate ID, or something else?

IN RE CYBERNET INTERNET SERIVCES INTERNATIONAL
http://www.legalcasedocs.com/120/252/149.html#item1

[ignatzmouse]

172. Accenture Employee Message Board

http://www.vault.com/community/mb/mb_main.jsp?product_id=317&ch_id=252&forumtype=0

[ignatzmouse]

173. Diebold & SAIC & a host of Defense Intel Guys

Don't know if this has been posted...

"Diebold has been retained by the state of Maryland to provide voting software for the 2004 election, but because of ongoing negative publicity, Diebold hired Scientific Applications International Corporation (SAIC) of San Diego, to assess the security of the companys voting software...

Many SAIC officers are current or former government and military
officials. Retired Army Gen. Wayne Downing, who until last summer
served as chief counter-terrorism expert on the National Security
Council, is a member of SAICs board. Also on the board is former
CIA Director Bobby Ray Inman, who served as director of the National
Security Agency, deputy director of the CIA and vice director of
the Defense Intelligence Agency. During the first Bush administration
and while on the board of SAIC, Immen was a member of the National
Foreign Intelligence Board, an advisory group that reports to the
president and to the director of Central Intelligence.

Retired Adm. William Owens, a former vice chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff who sits on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfelds
Defense Policy Board, served as SAICs president and CEO and until
recently was its vice chairman. He now is chairman of the board of
VoteHere, which seeks to provide cryptography and computer software
security for the electronic election industry. Robert Gates, ex-CIA
director, former SAIC board member and a veteran of the Iran-Contra
scandal, also is on the board of VoteHere."

Full article from "In These Times" here:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=490_0_1_0_C

[Verve]

192. Must read for everyone! Great article ignatzmouse!

How is it that the public does not know how intertwined Bush is with the election process? We must get this info. out to the mainstream.
Also, regardless of what happens with Kerry, we are all going to have to fight tooth and nail to get these companies removed from our elections in the next 2 to 4 years! No exceptions!

[slay]

193. HUGE conflict of interest

I can't believe these people who have such obvious Republican ties would be in charge of assessing the security of the software we use to vote. These people who control our government today obviously think they can get away with anything. :(

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slay]

195. You might want to think about posting this in its own thread ignatzmouse

Some people have been doing their best to get people to ignore this thread so your post may not be seen. These people have even gone so far as to create their own mocking, mean-spirited thread in an attempt to get people to steer away from this one. This attempt at censorship and intimidation is sad and distasteful, but might be effective. :(

[Bozos for Bush]

208. My letter to Skinner and Elad, designed to put a stop to this

Enough is enough.

Good evening Elad,

I saw your name in a post that stated you said a moderator deleted a thread because he/she overreacted. The moderator did not overreact.

If you do nothing else with all this evidence I will provide, at least check out the 3rd link below. At the very end of this PM, I have written up a good summary of exactly what is going on as well.

I am writing to you because DU is under attack by a clever group of "freepers" perhaps, who continue to perpetuate a never-ending wild goosechase, based on the faulty claim that CyberNET Group (Grand Rapids, MI) is the same company as lots of other Cybernet-named companies. This claim, and many others, were introduced at BBV.org, and has spread to both here and CommonCauseCommonSense, with all sorts of false and misleading connections, links, statements as fact, etc. This entire effort is both polluting future threaded information from DU, as well as sending a lot of people on searches into the wild blue yonder - and I have no doubt it is a coordinated effort.

I urge you to shut all this crap down, and take action against the people at DU who continue to keep this going even though they know it has been debunked. Here are the links for you to verify what I am saying:

1. Auditors initial thread at BBV which started all this: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=56&forum=DCForumID4122&viewmode=all

2. DU's AnIndependentTexan initiates same thing at CommonCause, and "Activisms" (has to be same person as Auditors) takes over and starts the same wild goosechase: http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/lofiversion/index.php/t5461-0.html

3. SpaceCowboys at BBV thoroughly debunks everything Auditors is doing at BBV (Post 64): http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=56&forum=DCForumID4122&viewmode=all#63

4. A screen shot showing just how out of control all of this is at BBV.org - notice many additional threads with "Auditors" postings:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID4122&archive=

5. Proof again that this is all a lie (Post 67 - all you have to do is look at his links to supposed evidence): http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=56&forum=DCForumID4122&viewmode=all#65

6. DU under attack - threads all over the place spinning this faulty story. Please notice that the huge majority of people who are posting in these threads are people who joined between November 8th and November 13th, who do not seem to post any place except these threads, who compliment each other even though they are all new members, and none of them do any real research - none of them answer questions when asked for real evidence of links, they just evade and keep this whole thing going and going and going:

a) Notice that the author of this post starts off with legit information, but scroll down a ways and see where it suddenly talks about Cybernet Ventures instead of CyberNET Group, as if they are the same, and begins to mislead. This post is "their" latest spin/con job: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x76758

b) Someone tried to defuse this goosechase, few cared: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x69314

c) A newbie brings the BBV mess to DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x61397

d) AnIndependentTexan, who I have already shown helped Auditors/Activisms get this goosechase going at CommonCauseCommonSense, gets it going at DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x68756

e) My attempt to clear up the confusion, which gets attacked by several new members: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x69634

f) A blatantly false post that starts a new thread, and perpetuates things: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x69719

g) Another attempt to stop this goosechase, which gets attacked immediately: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x69811

h) Yet another attempt to help spin this stuff: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x77227

i) A blatantly false first post by another person which starts a big thread yet again: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x66214

j) A newbie starting a new thread, wondering why a previous thread was shut down: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x76810

k) My latest attempt to stop this whole charade by using a parody instead of anger - and it seems to be working a little: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x78123

Elad, here is a better summary of exactly what is going on:

CyberNET Group is the same company as Cyberco Holdings, and is the parent company of Stryon, Inc., which includes Halcyon Software.

The people who have perpetuated this wild goosechase keep saying that CyberNET Group is also Cybernet Ventures, Cybernet Software, Cybernet Systems, and Cybernet Services, as well as other Cybernet-named companies. They are not. Not a single shred of evidence has been posted anywhere - I have, like some others, spent a lot of time researching all this. Yet these people continue to talk it up.

Last week, CyberNET Group (Grand Rapids, MI) was raided by the FBI for financial fraud. The CEO was a crook, no doubt. Eventually he killed himself.

All sorts of possible freepers claim and keep claiming that the CEO who killed himself did it for more mysterious reasons, and that (now it becomes bogus info) all the Cybernet companies are the same, this proves lots of dirty connections to Bush. Now I am not saying that Bush doesn't have dirty connections - of course he is evil, etc., but all these threads are putting out a lot of bad info and bad research, which makes us look dumb here at DU and elsewhere - IMO on purpose.

In my opinion, which I cannot prove, this entire Jeff Fisher-Greg Palast mystery could be a huge red herring. All of these Cybernet-spinning people at DU and elsewhere keep tying it all back to Fisher and Palast, the Baypoint school in Florida, Jeb Bush, porn sites, etc. There may be some truths in all of this stuff - but it has become so immersed among falsehoods that I'm not sure anyone can completely sort it out.

These links will show you that my research into BFEE and all sorts of scams, etc., is legit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1154535#

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2500661

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2503732

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1093320

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1146495

I thank you for reading all of this, and I hope you, Skinner, and the gang take decisive action here at DU to protect the integrity of your site...nothing is more important IMO than the integrity of our research and views expressed here.

John

[Carolab]

200. More about Voting, Defense, SAICs and EVEN CARLUCCI

Conflicts of interest exist between the largest suppliers of electronic voting machines in the United States and key leaders of the Republican Party. While the technical problems with the voting machines themselves have received a certain amount of coverage in the mainstream media, the political conflicts of interest, though well documented, have received almost none. Election analysts on both sides of the fence are charging that while particular industries have traditionally formed alliances with one or another of the parties, political affiliations within the voting machine industry are inappropriate -- and have dangerous implications for our democratic process.

Election Systems & Software (ES&S), Diebold, and Sequoia are the companies primarily involved in implementing the new, often faulty, technology at voting stations throughout the country. All three have strong ties to the Bush Administration and other Republican leaders, along with major defense contractors in the United States. ES&S and Diebold, owned by brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich, will be counting about 80 percent of the votes cast in 2004. Each one of the three companies has a past plagued by financial scandal and political controversy:


In 1999 the Justice Department filed federal charges against Sequoia alleging that employees paid out more than $8 million in bribes. Shortly thereafter, election officials for Pinellas County, Florida, cancelled a fifteen-million-dollar contract with Sequoia after it was discovered that Phil Foster, a Sequoia executive, faced indictment for money laundering and bribery.

Michael McCarthy, owner of ES&S (formerly known as American Information Systems), served as Senator Chuck Hagel's campaign manager in both the 1996 and 2002 elections. Senator Hagel owns close to $5 million in stock in the ES&S parent company. In 1996 and 2002, eighty percent of Senator Hagel's votes were counted by ES&S.

Diebold, the most well known of these three major groups, is under scrutiny for a memo that Diebold's CEO, Walden O'Dell, sent out promising Ohio's votes to Bush in the 2004 election. Beyond this faux pas, intra-office memos were circulated on the Internet stating that Diebold employees were aware of bugs within their systems and that the network is poorly guarded against hackers.

Diebold has now taken steps to use an outside organization, Scientific Applications International Corporation (SAIC) of San Diego, to take responsibility for security issues within their software. But this presents yet another conflict of interest. A majority of officials on the board are former members of either the Pentagon or the CIA, many of whom are closely allied with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Members of the board of directors include Army Gen. Wayne Downing, former chief counter-terrorism expert on the National Security Council, Former CIA Director Bobby Ray Inman, Retired Adm. William Owens, who served as former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and now sits on Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Policy Board, and Robert Gates, former director of the CIA and veteran of the Iran Contra scandal.

Additionally, SAIC has had a plethora of charges brought against them including indictments by the Justice Department for the mismanagement of a Superfund toxic cleanup and misappropriation of funds in the purchase of F-15 fighter jets.

Some of the most generous contributors to Republican campaigns are also some of the largest investors in ES&S, Sequoia, and Diebold. Most notable of these are government defense contractors Northrup-Grumman, Lockheed-Martin, Electronic Data Systems (EDS) and Accenture, a member of the U.S. Coalition of Service Industries and a major proponent of privatization and Free Trade of services provided by the WTO and GATT. None of these contractors are politically neutral, and all have high stakes in the construction of electronic voting systems. Accenture was involved in financial scandals, and charged with incompetence in both Canada and the U.S. throughout the 1990s and 2000s.

Under the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) passed in October of 2002, states have been required to submit plans to make the switch from punch cards to a primarily electronic system in time for the 2004 elections. It should be noted that the voting machine companies continue to hold title to the software -- even after implementation. Populex, the company contracted to provide voting systems in Illinois has former Defense Secretary, Frank Carlucci, on its advisory board.

http://www.albionmonitor.com/0409a/pc2004.html

[nolabels]

203. There are the connecting points at the Hudson Institute

For Mr. Frank CARLUCCI in site along with a whole lot of other folks including where the Quixtar (Amway) folks might meet up in some fashion (nothing like mixing a little educational talk with some business talk :think: )

(about half-way down)
http://watch.pair.com/charter8.html

[GingerSnaps]

175. .

:kick:

[Mr.Green93]

178. The circle is closing

You know who this points back to?

[Jose Diablo]

183. Wow, all I did was

put on ignore 3 people and this thread went from 182 posts to about half of that.

The ones that went on ignore didn't really add anything to the topic. The remaining posts seem to bring clarity to the topic.

It is interesting about Amways ties to repubs and the tax breaks Amway recieved, in addition to immunity from pyramid marketing scheme prosecution.

There would be a motive to confuse investigations in shady dealings into activities of a certain corp based in GR, Mi.

Don't ya dislike people dressed in suits with vacant smiles plastered on their faces. I have often wondered how Amway got away with what they do, in offering a 'business' plan which has little chance of succeding except as a buyer of a product that is far overpriced due to 'upchain' profiting at the very top, well within corporate headquarters.

Good business? But for whom?

[Carl Brennan]

187. Charities linked to terrorism, entry point for money laundering

Charities are used for laundering money. Think of how easy it is to contribute without recording the transaction. We know from the past that charities have been used to finance terrorism.



We have the link to the charities established in the original post:


The Creation Research Society
The Van Andel Creation Research Center is strategically located in or near a very large variety of biological and geological areas of great importance to the creationist position. The Grand Canyon, just two hours to the north, is perhaps the most geologically interesting area in the U.S. A wide variety of biological habitats is relatively easy to access from the Research Center. Both high altitude montane communities and Sonoran Desert Saguaro cactus communities are within a two-hour drive

http://www.creationresearch.org/vacrc.html

Mrs. Van Andel, of Ada, was known in the Grand Rapids area as a longtime volunteer for many charities and civic organizations. Forbes magazine listed her husband in 2002 as the 131st richest person in the United States with assets of about $1.5 billion.




First we must understand that the Far Right, Neo-Nazis and Islamic Fundies are all linked. Below is an article on the post 9/11 link, but I think they have been linked for much longer:

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=6496


Feminist Daily News Wire April 29, 2002Top of Form 1 Bottom of Form 1
Far Right, Neo-Nazis, Islamic Fundamentalists Forge Alliance After September 11, the connections between the far right and Islamic fundamentalists are making themselves more apparent. According to the Washington Post, after the 9-11 terrorist attacks, writings by American William Pierce, author of The Turner Diaries, the book after which Timothy McVeigh modeled the Oklahoma City bombing, was found on the Hezbollah website. Pierce also announced on Radio Iran, “We have a common cause: getting the U.S. government off the back of the rest of the world and getting the Jews off the back of the U.S. government….There is ground for joint action.” Similarly, Ahmed Huber, director of the Swiss company Nada Management and a frequent speaker to neo-Nazi organizations in Europe and the United States, notes, “The alliance has come.” The U.S. Treasury Department has identified Nada Management as a “financial advisor” to al Qaeda. Huber has denied the allegation but admits to knowing al Qaeda operatives. According to the Washington Post, Huber has also indicated that he intends to “build a bridge between radical Muslims and what he calls the New Right in Europe and the United States.” While the alliance of these seemingly disparate groups appears “unnatural” to U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) authorities, Alfred Schobert of the Information Service Against Right-Wing Extremism in Germany explains that “Some of them , particularly the grass roots, are traditional racists and they want to have nothing to do with Muslims…but some of the leaders see potential in this.”

Now what we have is the role of charities in funding terrorism:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=24095&forum=DCForumID61
Legal Counterattack (Saudis vs 9-11 lawsuit)
April 16 - After months of working below the radar, a huge U.S. legal team hired by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has sprung into action and begun a major counteroffensive against a landmark lawsuit seeking $1 trillion in damages on behalf of the victims of the September 11 terror attacks.
THE OPENING DEFENSE SALVO in what promises to be a bruising legal battle was fired last week when a trio of lawyers from Baker & Botts, a prestigious Dallas-based law firm, filed a motion on behalf of Prince Sultan bin Abdul Aziz, the Saudi defense minister. The motion attacked the 9-11 lawsuit as a “broadside indictment of Saudi government, religion and culture.” It also argued that, as the third-ranking official of a foreign government, their client is immune from any U.S. legal action and that he should therefore be dismissed from the case altogether.
But in laying out their arguments, Sultan’s U.S. lawyers also presented highly detailed new evidence of the Saudi government’s role in funneling millions of dollars to a web of Islamic charities that are widely suspected by U.S. officials of covertly financing the operations of Al Qaeda and other international terrorist groups.
more....
<http://www.msnbc.com/news/901320.asp?cp1=1>



NOW!!

Wahabbism in the US! Connected to White House.
was reading a story linked to an LBN thread when a name set off bells in my head. I checked a story I saved on my hard drive and sure enough, there is a connection TO BUSH AND THE WHITE HOUSE.
Wahhabis in the Old Dominion
What the federal raids in Northern Virginia uncovered.
Weekly Standard
by Stephen Schwartz
04/08/2002, Volume 007, Issue 29
<snip>
......Reaction to the raids suggests the Feds inflicted serious injury on the Wahhabi lobby, the Saudi-backed extremist network that largely controls Islam in America. Officials of the targeted groups as well as their non-Muslim apologists--notably GOP operative Grover Norquist, the chief enabler of Islamic extremists seeking access to the White House--have condemned the raids as civil rights violations. ..........

The keystone of the Saudi-sponsored Northern Virginia network is the Saar Foundation, created by Suleiman Abdul Al-Aziz al-Rajhi, a scion of one of the richest Saudi families. The Saar Foundation is connected to Al-Taqwa, a shell company formerly based in Switzerland, where its leading figures included a notorious neo-Nazi and Islamist, Ahmed Huber. Subsequently moved to the United States, Al-Taqwa was shut down after September 11 and its assets frozen by U.S. presidential order. But operations continued, as the Wahhabi lobby shifted to its backup institutions here.
Saar has also been linked to Khalid bin Mahfouz, former lead financial adviser to the Saudi royal family and ex-head of the National Commercial Bank of Saudi Arabia. Mahfouz has been named by French intelligence as a backer of Osama bin Laden; Mahfouz endowed the Muwafaq Foundation, which U.S. authorities confirm was an arm of bin Laden's terror organization. Muwafaq's former chief, Yassin al-Qadi, oversaw the financial penetration of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania by Wahhabi terrorists in the late 1990s.
more: <http://terrorism.reallybites.com/article16.htm>

Norquist link to SAAR? http://law.about.com/library/911/blsaar.htm
Co-conspirators, aiders and abettors of the Saar Network include defendants: Abu Sulayman, Ahmed Totonji, Hisham al-Talib, Iqbal Yunus, Jamal Barzinji, M. Omar Ashraf, Mohammed Jaghlit, Muhammad Ashraf, Taha Jaber al-Alwani, Tarik Hamdi, Yaqub Mirza, Sherif Sedky, African Muslim Agency, Aradi, Inc., Grove Corporate, Inc., Heritage Education Trust, International Institute of Islamic Thought, Mar-Jac Investments, Inc., Mar-Jac Poultry, Inc., Mena Corporation, Reston Investments, Inc., SAAR International, Safa Trust, Sterling Charitable Gift Fund, Sterling Management Group, Inc., and York Foundation, all located doing business or registered to do business in the United States.

Head of SAAR donated $1000 to Bush in 2000. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A28721-2002Mar27?language=printer
The request created a thorny question for the Bush administration -- whether the president should take campaign cash from a leader of a Northern Virginia group that his own Treasury Department is raiding as part of a terrorist financing investigation.

[Carolab]

197. Websites for Quixtar (Amway) , CyberNET and 9-11 by same developer

At this point I will refer back to this post upthread:

"The CyberNET Group hosts Internet Web sites for companies and holds electronic data for them. The company is based in Grand Rapids with 120 employees, and about 1,000 worldwide in Chicago, Las Vegas, the United Kingdom, Philippines, Australia, Hong Kong and China.

Some of the companies clients include DeVos Place and the Van Andel Arena, whose Web sites were down Wednesday during the raid .
(pause article)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to stop right there and point out a couple of things you may or may not know about the two names DeVos and VanAndel. These names are the founders of the Amway corporation and have considerable influence on the city of Grand Rapids. They are in the top 300 richest people on the planet, I think.

Whats even more important here is Betsy DeVos is the chair of the Michigan GOP, and she is actually stepping down - very likely to run against Dem Governor Jennifer Granholm in 2006 or Dem Senator Debbie Stabenow. If I may say so, she is a nasty ruthless bitch sure to make any GOP member proud.

Moreover, Mama Betty Van Andel was a philanthropist, but very active in GOP politics AND promoting a Christian Right Agenda. She died early this year. They actually funded the Van Andel Creation Research Center and several cultural, research, and evangelical Christian Organizations. They own most of downtown Grand Rapids, especially most of the cultural, museums, and convention centers. They are very likely CyberNets biggest customers and could easily get this sleazeball company involved in a scandal like this. I have no doubt. (Note, they had the money to purchase another failing company a few days ago.)"

************

So one thing I wanted to bring up is this: There is a website designer named David A. Oakley who has both CyberNET's website AND Quixtar's website in his portfolio. Also there is a "CyberVend" website which is "no longer available for viewing". No more information about Mr. David A. Oakley is to be found in googling his name, and there is no address provided, either. However, I see that he has ALSO done a "ground zero panorama" website AND a "Grand Rapids, Michigan" website. In ADDITION, there is a website for "Orlando Website Design"--recall that Rich DeVos of Amway/Quixtar owns the Orlando "Magic" team. I might also note the name of this website developer's address is "hoaks"--like "hoax"?

Any takers?

http://www.hoaks.net/portfolio.htm

[slay]

199. Amway and far Christian right = brainwashing

Very odd how CyberNET connects to some terrible, terrible things that are done for money (Amway) and power (right wing Christian politics). I don't care how many flamers are out there, some of us are interested in this. Another interesting post Carolab. :evilgrin:

[nolabels]

206. I traced a couple of links you had above and found this

I was wondering what that other part was about. They service internet porn industry but hang out with the wingers? Not making judgments about anything, but they would seem diametrically opposed

Perfect 10, Inc. v. Cybernet Ventures, Inc., et al.
2002 U.S. Dist. Lexis 7333, CV 01-2595 LGB (C.D. Ca., April 22, 2002)

Court issues preliminary injunction against Cybernet Ventures, which operates an Age Verification Service, based on the use by web sites operated by third parties of various images in which plaintiff held the copyright, or featuring a model who had assigned her right of publicity to plaintiff.

Cybernet Ventures operates the Age Verification Service "Adult Check." Participating web sites put a script on their site which direct first time users to Cybernet, who sells them access to the Adult Check family of sites. The user is thereafter free to visit Adult Check sites for a set period of time. The fees generated by this user are paid to Cybernet, who splits them with the web site which sent the user to Cybernet. To assist the user in finding Adult Check sites to his liking, Cybernet provides both a series of links as well as a search engine. It also advertises its network.

Cybernet takes an active interest in the content of Adult Check sites, employing a staff of 12 to review the site both before it is admitted to the Adult Check family, and periodically thereafter. The content of the site is reviewed by Cybernet to prevent the inclusion of prohibited images. Cybernet also provides comment on the site's layout. The images on each site, however, are not provided by Cybernet. Instead, each site is run by a third party, who is responsible for locating the images, arranging to have the site hosted, and advertising the site.
(snip)
http://www.phillipsnizer.com/library/cases/lib_case269.cfm

[nolabels]

201. Yea them names cross some links

Get a load of this little excerpt

Before we go any further, I want to assure you that Quixtar is not Amway. You have my guarantee that you will not be selling soap door-to-door with Quixtar. Quixtar is a brand new concept based completely on the new electronic technology of the Internet; however, it does have the financial backing of the DeVos and Van Andel families, who were founding fathers of the Amway company.

Quixtar, a part of the Alticor group of companies, was founded by the families of Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel, who are among North America's leading entrepreneurs with numerous business ventures in direct selling, sports entertainment, real estate, lodging and hospitality, and other business sectors. Alticor is led by Steve Van Andel, Chairman, and Doug DeVos, President.
(snip)
http://www.ddcenterprises.net/Straight%20Talk.html

For the skinny on some possible crooks
http://www.amquix.info/amway.html

Yet I don't think that crap up there is much more than window dressing. Seems to me or front for some money laundering. Perfect kind of set up. Heck for all we know so far the CEO of CyberNets or somebody else could working with one end or another could of been blackmailing someone. It just seems that stuff is ripe with some kind of dirt.

The plausible motives submitted for peoples deaths or committing suicide seem weak. Except for Fishers which seems a bit in left field but might have some elements of truth or validity some where. Sure looks like a whole lot of dirt being covered up somewhere.

[Carolab]

257. from www.whois.net

Dave Oakley (KKFCX) [e-mail]
1779 Spaulding Ave.
Grand Rapids, MI 49546
United States
Phone: [phone]

[Cowboy Joe2k]

198. wow, he shot himself yesterday and you did all this reserch....

the feds wont release any details yet you still are able to find all those links, and write endlessly about all of it, and there is more that somehow got deleted?????

You must have a lot of free time there Buddy. perhaps you should come down and take a nap. might want to eat a Burger too.

Some how I think there are more important issues. If Cybernet was a company that manufactured voting machines, then this topic might be important enough to be posted here, but I think that this seems like a huge waste of valuable time just like the Scott Peterson Trial, and that Deer Hunter that shot a few Racists over a tree stand.

[Carolab]

202. I'm sorry you have such difficulty

reading between the lines. Kindly refrain from engaging in discussion on this thread if you have nothing constructive to offer.

[merh]

204. Ohhh, another poster warning that discussion of cybernet is

a waste of time. Makes you wonder why so many new posters object to investigating cybernet. :shrug:

[NVMojo]

213. I still don't understand why someone keeps sticking around to pound

against this topic if they aren't a freeper. Leave the topic and move on! Leave the rest of us to work it over if we want to. Jeez!

[Bozos for Bush]

215. Feel free to post FACTUAL information!

If you want to investigate CyberNET Group, fine!

If you want to investigate Cybernet Ventures instead, fine!

If you mix the two, then you are posting fraudulent information.

It's that simple.

[merh]

222. The many protests make be think you guys are on to something!

:silly:

[Carl Brennan]

264. Yep, maybe they don't want us to expose another Repug child porn/abuse

ring.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

230. Good response.

There seem to be enemies of free speech here. Trying to disrupt and pollute every thread on the subject to slow down our progress in attempting to PROVE the very things they are demanding proof of.

They try to turn the tables to make it appear as if WE are the enemy--typical GOP tactic, as witnessed in the 2000 election when we called the Florida heist a COUP D'ETAT, and within a day James Baker began calling the Dem. position a coup d'etat.


:kick:

[Liberty Belle]

205. CyberNet acquisitions--Nov 9

Asia Intelligence Wire reported on Nov. 9th that Michigan-based informatoin tehcnology firm, the CyberNET Group, has taken over operations of the former AyalaPort Makati Inc after buying a 60% stake from Ayala Corp, units Azalea Technology Investments Inc, and ALINET.

After CyberNET acquired a controlling stake, AyalaPort was renamed CNG Phillippines Global Data Hub, Inc. Ayala Group retains a 30% stake, with 10% owned by "other partners." Reynaldo P. Huergas is the CEO of CNG Global.

The company will provide business process outsourcing and IT oursourcing, specifically, managed services, assessment, professional and software services. CNG plans to make the Phillippines the base of its Asian operations.

I don't know if this is relevant, but someone should check out these companies and Mr. Huergas.

[nolabels]

209. Dang it, Dang it, Dang it !!!!!!!!!!!

Why didn't someone point all all this to me before. Every connection is here if you connect the dots. This is the DEAL, everything points here. If you have been poking around at this YOU must of known this. Anyway go to the link at the bottom to check this whole page out. It's dynamite if you ask me.

CYBERNET INTERNET SERVICES INTERNATIONAL INC (0001070658)
(snip)
CyberNET, Stryon, Halcyon, and Chinese connection

For those who don't know...when CyberNET was raided, so too was Stryon, Inc., which is located at the same address, and might have been the real reason for the raid.

"Computer technology company Stryon Inc. was formed recently when CyberNET Group merged its Stryon division with Halcyon Software, a California-based company.

Grand Rapids-based Stryon has 50 local employees..."

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?d...eyword=&teaser=

We need a computer genius to explain the signifigance of this next link, which shows a security flaw in Stryon software that allows a remote user to access they system:

http://www.securitytracker.com/alerts/2002/Dec/1005809.html

And then there are these new surprises:

1. Styron/Halcyon is a portfolio company of China Vest -
http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?_adv_p...&icp=1&.intl=us

2. And this is even bigger - Don Hsi founded Halcyon, and has extensive links with China:
http://www.cina.org/2004-activities/cina-m...hly-seminar.htm
(snip)
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/lofiversion/index.php/t5461-50.html

[Bozos for Bush]

211. This thread was started when I began to research all this crap

Nice try!

Like many other folks who have been duped by this Cybernet garbage, I fell for it at first - and started researching things.

I have since realized that, although CyberNET Group had a couple of interesting connections, it had nothing to do with Cybernet Systems, Cybernet Ventures, Cybernet Software, or Cybernet Services, and it had nothing to do with all the other Cyber-named companies that have been thrown out all over.

[seemslikeadream]

221. Thanks again nolabels

Ignore feature is a wonderful thing, wouldn't you agree?

:hi:

Did you see this from eowyn_of_rohan?

eowyn_of_rohan (295 posts) Fri Nov-26-04 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #22

24. Here's an example of the importance of our CyberNET research


I posted this on a Halliburton thread this morning, but it belongs here too.

FBI should expand their probe to ALL companies that the Bush administration has awarded business to in in Iraq and the Balkans.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Blackwater USA, a private security firm currently working in Iraq, founded by Erik D. Prince, brother of Betsy DeVos, current chair of the Michigan GOP, and longtime GOP operative.

Her husband is Richard DeVos, co-founder of the Amway Corp. (interesting background and connections in itself) with Jay Van Andel (Founder of Van Andel Research Institute--more interesting stuff...)

Businesses owned by DeVos and Van Andel--DeVos Place and Van Andel Arena-- were clients of CyberNET Group of Grand Rapids Mich, which was raided last week by the FBI.

Regarding Richard DeVos:
33º Freemason- CNP Executive Committee (1984-85); CNP Senior Executive Committee (1986-88, 1990-93). Founder
of Amway Corporation; Templeton Foundation - judge for the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion; Bd. of Directors of (33º Mason)
Robert Schuller Ministries, Newcomen Society, Trustee of (33º Mason) Gerald R. Ford Foundation, Round Table. Served on Chairman's
Council of the Conservative Caucus. In an undated Amway brochure titled 3 Decades of Caring: AMWAY, Amway announced that it had
launched "a new, five year corporate sponsorship: the Aspen Global Change Institute. Amway's partners in this exciting new project
include the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the United Nations Environment Programme,(etc)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

224. Good morning, Seamslikeadream!

If you haven't already, take a look at the posts in the long discussion going on towards the bottom of the latest B*zozforB*ush thread...let me know what you think of them... very interesting I think.

[seemslikeadream]

226. And it is a GOOD MORNING isn't it eowyn_of_rohan?

I hope you don't mind that I posted your information over here. Things are a bit confusing and I didn't wanted nolabels to miss it.


:hi:

I've made a copy of all of this, just in case!

[eowyn_of_rohan]

228. No, don't mind!

Honored! :)

[Pepper32]

229. Interesting! And Very "Coherent." ;) Thanks.

[nolabels]

210. And keep this thread kicked at the top

If I had a pin, I would stick it in it. :kick:

[nolabels]

212. And a kick again

This so great, terrible the guy got killed, but we know the truth now :kick:

[nolabels]

216. I would not be so naive to think

Today 441, tomorrow or the next day over a thousand

http://www.google.com/search?q=Cybernet+%2B+vote+%2B+fraud&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&start=10&sa=N

:kick:

[Bozos for Bush]

217. Did you even bother to click on the links from your google search?!?!

Just because google returns a link doesn't mean there is a link!

You have to actually go to the link and study it!

READ THE DAMN LINK! THERE IS NO CONNECTION!

FIRST LINK

Operation blizzard
We're now starting to see a few mainstream articles per day on post-election issues. This one starts off okay, but doesn't mention electronic vote tabulation concerns. I started a diary on the Daily Kos which I'm going to use to construct a media contact list, a government and public interest group contact list, and sample emails demanding scrutiny of voting fraud in election 2004.

I've decided to post the entire memo from Chas at BBV for today:



CyberChas
Member since Nov-7-04
48 posts Nov-18-04, 10:52 AM (PST)

"Talking Points for Thurday, November 18, 2004"

Today is Thursday, November 18, 2004 and the message to get out there is that this battle is just beginning.
While most of the mainstream media have already declared the election of 2004 over and moved on to other issues, there are tens of thousands of American activists who are not satisfied and are digging deeper. Representatives of BlackBoxVoting.ORG are in Florida auditing the election results and uncovering signs of VOTE FRAUD and/or incompetence and/or equipment malfunctions at each site they visit. The Ohio Green Party and Ohio Libertarian Party have already raised sufficient funds to call for a complete recount of the results in Ohio, where there have been thousands of different allegations of voter suppression and/or technical malfunctions and/or VOTE FRAUD. Presidential Candidate Ralph Nader has been granted a partial recount in New Hampshire where unusual anomalies indicate possible VOTE FRAUD, and may request a FULL recount of New Hampshire after preliminary review of the evidence. There are also investigations and audits under way in New Mexico, Iowa, Indiana, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and elsewhere. In short, the myth that the 2004 election went off "without a hitch" is quickly being exploded. Mainstream media has been slow to respond to most of these stories, but as mass dissatisfaction with the way the recent election was handled begins to coalesce, we can expect the pressure on them to increase.


ACTION ITEM: Activists who want to get involved in HANDS ON activities should join a free networking group (such as meetup.org) and get together in person in their local area. Promote the message, and get information out there. Print small, one-page leaflets and spread them around. Print posters and get them up. Cite: BlackBoxVoting.ORG and HelpAmericaRecount.ORG and any others.


REFERENCES:

Blogging:
1. www.democraticunderground.com


Info:
1. www.gregpalast.com
2. www.blackboxvoting.org
3. www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/gaoinvestvote2004ltr11804.pdf
5. Another great article by a PhD: http://onlinejournal.com/evoting/111704DeHart/111704dehart.html


Action & Fundraising:
1. www.thealliancefordemocracy.org
2. www.votecobb.org
3. www.helpamericarecount.org


Keep the faith,

Charlie Levenson
Portland, Oregon
[e-mail]

If we allow this election to stand without a fight, and the media convinces the masses that it was "fair and trouble-free" then we will never have another honest election in our lifetimes in this country.



bmoney07, Nov-18-04, 11:12 AM, (1)
Another thing "they" might do..., CyberChas, Nov-18-04, 12:05 PM, (2)
RE: Another thing "they" might do..., bmoney07, Nov-18-04, 12:17 PM, (3)

bmoney07
Member since Nov-9-04
47 posts Nov-18-04, 11:12 AM (PST)

1. "RE: Talking Points for Thurday, November 18, 2004"
In response to message #0

First of all good to har from you, I was beginning to think that you may have been silenced.
What is your take on the FBI raiding the Cybernet Headquarters in Grand Rapids MI this morning. I know you like to wait for the facts but this seems pretty big.

Is it related to the 6 congressional leaders asking the GAO to investigate/Jeff Fisher?

The reason I ask becasue the forums on Democraticunderground are going crazy right now and no one seems to be able to make heads or tales of this. In other words they are porcessing so much info that it is really going in all directions and this doesn't even include the other headlines making the blogesphere today. People are getting paranoid.




Benton Mobley



CyberChas
Member since Nov-7-04
48 posts Nov-18-04, 12:05 PM (PST)

2. "Another thing "they" might do..."
In response to message #1


I forgot to mention in my "How they will respond to this" post is the following...
If the story and the investigations begin to get serious traction, and media are beginning to publicize it, they will insert some FALSE INFORMATION or RED HERRING into the process. When this RH is debunked, they will try to spin the debunking to include the ENTIRE VOTE FRAUD.

Consider CBS/memogate as a means of totally defusing a growing question about Bush's national guard duty as the prime and best example of this strategy. A couple of well-planted, potentially false (not even necessarily) documents that can be questioned, and the whole story with the 1000 other non-false documents somehow "goes away." (Damn, sometimes I have to give these crooks credit -- they really are brilliant in an evil genius sort of way.)

It is why the strategy of collecting as much solid evidence as possible, making the legal requests as necessary, and going to court when appropriate, but not screaming CONSPIRACY at the first apparent sign of one will serve us best.

Besides, if the FBI seized the material in order to PROTECT those who perpetrated the VOTE FRAUD then there is not a single thing we can do about it. If they seized it to actually INVESTIGATE, then the truth will out, eventually.

IMHO,

Charlie Levenson
Portland, Oregon



Not silenced, just tired and having to do some of my "day job"


If we allow this election to stand without a fight, and the media convinces the masses that it was "fair and trouble-free" then we will never have another honest election in our lifetimes in this country.

bmoney07
Member since Nov-9-04
47 posts Nov-18-04, 12:17 PM (PST)

3. "RE: Another thing "they" might do..."
In response to message #2

I'm with you on the fact that there is nothing we can really do with the FBI situation.
Lets say the FBI, the GAO and even possible congressional hearings proove FRAUD which is what we would like to see.

Will anybody REALLY be punished or will the government/angencies involve just give slap on the wrists to the people involved?

I just think that this country is under the spell that no matter who gets involved and what he results are that there will be no real hard conscequences to the criminals.

Did Clinton get impeached?
Is Martha Stewart doing hard time?
Are all of the Enron people tried and convicted?
What ever happen to Bunnatine Greenhouse the pentagon whistle blower on Haliburton?
It's like a combination of a self serving and self protecting vicious cycle.

Its just ashame that we can not get the other side of the country to get more involved in protecting our democracy/votes - regardless of who they elected.

When are ALL of the people going to rise and start to take back what is rightfully theirs?

Maybe this maybe not

Benton Mobley

posted by november3rd at 1:00 PM

0 Comments:
Post a Comment

[nolabels]

231. No, I figured you would

Like I would be so obvious

Sometimes I go fishing and sometimes eat off other peoples fish.
This is really great fun you know, and it was nice of you keeping CyberNet on the front burner for us :thumbsup:

[Bozos for Bush]

218. 2ND LINK - STILL NOTHING!

These search terms have been highlighted: cybernet vote fraud



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From [e-mail] Fri Oct 27 00:40:30 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Abiogenesis Software <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.graphics.misc,comp.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc
Subject: RFD: comp.sys.be
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 27 Oct 1995 04:39:34 -0000
Organization: .
Lines: 65
Sender: [e-mail]
Approved: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <46pnq6$[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.sys.be
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7762 news.groups:171559 comp.graphics.misc:3176 comp.multimedia:45220 comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:143663 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:6836 comp.sys.next.advocacy:36300 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:84941 comp.sys.powerpc:68035

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
unmoderated group comp.sys.be

This is a formal Request for Discussion for the creation of the
unmoderated Usenet newsgroup comp.sys.be.

This is not a Call for Votes - do not vote now.

To participate in the discussion follow the topic on news.groups.
Please do not discuss the group creation in other groups - it will
most probably be off topic there.

RATIONALE: comp.sys.be

Be, Incorporated has created a new computer system, consisting of new
operating system software, and hardware based upon the PowerPC Processor.
While the BeBox and BeOS are based upon technologies discussed in other
news groups it is inappropriate to discuss many topics related to the
Bebox in these other groups. The newsgroup would be for the discussion of
hardware, operating system, and applications of the BeBox.

CHARTER: comp.sys.be

comp.sys.be is an unmoderated newsgroup for the discussion of all subjects
related to the BeBox.

Possible Topics include:

BeOS Becoming a Developer
Third Party Applications Developer Support
BeBox Hardware Peripherals
OS porting Games
Magazines Local Events
BeBox Sightings Demos
Job Opportunities Where to Buy...

Topics unrelated to the BeBox should not be posted to this group.

END CHARTER.

PROCEDURE:

This RFD initiates a discussion period of at least 21 days. If a
consensus on the charter and the name of the group is reached, a Call
for Votes (CFV) for the group will be issued. Exact voting conditions
will be outlined in the CFV, the vote will be conducted by a neutral
third party. The voting period will last from 21 to 31 days, and the
group will pass if the YES votes outnumber the NO votes by at least
100 votes and if at least 2/3rds of the votes are in favour of the new
group.

Detailed information about the procedure may be found in the article
"How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" in news.announce.newusers.


DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD is cross-posted to the following Usenet newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, comp.sys.powerpc,
comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,
comp.sys.amiga.multimedia, comp.graphics.misc, comp.multimedia,
comp.sys.next.advocacy
--
Julie Petersen <[e-mail]>

From [e-mail] Fri Nov 17 15:48:05 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Jan Isley <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.graphics.misc,comp.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc
Subject: CFV: comp.sys.be
Followup-To: poster
Date: 17 Nov 1995 20:48:00 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 80
Sender: [e-mail]
Approved: [e-mail]
Expires: 9 Dec 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <46pnq6$[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.sys.be
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7887 news.groups:174540 comp.graphics.misc:3845 comp.multimedia:46420 comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:145490 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:6986 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:88532 comp.sys.next.advocacy:36857 comp.sys.powerpc:70999

FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group comp.sys.be

Newsgroups line:
comp.sys.be General topics related to BeBox computer.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 8 Dec 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Julie Petersen <[e-mail]>
Votetaker: Jan Isley <[e-mail]>

RATIONALE: comp.sys.be

Whereas a significant percentage of postings on comp.sys.amiga,
comp.sys.next and comp.sys.powerpc occurred at the announcement of
the BeBox computer, where they were interfering with discussions
related to those computers, and since mailing list participation
quickly grew to over 100 participants, with active participation
on IRC and other discussion venues, it is reasonable to form
a separate, more targeted newsgroup for BeBox-related discussions.

CHARTER: comp.sys.be

This newsgroup is for discussions related to the BeBox computer system,
created by Be, Incorporated. It consists of new operating system software
and hardware based upon the PowerPC Processor. The newsgroup will be
for discussion of the hardware, operating system, third party development,
distribution and applications of BeBox technology.

END CHARTER.

HOW TO VOTE:

You should send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:

[e-mail]

Please do not assume that just replying to this message will work.
Check the address before you mail your vote. Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following vote statements:

I vote YES on comp.sys.be
I vote NO on comp.sys.be

You may also vote ABSTAIN or CANCEL but these are not counted as valid
votes for the total count.

NAMES ARE REQUIRED. If your mail software does not indicate your name,
include the following statement and add your name (on the same line).

Voter name:

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply. One person, one vote. Votes
must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker. Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid. Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Vote counting is automated. Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted. If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly. Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote. Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup. Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose. Please do not distribute
this CFV. If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.
--
Jan Isley <[e-mail]> | Running UseVote 3.
votes to: <[e-mail]> | Powered by FreeBSD

From [e-mail] Thu Nov 30 09:30:31 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Jan Isley <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.graphics.misc,comp.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc
Subject: 2nd CFV: comp.sys.be
Supersedes: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: poster
Date: 30 Nov 1995 14:30:25 -0000
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 93
Sender: [e-mail]
Approved: [e-mail]
Expires: 9 Dec 1995 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <46pnq6$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.sys.be
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:7958 news.groups:177011 comp.graphics.misc:4202 comp.multimedia:47121 comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:146530 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:7072 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:90112 comp.sys.next.advocacy:37066 comp.sys.powerpc:72153

LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group comp.sys.be

Newsgroups line:
comp.sys.be General topics related to BeBox computer.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 8 Dec 1995.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Julie Petersen <[e-mail]>
Votetaker: Jan Isley <[e-mail]>

RATIONALE: comp.sys.be

Whereas a significant percentage of postings on comp.sys.amiga,
comp.sys.next and comp.sys.powerpc occurred at the announcement of
the BeBox computer, where they were interfering with discussions
related to those computers, and since mailing list participation
quickly grew to over 100 participants, with active participation
on IRC and other discussion venues, it is reasonable to form
a separate, more targeted newsgroup for BeBox-related discussions.

CHARTER: comp.sys.be

This newsgroup is for discussions related to the BeBox computer system,
created by Be, Incorporated. It consists of new operating system software
and hardware based upon the PowerPC Processor. The newsgroup will be
for discussion of the hardware, operating system, third party development,
distribution and applications of BeBox technology.

END CHARTER.

HOW TO VOTE:

You should send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:

[e-mail]

Please do not assume that just replying to this message will work.
Check the address before you mail your vote. Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following vote statements:

I vote YES on comp.sys.be
I vote NO on comp.sys.be

You may also vote ABSTAIN or CANCEL but these are not counted as valid
votes for the total count.

NAMES ARE REQUIRED. If your mail software does not indicate your name,
include the following statement and add your name (on the same line).

Voter name:

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply. One person, one vote. Votes
must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker. Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid. Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Vote counting is automated. Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted. If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly. Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote. Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup. Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose. Please do not distribute
this CFV. If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

comp.sys.be Mass Voter list

Invalid ballots
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail]
! No name given
[e-mail]
! No name given
[e-mail] Robert Zillekens
! No vote statement in message
[e-mail]
! No vote statement in message
--
Jan Isley <[e-mail]> | Running UseVote 3.
votes to: <[e-mail]> | Powered by FreeBSD

From [e-mail] Thu Dec 14 07:36:10 1995
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: Jan Isley <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.graphics.misc,comp.multimedia,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.multimedia,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc
Subject: RESULT: comp.sys.be passes 377:31
Supersedes: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 14 Dec 1995 07:36:05 -0500
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 477
Sender: [e-mail]
Approved: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <46pnq6$[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Archive-Name: comp.sys.be
Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:8010 news.groups:178984 comp.graphics.misc:4677 comp.multimedia:48226 comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:147568 comp.sys.amiga.multimedia:7168 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:91655 comp.sys.next.advocacy:37519 comp.sys.powerpc:73238

RESULT
unmoderated group comp.sys.be passes 377:31

There were 377 YES votes and 31 NO votes, for a total of 408 valid
votes. There were 2 abstentions and 4 invalid ballots.

For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
than NO votes.

A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
thereafter.

Newsgroups line:
comp.sys.be General topics related to BeBox computer.

Votes closed on 23:59:59 UTC, 8 Dec 1995.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Julie Petersen <[e-mail]>
Votetaker: Jan Isley <[e-mail]>

RATIONALE: comp.sys.be

Whereas a significant percentage of postings on comp.sys.amiga,
comp.sys.next and comp.sys.powerpc occurred at the announcement of
the BeBox computer, where they were interfering with discussions
related to those computers, and since mailing list participation
quickly grew to over 100 participants, with active participation
on IRC and other discussion venues, it is reasonable to form
a separate, more targeted newsgroup for BeBox-related discussions.

CHARTER: comp.sys.be

This newsgroup is for discussions related to the BeBox computer system,
created by Be, Incorporated. It consists of new operating system software
and hardware based upon the PowerPC Processor. The newsgroup will be
for discussion of the hardware, operating system, third party development,
distribution and applications of BeBox technology.

END CHARTER.

comp.sys.be Final Voter list

Voted YES
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] Hans Kraus
[e-mail] Martin Michlmayr
[e-mail] John Saunders
[e-mail] Allan Duncan
[e-mail] Daniel Koch
[e-mail] Mr MD James
[e-mail] James Wondrasek
[e-mail] Peter Jackson
[e-mail] Keith Owens
[e-mail] Andrew Hamilton
[e-mail] Dr Phil Guerney
[e-mail] Kurt Lust
[e-mail] Allen Lee
[e-mail] Steve Servais
[e-mail] William T. Graham
[e-mail] Terry Palfrey
[e-mail] simon (s.) lewis
[e-mail] Andrew Jeanes
[e-mail] David D'Andrea
[e-mail] Richard Feltham
[e-mail] Jake Burkholder
[e-mail] Ivan Alves
[e-mail] Oliver Seiler
[e-mail] Guillaume Lessard
[e-mail] Ruth Tanner
[e-mail] David Evans
[e-mail] Kelly Roach
[e-mail] Daniel Gerald Kluge
[e-mail] Martin Bischoff
[e-mail] Christoph Dworzak
[e-mail] Sean Hill
[e-mail] Julie Petersen
[e-mail] Stephen Humphrey
[e-mail] Fred Fish
[e-mail] Brant Coghlan
[e-mail] Jeremy Wohl
[e-mail] Mark Rotenberg
[e-mail] Edward Deans
[e-mail] Nikki Lee Kim
[e-mail] Ian Goldsmith
[e-mail] Nathan J. Mehl
[e-mail] Benoit Schllings
[e-mail] Bradley Taylor
[e-mail] Carl Hansen
[e-mail] Peter J. Potrebic
[e-mail] Steve Cobb
[e-mail] Tyng-Jing Yang
[e-mail] Dave Cell
[e-mail] Jerry Hudgins
[e-mail] Mark Mayhle
[e-mail] Ethan Phelps-Goodman
[e-mail] Phil Wright
[e-mail] Matt Hucke
[e-mail] The Lord of Wolves
[e-mail] Brad Wilson
[e-mail] Peter Wemm
[e-mail] Steve Klingsporn
[e-mail] Ty Sarna
[e-mail] Matt Ackeret
[e-mail] James B Frazer
[e-mail] Andre' Johansen
[e-mail] Todd W. Kunkel
[e-mail] Steven W. Riggins
[e-mail] John De Hoog
[e-mail] David Stuve
[e-mail] Roland Beck
[e-mail] Neil Gall
[e-mail] Luca Deri
[e-mail] Jimmy McKinney
[e-mail] Aaron D. Ruiz
[e-mail] Eric M. Brombaugh
[e-mail] Rick Nelson
[e-mail] Robert Riches
[e-mail] Bill McCloskey
[e-mail] Jeff Pleimling
[e-mail] trevor tymchuk
[e-mail] Joseph Crowe
[e-mail] Jim Menard
[e-mail] Douglas Moore
[e-mail] James H. Cloos Jr.
[e-mail] Joe Carp
[e-mail] Steve Miale
[e-mail] Jon Watte
[e-mail] Brian Stern <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] Louis Gerbarg
[e-mail] John Worthington
[e-mail] Neal P. Murphy
[e-mail] Phred Menyhert
[e-mail] Purodha B Blissenbach
[e-mail] Daniel G. Robinson
[e-mail] Cord Ellis
[e-mail] John Churchill
[e-mail] Don Ballard
[e-mail] Ken Nelson
[e-mail] Jeff Trestrail
[e-mail] Andrew M. Hoerter
[e-mail] Craig Koller
[e-mail] Erik Kraft
[e-mail] Dave Ely
[e-mail] Steve Folta
[e-mail] David C. Navas
[e-mail] Joseph Palmer
[e-mail] Nathan Dwyer
[e-mail] Robert Turk
[e-mail] Thomas G. McWilliams
[e-mail] Jason Untulis
[e-mail] Mark Bessey
[e-mail] Jeremy \"TheBrez\" Bresley
[e-mail] Erik Doernenburg
[e-mail] Robert Zillekens
[e-mail] Van Long Nguyen
[e-mail] Ken Case
[e-mail] Jim B. Moy
[e-mail] Alan Boucek
[e-mail] David W. Crawford
[e-mail] Rich Will Powers
[e-mail] Salvatore Restivo
[e-mail] David A. Sinclair
[e-mail] Matt Pauker
[e-mail] Edward Kumiega
[e-mail] Nick de Jong
[e-mail] James R. (Bob) Proffitt
[e-mail] Pohl Longsine
[e-mail] Joel Klecker
[e-mail] Kim DeVaughn
[e-mail] Scott Jeffrey Corley
[e-mail] John Grant
[e-mail] Ric Fischer
[e-mail] Paul Hoffman
[e-mail] Ronald Menelli
[e-mail] Kent Paul Dolan
[e-mail] Jon M. Kutemeier
[e-mail] Andreas Wickberg
[e-mail] Steve Peterson
[e-mail] Jerry Ponko
[e-mail] Manuel Veloso
[e-mail] Dan Barrans
[e-mail] Dave Haynie
[e-mail] John Chang
[e-mail] Martin D. Frankel
[e-mail] Payam Mirrashidi
[e-mail] Mike Trogni
[e-mail] Larry Rosenstein
[e-mail] Peter da Silva
[e-mail] Colen Garoutte-Carson
[e-mail] Darryl Andrews
[e-mail] Darren Metcalfe
[e-mail] David E. Tin Nyo
[e-mail] Michael Plump
[e-mail] Chris Frank
[e-mail] Larry Phillips
[e-mail] Phil Nelson
[e-mail] William Needel
[e-mail] Chris Muir
[e-mail] Lee Choquette
[e-mail] Xavier Stonestreet
[e-mail] Michael Hall
[e-mail] Martin Dluhos
[e-mail] Harald Fricke
[e-mail] Klaus Heinz
[e-mail] Bernhard Scheffold
[e-mail] Andreas Pfaller
[e-mail] Juergen Sell
[e-mail] Andre Weissflog
[e-mail] Martin Schr"oder
[e-mail] Gerhard Moeller
[e-mail] Horst Albermann
[e-mail] Nat!
[e-mail] Martin Koehling
[e-mail] A. Wohlfeld
[e-mail] Thomas Eicher
[e-mail] Henning Sauer
[e-mail] Wolfgang Solfrank
[e-mail] Markus Freericks
[e-mail] Patrick Harms
[e-mail] Ronny Schoebel
[e-mail] Eberhard Wolff
[e-mail] Wolfgang von Hansen
[e-mail] Joerg van Calker
[e-mail] Rainer Riedl
[e-mail] Stefan Winterstein-Theobald
[e-mail] Lars Eilebrecht
[e-mail] Thorsten Seitz
[e-mail] Benny Amorsen
[e-mail] Jacob Veedfald
[e-mail] Torben Winther Graversen
[e-mail] Hans Holten-Lund
[e-mail] Charles G. Fleming
[e-mail] Jason Ramsey
[e-mail] Nevin ":-]" Liber
[e-mail] Wendell Beckwith
[e-mail] Luis Alcazar-Roman
[e-mail] Jim Burke
[e-mail] Paul Clip
[e-mail] Berend Ozceri
[e-mail] Brian D Sammon
[e-mail] Craig Schmidt
[e-mail] Derek B. Noonburg
[e-mail] Samuel John Kass
[e-mail] Wayne P. Rogers
[e-mail] Christopher Lodge Stamper
[e-mail] Dan Riley
[e-mail] Erik A. Dahl
[e-mail] Andy Pierce
[e-mail] Donald N. Petcher
[e-mail] Derrik Walker v2.0
[e-mail] Eric M. Kidd
[e-mail] Kevin Thompson
[e-mail] Mahesh Neelakanta
[e-mail] Bill Bereza
[e-mail] T.j.
[e-mail] Brian Collett
[e-mail] Roger Hart
[e-mail] Toby Everett
[e-mail] Dan Lakeland
[e-mail] Leonardo Sanchez
[e-mail] Zachery Joseph Bir
[e-mail] Timothy Jamison
[e-mail] Frithjof Horst Kuntze
[e-mail] Kendall Sears
[e-mail] Joshua Gigantino
[e-mail] Kuang-Yu Liu
[e-mail] Carl Alexander
[e-mail] Francis I-wei Hsu
[e-mail] Ping Huang
[e-mail] Kevin Hendrickson
[e-mail] John Norstad
[e-mail] Jason S. Ehrlich
[e-mail] Pascal Meunier
[e-mail] Eric K. Ringger
[e-mail] Garance A Drosehn
[e-mail] David Rugge
[e-mail] AMOS LATTEIER
[e-mail] Dylan Northrup
[e-mail] Shimpei Yamashita
[e-mail] Chris Alexander
[e-mail] Peter Charles Lichtner
[e-mail] Jackie Meyer
[e-mail] Costa Colbert
[e-mail] Richard H. Miller
[e-mail] Gary Fisk
[e-mail] Chris Koenigsberg
[e-mail] Lance K. Chun
[e-mail] Rex Peralta
[e-mail] Cheyne Daggett
[e-mail] Maarten Bergvelt
[e-mail] Michael W. Daniels
[e-mail] Zhihui Jerry Huang
[e-mail] Paul Pazandak
[e-mail] Peter Fleck
[e-mail] Eric Gottlieb
[e-mail] Erick M. Santos
[e-mail] Eric Fortune
[e-mail] James McCartney
[e-mail] Leon von Stauber
[e-mail] Terry Moore
[e-mail] Duane Storti
[e-mail] Scott Johnson
[e-mail] Tomas Charles Willis
[e-mail] Peter Bierman
[e-mail] J. Rufinus
[e-mail] Pete Bastien
[e-mail] Thierry A. W. Wasserman
[e-mail] Vicente Cruz
[e-mail] Rafael Collantes
[e-mail] Mikko Makela
[e-mail] Risto Widenius
[e-mail] Osma Ahvenlampi
[e-mail] Kai-Peter Backman
[e-mail] Timo Rossi
[e-mail] Juha Laiho
[e-mail] Markku Kolkka
[e-mail] Olivier HIGELIN
[e-mail] Baudracco Pierre
[e-mail] Emmanuel Lesueur
[e-mail] Laurent PELLISSIER
[e-mail] Fabrice MARGUERIE ([e-mail] [e-mail])
[e-mail] Georges-Edouard Berenger
[e-mail]
Michel Coste [e-mail] Xavier Leroy
[e-mail] Hubert Figuiere
[e-mail] Olivier Tharan
[e-mail] Patrick MAGNAUD
[e-mail] TRANVOUEZ Gwena\kl TP272
[e-mail] Jean-Francois Brouillet
[e-mail] Laurent Demailly
[e-mail] Benoit Triquet
[e-mail] [e-mail] (Didier CABUZEL)
[e-mail] POLLION Pascal
[e-mail] William Hachfeld <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] .. G. Edward Johnson
[e-mail] Alan K. Thompson
[e-mail] Eddy Carroll
[e-mail] Daire Garvey
[e-mail] Akifumi Tokosumi
[e-mail] CYRIL MARTI
[e-mail] Steve Madsen
[e-mail] Hidehiko Ogata
[e-mail] Carole Brophy
[e-mail] Geoffrey L. Wright
[e-mail] Mark Atwood
[e-mail] jmz
[e-mail] Michael K. Sanders
[e-mail] Chris Long
[e-mail] Luc Dumaine
[e-mail] Chad Irby
[e-mail] Michael Daleiden/IMAGEnation Videoptix
[e-mail] Aaron L Dickey
[e-mail] Arno Griffioen
[e-mail] Nigel Kneale
[e-mail] Tom 'moof' Spindler
[e-mail] Randy Case
[e-mail] Dru Jay
[e-mail] Wes Santee
[e-mail] Bill Moyer
[e-mail] Andrew MacBride
[e-mail] Jamie Siglar
[e-mail] Jim Koll
fmicos!longhorn![e-mail] Tom "Tom" Harrington
[e-mail] Susan Pinochet
[e-mail] Sean M. Harris
[e-mail] Jean-Marc Ouvre
[e-mail] Ad Buijsen
[e-mail] Robbert J. van Meenen
[e-mail] Branko Collin
[e-mail] Lennard voor den Dag
[e-mail] Marc Aussems
[e-mail] Martijn Plak
[e-mail] Carsten Soerensen
[e-mail] Eivind Eklund
[e-mail] Jesper Hansen
[e-mail] Jon Rocatis
[e-mail] Jon Anders Haugum
[e-mail] Roy Toresen
[e-mail] Ole Chr. Magneshaugen
[e-mail] Kristel Steen
[e-mail] Ludvig Alexander Pedersen <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] Stig Arne Olsen
[e-mail] Vegar Skjaerven Wang
[e-mail] Alexander Wilkens
[e-mail] Troels Walsted Hansen
[e-mail] Jens Helmers
[e-mail] David Eaves
[e-mail] Paul Petricevich <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] Brett Cooper
[e-mail] dan hitt
[e-mail] Orion
[e-mail] Didier Steger [e-mail]
[e-mail] David Ludwig
[e-mail] E. Michael O'Neill
[e-mail] Thorsten Günther
[e-mail] Peter Nitezki
[e-mail] murshid
[e-mail] Yannick Menager
[e-mail] Manolo Matos
[e-mail] Erik Lundevall
[e-mail] Dag Klingstedt
[e-mail] Jakob Eriksson
[e-mail] Jonas Tehler
[e-mail] Attila Mezei
[e-mail] Per Salmi
[e-mail] Johannes Elg
[e-mail] Jonas Petersson
[e-mail] Mikael Ostergren
[e-mail] Erik Trulsson
[e-mail] Ng Yen Kaow
[e-mail] Tomaz Slivnik
[e-mail] Allan Donald
[e-mail] Adrian Ford
[e-mail] Chris Brown
[e-mail] Ellis Pritchard
[e-mail] Richard Hutchinson
[e-mail] Wai Tao
[e-mail] Cy Booker
[e-mail] Andrew Hoddinott
[e-mail] Dominic Latter

Voted NO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] Albert Koellner
[e-mail] Peter Moulder
[e-mail] Jan Coekelberghs
[e-mail] Kevin Mitchell
[e-mail] Paul Sarkar
[e-mail] Darren Eveland
[e-mail] Balaji
[e-mail] Mark Milem
[e-mail] Dwight Brown
[e-mail] J. Stick
[e-mail] William Affleck-Asch
[e-mail] John R. MacWilliamson
[e-mail] Olav Nieuwejaar
[e-mail] Colin Jensen
[e-mail] Karl Kraft
[e-mail] Jeffrey David Cohen
[e-mail] Jens Ch. Gloede
[e-mail] Todd C. Lawson
[e-mail] Eric Scharff
[e-mail] Glen Patrick Ryan
[e-mail] Sherman Uitzetter
[e-mail] Smarasderagd
[e-mail] Tim Pierce
[e-mail] tETSUO(t2o) oDA
[e-mail] Brian Bresnahan
[e-mail] Michiel Wijers
[e-mail] Keith Brazington
[e-mail] Uwe Storbeck
[e-mail] Bahman Moallem
[e-mail] Ian Jackson
[e-mail] David Wright

Abstained
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] Kenneth P Crouch
[e-mail] Jan Isley {guest - asst uucpMC}

Invalid ballots
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail]
! No name given
[e-mail]
! No name given
[e-mail]
! No name given
[e-mail]
! No vote statement in message

[Bozos for Bush]

219. 3RD LINK - NOTHING!

These search terms have been highlighted: cybernet vote fraud



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



One of Yahoo's "most popular" sites!

Contents:
Home
News
Forums
CAN-SPAM Library
Articles
Bookshelf
About Us
Contact Us




Recommended Reading:
How the U.S. Anticybersquatting Act May Adversely Affect Foreign Trademark Owners


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Legal Guidelines for Advertising on the Internet


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doug Isenberg's GigaLaw.com®: "Legal Information for Internet Professionals"


GigaLaw.com Daily News


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get GigaLaw.com Daily News delivered daily: Details

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PayPal Pays Small Sum to CertCo to Settle Patent Suit
PayPal has settled its legal disputes with online security company CertCo, the companies said. As part of the settlement, PayPal made a small, undisclosed payment to CertCo, PayPal spokesman Vince Sollitto said.

Read the article: ZDNet News

Further reading on GigaLaw.com: Patent Lessons Provided by PayPal and Palm
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Hewlett's Lawyers Call Vote "Neither Free Nor Fair"
Hewlett-Packard's efforts to sway the vote of Deutsche Bank in favor of the Compaq Computer acquisition were tantamount to vote-buying, lawyers for Walter Hewlett argued in legal papers. The lawyers also charged that HP failed to disclose material information to shareholders.


Read the article: CNET News.com
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Small Online Radio Stations to Protest Copyright Fees with Silence
In a move to drum up opposition for a proposed royalty regime for Internet radio, hundreds of small online radio stations plan to turn off their music streams. The independent Webcasters are protesting a royalty fee proposed by the Copyright Arbitration Royalty Panel.


Read the article: CNET News.com
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Judge Orders Online Adult Network to Police Copyrights
A federal court judge has ordered the operator of a members-only network for access to adult Web sites to crack down on copyright infringement on Web sites run by many of its nearly 300,000 affiliates. A massive policing effort ordered by U.S. District Court Judge Lourdes Baird in Los Angeles means that Cybernet Ventures must eventually examine the content of thousands of sites linked to its popular Adult Check system in a hunt for the names and photographs of celebrities and models represented by the tony nude magazine "Perfect 10."


Read the article: Newsbytes
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Registration Procedures for ".us" Domain Names Criticized
When the ".us" Internet suffix became available to the public last week, people and companies responded in droves, as more than 200,000 names were registered. But some consumer advocates say certain addresses, such as union.us and nonprofit.us, should not have been sold on a first-come, first-served basis.


Read the article: The Washington Post
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Jury Awards $20 Million to Silicon Storage in Patent Case
Atmel Corp. was awarded nearly $20 million by a jury in its patent-infringement suit against Silicon Storage Technology Inc. Atmel, a semiconductor maker based in San Jose, said Monday that it would seek a tripling of the damages, interest and payment of attorney's fees, on the jury's findings that Silicon Storage had willfully infringed two patents, which related to charge pumps in memory products.


Read the article: SiliconValley.com
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Elcomsoft CEO Defends E-Book Program, Criticizes DMCA
Speaking in a thick Russian accent and occasionally pausing for minutes at a time before answering questions, Russian programmer Alexander Katalov said that, most of all, he is confounded by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act -- a law, he says, that makes it "illegal to produce legal programs." Katalov's company, Elcomsoft, faces charges that it offered technology that can be used to crack protections on Adobe Systems' e-books.


Read the article: ZDNet News
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Microsoft Calls Qwest Executive to Counter SBC Testimony
Qwest Senior Vice President Gregg Sutherland testified that it is not in Microsoft's interest to use its market power to shut out non-Microsoft devices in the emerging voice and data messaging market. Microsoft used Sutherland's testimony to reject earlier testimony by an SBC Communications engineer that tough antitrust penalties are needed to restrain Microsoft from taking over unified messaging services.


Read the article: USA Today
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Microsoft's New Security Chief Draws on Legal Background
Meet Microsoft's new tough cop: a security czar who says he will draw heavily on his government background to shore up the holes in Microsoft's software that make it a popular target for hackers -- one of the company's top missions for the year. Scott Charney, formerly the Justice Department's computer crime chief, has two priorities: reviewing Microsoft's products and working with its customers to figure out how to protect key area's of the nation's computer infrastructure, much of which runs on Microsoft software.


Read the article: USA Today
(Posted: 4/30/2002)
Cofounder of EarthLink Pleads Guilty in Fraud Scheme
EarthLink Inc. cofounder Reed Slatkin pleaded guilty to 15 federal counts relating to a fraud scheme that bilked investors out of at least $254 million. Slatkin, 53, who also served as a financial adviser to celebrities, business executives and socialites, pleaded guilty to five counts of mail fraud, three counts of wire fraud, six counts of money laundering and one count of conspiracy to obstruct justice.


Read the article: SiliconValley.com
(Posted: 4/30/2002)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GigaLaw.com Daily News archives

GigaLaw.com's News Around the Web





























Terms and Conditions | Privacy Policy

[Bozos for Bush]

220. TIP FOR PROPER GOOGLE SEARCHES

Someone Googles Cybernet + vote + fraud

They see this:

autumn winds: Operation blizzard... recount in New Hampshire where unusual anomalies indicate possible VOTE FRAUD, and may ... What is your take on the FBI raiding the Cybernet Headquarters in Grand ...
autumnwindsflotron.blogspot.com/ 2004/11/operation-blizzard.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages


NOTICE THE ...

THE ... MEANS IT LEAVES ONE STORY AND GOES TO ANOTHER.

The ... is not the same thing as "clip" at DU

In order to google properly, you must go to the actual link provided by your search, and see if anything is there - the ... is a good clue that the two things separated by ... are not connected, but you still have to go and look.

So the poster at the bottom of this thread is gravely mistaken to believe that he/she found something, just because a google search turned up the magic words in the same webpage.

[nolabels]

233. Mostly I don't use Google to look things up that much

Once in while for a quickie maybe. Here is link, I just thought somebody might want to study up on their search engines, so I looked up this old thread. I really wasn't looking at anything other than volume there in Google to be specific

Being Googled
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=17950

[GingerSnaps]

236. DON'T EVER USE GOOGLE

Use the other browsers if you want to find information. Watch out for sock-puppets giving you misleading information also. :D

[eowyn_of_rohan]

244. Hey gingersnaps

Wha' happened to that other thread? POOF! It's gone! But this one is still here. Looks like we have been freed from the grip of the evil empire--for the time being anyway.

Now, can you educate me--what is a sock puppet? (I mean except for the literal sock puppet)

[Pepper32]

250. Yep, it certainly seems that way.

They will soon be here to continue the bashing.

Anyway, just keep doing what you feel is necessary. Without the first amendment what do we truly have in this country? The only thing left would be FEAR.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

254. The only reason I fought them today is because

I didn't want their propaganda to be the only voice on the board. I am pretty sick of the fight really and doubt I will get into at that level again.

What is a sockpuppet?

[Name removed]

255. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

239. FYI I didn't use Google

AND the information I found has some EXTREMELY RELEVANT TIES between BAYPOINT and ICARE and Florida.

STOP JUMPING INTO THESE THREADS AND DISRUPTING THE RESEARCH. I AM REPORTING YOU TO THE MODS.

[Carolab]

234. Baypoint Schools website--Links with ICARE, IAF and ACORN!

http://www.baypointschools.com/Computer%20Lab.htm

Does this lab look "complete" to you? And why are the faces photoshopped?

Can anyone blow an image up and read where the equipment came from?

HERE'S SOMETHING INSIDIOUS FOR Y'ALL:

Baypoint Schools was started as ICARE by a Dr. Cole in 1995. LOOK how its funding has grown since then!!

http://www.baypointschools.com/general.html

Bay Point Schools, Inc. is an alternative boarding school that provides educational/vocational and therapeutic services to moderate-risk adolescent boys. It was founded in 1995, as ICARE Bay Point Schools, Inc., on a former missile base that once housed volunteers and materials for the rehabilitation of the homes destroyed by Hurricane Andrew in 1992. With the rehabilitation of family homes completed Dr. Cole, the founder, contracted with the Department of Juvenile Justice, to establish ICARE as a school to rehabilitate the lives of 36 troubled boys. In 1995, Bay Point Schools, Inc. was established as a pilot boarding school for 13 to 18 year old, juvenile delinquents, based on a theory that these boys are not mentally ill, sick, or born bad. In place of a treatment model, education, behavior modification and moral development are emphasized in a new innovative boarding school approach based on the sociological model. Five years later, Bay Points budget has grown from $986,000 to $5.2 million and from 36 to 175 troubled youths. In 1998, it was rated, by the Juvenile Justice Accountability Board, as the best commitment program of its kind in the state of Florida.

*************************


Read the information BELOW about ICARE and its links to extremist faith-based programs AND to Jeb Bush!

http://www.missionsun.net/tcaoct2003.htm
ICARE, the Interchurch Coalition for Action Reconciliation and Empowerment, according to their recent publication, is “a 501© (3) non-profit organization currently composed of 35 active African-American and White member congregations and parishes from 12 denominations and Jacksonville’s different neighborhoods and economic backgrounds.” Founded in 1996 by pastors and lay leaders it operates with a budget of $186,000. Listed among its “Denominational and Foundation Supporters” is the Catholic Diocese of St. Augustine and the Catholic Campaign for Human Development. (CCHD). This November, as in all other years, parish collection baskets will be passed for the CCHD collection. Perhaps it is wise to see just where Catholic dollars are going.

A small sidebar in ICARE’s booklet raises an immediate red flag to those who are aware of the troubling issues of the CCHD. ICARE is affiliated with the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF) an insidious, sinister organization infiltrating churches to obtain monies to carry out radical changes in society and politics, changes that are anathema to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Catholics need to be aware that in supporting ICARE by way of the CCHD collection they could be funding, among other unsavory things, abortion. IAF research-author Stephanie Block presents a penetrating expose of CCHD and it’s IAF connections.

Shooting Yourself

The Catholic Campaign for Human Development by Stephanie Block.

The Catholic Church is one institution in contemporary society, perhaps the only one, that has consistently decried the evil of abortion at all stages and by all methods. Yet in the United States, it promotes a charity that puts large sums of money into the hands of those who serve the culture of death. It takes a certain degree of sophistication to follow this donated money along its various circuitous routes, but failure to do so is deadly.

The Catholic Campaign for Human Development - aided and abetted by glitzy ad campaigns and appealing slogans - spends million of dollars annually on organizations that have death at the end of the trail. Do you know how your CCHD donations are spent?

CCHD’s Annual Reports show that well over one third of the national CCHD grants awarded go to Alinsky-style networks of community organizations. (Saul Alinsky, a radical social engineer, founded the IAF in 1940.) The largest and most generously funded of these networks are the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF), Pacific Institute for Community Organizing (PICO), Direct Action and Research Training Institute (DART), Gamaliel and ACORN. Alinsky-style community organizations do not provide direct services to relieve the suffering of the poor nor do they provide economic development grants for the poor. Rather, they organize institutions, particularly faith-based communities like churches to fight for political power.

Weaving Abortion into the package Chicago’s IAF’s "Metropolitan Megacreature"

Chicago's Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF) affiliation received organizational assistance of amazing magnitude on March 16, 1995. Joseph Cardinal Bernardin of the Archdiocese of Chicago and other sponsoring churches from the city's mainstream denominations held a news conference at which they announced that they would be paying $2.6 million over the following six years to organize Chicago churches. What was being organized? The US Catholic provides a pretty good description of the Chicago IAF: United Power. First of all, it is enormous —340 congregations and organizations from the entire Chicago metropolitan area, which claims a population of 7.5 million and initial pledges of almost $3 million.

Second, it includes in addition to churches, synagogues, Muslim mosques, and Buddhist temples-a vast, growing enrollment of secular entities: labor unions, hospitals and health networks, civic coalitions, and professional groups. As a result United Power should be regarded as “a broad-based citizens’ organization” rather than a strictly congregation-based one. United Power is trying to draw on both the faith tradition in the churches and the democratic tradition in unions and associations.

Only months later, after dialogue and consultation within all sectors of its map, did the organization announce two major initiatives: obtaining health coverage for the uninsured and making home ownership more available Some fear the titanic size of this new creature will make it unwieldy, if not impossible to steer.

IAF’s promoters however, feel the standard size community organization must give way to something grander and more potent. City and suburban dwellers must now understand and acknowledge their interdependency. Organizations working just for the poor or minorities will not succeed because there’s no such thing as a single issue or a small social problem. Great power must be confronted with great power, they say.

A large percentage of the “seed money” to build the Chicago IAF, $1 million, came from the Archdiocese of Chicago. CCHD money came into play later, to support the expansion of this mega-creature. It also funds some of the subsidiary organizations within the larger IAF coalition. These CCHD-funded organizations then pay dues to the Chicago IAF affiliate. It’s quite an arrangement….

The Deadly Dozen, Politics Above All

Another CCHD funded network is ACORN, which generally takes 5-6% of the national CCHD annual budget. It's one of the most flagrantly political among CCHD's grantees, having formed a political party, the New Party, in a political alliance with the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), among others. There's no secret about ACORN's political activism…. The New Party is pro-abortion. It's website links to such "friends" as the Abortion Rights Activist Home Page, NARAL (National Abortion and Reproduction Rights Action League), and NOW (National Organization for Women). ACORN is also pro-abortion.

ICARE – Identical goals?...(TCA)

With ICARE’s frank admission of membership in the Alinsky-styled organizations, it is no surprise to find them agitating for the same IAF’s goals: Health Care for the uninsured, Education for teacher training to learn behavior management, Parents Organized for Power, “for greater involvement in local school affairs,” etc. But aren’t these worthy goals? They may or may not be.

Researcher Block points out the “ethics” Saul Alinsky proposed to his community organizers are “straight from hell.” “A few examples from Alinsky’s writing make that clear: The third rule of the ethics of means and ends is that...the end justifies almost any means.. The tenth rule of the ethics of means and ends is that you do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments.”

“All participants in the IAF national training programs are given a reprint of a 1933 article by John H. Randall, Jr. titled “the Importance of Being Unprincipled.” The theme is to be effective in politics one has to learn to be “unprincipled enough to compromise in order to see their principles succeed.”

ICARE facilitators have learned their lessons well. The local FL Times Union, (4/27/01) states ICARE talks tough to improve city life. “The top brass for Duval County schools dislikes its tactics. The mayor’s former chief of staff says it was the most tenacious community organization she’d ever dealt with” In 1997, when Mayor John Delaney didn’t show up for an ICARE meeting, officials notified the news media.

What are IAF affiliates doing around the country? Block answers that question: Education reform that creates government control over all facets of a citizen’s life; Health care that is linked to Planned Parenthood and other contraception providers; Citizen participation bringing diversity together.

Why is the IAF targeting churches for its organizing efforts? One of the largest reservoirs of untapped power is the institution of the parish and congregation. Religious institutions form the center of the organization. They have the people, the values and the money. (IAF pub.)

The network of politics, power grabs and self-interests makes it painful to accept that we Catholics are as much – if not more- to blame for our aborting country than our pro-abortion neighbors. We know. We have the Church’s teaching, with its constant reminder that human life is sacred.

This year when the collection plate comes around, remember that you can sabotage Church teaching with a flick of your wrist. You can shoot it down by paying for organizations to fight for health clinics that dispense contraceptives and make abortion referrals. You can shoot it down by paying for organizing that supports pro-abortion politicians. You can shoot it down by paying for organizing that trains Catholics to dissent. Just don’t be surprised by the blood on your hands.

A Network of Success

There are more than 160 coalitions like ICARE around the nation. They belong to one of four main organizaing networks.

The industrial Areas Foundation in Chicago. (IAF) - 53 affiliate coalitions
The Gamaliel Foundation - 50 coalitions.
The Pacific Institute for Community Organization - 40 coalitions.
The Direct Action and Research Training Center in Miami (DART) - 19 coalitions.
source: ICARE Jacksonville, FL brochure 7/03.

ST. AUGUSTINE DIOCESAN CHURCHES SUPPORTING ICARE
Christ the King Catholic Church
Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Parish
Resurrection Catholic Church
Sacred Heart Catholic Church
St. Matthews Catholic Parish
St. Pius Catholic Parish

Catholics serving on ICARE Board of Directors:
Pat Corbe – St. Matthews Co-treasurer
Lathrop Murray – St. Matthews Member
Vickie Turner – Sacred Heart Member

Corporate Contributors
St. Vincent’s Medical Center

Denominational Supporters
The Catholic Diocese of St. Augustine
The Catholic Campaign for Human Development

Block’s full article, How To Shoot Yourself – One of the Most Potent Weapons Serving the Culture of Death Lies in the Pockets of Good Catholics may be found at Catholic Media Coalition.

The Troubling Business of Fading Away
Terri Schiavo may rightly be called the woman they want to make disappear. Instead, the 39 year-old disabled woman has become a cause celebre. What has made this possible is the mighty weight of two diametrically opposing forces, the tenacious, unyielding love of a family for a daughter, a sister, and the determined, ferocious pursuit of an estranged husband toward his own utilitarian ends.

The Schindler family, probably without realizing it, so caught up are they in preserving Terri’s life, are the personification of sacrificial love in an intact family that comprehends the dignity of life, while husband Michael, attorney George Felos and Judge Greer are inextricably linked to the sinister bonds of the culture of death. At least Felos, a notable right-to-die advocate, recognizes that fact. Schiavo, a man emotionally, physically and morally “divorced” from his wife, just asks “When is that bitch going to die?” (as quoted from the sworn testimony of R.N. Carla Iyer)

For Catholic pro-lifers, (in actuality no other type of Catholic is Catholic) Terri’s case is arguably the Roe vs Wade of the euthanasia movement. While Schindler vs Schiavo did not move to the U.S. Supreme Court, as it matriculates through the Florida courts it in being tried in the media, on the Internet and in the highly charged swirl of public opinion.

The fabricated notion that a “right to privacy” was found in the Constitution upon which abortion on demand was predicated, bears a striking resemblance to the hinge upon which Felos has hung his case, that Terri once told her husband she didn’t want to live sustained by artificial means.

Hearsay evidence of a 26-year-old woman, belatedly expressed, (only after a substantial malpractice monetary award) by a surrogate/guardian husband who denies his wife any rehabilitative measures, is now used as “privacy rights” to kill her. The talons of the death-culture that rake the baby from the womb now sever the disabled from their tenuous grasp on life in the name of privacy.

Danger ahead for the shuffleboard set

When imperceptible blindness hangs over a people, sometimes a bizarre event occurs that puts matters in a new light. The Schiavo drama is taking place in Tampa, Florida courtrooms, just across the bay from St. Petersburg, a city once characterized as the home of the “shuffle-board set,” nomenclature for so many elderly, transplanted senior citizens that trade snow for sand on Florida’s sunny shores.

Just such an event took place recently. St. Petersburg‘s citizenry were shocked to read in local papers that the alternative metal band, Hell on Earth, is planning an on stage suicide of a terminally ill fan to take place on October 4th. The purpose is to “raise awareness for dying with dignity.” The fan wishes to put an end to “back alley suicides.”

Apparently, this is not a hoax; Fox news anchor Rita Cosby carried the story twice on national television. In Florida, it is a second-degree felony to assist a suicide. Lead singer, Billy Tourtelot, who is a strong supporter of physician-assisted suicide, claims he’s not “assisting.” “This is about standing up for what you believe in...What I’m doing may be immoral, but it’s not illegal,” says Billy. St. Petersburg’s State Theater as well as another club have denied the band a venue. Tourtelot, nevertheless insists the show will go on. The St. Petersburg police are on the alert. Physician-assisted suicide is euthanasia. Euthanasia is illegal. Tell that to Felos who asserted on national TV, “We’re just carrying out Terri wishes,” —by starving her to death. How many elderly people with impatient relatives will become instantly vulnerable once Tourtelot and Felos’ macabre ideology becomes sacrosanct law? Tried in the media

If anyone doubts Florida is not the test state for making physician-assisted suicide legal and court-assisted euthanasia de rigeuer, he only needs to read Mary Jo Melone’s columns in the St. Petersburg Times.

Melone’s Sept. 25th column, Let Schiavo fade away blithely claims, “There is nothing unusual about denying medical treatment to the terminally ill who don’t want their lives prolonged. Withholding food and water is one way to accommodate them. Nor is there anything unusual about removing a feeding tube once doctors and families have decided that the patient isn’t going to get better. Tube removals happen about once a month at Tampa’s LifePath Hospice and Palliative Care…”

Mrs Schiavo, however, is not terminally ill and most people would refuse an accommodation to die by the method of starvation/dehydration. As Terri’s attorney Pat Anderson cryptically remarked, “Florida is no state to get sick in!”

Melone regularly quotes Dr. Robert Walker who teaches ethics at the University of South Florida. Walker agrees with the court’s decision and claims Terri would not suffer if her feeding tube is removed. “ She cannot perceive thirst or hunger. She doesn‘t have the brain structures necessary for that kind of perception, ” claims Walker. Melone regularly baits Catholics, pro-lifers, conservatives and the religious right. She cannot hold back her glee over the prospect of Atty. General Charlie Crist entering the case.

And when it comes to bad taste, Tampa Bay Online comes out on top for putting a poll on its Internet web site asking people to vote whether or not to remove Terri’s feeding tube! On Sept. 29, the St. Petersburg Times followed suit.

A columnist who openly advocates euthanasia, a physician/professor who lacks sensitivity and compassion and accuracy, a rock band leader who would turn a profit out of someone’s tragic circumstances, is this typical of Florida’s St. Petersburg and Tampa Bay? Three years ago, by order of the Roman Catholic bishop of the St. Petersburg Diocese, Eucharistic Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament was severely curtailed. Is it any wonder the “Gold Coast” has degenerated to this base level and the howls of hell are heard in the city.

TIME LINE

Aug. 26, 2002 Gov. Jeb Bush sends letter to Judge George Greer asking a guardian ad litem be appointed for Terri. Greer dismisses Bush’s letter.

Aug. 27: Florida Bishops issue statement.

Aug. 30: 24 pg. complaint filed with Federal Judge Richard A. Lazzara naming Schiavo, Morton Plant Hospital, FL Sun Coast Hospice and Attorney Felos as a non party co –conspirator in the denial of Terri Schiavo’s Constitutional rights. (5th and 14th.)

Sept: 2: Lazzara declines to intervene and grants additional time to file an amended case.

Sep. 11: Judge George Greer refuses Felos’ request that Terri’s starvation death begin at 5:00 p.m.

Sep. 17: Judge Greer faxes Pat Anderson, atty., the date for Terri’s death to begin: Wednesday, Sept. 15th, at 2:00 p.m. (The Feast of Teresa of Jesus).

Sept. 22: Verified amended complaint naming Michael Schiavo and his agents as defendants filed with Federal court regarding FL’s Chapter 765.

Sept. 23: FL Attorney General, Charles Crist, invited into the case by Judge Lazzara.

Oct. 6: Defendant has until Oct. 6 to reply, the plaintiff has until Oct. 8 to reply.

Oct. 10: A hearing will be conducted at 1:30 p.m., in the Tampa , FL U. S. courthouse. Further notes: State Atty. Gen. Crist cannot concede that a statute is unconstitutional. Therefore, entering the case could mean that Crist would be on the side of Michael Schiavo. The AG can, however, choose not to defend a statute. Over 56 organizations have registered in support of Terri Schiavo’s right to life. Emails in support of Terri to Gov. exceed 39,458.

[seemslikeadream]

235. I'm saving the pictures

before they disappear.

Thanks

:hi:

[Bozos for Bush]

237. Monitors are Dell, and there is a box from Fellowes

A box in this picture is from Fellowes, which I believe is an office supply store, probably like Staples:

Fellowes
products include computer and audio accessories, paper shredders, and storage and organization supplies.
Category: B2B > Office Supplies and Equipment
www.fellowes.com - 47k - Cached - More from this site

Picture with this showing:

[Carolab]

242. Also, the website says this:

Computer Lab Rebuild Project

During January, 2004 the K5 main computer lab located on the West Campus was completely rebuilt and rewired from the ground up. In conjunction with IT services, Dade County Public Schools Alternative Outreach Program, twenty new computers, a new server, switching equipment, high speed networked printer, and educational software, were installed and networked for lab use. Students are afforded the regular use of state of the art hardware and software to enhance their educational experience. Pictures of the rebuild project can be seen here.

Computer Technology

At Bay Point Schools computer hardware upgrades, maintenance, programming and setup is done on site!

Bay Point Schools computer labs are state of the art computer technology centers. We provide several labs to accommodate various academic needs. Below are some pictures of recently acquired equipment. This equipment will be prepared and upgraded in the lab for academic and administrative use throughout the school. Students have the opportunity to help build, program, upgrade, and setup computer units for specific functions on campus. This hands-on approach in conjunction with academic study in the lab provides a well rounded understanding and basis for student success in the ever expanding technology field.

[kk897]

259. Do we know who supplied the computers?

Having a hard time to keep up with this fascinating thread because of all the arguments, so maybe I missed something.

Also...

CyberNET was in the respected publication "VARBusiness"'s top companies for a while.

http://tinyurl.com/3l9rq

Also, check this out if you haven't already:

Watson's quoted extensively in this Chamber of Commerce/"Nation's Business" puff piece, which mentions his law firm, Morrison Mahoney, and lawyer, Nicholas Alexander.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1154/is_2_87/ai_53664169/print

further, he worked with Wyse technologies. Here's a snip from a press release:

"Wyse Gold Reseller CyberNET Engineering, assisted CON-WAY with its installation and configuration of thin clients."

http://www.wyse.com/about/pr/2001/0430_conway.htm

Con-Way is a huge logistics/trucking firm, a subsidiary of CNF Transportation. I'm gonna go to bed now, but you can take it from there.

[trudyco]

245. Please give recap of ties?

Hello, I'm new. I've finally figured out how to post. This thread has been going on long. Can you explain again how Chinavest fits in, and what is ICARE or ACORN - how is that significant?

Also, why is google useless in finding this stuff?

And another ? - has anybody figured out who "owns" the registration database and poll signature books for each state. Is this something we have public access to? How do they track who voted by provisional ballot or absentee ballot?

It seems to be the best fraud would be to doctor the registration database and then stuff some ballots - wouldn't be detected by hand counting. But then the FLorida case sounds like hacking of the tabulation. Hack the evotes and ballot stuff the optical scanned votes?

Thanks,
Trudy in CO

[nolabels]

249. There was this article

This guy must of been some interloper of some kind


CyberNET CEO was 'true con man'
Thursday, November 25, 2004
By Barton Deiters and Ken Kolker
The Grand Rapids Press
(snip)
"I'm surprised he had the courage to kill himself," said Elaine VanSuilichem, Watson's former executive assistant.

VanSuilichem said she worked for the Internet-based technology company from the luxurious offices at a rehabilitated four-story building at 25 S. Division Ave.

Her duties included making sure Watson's shades were drawn at precisely 8:57 a.m., preparing him iced tea at predetermined times throughout the day and picking up his prescriptions for arthritis, depression and high blood pressure.

She said she also helped him dodge creditors, put off paying for services and juggling finances with a virtual playing deck of credit cards.

Watson lived atop a hill in a gated neighborhood of huge homes hidden among oak trees, overlooking the Grand River valley. Two small horse sculptures decorate the front yard.
(snip)
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1101399309189380.xml

[Carl Brennan]

238. Kick

[nolabels]

241. Of all the things I thought were weak in Jeff Fisher's story..........

The kids at the room and board rehab doing the input for the hacks had to be it. It would be seem to me believing in the Illuminati would be easier than that. Maybe this or that, but the kids in Rehab it just don't sound logistically possible :shrug:

So many of the other parts of the story check out, but better to be sure than.........

Color me skeptical about 8.2 million of extra voters for Bush

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

253. OK! Dr. Cole, who started ICARE Baypoint--linked to Moonies

Mary Louise Cole, CEO Baypoint Schools

She is involved with Service for Peace,

http://www.serviceforpeace.org/Testimony.htm

which is a branch of the Unification Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_For_Peace

What does THAT tell you?

We also have this:

http://fornits.com/coolboard/article-79393519708789.htm

Drugscreen.org and DFAF Growing Together

Awhile back, someone asked about a company called Drug Free America, Inc. of WPB Florida running a website to distribute drug screening kits to parents.

Drug Free America, Inc. Some interesting questions and answers there. I might just pick one up to find out what info they're passing out with tem. Note the question about law enforcement being the point of distribution and the thin answer? (translation: no one else is brainwashed enough to think this is a really good idea once they get more than a toe into it, but we're always recruiting...)

Note also near the bottom, "Center for Information and Crisis Services?" Welcome To The Center (Jerod????)

The "Where to turn online" link leads to another server which lists Growing Together as a major program, along with Faith Farm and one located in the Palm Beach County Stockade.

So, if the question was how might Drug Free America, Inc. be related to Drug Free American Foundation, other than mentality, this is one answer. I'm guessing that Mr. Douglas Smith (Admin contact for drugscreen.org) is probably a Program parent. And I have another question. How many of the programs refered to in that list are also using the Program?

(Note: DFAF is the "new" name for the Straight Foundation)

[Alizaryn]

260. Straight Foundation

The Semblers (Straight Foundation) are great supporters of the republicans & George and Jeb Bush. You might find these links of an interest:

http://thestraights.com/people/straight-officials/board/sembler/sembler-family-contributions.htm



http://www.opensecrets.org/bush/ambassadors/sembler.asp


This one is plain and simply SCAREY:
http://thestraights.com/gop.htm

[Carolab]

262. My point in the above WAS

I wonder whether there is any connection between the CyberNET Group and the Drugscreen.org website. They hosted websites. And we know that CyberNET has some kind of connection to Amway/Quixtar/Alticor (they were clients, as well as also being in Ada, Michigan). We also know that the Baypoint Schools is associated with Semlers and also with the Unification Church (Rev. Moon). The DeVoses and Van Andels of Amway/Quixtar/Alticor are "connected" themselves with the Heritage Foundation and with the right-wing radical Christian movement as well as being extremely heavy hitters in the Republican party. DeVos himself is at the head of the Council for National Policy.

So I am trying to form a stronger bond between the Baypoint Schools and CyberNET and the Christian/Moonie movement and the Republican party and in particular Jeb Bush (DeVos is very active in Orlando through ownership of the Orlando Magic). Since there was a website designer David A. Oakley in Grand Rapids, Michigan that has a portfolio with CyberNET, Amway, Grand Rapids Chamber of Commerce, Orlando Website Developers, AND a 9/11 Ground Zero website I think he is also somehow connected to CyberNET and the DeVoses in some way.

So does this constitute a line between CyberNET Group and the Baypoint Schools directly? And if so, what is the nature of that connection? Was Barton Watson keeping databases and servers and hosting connections that had something to do with the purported hacking operation at the Baypoint Schools that Fisher mentions? The fact that the Baypoint Schools main computer lab just got a shitload of new equipment and was rebuilt in January 2004 seems very suspicious to me. One of the equipment photos that Fisher showed on his website is also one of the Baypoint Schools lab photos. What was Fisher trying to say with this photo? It seems to be an internet connection device of some sort. Was it used to hack the election?

[brindis_desala]

258. neil bush made a killing on kopin corp/jvc deal

(MIT based) Kopin Corp. developed wireless cellphone interface for internet. (Kopin also got contract for army's future warrior program)
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994584
http://www.g4techtv.com/screensavers/features/46341/Evoting_Systems_at_the_Center_of_Controversy.html
http://www.access-us-inc.com/news_archives/news_2000/10232000.html
Could be mere coincidence but worth remembering.

[IFeelLikeArock]

261. Wasn't Cybernet Systems in the movie with Sandra Bullock?

Or maybe it was Cyberdyne. They all sound alike to me.

[Carolab]

263. These last two posts are completely extraneous

Please carry on with MY post above them if you have any ideas.

Thanks.

[Emit]

265. Hello again, from a newbie

Has anyone considered e-mailing or calling Jeff Fisher about all of this CyberNET stuff to clarify which CyberNET he's referring to and whether it has anything to do with the FBI raid and subsequent suicide? He seems pretty accessible and open to discussion. I initially caught all of this when it started up at Black Box Voting, and it seems no one mentioned CyberNET until the FBI raid and/or when Hale and Auditors started posting at Black Box (I actually do not know which came first). I never noticed anything on Fisher's website about CyberNET until I noticed in one of the comments on this thread here that Fisher mentioned "CyberNET group" in an updated letter at his website. I may have missed something on his site previously about it. Did he mention CyberNET prior to the FBI raid? Anyway, all this back and forth confusion about CyberNET(s), and attempting to connect the dots, and assuming connections when there are none-- yes, I have been following this with frustration too, and assumed in some cases that the person posting (i.e., Auditors, Activisms, etc.) might just be a really poor reader or researcher because there just wasn't the connection that was alleged when I read their posts. Anyway, again for what it's worth, maybe Fisher can shed some light and clear up some confusion. You know what's funny, too, is that now when one starts searching for CyberNET stuff, you get all of these links to DU, CommonGroundCommonSense, BBV, etc. with references to each other! It's like your chasing you're own tail, literally. And the link that's been there first and foremost is from 11/17 at BBV with Hale/Money/Auditors that seems to have started it all and it just keeps getting recycled! If there wasn't a link before with all of this, there is now.

[seemslikeadream]

266. TO ALL OF YOU I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THANKS SO MUCH

Thanks for being here
Thanks for standing by each other
Thanks for your committement to the truth
Thanks for your courage
Thanks for giving me the courage in the face of vicious attacks
Thanks for all the kind words of encouragement I recieved

and to all the newbies here I am personally sadden by the way you were repeatedly accused of being freepers and treated so badly. That is not the spirit of DemocraticUnderground. I want to take this opprotunity to welcome you all here, hope you will stay, and have forgiveness

We're all just looking for TRUTH TO POWER



Alice's Restaurant

This song is called Alice's Restaurant, and it's about Alice, and the
restaurant, but Alice's Restaurant is not the name of the restaurant,
that's just the name of the song, and that's why I called the song Alice's
Restaurant.

You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant
You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant
Walk right in it's around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant

Now it all started two Thanksgivings ago, was on - two years ago on
Thanksgiving, when my friend and I went up to visit Alice at the
restaurant, but Alice doesn't live in the restaurant, she lives in the
church nearby the restaurant, in the bell-tower, with her husband Ray and
Fasha the dog. And livin' in the bell tower like that, they got a lot of
room downstairs where the pews used to be in. Havin' all that room,
seein' as how they took out all the pews, they decided that they didn't
have to take out their garbage for a long time.

We got up there, we found all the garbage in there, and we decided it'd be
a friendly gesture for us to take the garbage down to the city dump. So
we took the half a ton of garbage, put it in the back of a red VW
microbus, took shovels and rakes and implements of destruction and headed
on toward the city dump.

Well we got there and there was a big sign and a chain across across the
dump saying, "Closed on Thanksgiving." And we had never heard of a dump
closed on Thanksgiving before, and with tears in our eyes we drove off
into the sunset looking for another place to put the garbage.

We didn't find one. Until we came to a side road, and off the side of the
side road there was another fifteen foot cliff and at the bottom of the
cliff there was another pile of garbage. And we decided that one big pile
is better than two little piles, and rather than bring that one up we
decided to throw our's down.

That's what we did, and drove back to the church, had a thanksgiving
dinner that couldn't be beat, went to sleep and didn't get up until the
next morning, when we got a phone call from officer Obie. He said, "Kid,
we found your name on an envelope at the bottom of a half a ton of
garbage, and just wanted to know if you had any information about it." And
I said, "Yes, sir, Officer Obie, I cannot tell a lie, I put that envelope
under that garbage."

After speaking to Obie for about fourty-five minutes on the telephone we
finally arrived at the truth of the matter and said that we had to go down
and pick up the garbage, and also had to go down and speak to him at the
police officer's station. So we got in the red VW microbus with the
shovels and rakes and implements of destruction and headed on toward the
police officer's station.

Now friends, there was only one or two things that Obie coulda done at
the police station, and the first was he could have given us a medal for
being so brave and honest on the telephone, which wasn't very likely, and
we didn't expect it, and the other thing was he could have bawled us out
and told us never to be see driving garbage around the vicinity again,
which is what we expected, but when we got to the police officer's station
there was a third possibility that we hadn't even counted upon, and we was
both immediately arrested. Handcuffed. And I said "Obie, I don't think I
can pick up the garbage with these handcuffs on." He said, "Shut up, kid.
Get in the back of the patrol car."

And that's what we did, sat in the back of the patrol car and drove to the
quote Scene of the Crime unquote. I want tell you about the town of
Stockbridge, Massachusets, where this happened here, they got three stop
signs, two police officers, and one police car, but when we got to the
Scene of the Crime there was five police officers and three police cars,
being the biggest crime of the last fifty years, and everybody wanted to
get in the newspaper story about it. And they was using up all kinds of
cop equipment that they had hanging around the police officer's station.
They was taking plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints, and
they took twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each
one was to be used as evidence against us. Took pictures of the approach,
the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to
mention the aerial photography.

After the ordeal, we went back to the jail. Obie said he was going to put
us in the cell. Said, "Kid, I'm going to put you in the cell, I want your
wallet and your belt." And I said, "Obie, I can understand you wanting my
wallet so I don't have any money to spend in the cell, but what do you
want my belt for?" And he said, "Kid, we don't want any hangings." I
said, "Obie, did you think I was going to hang myself for littering?"
Obie said he was making sure, and friends Obie was, cause he took out the
toilet seat so I couldn't hit myself over the head and drown, and he took
out the toilet paper so I couldn't bend the bars roll out the - roll the
toilet paper out the window, slide down the roll and have an escape. Obie
was making sure, and it was about four or five hours later that Alice
(remember Alice? It's a song about Alice), Alice came by and with a few
nasty words to Obie on the side, bailed us out of jail, and we went back
to the church, had a another thanksgiving dinner that couldn't be beat,
and didn't get up until the next morning, when we all had to go to court.

We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
of each one, sat down. Man came in said, "All rise." We all stood up,
and Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and he
sat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
and a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.
And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,
'cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American
blind justice, and there wasn't nothing he could do about it, and the
judge wasn't going to look at the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each
one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us. And
we was fined $50 and had to pick up the garbage in the snow, but thats not
what I came to tell you about.

Came to talk about the draft.

They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street,
where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected,
neglected and selected. I went down to get my physical examination one
day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so
I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning. `Cause I wanted to
look like the all-American kid from New York City, man I wanted, I wanted
to feel like the all-, I wanted to be the all American kid from New York,
and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and all
kinds o' mean nasty ugly things. And I waked in and sat down and they gave
me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

Didn't feel too good about it.

Proceeded on down the hall gettin more injections, inspections,
detections, neglections and all kinds of stuff that they was doin' to me
at the thing there, and I was there for two hours, three hours, four
hours, I was there for a long time going through all kinds of mean nasty
ugly things and I was just having a tough time there, and they was
inspecting, injecting every single part of me, and they was leaving no
part untouched. Proceeded through, and when I finally came to the see the
last man, I walked in, walked in sat down after a whole big thing there,
and I walked up and said, "What do you want?" He said, "Kid, we only got
one question. Have you ever been arrested?"

And I proceeded to tell him the story of the Alice's Restaurant Massacre,
with full orchestration and five part harmony and stuff like that and all
the phenome... - and he stopped me right there and said, "Kid, did you ever
go to court?"

And I proceeded to tell him the story of the twenty seven eight-by-ten
colour glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on
the back of each one, and he stopped me right there and said, "Kid, I want
you to go and sit down on that bench that says Group W .... NOW kid!!"

And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's
where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly
looking people on the bench there. Mother rapers. Father stabbers. Father
rapers! Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me! And
they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the
bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest
father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly
'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me
and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay
$50 and pick up the garbage." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"
And I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
bench. And everything was fine, we was smoking cigarettes and all kinds of
things, until the Sargeant came over, had some paper in his hand, held it
up and said.

"Kids, this-piece-of-paper's-got-47-words-37-sentences-58-words-we-wanna-
know-details-of-the-crime-time-of-the-crime-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-
you-gotta-say-pertaining-to-and-about-the-crime-I-want-to-know-arresting-
officer's-name-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-you-gotta-say", and talked for
forty-five minutes and nobody understood a word that he said, but we had
fun filling out the forms and playing with the pencils on the bench there,
and I filled out the massacre with the four part harmony, and wrote it
down there, just like it was, and everything was fine and I put down the
pencil, and I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the
other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on
the other side, in parentheses, capital letters, quotated, read the
following words:

("KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?")

I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to
ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm
sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench
'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women,
kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug." He looked at me and
said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints
off to Washington."

And friends, somewhere in Washington enshrined in some little folder, is a
study in black and white of my fingerprints. And the only reason I'm
singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar
situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a
situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into
the shrink wherever you are ,just walk in say "Shrink, You can get
anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.". And walk out. You know, if
one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and
they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them.
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in
singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an
organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and
walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

And that's what it is , the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and
all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the
guitar.

With feeling. So we'll wait for it to come around on the guitar, here and
sing it when it does. Here it comes.

You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Walk right in it's around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant

That was horrible. If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
I've been singing this song now for twenty five minutes. I could sing it
for another twenty five minutes. I'm not proud... or tired.

So we'll wait till it comes around again, and this time with four part
harmony and feeling.

We're just waitin' for it to come around is what we're doing.

All right now.

You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Excepting Alice
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Walk right in it's around the back
Just a half a mile from the railroad track
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant

Da da da da da da da dum
At Alice's Restaurant
--- Arlo Guthrie

:hi: seemslikeadream

[trudyco]

267. Recap?

So we have a tentative link to one of the other Cybernets - the Cybernet Ventures adult verification software for porn sights is partly owned by Chinavest. Correct? And Chinavest was also an investor to Halcyon (which was merged into CyberNet of CEO killed fame - BTW any autopsy? When did he die? Seems wierd the neighbors slept through it, huh?). CyberNET is associated with the Amway folks although only tentatively right now (cybernet hosted some of their businesses). The late CEO was also an ex-con who committed financial fraud (he likes money). Where did he serve? Was it Canada?

A Dr Cole is founder of ICARE which is precurser to Baypoint schools. Dr Cole is associated with the Moonies. Baypoint is also associated with the Semlers/straight schools. Brainwashing type juvenile boarding schools. Supposedly Piotr Bass's son was committed to it or one of the schools and Mr Fisher helped him get his son out. Piotr Bass worked at the Baypoint? school even though he was way over qualified to teach voc-tech or high school programming classes. Piotr Bass also worked in the past in Michigan which is where CyberNET was based. Mr. Fisher claims that Mr Bass is protecting a Lawyer, Mr Klock who defended Bush Jr in 2000 elections when it went to the Supreme court. Somehow Mr Klock also helped Mr Bass (how?). Mr Klock supposedly knows something about vote hacking.

ICARE is funded partially by the Catholic church, Unions and other moderate to liberal groups who may not realize where their money is going? What is the significance of IAF and ACORN, if any?


THe moonies, Semlers and Amway are all Bush family supporters. Aren't they part of some private Republican group that was included in a nice diagram somebody did here?


Volusia Florida - bbv caught them red handed fudging the poll tapes. Also found a screen shot of the tabulator that showed it had two network drives when supposedly it was safe because it was not wired to be networked. Signs of remote access. So to hack the vote on a tabulator you need somebody with access to the machine to configure it, somebody remote to access it, then somebody local to reconfigure it? A hand recount would catch this, wouldn't it?

Any of this tie in with the Madsen article?

Thanks, folks, I don't know where you are getting this but it sure is interesting and scary at the same time.

Trudyco

[IFeelLikeArock]

268. where do you see that Cybernet Ventures is part owned by Chinavest?

i must have missed that part

[seemslikeadream]

269. maybe from here

Think prevention


Stryon (www.stryon.com ) has merged with Halcyon Software. The new company will focus on developing software that will help businesses move their older software, called legacy software, to newer operating environments. The merged company, retaining the name Stryon, is closely affiliated with The CyberNET Group, a global systems integration firm with operations throughout North America, Europe, South Africa, Asia, and Australia. CyberNET CEO Barton Watson comments, "The merger with Halcyon brings tremendous capabilities to Stryon" as it "can now provide a scope of application services never before available to middle market companies and enterprise accounts." Halcyon is a portfolio company of ChinaVest.(ChinaVest is one of the oldest and largest private equity firms exclusively targeting the rapidly growing Greater China market; China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. Since 1985, it has raised more than US$300 million and developed a balanced portfolio of more than 40 companies.)

http://www.halcyonsoft.com/company.asp?s=4

[seemslikeadream]

270. Ooops! that link doesn't seem to be working - here's another

sometimes that happens that's why it's a good idea to post information before it gets deleted, lost. At least we'll have a record of it to research

33. Halcyon Software merges with Stryon; creates leader in legacy application migration software and services

Stryon press release

18 Jun 02

For full release, see www.stryon.com/company.asp?s=4

Stryon (www.stryon.com) has merged with Halcyon Software. The new company will focus on developing software that will help businesses move their older software, called legacy software, to newer operating environments. The merged company, retaining the name Stryon, is closely affiliated with The CyberNET Group, a global systems integration firm with operations

throughout North America, Europe, South Africa, Asia, and Australia. CyberNET CEO Barton Watson comments, "The merger with Halcyon brings tremendous capabilities to Stryon" as it "can now provide a scope of application services never before available to middle market companies and enterprise accounts." Halcyon is a portfolio company of ChinaVest.

return to top of Briefs -- return to top of this page -- return to globalprovince.com

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:4a5x0A1eR44J:www.globalprovince.com/chinavestdiary.htm+Stryon+(www.stryon.com+)+has+merged+with+Halcyon+Software.&hl=en

[IFeelLikeArock]

271. I don't understand

ok so your post talks about cybernet group, but what about cybernet ventures? Isn't this exactly what that crazy guy kept warning about?

[Carolab]

272. Kick

for input

[seemslikeadream]

273. Just passing on the information I had IFeelLikeArock

I said maybe it was in one of those links.

[Carolab]

277. Actually, that info (Chinavest) is on the BBV forum, along with THIS

"Contribute to the Greg Palast investigation crew"

AUTHORS NOTE: The contents of this message is not on behalf of any company, affiliate, or organization in general. The contents of this message are optional by the viewer and thus, no one is required to give any money at all towards the effort.


We have raising suspicions that the 5 Star Trust Bank has been involved in a crime tied to the corporation CyberNet for a number of years. The scheme seems to involve voting company officials, and their employees, involved on a part time basis with some seedy business dealings and stock trading.

Therein, with the evidence our team has collected and provided we have called upon Greg Palast the investigative reporter of http://www.gregpalast.com to launch an investigation into the bank and its ties to Accenture Incorporated, a for profit database design creator for all citizens voting records.

We would like to see those who are interested in bringing the ones responsible for this crime, to justice, to please donate what they can at the following link.

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr

If you are not interested in the criminal side of this incident and would prefer to put your efforts towards recounts, the Greens Page is over on this side.

On Edit: I found this on the net related to the above:

Speaking of deception operations: Do you remember the mysterious e-mailer who tried to raise money on behalf of Madsen and Greg Palast? (The idea was to put a PayPal link on this blog.) This "fundraiser" turns out to be unknown to Madsen. He confirmed that neither he nor Palast operates in this fashion -- therefore, "this guy is up to something."

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/

[AnIndependentTexan]

274. If the MSM actually covered stuff we wouldn't have to look for truth

Because they don't do their job we are left confused about everything. That is why we have to search for the truth in order to know what the truth is.

[Carl Brennan]

275. Yea, but Jeez its gotta be cohesive, how many times

I gotta say it.

Just kidding you know. }(

[loritooker]

295. this newbie is laying low until

things settle down. I don't blame people for being suspicious of so many newbies. But it is sad. Anyway, I just enjoy reading-you folks are such an inspiration and I found DU just when I thought I was losing my marbles! Thanks for the welcome.

[Alizaryn]

276. Cybernet vs Cybernet Ventures

I have looked and looked and looked and cannot find ANY tie between Cybernet Group or Barton Watson and Cybernet Ventures, have you? IMO we need to stop speaking as if they are one and the same or even related until we can prove it.

Is there a way to get a hold of whoever wrote the letter and get confirmation of the company name? Maybe they confused it?

[Carolab]

278. Bank ties connecting CyberNET, Ohio, and Five Star Bank

See my post #277 above that covers how the forum at BBV is linking or trying to link Five Star Trust to CyberNET.

I had another idea: the fraud charges against CyberNET are brought by CharterOne Bank. This bank was FORMERLY First Federal of Michigan. It is now headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio!

http://www.financial-portal.com/banks_US_Ohio.html

What do you make of that--what with all of the Ohio election problems and Blackwell's personal connections to the Heritage Foundation, Freemasonry (DEVOS!) etc. PLUS he was the Mayor of Cincinnati and he was the Ohio State Treasurer! (Oh, and SHUDDER--I found out Jesse Jackson is also a Freemason.)

http://www.nndb.com/people/209/000053050/


State Secretary of State Ohio, 1999-
State Treasurer Ohio, 1994-98
Mayor Cincinnati, 1980
Council on Foreign Relations
Freemasonry
The Heritage Foundation Senior Fellow
Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs Advisory Board
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Life Member
Washington Legal Foundation National Board of Advisors
Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity

[seemslikeadream]

279. Just a thought but watch for Riggs Bank Carolab

and thanks for this.

[seemslikeadream]

280. Bush family connections RIGGS BANK

Fed Likely To Say No To Riggs Payments
Sources familiar with the situation, who spoke on condition of anonymity because a supervisory action by the Fed is involved, said the agency acted out of an abundance of caution to preserve Riggs's cash. Despite its large capital cushion, Riggs lost $40.5 million in the first nine months of the year, largely because of expenses associated with ongoing investigations into the company and the costs associated with exiting its international and embassy banking businesses.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61236-2004Nov18.html

Bank with close ties to Bush administration engulfed in scandal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=775366
WaPo: Allbritton Loses Riggs Bank (front page, day 3)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=691609
9/11 relatives sue bank in terror attacks - Riggs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=826447
Riggs-PNC deal under strainSpanish judge recommends charges against Riggs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=836036
Bush family connections
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=836046
Riggs Probe Finds Evidence Of Crimes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=798145
WaPo: Criminal Probe of Riggs Bank Underway
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=766616
Bank Investigated for Pinochet's Fraud
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=712043
Dictator sues British 'coup plotters'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=692616

[Carl Brennan]

281. Weird versions of Five Star

Star Banc Corp.
Starbank and Firstar are now U.S. Bank
About U.S. Bancorp
U.S. Bancorp (NYSE: USB), with assets in excess of $182 billion, is the 8th largest financial services holding company in the United States. We operate over 2,000 banking offices and more than 4,500 ATMs in 24 states, and provide a comprehensive line of banking, brokerage, insurance, investment, mortgage, trust and payment services products to consumers, businesses and institutions.
U.S. Bancorp is home of the Five Star Service Guarantee, which assures customers of certain key banking benefits and services or customers will be paid for their inconvenience. U.S. Bancorp is the parent company of U.S. Bank.

Five Star Trust. The Bank Madsen cites as linked to Saudi is a strange name for a bank since there is also a rating system with "five star" being the top.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112504Madsen/112504madsen.html

The money to rig the election in favor of Bush reportedly came from an entity called Five Star Trust, largely based in Houston but a worldwide entity that is directly tied to the Saudi Royal Family. Five Star Trust was termed "a well-protected vehicle" that has been used to support both Bush and Osama bin Laden in the US and around the world.

[Carolab]

282. Hmm. Wonder if

they are in any way connected to Carlyle?

I found fivestarbank.com but it is BLANK!

I found this online for www.fivestarbank.org (of Natomas, a community in/near Sacramento, CA)

WHOIS information for fivestarbank.org:



Domain name you searched for is not registered through Melbourne IT.
Following is the information we gathered for fivestarbank.org

------
NOTICE: Access to .ORG WHOIS information is provided to assist persons in
determining the contents of a domain name registration record in the PIR
registry database. The data in this record is provided by Public Interest Registry
for informational purposes only, and PIR does not guarantee its
accuracy. This service is intended only for query-based access. You agree
that you will use this data only for lawful purposes and that, under no
circumstances will you use this data to: (a) allow, enable, or otherwise
support the transmission by e-mail, telephone, or facsimile of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations to entities other than
the data recipient's own existing customers; or (b) enable high volume,
automated, electronic processes that send queries or data to the systems of
Registry Operator or any ICANN-Accredited Registrar, except as reasonably
necessary to register domain names or modify existing registrations. All
rights reserved. PIR reserves the right to modify these terms at any
time. By submitting this query, you agree to abide by this policy.

Domain ID:D103939709-LROR
Domain Name:FIVESTARBANK.ORG
Created On:04-Feb-2004 23:21:30 UTC
Last Updated On:05-Apr-2004 03:55:38 UTC
Expiration Date:04-Feb-2009 23:21:30 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Network Solutions LLC (R63-LROR)
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:35685714-NSIV
Registrant Name:Five Star Bancorp
Registrant Organization:
Registrant Street1:ATTN insert domainname here
Registrant Street2:care of Network Solutions
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Herndon
Registrant State/Province:VA
Registrant Postal Code:20172
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:[phone]
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:[e-mail]
Admin ID:35862352-NSIV
Admin Name:Bill Parcell
Admin Organization:
Admin Street1:ATTN insert domainname here
Admin Street2:care of Network Solutions
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Herndon
Admin State/Province:VA
Admin Postal Code:20172
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:[phone]
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:[e-mail]
Tech ID:5358805-NSI
Tech Name:Network Solutions, LLC.
Tech Organization:Network Solutions, LLC.
Tech Street1:13200 Woodland Park Drive
Tech Street2:
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Herndon
Tech State/Province:VA
Tech Postal Code:20171-3025
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:[phone]
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:[phone]
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:[e-mail]
Name Server:NS2.SUREWEST.NET
Name Server:NS1.SUREWEST.NET
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:

Here's a newspaper article about the Natomas Bank--apparently the 2nd Five Star Bank to open--the first was in Rocklin:

http://sacramento.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2003/12/01/story4.html

[Name removed]

283. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlueDog2u]

284. Eowyn, thanks for sticking up for yourself

In such an open and thoughtful manner.

Don't let the bastards grind you down. Carolab and others have carried the ball forward. We will either find out that there is more to this Cybernet story than coincidence, or we will move on to other things. Which is the best option is still not clear. There seem to be many reasons for thinking the Cybernet Group (not Cybernet Ventures, so far as anyone can demonstrate so far....) is a significant player in the contemporary political scene, perhaps even tied in, as Jeff Fisher claims, to electoral fraud.

And congratulations for having the courage to inject a voice of sanity over in freeperville.

[Carolab]

285. Speaking of which...here's something on Five Star Trust

http://www.kycnews.com/story_library.asp

But I don't have a subscription to this service, KYC News.

In another search for FITX Group Limited and Five Star Trust, I came across the message linked below in siliconnews.com that references www.offshorebusiness.com (part of the KYC subscription service) and this list includes Five Star Trust and in parentheses says it is associated with an "illegal bank".

http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=13817359

[eowyn_of_rohan]

288. Your support means the world!

He wounded me, and distracted me from the cause, but with encouragement from people like you, I am rarin' to go.

[Carl Brennan]

289. That is the way fascisti operate. They are nasty as hell. nt

[eowyn_of_rohan]

290. Thank you CarlBrennan

God Bless you, and all of us. I am , I guess too "nice" , so that those types ALWAYS beat me. I just don't understand their ways.

[Carl Brennan]

291. I p-mailed you friend.

[BlueDog2u]

292. He seems to be very good at doing that to people.

You aren't the only one. But we're back on track! Go Carolab, go team!

[seemslikeadream]

286. eowyn_of_rohan read this please

elad ADMIN (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-27-04 07:55 PM
Response to Original message

1. The thread was deleted for two reasons

1) The person who started the thread was banned,
2) The thread violated multiple rules of DU

My only regret is that we didn't get to it sooner and it was allowed to continue for so long.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x25788

You don't have to explain anything to me.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

287. Dear seemslikeadream

Your support means the world. Onward and upward. Now maybe I can get back to WORKING on this!

[Name removed]

293. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carl Brennan]

294. And you have not one source to back up your up close and

personal claims, zip!

Plus you did a little false attribution there friend. Seemslikeadream did not say the things you put in quotes. That is from other material. :eyes:

[AnIndependentTexan]

296. amazing how whenever that happens they have 1 post

and CyberNet's is always the first thing they post about to debunk.

[Carl Brennan]

333. Glad to see that post deleted.

The freeps are going to have to be a little more clever than that.

[Carolab]

297. I FOUND GUTIERREZ!!! He's Bush's new Secretary of COMMERCE!!

http://uk.fc.yahoo.com/ph/us_election.html

President Bush pats Carlos Gutierrez, chief executive officer of the Kellogg Co., right, on the arm, as they leave after Bush announced Gutierrez as h (Associated Press photographs) Mon 29 Nov, 06:14 PM

Zoom
President Bush, left, announces that he has chosen Carlos Gutierrez, chief executive officer of the Kellogg Co., right, to be secretary of Commerce, M (Associated Press photographs) Mon 29 Nov, 04:46 PM

Zoom
Carlos Gutierrez, chief executive officer of the Kellogg Co., right, has been chosen by President Bush to be secretary of Commerce, Monday, Nov. 29, 2 (Associated Press photographs)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mon 29 Nov, 04:46 PM

Zoom
President Bush and Carlos Gutierrez, chief executive officer of the Kellogg Co., left, leave after Bush annonunced Gutierrez was his choice to be secr (Associated Press photographs)

Full article about Gutierrez:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041129/D86LL8KO0.html

*********

Do you suppose there is any connection to Armando Gutierrez, who was involved with the Elian Gonzales case as a family spokesman? Armando worked for the judge who ruled in Elian's favor:

http://www.polkonline.com/stories/011100/sta_cuban-boy.shtml

And you're not gonna believe this, BUT guess where Armando Junior ended up: head of the FLORIDA COLLEGE REPUBLICANS! And guess what? He's got a background in COMPUTERS and POLITICAL SCIENCE and is studying law.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/29/60400.shtml

Armando Gutierrez Jr, founded the University of Miami College Republicans in Spring 2002. A Computer Science and Political Science Student, Gutierrez created the infastructure necessary to create a 250 member organization in just one semester.

Gutierrez, then when onto become Co-Chairman of the Florida College Republicans. Which governs just over 26 College Republican Chapters in the State of Florida. With his Co-Chair (Bryan Stewart), FL Cr's overall membership in the state increased 30% in just one year. Overall involvment was at an all time high for the State of Florida's College Republicans.

Armando Gutierrez Jr, Graduated in Spring 2003 from the University of Miami with a Bachelor of Arts with focus in English and Political Science, and still remains active in College Republican school and national activities. He is currently working on his Master's in Public Administration, and plans on attending law school.

If you would like to contact
Armando Gutierrez Jr
please email him: [e-mail]
phone: [phone]

http://www.flcr.org/armandogutierrezjr.html

Oh, and you'll like this: One of the lawyers that represented little Elian's parents? Manny Diaz? Ended up running against Janet Reno, in what I believe I read in one of the "election fraud stories" turned out later to be probably a fixed race--though Reno never challenged it.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200111\POL20011109d.html

Eez interesting, no?

[Carolab]

299. Here's the Manny Diez link (it's broken above)

http://www.cnsnews.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getdoc&DocId=59049&Index=C%3a%5cInetpub%5cCns%5cmainsearch%5cEntireSite&HitCount=2&hits=60+61+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cInetpub%5cCns%5cMainSearch%5cSearch%5fform%2ehtml

[eowyn_of_rohan]

304. AWESOME work

You are a wizard! I started looking into some of what you mentioned but got sidetracked onto something else, which I will develop a bit further before posting!

[kk897]

334. the guy in the Fisher letter is Alan Guiterrez

and Guiterrez is an awfully common Latino name.

I'm working on it, but this thread is AWFULLY hard to follow now. I think I"m going to put together a file with the relevent posts separated out from the argument posts. I think there will be some very interesting connections here...

[Carolab]

348. The spelling may be off

Gutierrez is also very common.

And Armando is kind of close to Alan--both are A's. Perhaps the information in Fisher's letter is not exact but close. I find the Gutierrez connection a distinct possibility myself.

[Carolab]

298. AND for the cherry on top--GORE

In the end, the Gonzales case was reported to have cost not only Reno in 2002 but it was reported to have cost Gore the Florida vote in 2000:

Miami's Cuban Americans May Get The Last Word

By Peter Dale Scott

Date: 12-04-00
The Clinton administration willingness to defy Miami's Cuban-American community in the case of Elian Gonzales was widely seen as a sign that the community had lost its political muscle. But the decision to stop recounting votes in Miami-Dade suggests that it's the Cuban Americans who are getting the last word. PNS correspondent Peter Dale Scott is author of Deep Politics and the Death of JFK and co-author of Cocaine Politics. Scott's website is

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott.

The Clinton administration's hard-nosed action in returning six-year-old Elian Gonzales to his family in Cuba was widely interpreted as a sign that Miami's Cuban American community was losing its political clout.

But in fact bitterness over that action may have cost Al Gore the presidency -- even though he broke with the administration over the decision to let Elian return home.

The Miami-Dade refusal to recount votes can certainly be seen as one more blow in the fight over Elian that supposedly ended last spring.

Miami Mayor Alex Penelas led the Cuban American revolt against the Justice Department last spring. Elections supervisor David Leahy of the Miami-Dade Canvassing Board, who voted to stop the recount, works for Mr. Penelas.

The Canvassing Board's two other members, Lawrence King and Myriam Lehr, who joined in the vote, are both elected county judges who must be sensitive to the opinions of their Cuban American electorate.

Both judges relied on Armando Gutierrez, a political consultant. Gutierrez, who was hired to run Judge King's campaign, became notorious as the pro bono spokesman for the Miami family of Elian Gonzales. (As a result, King's father -- federal judge James L. King -- recused himself from hearing the Elian Gonzales case.)

Gore campaign officials claim Penelas had promised, in a telephone call, to issue a statement calling for the recount to resume. Instead Mr. Penelas' statement said only that he could not affect the board's decisions.

Key Democrats now suggest the mayor double-crossed them. In the wake of rumors and accusations about the recount decision, the mayor released his phone records to show that he has recently made frequent calls to both key Democrats and key Republicans in Washington.

Before the Elian fiasco, Penelas had been proposed as a leading Democratic challenger for Florida governor, even as a possible running mate for Gore. Now one of the mayor's associates has said that Penelas is thinking seriously of running for Congress as a Republican.

Penelas has denied influencing the Canvassing Board as well as published reports that he is about to become a Republican. But his actions suggest he is unwilling to distance himself from militant Cuban organizers.

The crowds that menaced the Canvassing Board and roughed up a Democratic official had been summoned by Radio Mambi, one of Miami's most stridently anti-communist Cuban radio stations. Radio Mambi played a similar role mustering the crowds who attempted to prevent Elian Gonzales from being reunited with his father.

(more) http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/6.24/001204-miamis.html

AND, it was reported Castro considered Elian his "trophy"!

PLUS: Gutierrez and Diaz is the name of a legal firm in Mexico engaged in NAFTA consulting work!

http://www.nafta-law.com/home_frame.htm

[Carolab]

300. And here's how Gutierrez fits in with 2000--Gore meets FLOCO

<snip>

The gorilla's name is FLOCO, short for Fear of those Loco Cuban-Americans. It was the mere mention of the dreaded tire-burning, car-bombing, vote hoarding, billionaire beast, and not the silly yelling, pushing, shoving, stomping, banging, and showing of fists of the well-fed, heeled, and organized Republican apparatchik, that made the three-member canvassing board pull the plug on a vote recount that would have put Al Gore on top.

Since the fabled Bay of Pigs debacle, FLOCO has ruled the Banana Republic of Miami with an iron claw. Now FLOCO, who taught Jeb and Katherine everything they know about certification and obstruction, has national ambitions. He wants to forge a more perfect union—the United States of Banamerica.

FLOCO's On The Way!
The Wall Street Journal's tautologically conservative columnist Paul Gigot, who witnessed the "bourgeois riot," gleefully reported that "the Republicans marched on the counting room en masse chanting 'Three Blind Mice' and 'Fraud, Fraud, Fraud,'" letting it be known "that 1,000 local Cuban-American Republicans were on the way—not a happy prospect for Anglo judges who must run for re-election."

An even unhappier prospect, if you already owe your re-election to FLOCO, as two of the three canvassing board members do. County judges Myriam Lehr, an Independent, and Lawrence D. King, a Democrat, were re-elected to the bench thanks to the cut-throat political consultant Armando Gutierrez, last spotted as the "spokesman" for Elian's Miami relatives. Gutierrez is the man who delivers the indispensable FLOCO vote, without which nary a Republican or Democratic leaf flutters in South Florida.

(more)http://www.thegully.com/essays/america/001127miami_dade.html

And this detailing the Gutierrez' connections to Bush and to the Cuban Mafia in Florida:

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/miamimachine.htm

[Carolab]

301. Joseph Klock

http://www.steelhector.com/gendocs_display.php?id=7

Klock's law firm of Steel Hector and Davis. Alumnus include: Jeb Bush and Janet Reno.

Klock's law firm practices in the area of Child Law (among other areas). Is international (including Brazil). Klock and the Gutierrez Group both serve in Jeb's "mentoring" group.

[Carolab]

302. New information from Jeff Fisher

Fisher has a link from November 27 that says Palast has opened up an investigation into Cybernet, but the link is broken:

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/Election%20Fraud/Campaign2006/Election%20Fraud/palastdonation.htm

There is also this on his site, the link to which works but I am pasting it here in its entirety in case the link gets broken:

The following information comes from a research team which has linked together the missing dots in this criminal act and they want everyone to share the data from this investigation with the entire planet.

Below is some very important evidence everyone needs to take a look at.

'You might want to get out the calculator...

"Dr. Piotr Blass, chief technology advisor at ZeoSync, said "Our recent accomplishment is so significant that highly randomized information sequences, which were once considered non-reducible by the scientific community, are now massively reducible using advanced single-bit-variance encoding and supporting technologies."

"The technologies that are being developed at ZeoSync are anticipated to ultimately provide a means to perform multi-pass data encoding and compression on practically random data sets with applicability to nearly every industry," said Jim Slemp, president of Radical Systems, Inc.

"The evaluation of the complex algorithms is currently being performed with small practically random data sets due to the analysis times on standard computers. Based on our internally validated test results of these components, we have demonstrated a single-point-variance when encoding random data into a smaller data set. The ability to encode single-point-variance data is expected to yield multi-pass capable systems after temporal issues are addressed."

http://www.amrad.org/pipermail/lf/2002q1.txt

Doctor, are you certain that such multi-pass capable systems aren't already in use?

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:VF37oWXvqEAJ:www.opticalalert.com/04x19x02xmltc.asp+ZeoSync+technologies+announces+deal&hl=en%20target=nw
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-839851.html

http://www.duxcw.com/newsold/2002/jan.htm

It appears that they were in use in several florida based locations and oddly enough it was compounded into multiple operating systems...Including Oracle including Windows NT, so lets see then...

Lucent technologies adapts the program followed by CyberNET and its legacy based software department CyberNET systems, which is even on their company page. It appears as though ZeoSync largely based in Florida was involved in this whole deal to develop the software...

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:6Qg-OtoBmWEJ:www.congress.org/congressorg/e4/cinfo/profile/%3Fid%3D123296%26type%3Ddnet+Schools+work+with+ZeoSync+technology&hl=en%20target=nw

The software is nothing but a code, a shell code easily applied into any legacy database which is what Cyber has always specialized in. The same companies trading stock with the machine voting vendors.....What did I discover about your interesting code Dr. Blass?

Reverse integer integrations appear across the board, depending on the bit size. Having personally heard on the radio today, from Ohio state talking about the new smoking evidence of election fraud they found....I did a little back ground check.

Guess what happened to the tabulators the lawyers found which lost all the Kerry votes? They ended up counting backwards....They ended up reversing integers, which based on the studies of Dr. Blass, this entire program was sold and patented to rig elections....Think about it, unparalleled control of elections due to database source code, which could be found in normal voting machines and their programmers all the way down to small end company network systems. All with one purpose in mind: Control the numbers.....Doctor you are a master mathematic genius are you not? What purpose would a math-integer compression program serve inside the wrong hands? Can you imagine being able to hack one machine, install this code, and have virtual control over all of the votes in an entire state in literally minutes.....Have control over all the social security numbers in Accenture's database in less than 10 seconds....Have control over the world financial records and their bank totals, using Diebold ATM's in under 20 seconds....Can you actually imagine the impact such a profoundly evil program could have, besides the basis of good it can do?

Nothing but the facts, I'm sending it in.'

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/Election%20Fraud/electionfraudlink.htm

[seemslikeadream]

303. Don't you ever sleep Carolab?

I'm just getting here, going back to read it all now. Thanks so much for all you've done.

[kk897]

305. Barton's dead, but where's his wife?

And his partner? Been trying to track them down for days...

[trudyco]

306. Chinavest connections

I don't know if this has been covered, it's hard to follow this long thread, but has anybody researched Chinavest?

I did a couple of days ago and found a website of a conference in 2002. The then head of Chinavest had a chinese name and in their background it said they had worked at Anderson (I assumed arthur anderson which spun off Accenture). Maybe that person was Ms Hsui below.

I now can't find the website.

I did find that the co-founders of Chinavest which include Ms. Hsui and her husband Mr Theleen started out in Dallas.

Wasn't Dallas the epicenter of Madsen's story?

Ms Hsui was on the board of Styron and the Catholic Charities.
I think Mr Brownrigg was also on the board of Styron.

Very tenuous links. Styron became CyberNet.

[Carolab]

310. Link to Chinavest

http://www.chinavest.com/jen.html

You are correct. Jenny Hsui started out in Dallas as the Dallas Pacific Group. One of the companies in the portfolio is Styron. She is connected to Catholic Charities. In addition, so is Foster Friess, who succeeded Rich DeVos as president of the Council for National Policy (mentioned above). Brandywine is Foster's brainchild--an investment consulting firm.

I believe Foster and DeVos are also involved with Legatus, which is an international group of businessmen who are dedicated to creating a worldwide network of, essentially, faith-based businesses.

So Chinavest, CNP, Catholic Charities, DeVos, and CyberNET (through Styron) are all connected, and apparently through Legatus, which is centered apparently in Grand Rapids, MICHIGAN.

Read about Legatus and its relationship to ancient Roman empire:
http://www.nurturingnetwork.org/article_19.htm

Read the Legatus website for more details:

http://www.legatus.org/public/index.asp

History of Legatus and its founder Tom Monaghan:

http://www.nurturingnetwork.org/article_19.htm

[Carolab]

311. More on Tom Monaghan of Legatus (Ann Arbor, MI)

http://www.detnews.com/1999/religion/9905/21/05220013.htm

Legatus was founder of Dominos Pizza, is from Ann Arbor, Michigan, and sold his company intending to use the money for "good (Christian/Catholic) works".

[Verve]

307. Carolab, this is amazing! This new info needs to be a new post!

It's getting lost in here! :yourock:

[kk897]

308. Could we maybe make a new thread?

Carolab, this particular thread is taking a very long time to load up and scroll through, and so much of it is argument. Could we maybe start a new one with a recap of the actual substantitive posts from this one?

[seemslikeadream]

309. I think starting a new thread is a good idea Carolab

I think kk897 suggestion is a great idea, I hope will consider it. Thanks again
SLaD

[Carolab]

312. OMG! Look what I found out about Stryon and Halcyon!

http://xforce.iss.net/xforce/xfdb/10860

Instant ASP (iASP) "dot dot" directory traversal
iasp-dotdot-directory-traversal (10860) Medium Risk

Description:

Instant ASP (iASP) is a framework for deploying Active Server Pages (ASP), developed by Stryon. iASP versions 1.0.9 and earlier could allow a remote attacker to traverse directories on the Web server, caused by a vulnerability in the Remote Console Applet running on port 9095. A remote attacker could send a specially-crafted URL containing "dot dot" sequences (../) to traverse directories and view any file on the system.

Platforms Affected:

Linux: Linux Any version
Microsoft Corporation: Windows Any version
Styron: Instant ASP (iASP) 1.0.9 and earlier
Various: Unix Any version
Remedy:

No remedy available as of December 2002.

Consequences:

Obtain Information

References:

BugTraq Mailing List, Thu Dec 12 2002 - 18:35:29 CST , Advisory Title: iASP Remote Console Applet Allows Remote at http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2002-12/0126.html.
iASP Web site, Stryon - Systems, Migration, Products, and Service at http://www.stryon.com/products.asp?s=1.
Standards associated with this entry:

BID-6394: Halcyon Software iASP File Disclosure Vulnerability
Reported:

Dec 12, 2002

The information within this database may change without notice. Use of this information constitutes acceptance for use in an AS IS condition. There are NO warranties, implied or otherwise, with regard to this information or its use. Any use of this information is at the user's risk. In no event shall the author/distributor (Internet Security Systems X-Force) be held liable for any damages whatsoever arising out of or in connection with the use or spread of this information.

Copyright (c) 1994-2004 Internet Security Systems, Inc. All rights reserved worldwide.

For corrections or additions please email [e-mail]

Halcyon internet security vulnerability:

http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6394

Halcyon Software iASP File Disclosure Vulnerability


bugtraq id 6394
object
class Input Validation Error
cve CVE-MAP-NOMATCH

remote Yes
local No
published Dec 13, 2002
updated Dec 13, 2002
vulnerable Halycon Software iASP 1.0.9


http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/303281


Please see attached advisory.


_____________________________________________________________________
Fate Research Laboratories
Security Advisory
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Advisory Title: Remote Console Applet Allows Remote
File Retrieval
Package: Instant ASP (iASP)
Vendor: Halcyon Software
Vendor Web Site: http://www.stryon.com
Versions: <= (v1.0.9) (Latest: Unknown)
Advisory ID: F820021202:IASP
Issue Date: Tue 3 21:24:12 IST 2002
File(s): Remote Console Applet Running on Port 9095
Local: No
Remote: Yes
Vendor Contacted: Yes (8/12/2002)
Vulnerability Class: Access validation
Researcher: Alan "ph33r" Neville <ph33r fatelabs com>
Fate Web Site: http://www.fatelabs.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright (C) 1997-2002 Fate Research Laboratories.
_____________________________________________________________________

[seemslikeadream]

313. Authorities release 911 tape of CyberNET Group CEO

(Update, Ada Township, November 30, 2004, 7:46 p.m.) Authorities have released the telling 911 tapes from The CyberNET Group CEO Barton Watson on the night he committed suicide during a standoff with police at his home.

Excerpt 1 of the 911 conversation
Excerpt 2 of the 911 conversation
Brad Edwards report
The tapes contain two hours of conversations between the embattled leader and negotiators, negotiations that stopped when Watson shot and killed himself last week.

On that night, the pressure was mounting for Watson to answer questions as his business was folding, creditors were looking for millions of dollars and a hundred plus workers were told they were out of work.

Dispatcher: "911 emergency."
Watson: "Hello."
Dispatcher: “Hi, 911 emergency. What's your emergency?"
Watson: "Well there's a gun in my mouth."

more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2631342&nav=0RceTgGp


CyberNet president and COO James Horton.
http://www.crn.com/sections/breakingnews/dailyarchives.jhtml?articleId=54200945

[Carolab]

315. My first question:

What authorities released this?

How do we know this is real?

Was Watson suicided or did he really kill himself?

Any news about his wife/partner James Horton/Watson's funeral?

[seemslikeadream]

318. Where is James Horton, has he been arrested?

The suit alleges that The CyberNet Group’s founder and chairman Barton Watson and chief operating officer James Horton are operating a fake company, based in Delaware, to funnel money.

http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/cyb111904.cfm




The technology of CyberNET releases SourcePlus., IT purchasing power of use of directors to add the personnel -- for free

10/24/2001 Cybernet Engineering

RAPIDS LARGE, SEMI -- October 24, 2001 -- CyberNET Engineering, Inc www.cybernetengineering.com announces SourcePlus.. Reasonable prices with the difference of the typical suppliers suppliers of material of computer and information technology, SourcePlus. trusts and free services of a convenient place. Companies which are recorded for this program will be invited to see the real costs of the product of CyberNET on line, to choose their own margin on each product bought then use this margin to finely choose of full with HIM machine, realizers of software/web and services of project management.

According to James Horton, president de CyberNET, "in our 12 years of the businesses we never created a product which was so much aggressively embraced by our customers of class of company. It seems that each one wants to obtain in this movement."

The program offers the establishment of the price of the competing product packed up with the free professional services which can be employed to deploy the hardware and the software of infrastructure of network. Choose full continuation of CyberNET of the services to increase the expertise on the occupied departments of technology information in the sectors such as the bearing out of the initiatives of new technology, while putting pursuant to the complex projects, while maximizing to exist IT systems or to please fill need for additional personnel of service For more information on SourcePlus. and CyberNET technology visit www.cybernetengineering.com or call [phone].

About Technology De CyberNET, Inc.
Founded in 1989 and sat in Large Rapids, SEMI, CyberNET Engineering Inc has offices in the whole of the United States, Asia and Australia. CyberNET on several occasions was chosen as a one of the top of SmartPartner 100 and VARBusiness 500' S IT of the suppliers of solution specializing in the thin customer, the storage and the services of asp. Stryon, a subsidiary company of CyberNET, the architects and the instruments sophisticated applications of sequence and basic data. The proven methodology of project management of the company allows the convenient and effective execution of the great scale IT of the achievements.

CONTACT:
Kris Kotlarz
Elder communications Of corporation of V.P.
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Telephone: [phone]
www.cybernet-usa.com

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://computer.pr-archive.com/fr/pr35698.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522James%2BHorton%2522%2Bcybernet%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26scoring%3Dd

[seemslikeadream]

331. CyberNET Group officials to appear in court

CyberNET Group officials to appear in court


One of the lawsuits filed against The CyberNET Group.

(Grand Rapids, December 1, 2004, 12:30 p.m.) The hearing today comes on the heels of more documents being filed in court against the information technology company as a number of creditors and others search for their money.

One of the big names due in court is Jim Horton. He is the chairman of The CyberNET Group and is yet to be seen or heard from since the federal investigation of the company began last month.

We are not sure exactly what is going to happen in court or who is going to show up. But it involves one of the many creditors looking for the missing millions of dollars.

...

24 Hour News 8 has also mentioned suspicious wire transfers made by Jim Horton. The company president made a number of transfers ranging in amounts from $700,000 to $1 million to what are alleged to be shell businesses. Plus, $1 million went to an office in Hong Kong, $750,000 to the mother of The CyberNET Group CEO Barton Watson, $20,000 to Barton's wife Krista, and $20,000 to Horton’s wife Angie.

A bank in Kansas City has filed a federal lawsuit against The CyberNET Group. It says it was swindled out of $5 million when it made a loan to Barton Watson. The collateral that is being used for the loan are those non-existent Internet servers.

more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2635247&nav=0RceTiLQ

[Carolab]

325. This "suicide" is very fishy

The reports said police heard "multiple gunshots in the house". HUH? Why would that be? Why would Barton call "for help" on 911 if he wanted to kill himself?

Also, why did he engage in a standoff with police? Why not just come out with the gun and let them kill him off instead--you know, "police-assisted suicide"?

The whole thing reeks.

[seemslikeadream]

332. "I made a mistake," Watson says in a low voice.

"What was the mistake you made?"

"The reason that it is over," Watson says.

more
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1101917775119420.xml

[seemslikeadream]

314. To avoid confusion I'm deleting this link

n/t

[Carolab]

316. Problem

We haven't established that this company is related to the CyberNET Group. We have established that Styron and Halcyon were and that Styron is connected to Chinavest. See my security bugtraq notices above. Obviously, the Styron and Halcyon software allowed remote hacking into directories and from there into files, anywhere on the net. This to me is very significant.

Would like to track ZeoSync more and its connections to Styron/Halcyon software and Legacy.

[seemslikeadream]

317. Thanks so much Carolab

Sorry, I edited my post to that effect, I wouldn't want there to be any confusion.

.....

CyberNet Group Offices Raided
November 19, 2004 -- (WEB HOST INDUSTRY REVIEW) -- According to reports, the offices of Web hosting provider The CyberNet Group (cybernet-usa.com) were raided this past Wednesday by agents of five different federal agencies, including the FBI and IRS.

The raid took place at The CyberNet Group’s offices located at 25 South Division Avenue in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Federal agents reportedly seized computers and other equipment and were back on the premises Thursday.

The reason for the raid is unclear. However, sources say the investigation involves wire mail fraud and bank fraud.

According to one report, a lawsuit against The CyberNet Group was filed in Kent County Court on Thursday, charging the company with fraud and breach of contract. The suit alleges that The CyberNet Group’s founder and chairman Barton Watson and chief operating officer James Horton are operating a fake company, based in Delaware, to funnel money.

According to another report, Watson was convicted of fraud in the early 1980s. The company also previously made an out of court settlement with Hastings Public Schools after a former employee blew the whistle on improper computer sales The CyberNet Group made to Hastings Public Schools.

Lawyers for Watson and Horton have declined comment.
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/cyb111904.cfm

[Carolab]

319. ZeoSync

http://www.backseatdriver.com/clients/ZeoSync/docs/factsheet.htm

Above is a website about ZeoSync. There is a placeholder on the net for (www.zeosync.net) but it is not operational. Site says that Piotr Blass is on staff, also says he was one of the first scientists to develop a website. Also, he's on faculty of Florida Atlantic University.

I did a websearch on ZeoSync. Based in West Palm Beach, Florida. Headed by a Mr. St. George. They made their compression technology announcement in 2002. There were a lot of skeptics, many industry articles covered by Reuters, Wired, etc. One interesting piece suggests that one of the people involved (H. Hamby Hutcheson) has a criminal background (bad checks, cocaine possession) in Florida. H. Hamby also has some kind of a Transportation Department connection--was involved in facial and handwriting recognition and in smart card (!) technologies--in a business that was established in 2002 but filed bankruptcy in 1997 (!): http://www.neurometric-vision.com/index.html

Some questions were also raised about proposed 22 million dollar (?)funding to be gained in January 2002.

http://datacompression.info/IncredibleClaims.shtml

CyberNET Group's charges are RICO offenses. Wonder if ZeoSync is "for real" or whether they were collecting money for bogus tech claims.

[kk897]

320. maybe ZeoSync is one of the shell companies that Madsen alluded to n/t

A couple of days ago I was looking for the wife and partner and found nada. But I do believe there is a link to the right wing extremist movements; check out White Hat Management in Akron. I'll try to put together all my ideas in some coherent way if anyone's interested, although I was trying to do that in my thread on the right wingers.

[kk897]

321. sorry about the n/t above

I changed my mind as I typed it!

[Carolab]

323. Oh, man--Amway

http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/DOWNLOADBOOK.html

[seemslikeadream]

327. You can say that again!

Politicians Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, George Bush, George W. Bush, Ollie North, Rick Santorum, Newt Gingrich, Jack Kemp, Sue Myrick
• Evangelists Robert Schuller, Billy Zeoli, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell
• Entertainers Dr. Phil, Pat Boone, Johnny Cash, Crystal Gayle, Andy Andrews, Glen Campbell, Roy Clark
• Former political hostages, ex-POWs, and military leaders
• Olympic gymnasts
• A $283 million tax break personally crafted by the then-Speaker of the House of Representatives Newt Gingrich who has reportedly accepted $50,000 a speech in fees
• A multi-billion dollar enterprise spanning 80 countries and presently involving an estimated membership in the millions
• Tens of billions of dollars accrued through fraud and deception
• Bizarre sex teachings
• Deceptive mind control practices
• Private islands in the Caribbean and Canada
• Lies and deceptions
• Decades of financial deception on a global scale, in the billions of dollars
• Kidnap and murder in Texas
• Cultism
• Millions in contributions to the Republican Party
• Largest fine for criminal fraud ever levied by the Canadian government
• May have directly affected about 1 in every 6 Americans...

[Carl Brennan]

328. Whaaa? Bizarre sexual teachings???

Those nasty little hypocrites.

[Carl Brennan]

335. Amway , fundies, and the KKK --members of this organization.

http://www.sjcdc.org/theocracy.html
A more secretive organization of the Religious Right is called the Council on National Policy (CNP). Founded in 1981 by John Birch Society leaders William Cies and the late Rep. Larry McDonald (R-GA), the CNP became a significant organization for Radical Right campaigns, strategies, and long-term planning. Early CNP leadership included Reagan Administration operatives, Christian Right election strategists, pro-apartheid activists, and organizers for the support network of the Central American contras. Current membership includes: Reverend Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Rousas John Rushdoony, Reverend D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Ministries, Florida), Paul Weyrich (Free Congress Foundation and National Empowerment Television), Gary North (Institute for Christian Economics, which advocates for Christian Reconstructionism and a new system of slavery), Phyllis Schlafly (Eagle Forum), Reverend Donald Wildmon (American Family Association), James Dobson (Focus on the Family), Reverend Lou Sheldon (Traditional Values Coalition), Richard DeVos (Co-owner of Amway Corporation), Nancy DeMoss (Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation), Jeffrey Coors (Coors Foundation; Free Congress Foundation), Howard Phillips (US Taxpayers Party; Conservative Caucus), Nelson Bunker Hunt (Texas oil tycoon; National Council of the John Birch Society), Richard Schoff (former Indiana Ku Klux Klan leader; owner of Lincoln Log Homes in North Carolina; funder of Conservative Caucus), Richard Wirthlin (prominent Republican pollster), and Reagan-era criminals Oliver North and Edwin Meese. CNP has an agenda that is disturbingly similar to those of the more obvious extremists, as well as actual links.

[indigonation]

338. More good info on the CNP: Top GOP and Christian Right Leaders

All in the same pot. This would be the group most seriously needing to ensure a victory for the Shrub.

This is the "secret" organization whose members include the top Neo-Cons and Christian leaders together. It also appears to be a huge tax shelter since it has 501(3)c non-profit status. Read the many common names in the membership roster. Another link will take you to the donations.

Disinfopedia Link: Council on National Policy

[Carl Brennan]

340. Good work. Thanks.

This topic is getting kind of long. I hope people see this.

[indigonation]

341. Thanks

Im glad you saw it. The post above that one also found a reference to it. Perhaps someone should start another continued thread...
(I think I'm too new)

Here's a recent related article from a link on that reference:

NY Times archive 8/2004: Club of the Most Powerful Gathers in Strictest Privacy

[Carl Brennan]

343. Dang, that's another good link. This shows that Cheney and KKK

part of the same secretive org.

[Carolab]

329. Self-deleted (dupe)

[momzno1]

322. it says on the contact page of Cybernet engineering that

it is part of the Cybernet group from grand rapids michigan. Isn't this the same Cybernet??????

http://www.cybernetengineering.com/contact.asp

[Carolab]

324. Yes it is

Now scroll up and read the post about Amway.

Oh,there's a CONNECTION, all right.

326. PLEASE summarize in a new thread

This information is so amazing/appalling, and so overwhelming.

[Carolab]

330. H. Hamby Hutcheson of ZeoSync

Man, this guy gets around. I found at least five companies (tech-based) that he "heads up".

One thing I wanted to re-post from upthread was this--CON-WAY--Hutcheson was involved with the U.S. Department of Transportation in the Neurometric-vision company (read link in post #319).

"The new NVS product development efforts will still be aimed at the Banking Industry (signature verification, automated check processing, smart cards, etc.), however, we are now adding the Transportation Industry (drivers licenses, national identity cards, license plate recognizers, etc.)."


*********

Watson's quoted extensively in this Chamber of Commerce/"Nation's Business" puff piece, which mentions his law firm, Morrison Mahoney, and lawyer, Nicholas Alexander.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1154/is_2_87 ...

Further, he worked with Wyse technologies. Here's a snip from a press release:

"Wyse Gold Reseller CyberNET Engineering, assisted CON-WAY with its installation and configuration of thin clients."

http://www.wyse.com/about/pr/2001/0430_conway.htm

Con-Way is a huge logistics/trucking firm, a subsidiary of CNF Transportation.

[indigonation]

336. So why should you care about Amway...

And what is the Cybernet Amway connection?

(I am still new but I assure you not a freeper, just interested in the topic. Since this is still alive I have some additional research to add. )

Amway-VanAndel-Devos establishments in Grand Rapids include (but not limited to) the Amway Grand Plaza, Amway Corporate Building, DeVos Place, Van Andel Arena, DeVos Hall, Van Andel Museum (used to be Grand Rapids Public Museum), The Van Andel Research Institute, to name a few. They are also involved with the Gerald R. Ford Presidental Museum.

CyberNet did IT Services and WebHosting for the VanAndel Arena (major concert hall) and DeVos Place (big conference center). This is not confirmed, but shouldn't suprise anyone if CyberNet Group did IT services for many more of the above establishments. This would make the Amway clan very big valuable bankroll client of CyberNet Group Inc, which the FBI recently raided and CEO Barton Watson committed suicide.

Are there still no confirmed links between this parent Cyberco Holdings, Cybernet Ventures(possible Diebold connection) , or Cybernet Systems (Ann Arbor)? People have been also trying to find connections between Accenture, Zeosync, Stryon/Halycon (CyberNet Group), Quixtar,/Alticor (Amway), to name a few, and consider also the worldwide Rupert Murdoch media establishment for more tin-hat research. Forgive me if this is not a complete list.

Heres the rub.... The questions are who and why?
If the GOP needed a corrupt corporation to infiltrate the voting system via software engineering and/or internet connections, a corrupt firm like Cybernet Group might be willing to cooperate for the right amount of $$. It turns out Barton Watson, its CEO, was also a man with a 150+ IQ, perhaps able to engineer this scheme independently. The vested Amway coorporation need not look any farther than their back yard at the already repudiated con-man that handles IT and web services for at least two of their biggest establishments. CyberNet Group came to our attention after the FBI raid for several fraud violations, and then the suicide. But please note these are still tin-hat speculations.

The Amway / Alticor Coporation is a huge bankroll for the highest eschalons of the GOP and the Christain Right. Make no doubt about it, these people have alot to loose with the NeoCons NOT in power.

Below are some very good examples of the amount of conservative power and money invested in these Amway/Alticor/DeVos/VanAndel connections:


Bush's Bagmen (Pioneers and Rangers)
<snip>
Some Pioneers rely on a sort of pyramid scheme to gather money: They enlist others to fund-raise on their behalf, in exchange for recognition from the White House. "To have a photo op with Laura Bush, you raise $10,000," says one Ranger who asked not to be identified. "For the president, it has to be $20,000." The multilevel fund-raising is another tactic lifted from the corporate world. "Basically, it's an Amway sort of model," says Kevin Rennie, a former Republican state legislator from Connecticut who has monitored Bush's fund-raising effort. Appropriately, Betsy DeVos, whose husband heads the Amway empire, is a Bush Pioneer.
<snip>

Besty DeVos is a Bush Pioneer
White House for Sale

Heritage Foundation Announces New DeVos Religion Center
link

Guide to Instututions of Global Corporate Power (see Heritage Foundation/Richard DeVos)
link
and

Behind the Conservative Curtain (again the Heritage Foundation /Richard DeVos)
link

Heritage Foundation Board of Trustees (more familiar NeoCons and Van Anel)
link


The Private Contractor - GOP Gravy Train
Blackwater also works other angles. One of the firm's founders is Michigan native Erik Prince, a former Navy SEAL. His father, Edgar Prince, helped religious right leader Gary Bauer found the Family Research Council in 1988. Erik Prince's sister, Betsy DeVos, is the chairwoman of the Michigan Republican Party. But Blackwater is a relative newcomer to the Washington influence game, especially compared with CACI and Titan, which have been trailblazers.


Blackwater's Best Kept Secret - Its Founder
<snip>
A month ago, Blackwater USA founder Erik D. Prince enjoyed a surprising level of anonymity.
Not many people knew just how big his Moyock, N.C.-based company was. Few knew how prevalent private security firms were in Iraq. Even fewer knew that the sandy-haired , blue-eyed 34-year-old hailed from one of the wealthiest and best-connected families in Michigan.
And Prince liked it that way.
All that changed on March 31, when the grisly images of four charred bodies of Blackwater employees flashed across television screens around the world.
<snip>
While Elsa Prince is still active in town, the most well-known family member is Erik’s sister, Betsy. She married Dick DeVos, whose father, Richard, is co-founder of Amway, owner of the Orlando Magic basketball team and No. 216 on Forbes’ most recent list of the world’s richest people , with a net worth estimated at $2.4 billion.
Betsy DeVos is a mover and shaker in her own right. She chaired the Michigan Republican Party for several years and personally collected millions of dollars from the Princes and DeVoses for her top cause: school vouchers. She declined to comment about her brother for this story.
<snip>

Download the book that describes more neo-con brainwashing and GOP funding by Amway/Alticor.
Merchants of Deception

Dont forget these other related institutions (and more):
Creation Research Center
and
Van Andel Institute
and
Restoring the American Dream

There are some additional connections to the Carlyle Group (suprised?!) but still too obscure to post. Please excuse me if I don't hang around for the discussion. Nothing personal. But I am keeping up on the news at DU and reading the Election fraud posts.

I hope these are helpful contributions. Not intended to send people on a wild goose chase, just find the connections.

Thanks for being here. It has been a great comfort.

[Carolab]

337. Back to the Michigan-Florida "connection"...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/09/05/BU228035.DTL

Con-Way is a "regional", "non-union" operation based in MICHIGAN. Palo-Alto based CNF was spun off of Consolidated Freightway in 2002, and at that time there was discussion whether or not Con-Way would become a stand-alone company. I find it interesting that Con-Way is ALSO in Michigan, especially since H. Hamby Hutcheson and ZeoSync are in Palm Beach and H. Hamby got a contract for his "Neuro-Metric Visions" company with them via the Department of Transportation.

I smell a definite Florida-Michigan connection, especially since the new Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez is a former Cuban refugee and has been the President of Kellogg's in MICHIGAN. I would like to find out whether or not Carlos is indeed related to FLOCO's main man and 2000 election hit-man Armando Gutierrez in Miami and to his son Armando Jr., head of the Florida College Republicans. Did Armando Jr. have anything to do with this hacking? Did it possibly occur on his campus or in association with his campus computer science department and the Baypoint Schools? I'd like to know whether we can find any evidence of procurement/sales between CyberNET/Halcyon/Stryon and Florida or other schools. I know CyberNET had a bad deal with Hastings Public Schools (sold them used instead of contracted new equipment).

Alternatively, they were merely a shell organization and they may have marketed the software do perform the hacking but it may have had another angle to it--international money laundering. Chinavest's players all have banking and investment backgrounds, and two of the principals were with the First National Bank of Dallas (Theleen and Keen). Mr. Michael Brownrigg has the added distinction of having been with the State Department, stationed in Hong Kong for three years, under Clinton. Furthermore, Mr. Brownrigg was on the board of Stryon.

Or, was CyberNET and its associated companies merely a front for money laundering between Florida and Michigan and also between San Francisco (where Chinavest is located) and Dallas and between all of these points and China/Asia?

[seemslikeadream]

339. CyberNET a circle of fraud, FBI affidavit says

Thursday, December 02, 2004
By Ed White
The Grand Rapids Press
GRAND RAPIDS -- Federal agents are building a case of fraud, money laundering and tax evasion against executives at the CyberNET Group, according to a 54-page document that describes an elaborate scheme to reap millions of dollars from lenders who believed they were financing high-tech equipment and services.

Instead, a big chunk paid for the high life of Barton and Krista Watson: a condominium off Chicago's Michigan Avenue, a $350,000 Rolls Royce, wine worth $20,000, a Cessna airplane and more than $1 million in credit-card purchases, the FBI said. They created phony companies and rented mailboxes across the country to fool lenders into keeping the cash flowing, agent Roberta Gilligan said.

She described it as a "Ponzi" scheme, named for an old Boston swindler, as the Watsons and President James Horton repeatedly sought new sources of money to maintain their lifestyle and keep up with debt payments.

The affidavit was filed this week to persuade a federal judge to order the seizure of a $1 million CyberNET bank account in Hong Kong and a $25,000 account in Chicago. Gilligan said the government earlier got approval to seize $5 million from accounts controlled by the Watsons, Barton Watson's 75-year-old mother, Horton, defense lawyers and others. The Rolls Royce also was snatched.


From May 2002 to March 2004, lenders sent $22 million to Teleservices. In turn, the money went right back out to other accounts controlled by CyberNET officials, the FBI said.
A bank account in the name of another "shell company," Corporate Property Associates, had $8 million in deposits from lenders. Krista Watson tapped it to make monthly payments on the Ada home, the Chicago condo and a 2002 BMW, the FBI said.


more
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

342. "Bay Point Schools, Cal Tech, and the CyberNET connection..BBV

"Bay Point Schools, Cal Tech, and the CyberNET connection."
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&omm=0&om=56&forum=DCForumID4122


I think its time the public see this.

Interestingly enough, Dr. Piotr Blass is not only significant and real, he has alot of resume background in Michigan state, and otherwise, is connected to a very interesting corporation known as CyberNET Venturs Inc.(which manages all of Cybernets divisions...)

In the allegations report, a certain vendor described that such a network company was financing the operation through Mel Sembler and a few other bad eggs connected to the head of the game map. Another company was described as giving source to certain code.....Turns out CyberN is indeed an open source code distributor to several organizations, ultimately not even limited to voting companies. Also turns out an employee named Guitterez works(or had worked) there and created actual databases for elections across the USA and easily the globe, that are certainly not MS Access.

http://engrm.com/personnel/gutierrez-alan/experiential.html

Also interestingly enough, the state and F.B.I just barely seized CyberNET Ventures Inc capital in Michigan state for all of its computer systems. Every single last one, in one large effort, and refused to state why they had them seized and impounded.

More interesting though, is the fact that if you look and sniff around it appears CyberNET (who is also, direct finance of the white house and ambassador) had its systems freely distributed among universities...Schools, teaching sites, and so on everywhere. And more interestingly also worldwide.

But the most interesting part of all, is CyberNET's own interest in Diebold, and helping them out of some dirty circumstances....

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:mk1BGFoCVrkJ:www.eff.org/legal/ISP_liability/OPG_v_Diebold/20040930_Diebold_SJ_Order.pdf+CyberNET+Ventures+Inc.+has+contract+with+Diebold&hl=en&start=1

And of course on top of all this, ChoicePoint government who controls voting name rosters, being issued by Jeb Bush to directly not only take off the felon purge lists, but keep them as well. Authorities issued repeated orders for him to turn it off and instead he saved all the names to some hard drive and area around there in order to use them all again later.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65377,00.html?tw=rss.TOP

What I'm seeing here, is clearly one of the ugliest watergate level scandals there ever was, and then of course the media has no idea of anything. So what can we do about it?

Here is what: We need an astute group of search experts, to find any, and every single tie the one and only CyberNET Ventures has with this issue because it leads straight to the top and back to the whitehouse. So far much information seems to be missing (blank pages) so experts who have background in information management, do your part! Search all the archives and find any and all reports and links of these companies together, linkes to ChoicePoint, links between each party and so on and get this rotton egg hard broiled!

Of course the vote totals were flipped: Using obvious malicious code of rigged names across the board, some that possibly don't even exist (see: evicted felon/citizen roster) and even adoptions for all anyone knows. And the way to make this come full force as the biggest dump ever seen is do an information sweep, and find every single leaked report there possibly is, get it recorded! Get it archived!

We can help the federal authorities and team do their job, Ireland even said this on the radio. And yes I'm going to say something some would start turning their heads in at: The Fisher story is most likely a correct, variable assessment and main report of what went on.

Schools involved clearly are not the only ones as Cal Tech and universities constantly stating the exit polls mean nothing, are all possible suspects too. I would leave no stone unturned and do your part as citizens to call it out.

Oh and good luck, we have democracy at risk here.

"Nothing is foolproof. Footprints are real."

[kk897]

344. just to point you in the right direction

look up thread for stuff about this.

[Alizaryn]

345. PLEASE SOMEONE POINT ME TO THE LINK THAT

shows: " interesting corporation known as CyberNET Venturs Inc.(which manages all of Cybernets divisions...) "

I have looked everywhere to find documentation of that tie to no avail!

[Carolab]

346. No association

Cyberco Holding Inc. does business as CyberNET group and CyberNET Engineering.

Could find no association between Cybernet Ventures and the above. Suggest these enterprises are NOT connected.

[Alizaryn]

347. Thanks, that was my conclusion too but it keeps being said that

they are related. Wondered if i had missed something.

[seemslikeadream]

349. FBI investigating widow of CyberNET Group CEO

Krista Watson


(Update, Grand Rapids, December 3, 2004, 7:24 p.m.) According to federal documents detailing the investigation of Grand Rapids-based The CyberNET Group, the FBI is building a case against not only the estate of the company’s now deceased CEO, Barton Watson, but also against his wife, Krista Watson.

...

The FBI document says Mrs. Watson was deeply involved in creating "dummy" corporations, manipulating employees into breaking the law, and transferring millions of dollars in and out of bank accounts in a laundering scheme.

...

Five years later while working as an executive at The CyberNET Group, she convinced employees to remove refurbished stickers from computers in order to sell them as new.

...

24 Hour News 8 tried to find Krista Watson. We checked at her parents’ house but nobody answered. We also tried at her million dollar mansion in Ada Township. The Watson name has since been removed from the buzzer at the gate. We then looked at her stable in Ada, but there is still no sign of her. The same can be said at her condo.

...

On Page 27, investigators say Krista created a shell company in which $9 million were deposited then withdrawn in three years.
On Page 32, authorities say employees were instructed by Krista to create dummy invoices to fool banks and get loans.
On Page 41, it says Krista Kotlarz used a fake company name to buy a $350,000 Rolls Royce.
On Page 43, the affidavit alleges Krista created numerous shell companies to launder illegal proceeds for her personal gain.
These are just a smattering of all the allegations as her name or an alias is mentioned in the document 65 times.

So will charges be filed in this case against Krista Watson? And if so, when? Sources at the FBI say it could be months.
more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2646808&nav=0RceToVt


CyberNET a circle of fraud, FBI affidavit says

Thursday, December 02, 2004
By Ed White
The Grand Rapids Press
GRAND RAPIDS -- Federal agents are building a case of fraud, money laundering and tax evasion against executives at the CyberNET Group, according to a 54-page document that describes an elaborate scheme to reap millions of dollars from lenders who believed they were financing high-tech equipment and services.

Instead, a big chunk paid for the high life of Barton and Krista Watson: a condominium off Chicago's Michigan Avenue, a $350,000 Rolls Royce, wine worth $20,000, a Cessna airplane and more than $1 million in credit-card purchases, the FBI said.

They created phony companies and rented mailboxes across the country to fool lenders into keeping the cash flowing, agent Roberta Gilligan said.

She described it as a "Ponzi" scheme, named for an old Boston swindler, as the Watsons and President James Horton repeatedly sought new sources of money to maintain their lifestyle and keep up with debt payments.
more
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1102004126205710.xml

Authorities release 911 tape of CyberNET Group CEO

(Update, Ada Township, November 30, 2004, 7:46 p.m.) Authorities have released the telling 911 tapes from The CyberNET Group CEO Barton Watson on the night he committed suicide during a standoff with police at his home.

Excerpt 1 of the 911 conversation
Excerpt 2 of the 911 conversation
Brad Edwards report
The tapes contain two hours of conversations between the embattled leader and negotiators, negotiations that stopped when Watson shot and killed himself last week.

On that night, the pressure was mounting for Watson to answer questions as his business was folding, creditors were looking for millions of dollars and a hundred plus workers were told they were out of work.

Dispatcher: "911 emergency."
Watson: "Hello."
Dispatcher: “Hi, 911 emergency. What's your emergency?"
Watson: "Well there's a gun in my mouth."

more
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2631342&nav=0RceTgGp

Vigilant firm avoided CyberNET
Friday, December 03, 2004
By Ed White
The Grand Rapids Press
GRAND RAPIDS -- Not everyone got stung.

A New York financial company considered lending $1.1 million to help Cyberco Holdings acquire computer equipment and Herman Miller office furniture last year.

But First American Equipment Finance backed out after hitting roadblocks while trying to confirm the goods actually would be delivered.

First American believed it was "the victim of a possible fraud," the FBI said.

The aborted deal is included in an affidavit describing the government's criminal investigation of Cyberco, also known as CyberNET, and its executives. Agents suspect fraud, money laundering and tax evasion in the use and pursuit of borrowed money.

Several banks and financiers were duped into lending millions for equipment that didn't exist, the FBI said.
more
http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1102088753289330.xml

[blacklabsdad]

351. The 2 Co's are NOT related, nor does the Amway/GOP have any connections...

I mean, really, some of you people should seek some mental health professionals pronto.....way too much time on people's hands to dream up conspiracy theories to sate your wounded ego over backing the losing horse and to feed your need to demonize the other side instead of face the reality that we are a a nation split 50/50 on a lot of key issues and the Dem's are right on some, wrong on others and lost by a slim margin.....sheeesh....

CyberNET here in GR has nothing to do with the Evoting guys, nor the Van ANdel/DeVos families, other than they hosted a couple NON COMMERCE websites for a sports arena and real estate development firm....

I worked for this CyberNET for a few months a few years ago until I figured out they were all crooks....and I ran another company's sales force in Michigan that did most of the build job for the Amway E-Commerce engine, and yet another company that trained half of the 100's of onstaff computer techs for Amway.....so believe me...no conncetions there...the CyberNET owner was waaaay out of the league of the DeVos/VanAndel machine.....

The CyberNET here is just 5 people that ruined the lives of hundreds and defrauded banks to the tune of 8 figures plus....and I hope Barton gets poked in the ass by beezlebub for all eternity, that POS...and that Krista, Barton's mom, John Mast and Jim Horton join him there soon....truly EVIL EVIL people...and I'm not even religous.....

If everyone that did business with anything named DeVos or VanAndel in Michigan were a secret Republican front...there would be no Democrats left.....likewise if everyone that did business with Waste Management were assumed to be a mobster, our entire economy would be black market....

some of y'all need a break from the caffeine and conspiracy stories...go run in the park barefoot, or get a dog...or do something constructive....

" I smell a Michigan Florida connection".....hoo ha ha hoo ha...whatever one of you guys that wrote that post....please run to the Thorazine aisle of your local pharmacy and binge.....

[indigonation]

358. CyberNET Group is not just a small local company in GR

They are a worldwide engineering and IT services group.
CyberNet Group Worldwide

Amway/Alticor is NOT just a local company in Michigan. They are also a worldwide corporation and its owners are involved in and investing heavily in the Iraq War, Christian Right Organizations, and top GOP organizations.

This does not prove that just because they did business together that Amway/Cybernet Group orchestrated the Vote Fraud. But based on the devious nature, the enormous amount of cash, the geographic proximity, the FBI raid and the suicide, and the business connections of both, this is why this theory has hatched only to tie all points together. People here are merely exploring ONE of the connections to vote fraud evidence popping up all over the country. Somewhere there is a means and a motive.

I only answer your post to debunk your lack of knowledge on the complete nationwide picture for the benefit of others reading it. Many people are concerned that voter fraud occured and are trying to make sense of it all. John Kerry losing is not the issue, its the problems with our very corrupt voting system. And YOU should be concerned about it too.

[BlueDog2u]

359. Wow! One Post!

Welcome to DU. :toast:

[Last Lemming]

360. We are interested amateurs

What really matters here is what the FBI thinks. . .

[Last Lemming]

361. Hmmmm

Thorazine. . .don't see that drug cited much any more. I would guess you are over fifty and have a family member (brother-sister) with schitzophrenia. . .diagnosed about twenty years ago.

[Carolab]

350. Now I REALLY DID find Alan Gutierrez

He is a 33-year-old software developer from Michigan. There is an e-mail address below. Red Hat is a Linux site--appears on one of the links below. Alan was working on something called "Judo" up until a few months before the election. He was also involved in something called "SAX". He wrote something called "The Pitch" but the link no longer works although you can find it when you do a search.

The links for Judo that are below don't work now. Also the link to his blog "About: The Engine Room" doesn't work. But if you click on the link above there are some links that still work on that page. There are too many so I didn't copy them or save the page. Anyway, when I stumbled across him by searching through MSN Explorer, there was a line referencing his having met a couple from Holland Michigan with whom he was discussing "politics". If you want to see it, I used "Alan Gutierrez in Michigan". You can also find when you search people in the online white pages an Alan J. Gutierrez in Michigan, birthdate 1971.

http://khtml-win32.sourceforge.net/

Contact the developer: Alan Gutierrez. mailto:[e-mail]
Join the mailing list: [e-mail].
Browse the SourceForge project. http://sourceforge.net/projects/khtml-win32/
Read the journal.
Development Journal

Unresolved issues are marked with a bold exclamation point (!) .

Wednesday, March 24th, 2004
I finally got around to finding the long lost password and login for this site.

This project stalled. Life got difficult for me in early 2003. I spoke with folks who were interested in this project, but none so interested as to assume control.

I am working on a new initiative to create an open source XML data base, Momento. I've written an XML testing framework, and an encapsulation of Java SAX for reuse that you might find interesting. It is all at The Engine Room. http://engrm.com/

The modifications that I made to the source that permit it to be compile under VC++ 6.2 where rolled into the KHTML base back in 2003.

I am frequently asked about ports of Apple's libaries, things like WebCore. Never happened. I was looking to implement those services using the Win 32 API and standard C++.

I must say that I am astounded that no one has picked up this project. The KHTML source base is quite excellent. I suppose the fears of GPL and the healthy respect of the QT license have done a lot to keep KHTML off of Windows. Pity. It is excellent code.

In the comming months, provided I can get Momento (http://engrm.com/project/com.agtrz.momento/)
off the ground, I'll be starting to play around with an ASF licensed browser in C++. If anything, this project taught me that there world longs for a standards compliant, lightweight, emeddable browser under a BSD license.

Let me know if your're one of those people.
Friday, January 17th, 2003
- KWQString.cpp begins.

The KWQ code is difficult to follow since there are three string classes, one for NextStep, one for CoreFoundation, and one for KWQ. I will not be needing the the first two. The QTextCodec class translates itself to a CoreFoundation string in order to encode and decode. In fact, the transcodeFrom methods are really implemented in QString.

If, when assigned to QString, the data is not copied, then I'd like to move the actual transcoding into QString where I can allocate read directly from and write directly to the underlying character buffer. KWQString.cpp now complies, less the allocation functions, and the transcode from Unicode function.

The calls to Xerces to transcode are simple enough to implement, I just need to find a place to put them.

Thursday, January 16th, 2003
- KWQTextCodec.cpp nears completion.

! QTextCodec::codecForLocale is the last step in KWQTextCodec.cpp but it is confusing. This method is only called once in KHTML when nothing else can be found to encode a form submission. This will happen when the none encodings accepted by the server can be found on the system, or if the server has failed to to specify which encodings it accepts.

Implementing this method is confusing because a Win32 application does not assign locale specific code pages. The Win32 API states:

The system locale determines which code page (ANSI, DOS, Macintosh) is used on the system by default. The system locale setting affects only ANSI applications, that is, applications that are not fully Unicode-compliant.
KHTML is a Unicode application. I suppose the case may be that no code pages are installed on the Win32 machine and all applications are emulating ANSI applications. Should I just return UTF8, rather than call GetOEMCP()?

Since this is only called to submit a form, and since form submission has far more dependences, I am going to defer the implementation of this function.

! I feel that it is fair to say that KWQTextCodec.cpp can now do without the asterisk next to its name in the list of ported files. There is one issue regarding this file but it has been documented. Hopefully another developer with a better understanding of I18N will be able to propose a solution to this problem. Once I complete the wrappers to Xerces, I can move on to the next file.

Added High Relevance which will contain the links that I am visiting most frequently at any point in the project. I keep this page open during development to take notes and to follow the links I've collected.

I am growing ever more impressed with SourceForge, is offerings and implementation. It was a little confusing at first, probably because there is so much there on offer. It is all starting to make sense now.

! I am gathering up the private e-mail discussions I've had about this project and culling them for a project mission statement.

Wednesday, January 15th, 2003
Using this file (character-sets) and Perl I created static lookups table to map MIBenums to character encoding names. This to implement QTextCodec::codecForMib. It also helps me to quickly validate that a requested codec exists. I wrote the lookup functions in C and packaged them in their own DLL so that, in theory, the DLL could be updated separately should the database change.

Win32 provided a transcoder API. The database of available codecs is kept in the Windows registry. Native support, for smaller binary and better performance. Rather than sift through this API myself, I am going to statically link to the Xerces C++ Parser. Xerces has C++ interface for transcoding, with an implementation that uses the Win32 transcoding API. They have sorted out the details of reading the registry and invoking the appropriate API functions.

The Unicode resources I've encountered:

A Tutorial on Character Code Issues - Jukka Korpela
(Well written tutorial)
developerWorks Unicode Forms of Unicode
Unicode Home Page
Global Software Development Guidelines
(Path to an out of print MS manual on I18N).
Microsoft Global Software Development
International Text Display
(Platform SDK)
! I still have not sought an API method that will give me the character encoding for the locale. This is required to implement QTextCodec::codecForLocale.

I am using an STL map to keep a hash of codec objects that have been created, although it's a pity that I must since they will only be wrappers around Xerces transcoders.

The STL resources I have encountered:

SGI - Standard Template Library Programmer's Guide
Rogue Wave STL Tutorial
GNU Common C++ Reference Manual
Dinkum C++ Library
An Overview of The Standard Template Library
MSDN - Standard C++ Library Reference
Standard Template Library Reference
Google Directory of STL (All the rest)
I am surprised that the inclusion of <map> did not drastically slow down the compile time of KWQTextCodec.cpp.

Tuesday, January 14th, 2003
My raw thoughts form this development journal. My free programming will be spent today creating this site and configuring SouceForge.

KHTML compiled. Visual C++ works. Probably because KHTML makes use of Qt, and therefore follows Qt's coding standards. Qt is cross-platform, so KHTML has inherited cross-platform traits. Many people are quick to suggest a flavor of Win32 GCC, but it is unnecessary. It misses the point. Native means that it does not require any form of UNIX abstraction layer.

There are a few classes in KHTML that do not compile. KHTML also has one class that depends on pthreads, which means that a pthreads like wrapper to Win32 threads is necessary.

The KWQ classes are the real chore. KWQ is built on top of NextStep. It is written in Objective C++. It depends on an OS X library, CoreFoundation, for Unicode support, URLs, and some other basics.

Last night I began to go though and port all of the KWQ classes, starting with the basic classes and working my way up. I would like to do without CoreFoundation, which provides services that are already provided by Win32.

The Unicode support is the first to port, and has been quite simple so far, since the Unicode support in Win32 is fairly strong. QChar simple calls the wide variant of the standard C library to determine the digitness or casedness of characters. I suspect that there may be caveats to these functions.

Here's another link to info about Alan, with another e-mail address:

http://sourceforge.net/users/agutier/

http://sourceforge.net/sendmessage.php?touser=687087

[thjay]

352. Here's a picture of Alan

http://blog.meetup.com/108/members/1116141/

Carolab - do you really think Alan is an important link? I found this a few days ago. His sight obviously was taken down after everyone started reading his resume. I've been trying to keep up with your amazing research but I'm not worthy. How do you do it? I found a link to an old blog of his, but discovered tonight that it has also been removed. Then I found this. I think it's new. I haven't had a chance to read it but maybe there is something here. I wish I would have save the old one.

http://www.bloglines.com/blog/anders?subid=943730

[Carolab]

353. Well, he IS in Michigan and IS a developer

I find that rather interesting, don't you? Also, the fact that Judo and The Engine Room are missing. Do you think he knows about all of this stuff we're doing here? I wonder what would happen if someone contacted him? He is still posting entries in the Ann Arbor weblogger meetup room as of November 16, 2004. Of course that was before Mr. Watson died. I wonder if he's still around? Want to e-mail him?

Posted Nov 16, 2004 at 5:20 PM

Alan Gutierrez
Group Organizer

1 Message
Joined Oct 27, 2004 When is an optimal meeting time for the Weblogger Meetup Group. My Mondays are free, but otherwise it is immediately after work or late evening.

Thoughts?

http://blog.meetup.com/108/members/?memberId=1116141

[thjay]

354. engrm.com was taken down shortly after his resume was posted

but does that really mean anything? He blogs alot under the name blogometer. There were new cached hits when I did a search tonight. I went to archive.org to see what was still there for engrm. I found some interesting blogs that are now gone where he mixed political talk with his techy talk. I'm sorry now I didn't download the link. I thought it would be pretty interesting to connect him to Carlos Guiterrez who is was also worked in MI with Kellog. I couldn't find a link though.

[thjay]

355. Just search archive.org again

for the blog I had previously bookmarked. I got this message.

has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt.

[Carolab]

356. Want to e-mail him?

I'm too chicken.

http://sourceforge.net/sendmessage.php?touser=687087

I don't think the other one works ([e-mail])

[kk897]

357. sorry, that's what I was trying to tell you about

I should've posted my links.

[blacklabsdad]

362. CyberNet Group in GR is simply not related was my only point.

They are laughingly international, BTW. Two employees in S Africa, a few in Australia, a recently (Q2 04)purchased data center in the Phillipines and a small data center in China....all of whom have now lost their jobs due to the criminal undertakings of Watson, Horton, Mast et al. really an attempt to obtain financing from international sources which ar eless stringent in their fraud safeguards, at least in China and the Phillipines...actually 1 day after the HQ was raided, someone at CNG transferred a Million bucks to a Hong Kong bank account, obviously trying to hide the fraudulent proceeds of their scams....they sent a whole bunchof money to other bank accounts all over the US too....f-ing crooks...

Besides being a past employee that got out when I knew they were crooks( took all of 2 months), I have done all of their domestic background checks for new employees for about 3 years now. I know every person they have hired in the last 3 years, down to their resume guys...this is not the evoting company....

Just read the 55 page motion filed jointly by the IRS, FBI and US Postal Inspectors in this case....basically they were seting up shell companies to fake the purchase of servers for their data centers, obtaining financing from banks for these fake orders and pocketing the cash, only after falsifying money orders, tax statements, accounts receivable statements and swapping out serial numbers on the same servers, many of which were shells with no guts....living the high life while swindling more and more banks for greater amounts of money, and in the end we all will pay through higher interetst rates to recoup the banks losses.....nice people.....you can get the pdf here..www.woodtv.com

No mention(obviously) of evoting issues, as they aren't even in the software development business other than as a boutique website designer and a litle companyin Cali they bought in 02 called Halcyon software..but I'm sure the conspiracy addicted will take evidence of absence as being proof that it's really being investigated by Mulder and Scully on the down low.....chuckle(heads)

Wrong company guys, as regards the voting irregularities....

What is amusing is the knee jerk tangent of someohow pulling into it the Amway families and some grand conspiracy by them or the Religous Right (whoever they are) or whatever someone else dreams up next to fuel the choruses of angry bleating from people devoid of common sense but not hatred....and this from the "tolerant" party....ha....when people are motivated by hate there is no limit to the lengths they wil lgo to support their own delusions.....just look at STalin....

and no I am neither in my 50's nor have a schizophrenic relative...I just know a lot of stuff.....

I have no doubt there were some evoting problems....no new system is fool proof and from what I've read there are some really boneheaded people in the businesses that make then, as I've seen reports of all kinds of glitches, users having admin access, maximum vote totals being reached and then not counting votes...etc etc....

How does someone build such a large piece of hardware and have such a small vote capacity??? The design on these things are for sh1t is what it sounds like to me....

I'd rather go with paper/punchcards anyways..evoting is simply too tempting for skullduggery by BOTH sides and rife with potential glitches....now, will it get better? Probably...much better very quickly? I doubt it.

[vanboggie]

363. If you don't know what the Religious Right is

...and you live in Grand Rapids, look about you. As for its clout, it is about money. Case in point, how did the best local hospital get eaten up by the mega-corporate facility that provides inferior care? A certain billionaire executive gets a US Congressman in another state to tack something on to a bill in Congress allowing the monopoly - just one time. Poof - health care in West Michigan goes to hell because one man wants it that way and has the money and political clout to do so. But I digress...

I agree that CyberNET most likely wasn't involved in the election fraud - and there was election fraud. The two were linked before we knew it was the GR Cybernet that was raided. Put that together with the Amway link and Betsy D. cozying up with Rove just before the election, and it plants questions.

Why do I believe Cybernet was not involved? Easy - Dubya's handlers wouldn't have the allowed the FBI to investigate. Period. So in a round-about way, I agree with you on that point.

I do take issue with you dissing those of us who are convinced that the Bush crime family is in power through theft. Take some time away from walking your dog and do a little research on the election fraud. You just may be convinced that the Religious Right did not put the idiot back in office. His "mandate" is as legitimate as his Supreme Court selection in 2000 was. You need to quit listening to the religious "right" in GR. This corrupt administration is a major threat to our democracy.

[Carolab]

364. And we should trust you...

why?

You jump in here and insult us and essentially tell us to "get over it" and that we are all on the wrong track here.

If that were true, why in the hell would it matter to you? Why say anything at all? Particularly because you think the folks at CyberNet were "evil".

This is an interesting statement from the report posted above, don't you agree?

"The FBI document says Mrs. Watson was deeply involved in creating "dummy" corporations, manipulating employees into breaking the law, and transferring millions of dollars in and out of bank accounts in a laundering scheme."

[Name removed]

365. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

368. DU rules state you are not supposed to go digging up info on posters

I know nothing about Blacklabsdog, but #1, you cannot be sure this is the same guy, and #2 with the "big umbrella' here, a moderate would probably be welcome. Thinking people's political beliefs evolve and are refined as they learn. Even if this is the same blacklabsdog he might be leaning more to the left now than when he posted this "ad".

The only reason I am writing this is because I was trashed 2 weeks ago in a similar way, by having my words twisted to mean the opposite of what I said. I consider myself a moderate progressive, BTW, which is as far right-wing as I have ever been in my life.

[Carolab]

366. Carlos M. Gutierrez

http://www.hispaniconline.com/magazine/2004/jan_feb/CoverStory/

Father, Pedro, was a Cuban pineapple producer, moved his wife, Olga, and children to Miami.

Carlos was raised in Miami. He has a brother, per the article above, Pablo, living in Miami and working as a construction contractor, although I cannot find information about him.

[Carolab]

367. Okay, guys, WRONG CYBERNET!

Pick it up from here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x114254

[BlueDog2u]

369. Thanks, Carolab n/t

[indigonation]

371. No SEC Filings for CyberNET Group et al...

ie Cyberco Holdings/CyberNet Engineering/CyberNet Group/Stryon/Halycon
the Grand Rapids/Barton Watson digs. In addition, this has been out for several days, but the most detailed article regarding the fraud investigations. http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2642357&nav=0RceTm0K

But there are SEC Filings for CyberNet Systems in Ann Arbor, MI and SEC Filing for Immersion/San Jose, CA, ie your links to Texas, NASA, Charles J. Cohen and Charles J. Jacobus. Compare dates and addresses and numbers in the SEC Filings and Corporate addresses. They DO appear to be the same company, but I can't tell if they sold it to Immersion, or it is the same business. This Immersion, *IF* connected to CyberNet Systems appears to engineer digital touch technology. This is a suprise when double checking my links, so I haven't connected the Immersion thing anywhere in the picture.

So I am fairly convinced that the GR Cybernet Group is not related to the Cybernet Systems Corp. Furthermore, nobody seems to be able to find a connection to the Florida/CyberNet Ventures connection. Yet.

This conclusion is from reading collective amount of research over two weeks as the fraud story unfolded and the evidence came in. Don't know about other people, but I have gained so much knowledge about some of the dirty little innerworkings of the * Cartel to last a lifetime.

[berniew1]

370. So this is basically about big Financial Scandle funneling funds to GOP

So this is basically about big Financial Scandle funneling funds to GOP?