A Legal Solution

[tinfoil_beret]

The Senator contends that the use of DRE voting without an auditable paper record recording the intent of the voter denies these voters the right to vote and violates Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution and standards for fair and transparent elections. According to Section Two of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, the Senator argues that the representation for the states using DRE voting without auditable paper records be reduced by the proportion of the population of these states.

*Using the proportion of counties using DRE voting (given by http://www.thestandard.com/movabletype/datadigest/archives/000499.php), rounding up to the nearest whole number, disqualifies the following numbers of electoral votes for the following states:

Alabama, 1;
Arkansas, 1;
Colorado, 1;
Delaware, 3;
Florida, 7;
Georgia, 15;
Indiana, 6;
Iowa, 2;
Kansas, 1;
Kentucky, 8;
Louisiana, 2;
Maryland, 10;
Michigan, 1;
Mississippi, 1;
New Jersey, 12;
New Mexico, 5;
North Carolina, 6;
Ohio, 2;
Pennsylvania, 3;
South Carolina, 7;
Tennessee, 6;
Texas, 2;
Virginia, 5;
West Virgina, 1;
Wyoming, 1

Note that California voters in counties using DRE voting had the right to alternatively use paper ballots. Since this does not deny any voters the right to have their votes counted, California retains all of its 55 electoral votes.

This disqualification of electoral votes reduces the total of qualified electoral votes by 109, leaving a total number of qualified electoral votes of 429. This number reduces the majority to 215 electoral votes.

Therefore, the presidential candidates receive the following qualified electoral votes:

Bush/Cheney... AL, 8; AK, 3; AZ, 10; AR, 5; CO, 8; FL, 20; ID, 4; IN, 5; IA, 5; KS, 5; LA, 7; MS, 5; MO, 11; MT, 3; NE, 5; NV, 5; NC, 9; ND, 3; OH, 18; OK, 7; SC, 1; SD, 3; TN, 5; TX, 32; UT, 5; VA, 8; WV, 4; WY, 2

Kerry/Edwards... CA, 55; CT, 7; DC, 3; HI, 4; IL, 21; ME, 4; MA, 12; MI, 16; MN, 10; NH, 4; NJ, 3; NY, 31; OR, 7; PA, 18; RI, 4; VT, 3; WA, 11; WI, 10

Thusly counted, the electoral college gives Bush/Cheney 206 electoral votes and gives Kerry/Edwards 223 electoral votes, giving Kerry/Edwards a majority and the presidency of the United States.

* The proportion of counties using DRE voting without a paper record to the total counties of each state does not necessarily reflect the true proportion of denied voters, but lacking data for the total votes cast for each state with DRE voting I had no alternative. I would suggest that using the actual proportion of votes cast with DRE to the total votes cast in each state for disqualifying electoral votes would result in the same winner.

[GetTheRightVote]

1. This information looks like a good start to it,

We should be able to stop the agru for Bush due to these facts alone.

Thank you for looking into it, anyone else have some ideals.

*******************************************************************

New Thread as follows in Activism and Events calling for action:

Emergency Anti-War-Conference, all day SAT. 12/4, NYC


"I am going to march all over downtown Wash, D.C. this weekend and go on and on about the stolen election, even if I am alone it will make me feel so much better about everything .... I can't wait to see the looks on people's faces when I walk by with my sign. I am strong, I am an American, I have rights no matter what they say, I will be free, even if it is just me, I will march."


" Power to the People "

[bemis12]

2. Oh right...

... they're going to toss out a bunch of electoral votes. Good luck with that one.

I'm holding out for space aliens abducting Bush, which is more likely than that scenario.

[tinfoil_beret]

4. Alternatives?

Regardless of the unlikelihood of our elected officials actually following the law, the Fourteenth Amendment gives a definitive recourse for addressing the disenfranchisement of voters. I'd gladly listen to more probable suggestions for rectifying our immediate dilemma before they crown the fuhrer.

Let's hope the aliens want him for one reason or another. :eyes:

[Cowboy Joe2k]

105. We Must band together and Defeat the "Super Voter" Race.

"I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." - Walden O'Dell, Diebold's CEO in a fundraising letter to Republicans, Fall 2003. O'Dell and other Diebold Senior Executives are Republican "Pioneers", which is the designation you get when you raise over $100,000. Brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich co-founded ES&S, another voting machine company, before Bob became President of Diebold Election Systems. His brother Todd is a Vice President of ES&S, the #2 vote machine maker, and is also a "Pioneer". According to campaign finance records at OpenSecrets.org, of the over $240,000 given by Diebold’s directors and chief officers to political campaigns since 1998, all has gone to Republican candidates or party funds. Is that partisan enough for you? Well, what about calling them unethical?

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm

The People with the paper ballots had the most rights as Voters. they could have their votes recounted if necessary. The voters that have the least rights were the ones that used the paperless ballots. the Diebold Employees or the "Super Voters" as I will call them from now on.

There is you class split.

Under the 14th amendment each states electorate must be proportionately reduced by the number of the "Disenfranchised"

The second option would be to call the registered voters who used the paperless machines back to the poles to vote for what would be their first time. ON PAPER BALLOTS.

All people Black and white Should stand up and restore Democracy. No matter who wins, we must restore democracy! Bush should be behind my second solution it would put an end to the dispute. and if there was no tampering, he will win, but you can not unify the country otherwise.

P.S. Why do you think the Press was kept out of the central tabulator room as Diebold counted the votes?

[Cowboy Joe2k]

118. We must go out and protest. Me must demand they give us the right

to Vote. We have had the right to vote taken away from us.

The Only way a democrat will ever win any election is if they Reform the Voting machines. and they need to do it NOW!

We the People of the United States Demand you give us our rights back.

We Demand Open elections with Voter Verifiable Paper trails. We demand Auditing.

We Demand the 14th Amendment right to vote.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

138. They Might already have Him, we are not sure.

What is most important now is that every Community Around the World to Vote Yes or No on WAR. This is your Duty as a citizen of this planet. If all the Community's around the world do this at once, think of the History to be made!!! not just these same old day time drama's But True and Lasting Freedom!!! This is the only way that there will ever be hope for peace.

Otherwise they will just keep spitting this crap at you till you fall back asleep.

Here is our strike for you, make this world a better place, or we will stop having babies. We wish you would stop killing them. Your Golbady gook hatred Machine is not what we the inelegant people of earth want you programing our Kids with.

[Straight Shooter]

3. I say throw out Florida votes for prior bad acts, and make Ohio vote again

Conduct another election under the watchful eyes of the world.

What is equitable and fair is rarely practiced, especially not with the pogostick morality of those running the show.

I like your idea, tinfoil_beret. In an ideal world it would work. In an ideal world, we wouldn't even be discussing this, though.

:hi:

[tinfoil_beret]

6. Hmm...

Unfortunately, a re-vote would probably not draw a significant population representing the intent of the people, and this lack of interest would severely skew the outcome.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

104. sure it would send it across Fox News, Come in and Vote.

They could send letters to the people who were registered to vote in the specific county that used Paperless Machines. Come in, and Vote!

If the machines truly were not tampered with, then the result will be the same, and every one can take con fort in our election process.

Why not Barret, only the people who used paperless machines would be effected. after all they are the ones who have been disenfranchised.

This is exactly the moment that the 14th amendment was meant for. The Human population of America has been Under represented. it's time that all who bleed red come together as brothers and sisters.

The will try hard to silence the truth, they continually bury these topic's from you, don't let them gag Democracy.

Keep this thread kicked, and tell Kerry if he wants to win, If he want to take back Democracy, If he wants to Breath Life back into Democracy he should stand up and fight now!

[tinfoil_beret]

107. Unfortunately...

People might consider it an annoyance, especially since so many of them already waited in line for hours on November 2. You overestimate their patience if you think they'll flock to the polls a second time.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

109. They should Consider it a patriotic duty.

We Should declare a National Holiday. We could call it Voting day! what a thought!!!! Don't you want to go out and vote on the first "Voting day" In history!!! It is the only way to be sure they are afforded equal rights. Beside It would be the first time they have been able to vote for a president in over 8 years!! Cause we all know the 2000 didn't count because he was appointed by the people that his father appointed to their position.

Seriously even if it does not overturn the 04 election, We need to fix this by the next election. We need it Standardized, and we need a verifiable paper trail. and we need Non-Partisan Auditing.

The "super voting" has got to stop and the People have to be represented. May be you don't want Arnold in 08. May be you don't want Hillery. wouldn't you prefer it is you that makes that choice???? We must do every thing we can to restore democracy. Has not the House said that it would Back the fight if just one Senator would join it??I Think Kerry Should spear head this issue.

I truly believe Kerry could jump on this in a second. He could lead this country out of the trying. I think the reason he doesn't is Because he is playing hot potato with Iraq because it is a ticking time bomb.

You see right now the U.S. Population sees Iraq through Rose colored glasses. At lease not when the $#!+ hits the fan we will know who's ass it came from.

If democracy is to Live, we need to press this issue. establish Universal machines produced by non partisan groups. With a voter verify-able Printing tape, and there needs to be Audits. and if discrepancies are found, the investigation should look deeper!

One More kick From your night owl contributor to this post and I'm so tired..... I got to sleep now. Good night.

[Achilz]

7. Sour Grapes

I voted for Kerry. I'm a Democrat. I can't stand Bush.

But, Bush was elected president by a system that we've used for hundreds of years; a system that will probably never be changed. It's far from perfect; it will never be perfect. Should it be perfect? That would be nice. As an American, I have an interest in ensuring that the system is as perfect as it can be -- so that it's fair to ALL Americans, Democrat and Republican.

But, all this nonsense about a recount, and unfairness, and nullification, is just hurting the Democratic party -- as well as any hope of ever regaining control of the Presidency, the Senate or the House of Representatives.

Fixing the electoral system is not, and cannot be, a partisan issue. If you want to review and fix the system, then start by acknowledging the President's legitimacy. Bush won, get over it. Then, find out if there is something wrong that should be fixed before the next election. This one is over. Why did Kerry lose? Because he didn't WIN.

Calling for recounts is sour grapes. And, as a Democrat, I wish that other Democrats would stop this unproductive nonsense and figure out how to actually win the next election.

[noonriser]

9. Get lost, you're not wanted here.

Go back to Free Republic where you belong.

[Donailin]

14. yeah seriously

it's one thing to feel hopeless and know that we're trying to save the titanic here, but it's quite another to say "bush won get over it"

Bush stole the election, I will never believe otherwise, just as I will never believe that Sadam knocked down the twin towers or that Sadam was gonna nuke us or poison us if we didn't attack him first.

I'd tell you to fuck off and get lost, but apparently you already are.

[buzzard]

19. Booted by Free Republic

I agree, I was at the freep yesterday and there was a discussion that I responded to. All I said was in my opinion *s regime had many parallels to fascism including fraudulent elections and scapegoating. (many others) Then all of a sudden I had everyone calling me a troll and other nasty names. The moderator came on and now I have no posting privileges. So much for free speech. I was told to get over it my guy had lost. All I can do now is protest when Bush comes here. I am a Canadian hoping to see justice done.

[genieroze]

46. Does it make you feel better that you know your leader isn't B*sh

Wish ours wasn't

[Straight Shooter]

24. LOL! "apparently you already are"

And in more ways than one.

:toast:

[Achilz]

54. Dems have to be smarter than this

I hope the people that posted the replies don't have any say in the policies of the Democratic party, because if you do, then we're looking at an even more religious nut job occupying the White House in 2008.

The Democratic Party needs to move forward and find a message that WORKS. The Kerry/Gore model DOES NOT WORK! I voted for them. I thought Kerry would put us back on the right track. But, they lost and this time the Dems lost big.

What good does it do to be screaming about "stealing the election" when you have no power? You can be as right as the Pope, and you're just spitting into the wind if you don't have power.

The Democratic party needs to get someone elected. I'd be happy with a 50/50 split in the House at this point. We have lost total control of the law making process. This is really, really, really bad. It's a waste of time and energy to fight the election results. Bush won. He's in power, and we have got to get our sights set on defeating him and his party in 2006/08.

Bush is a dishonest, stupid, immoral, duplicitous hypocrite. I think most Americans recognize that. But, if Bush is so wrong, how come Kerry didn't win? In fact, how come Kerry didn't win in a landslide? This is what we should be debating. It's a waste of time to argue some lame ass theory about how we're going to nullify electoral votes and completely change the outcome of the election. I will buy a beer for everyone on this board if Kerry occupies the White House in January.

Call me defeatist if you want. I think you're delusional. And, what's worse, I think that all this BS about challenging the election results is going to make the Dems look worse. Sour grapes.

[Donailin]

68. Au Contraire, Alchilz

"Call me defeatist if you want. I think you're delusional. And, what's worse, I think that all this BS about challenging the election results is going to make the Dems look worse. Sour grapes"

Take a look around you, not only are we defeated, we are all deluded to think that we are not at the point of no return. Have a care, Alchilz, the system is completely corrupted now. There are no more Bobby Kennedy's out there, the playing field won't be level again in our lifetime.

[Joe Chi Minh]

75. You're not defeatist and

you're not delusional. You are from the dark side.

Let's get one thing absolutely, pellucidly clear: Kerry/Edwards won in a landslide. It is now no longer conjecture, but proven. As a matter of fact, the margin of their victory has you people sh*tting yourselves. Hence the ludicrous talk of Hilary as the next Dem candidate for the Oval Office. You know that the time has now past when she would have won in a landslide. Divide and rule.

Bye....

[emcguffie]

89. never another straight election

Bush and Cheney stole the election. It's that simple. It's impossible that what happened was an accident.

If we don't stop them now, there will never be another straight election, because they will control the elections and the machines. Yeah, just wait another four years, no matter how many people vote for the Dem it won't make any difference. Don't you get it? Or do you get it?

[tinfoil_beret]

10. Opinions are like (fill in the blank).

Guess what? They already fixed the electoral system. I can't in good conscience believe that even half of the projected numbers actually voted for Pres. Bush. It's inconceivable! The probability that the majority of voters elected to retain such a corrupt and failing administration is so infinitesimal that it relegates it to the realm of impossibility. Of course they fixed it. They rigged it any way they could. And you accept that?

If you want to roll over and play dead, that's your prerogative. Plenty of people here see otherwise. You get over it!

[Eloriel]

11. Um, you've got a little catching up to do, I'd say. Start here:

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

[shraby]

13. Bye bye

:hi:

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NVMojo]

29. troll fecker, suck off!

You don't even have the facts straight. We haven't voted on emachines for a century. Clueless.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Razorback_Democrat]

33. So you "know" there was no fraud? No "irregularities" all on the "Up and

up"

can anyone smell something here??????

[genieroze]

49. maybe

http://www.whatsmells.com/main.html

[Razorback_Democrat]

34. Freeper???

just wondering

[Achilz]

58. No, just an interloper

I want Dems to win, and I don't believe the discussion on this board is going to help WIN!!!

[genieroze]

70. Let me tell you something

we are never going to win again with rigged voting. eom

[genieroze]

45. If you are a democrat I'm Santa Clause

Here is a real conservative for you.
Read this so you know why we are ticked off
http://www.chuckherrin.com/ConservativeEmpathy.htm

[Achilz]

57. Well then, I'll see you at Christmas

I want an iPod.

[Debbie13]

47. People who steal elections don't deserve to be called our President

[Joe Chi Minh]

96. And people

who countenance it are moral bankrupts.

[coreystone]

69. Do you have any link that would verify your assertion, that...

"Bush was elected president by a system that we've used for hundreds of years"!!! ?

I realize that Ben Franklin discovered electricity around that time! :-)

I certainly didn't realize that all of the "electronic voting machines" have been around for nearly close to that time period.

I am sure you would be able to enlighten all of us concerning your "one blanket covers all" notion that THIS system has been around for as long as you mention.

"Paper ballots, manual counting, and unbiased observation of the counting, reporting, and tabulation of the count"!!!

:-)

[SmokingJacket]

99. "..probably never be changed..."

You big silly, you! It's already been changed: electronic voting machines with UNDISCLOSED software and massive voter disenfranchisement, for two.

Dems SHOULD have dealt with these issues before the election, granted.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

106. This is the only way to breath life into democracy.

Even if not for this election, And it is a totally Strong posiblity that it could work for this one; then We must make our Officals fix it buy the next one. This is not about Grapes. Grapes Make wine.

We must fix the system.

"I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." - Walden O'Dell, Diebold's CEO in a fundraising letter to Republicans, Fall 2003. O'Dell and other Diebold Senior Executives are Republican "Pioneers", which is the designation you get when you raise over $100,000. Brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich co-founded ES&S, another voting machine company, before Bob became President of Diebold Election Systems. His brother Todd is a Vice President of ES&S, the #2 vote machine maker, and is also a "Pioneer". According to campaign finance records at OpenSecrets.org, of the over $240,000 given by Diebold’s directors and chief officers to political campaigns since 1998, all has gone to Republican candidates or party funds. Is that partisan enough for you? Well, what about calling them unethical?

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm

The People with the paper ballots had the most rights as Voters. they could have their votes recounted if necessary. The voters that have the least rights were the ones that used the paperless ballots. the Diebold Employees or the "Super Voters" as I will call them from now on.

There is you class split.

Under the 14th amendment each states electorate must be proportionately reduced by the number of the "Disenfranchised"

The second option would be to call the registered voters who used the paperless machines back to the poles to vote for what would be their first time. ON PAPER BALLOTS.

All people Black and white Should stand up and restore Democracy. No matter who wins, we must restore democracy! Bush should be behind my second solution it would put an end to the dispute. and if there was no tampering, he will win, but you can not unify the country otherwise.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

117. Mr. Achilz that's the problem, we have figured out how to win the

Next election. and this is it grape man.

[peacetalksforall]

136. Some people are acquisent with silence, some like you would let

the bank keep the money if they 'mis-applied' the software or fooled around with the hardware.

You are very meek in your philosophy and strong in your words.

We need fighters here.

[Wiley50]

5. I Like It! Any Senator in Particular?

Kerry maybe. Have you sent this to him or his attorneys? Have you tried to float this balloon elsewhere?
Give it a try. It detours around the recount issue completely.

[tinfoil_beret]

8. I'm clueless

No, I haven't suggested this elsewhere. I don't have the vaguest notion of who in Congress might welcome, support or further this idea. Would Senator Kerry consider this? Does anybody from Massachusetts want to suggest it to him? Go for it!

[bleever]

12. Clarification please. Can you give us the text on the reduced

representation?

I had thought it referred to representation in the House of Representatives. I'll try to find it myself, but please post if you have it at hand.

Thanks for your post.

[tinfoil_beret]

15. DOH!

You're right. I guess I completely misread Section Two. Why did I understand it to refer to representation of electors? The text of the amendment mixes voter suppression, votes for different offices and representation. Considering the context in which an article I had read framed Section Two, I might blame it on word association.

Reading it again, it clearly refers to representation in Congress, which would invalidate my suggestion.

And here I thought I had something. :crazy:

[bleever]

16. I think you've still got something; loss of congressional seats is a BIG

sword to have hanging over your head, and may be a tactical point of leverage in this process.

Keep thinking! Keep that beret shiny! :thumbsup:

[tinfoil_beret]

17. HOLD THE PHONE!

My calculations were correct. If the representation in Congress falls, so do the number of electoral votes, according to Article Two, Section One.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress..." (emphasis added)

I did have something after all. :crazy:

[bleever]

18. Would that reduce the number of electors for the current election? n/t

[bemis12]

20. It's a nutty idea

that isn't happening. Here's the text on the 14th Amendment being discussed:

"But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state."

Now, let's hear your arguement that the absence of the paper trail is equal to not having the right to vote.

You KNOW this isn't happening. Focus on the fraud. It's the only way in.

[tinfoil_beret]

22. Rebuttal

The DRE machines without paper trails, when combined with the easily compromised tabulation software, makes auditing the vote impossible. If you can't verify the votes when irregularities show problems with the tally, this effectively denies the right to vote of the portion of the population forced to use these machines. To this fact there is no argument.

[bleever]

23. Yes; Bush v. Gore was based on "equal protection" concerns, which

equates to having your vote counted. Unequal protection = preventing some votes from being counted.

[tinfoil_beret]

42. Aha!

So we have a precedent!

If I recall correctly, the USSC characterized their decision in Bush v. Gore as a one-shot decision. However, at least one court has used it as a precedent. (I don't recall the exact race, but I believe it had to do with a state representative race in 2004.)

[Her Blondness]

98. Bush v. Gore would be a precedent in our favor!

COMMON SENSE would tell you that equal protection means having all votes counted. BUT in Bush v. Gore the SC twisted the notion to suit its purposes just to install dubya in office. As Scalia bizarrely interpreted equal protection, it means having all votes counted in the same way with the same standards. It seems to me that Bush v. Gore actually supports your case since there are different standards for counting electronic votes and paper ballots.

Go for it!!!!

[Cowboy Joe2k]

103. All Humans must band together to save Democracy.

"I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." - Walden O'Dell, Diebold's CEO in a fundraising letter to Republicans, Fall 2003. O'Dell and other Diebold Senior Executives are Republican "Pioneers", which is the designation you get when you raise over $100,000. Brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich co-founded ES&S, another voting machine company, before Bob became President of Diebold Election Systems. His brother Todd is a Vice President of ES&S, the #2 vote machine maker, and is also a "Pioneer". According to campaign finance records at OpenSecrets.org, of the over $240,000 given by Diebold’s directors and chief officers to political campaigns since 1998, all has gone to Republican candidates or party funds. Is that partisan enough for you? Well, what about calling them unethical?

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm

The People with the paper ballots had the most rights as Voters. they could have their votes recounted if necessary. The voters that have the least rights were the ones that used the paperless ballots. the Diebold Employees or the "Super Voters" as I will call them from now on.

There is you class split.

Under the 14th amendment each states electorate must be proportionately reduced by the number of the "Disenfranchised"

The second option would be to call the registered voters who used the paperless machines back to the poles to vote for what would be their first time. ON PAPER BALLOTS.

All people Black and white Should stand up and restore Democracy. No matter who wins, we must restore democracy! Bush should be behind my second solution it would put an end to the dispute. and if there was no tampering, he will win, but you can not unify the country otherwise.

[tinfoil_beret]

21. It certainly should!

Section Two of The Fourteenth Amendment is clear. Section One of Article Two of the Constitution is clear...

"...Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress..."

The Senate of the new Congress will count the votes. The DRE machines make a true count impossible, thereby effectively denying citizens of their right to vote. We haven't even figured in disproportionate number of voting machines, "lost" voter registrations, surreptitiously denied absentee ballots, voting place misdirection and a whole slew of other well-documented dirty tricks favoring the incumbent. Therefore, this situations changes the representation entitled to the States in the new Congress. Of course, I can't speak for the process by which the Congress would depose Representatives or how long this would take. However, the situation does change the number of electoral votes entitled to each State in this election.

I admit this is all a legal quagmire, but it has (constitutionally) legal merit. It also avoids issues involved in a recount which the DRE machines make impossible.

Would it fly? I don't know. I imagine it would cause quite the scene. Could the threat of losing seats lead the States to rectify obvious problems in the electoral process? Could the threat of giving up seats lead Senators and Representatives to pressure Pres. Bush to concede?

Difficulties aside, could this scenario offer the only true means for saving Democracy? You decide.

[bleever]

25. Yes again; the new Congress is the one that validates the vote. I've been

having the phrase "constitutional crisis" going through my head these last few hours.

And an election challenge will, given the expected response, precipitate a constitutional question (maybe crisis) of one kind or another. And such things, if contemplated, must be undertaken with great attention to timing and detail.

And at the same time, it must be obviously fair and necessary to any American.

Aside from the unlikeliness of this scenario, what thoughts do people have about the procedural issues?

[txindy]

28. Well, off the top of my head, I see the inevitable uproar from the R party

OTOH, I see that same party bashing and bullying its own over the past few weeks to the point where some may be so relieved at the prospect of putting the neocons out of power that they'd vote for Kerry to achieve that end.

Of course, I may be projecting. ;)

[bleever]

30. Well, now, you might, but that's...Okay. And about that "buyer's remorse"

that some folks are experiencing now: maybe that's another good reason to let this election fester a tiny bit before making a move.

And as for that picture of * with his fly open, in monkey posture, I have to admit that I can't get an image out of my head where a tiny voice is shouting in *'s earpiece: "Chimp! Pants, see?"

[txindy]

32. There's something else

Buyer's remorse will play no small role in the outcome, IMO, but there's another reason to delay until the latest date possible: pardons. If this were a perfect world (we wouldn't be having this conversation, but...), I'd want Junior ousted literally a moment before Kerry took office just so there could be no presidential pardons given out by the wrong person. ;)

There's also the not-inconsequential matter of how many global crises Junior could set off were he to see his political future ending in a few scant weeks. His father threw us into Somalia to spite Clinton, just imagine what the son would do in a fit of rage to spite Kerry. If * thinks he's secure, we're better off. If he believes he will lose his job in January, though,...

I'd wait. Until the very last possible moment, I'd wait.

[bleever]

71. That's some more good food for thought there. I'm still rankled about

the fact that Junior's dad pardoned ol' Cap Weinberger. And your point about * having a chance to wreak havoc if he feels threatened is also excellent. Makes me think of Sid Blumenthal's latest column where he mentions *'s behavior at Clinton's library. "A submarine could take this place out"??? Not the most gracious behavior for a guest to exhibit.

As we make the transition from "first they laugh at you" into "then they fight you", I wish you a warm and pleasant Thanksgiving with a healthy serving of good laughs.

[txindy]

76. You have a good one, too

We need it, I think, to prepare for what's right around the corner. I'm looking forward to the "wheels of the Gods" grabbing hold of a piece of someone very soon. A monkey's tail, for instance.

[DoYouEverWonder]

82. Any other person would be on the way to Gitmo

for threatening a President out loud, in public.

[txindy]

26. Now, see that? You did have something, after all.

Don't give up on an idea until you've worked it from every direction. You just proved that right here. Your idea wasn't exactly what you had thought it was, but it worked out to be effective, anyway. :toast:

Now, do the numbers work out to be the same or does it being Representatives rather than Electors change your previous totals?

[tinfoil_beret]

39. Good question.

As I mentioned in my footnote, the ratio of counties using paperless DRE to total counties per state does not necessarily reflect the true ratio of disenfranchised voters to eligible voters. Furthermore, the number of counties involved does not necessarily reflect the representation in Congress for that population. I merely used the above ratios for simplicity, but I would wager that a full analysis would give the election to Senator Kerry.

We might want to do further analysis of the numbers to give us a better idea of the impact on congressional representation and electoral votes and for the sake of completeness.

[txindy]

40. Considering which states fit your description, your conclusion looks valid

Populous states that were also swing states this year are the ones without paper trails, so it's probably safe to say that Kerry would win (again) in that case.

[DoYouEverWonder]

83. What about demanding a hand recount of the entire country?

Of course, we know this is impossible. That is the problem.

[NVMojo]

27. HOW MANY FREAKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO MENTION

That Las Vegas voted on ten year old emachines from Sequoia with NO PRINTERS!!!! That is where 70% of the voters in Nevada live and they are mostly Dems!! Now come on, include that in your first list. Las Vegas is part of Clark county and is the fastest growing city in the US! The rest of the counties went for Bush and they had paper trails on their new USA taxpayers paid for Sequoias. Now, in Nevada, you'd only need to screw with a few voters votes in Las Vegas, no paper trail, to steal the Nevada election for BUSH!!! Thanks.

[bleever]

31. Kick for this fine observation. n/t

[tinfoil_beret]

35. Whoa! Down, boy!

I did read about the paperless machines in Nevada, and I thought of it when I made my tabulations in the original post. I decided to go off of the data from referenced link for simplicity, and Kerry had enough votes to swing the election. But I agree. Nevada should lose some representation and therefore some electoral votes, too.

[Debbie13]

36. What about needing 270 electoral votes??

then it goes to the House of Representatives. wouldn't the Republican controlled house pick Boosh. (I hope not, but we have to look at all angles.)

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_college/faq.html


"What happens if no presidential candidate gets 270 electoral votes?

If no candidate receives a majority of electoral votes, the House of Representatives elects the President from the 3 Presidential candidates who received the most electoral votes. Each State delegation has one vote. The Senate would elect the Vice President from the 2 Vice Presidential candidates with the most electoral votes. Each Senator would cast one vote for Vice President. If the House of Representatives fails to elect a President by Inauguration Day, the Vice-President Elect serves as acting President until the deadlock is resolved in the House.
"

[txindy]

37. Doesn't the 270 come into play only if ALL the electoral votes count?

That's the number that would give a candidate the majority, but if not all of the electoral votes are valid, then the majority of the new total of electoral votes would decide the winner. Without congressional interference.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[tinfoil_beret]

41. Questionable

If a state does not send all of its electors to vote, the majority decreases. However, if Congress votes to disqualify specific votes, the situation becomes more complex. The House would vote, giving one vote per state, to decide the election.

However, if a state sends more than its constitutionally eligible electors to vote, I don't know what happens. I would suggest that the majority would decrease due to constitutional eligibility.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

108. Kick for a good point definantly.

I think this may be the case in a lot of places.

[ahyums]

38. in general I think if you are going to go down this sort of route you need

a lot more widespread public knowledge and support than you have now. I suppose part of that is implicit because you'd have to prove in a court case that electronic voting is so prone to manipulation that votes cast on it can't be trusted as votes.

All the same this sort of action would have to be last of the last resorts even if that support did exist because, imagine if it was done and by some miracle ( and it would need that because I can't see a Republican appointed judge allowing this unless there was enough proof whereby it was obvious to absolutely everyone in which case any court proceeding would be formality anyway) it was ruled in our favor and Kerry actually got to the White House off the back of it, to the average person, who has been well indoctrinated by the "must distrust lawyers unless they are prosecutors" Republican mantra this is going to look as if lawyers used technicalities to make Kerry president (the fact that that's exactly what Bush did in 2000 is almost besides the appoint - they're allowed to use lawyers to steal elections they're Republicans - and lawyers hate Republicans anyway so they must have felt that Bush really deserved it)and by extension that Kerry had stolen the election, and would make his presidency next to impossible.

[googly]

43. Don't believe absence of paper record proves fraud by itself....

I do hundreds of transactions on the internet without a paper record, and no way I can say they are all illegal.

IMHO the only thing that will void this election is PROVING IN COURT that fraud occured. And the ONLY way that will happen is if someone on the inside such as a programmer or Bush*Cheney campaign insider steps forward and has documented proof. Everything else is pissing in the wind.

[txindy]

44. But the law doesn't require your internet transactions to have a receipt

State law does provide for recounts, however, but lack of paper trails makes compliance with that law impossible, therefore... Figure it out.

[bleever]

73. And this is the exact point where the "equal protection" concern applies.

And as for Bush v. Gore supposedly not setting a precedent, I'd say first that it does, ipso facto, exist as precedent; saying other people shouldn't ever think about it again with regard to other cases is just plain silly.

And the equal protection argument doesn't depend on Bush v. Gore in the first place.

Damn, I wish I knew David Boies's contact info. I've felt bad for him ever since he was bitch-slapped by SCOTUS.

Some good thinking going on here.

[tinfoil_beret]

50. Apples to Oranges

For every transaction I have ever done on the internet, I always had the option to print out a confirmation screen, and most times I received an email confirmation, which, again, I could print for my own records.

We already have widespread documentation of "glitches" favoring the incumbent. (Those ~4000 extra votes for B/C in Gahanna, Ohio illustrate the point.) Closing the tally to observers in Franklin County(?), Ohio was illegal. Closing the polls with voters in line at Broadway and 36th(?) St. in South Phoenix, Arizona was illegal as were the other ~150 documented early closings of polls with voters still in line. The 57,000 incidents cited in the letter from Congressmen to the G.A.O. demonstrate a pervasive pattern of obstruction. If reports from BBV about the poll tapes in the trash not matching the poll tapes offered to her by the BOE prove true, there's another example of fraud. Whereas these few examples, might not account for enough votes to swing the election, the thousands of voters who gave up, due to other responsibilities, after waiting for hours on line due to misappropriation of voting machines, might have had an impact on the outcome. Don't forget a pervasive pattern of malfeasance regarding misplaced, lost and surreptitiously denied absentee and provisional ballots... The list goes on, ad infinitum....

Are we supposed to sit back and wait for the courts to prove fraud?

The scenario outlined in the original post cuts through all of the red tape. Many computer experts who have examined the specifications of the tabulation software have determined that the engineers of this software designed it without regard to security or transparency. In other words, they designed the software in such a way that one could say that is was designed for fraud. Furthermore, the statistical anomalies and irregularities show a strong probability that fraud or miscalculation did occur.

The pending recount in Ohio, a state with 7 of 88 counties using paperless DRE machines, cannot verify all of the votes. Therefore, those votes will remain in question. As such, the state denied the right of the voters who cast those votes. You can't count those votes. This violates The Fourteenth Ammendment. The Fourteenth Ammendment, in conjunction with Section One of Article Two, defines the remedy for this situation. If you apply a federal law to Ohio, you must apply it equally to all states.

If Congress ignores this law, there is no law.

[googly]

52. You are absolutely correct in listing all those occurences, but...

voter irregularities and problems are as old as hills. From what I know, there is legal recourse in STATE courts since federal elections are still handled by states. I don't believe Kerry can file lawsuits in every state and county where voting problems occurred. It has to be handled on county by county basis.

Again, I repeat my main point...which is that at national level and at Kerry/Edwards campaign level, the only way public will turn against Bush is if some insider involved in organized and pre-meditated fraud comes forward with documented proof.

[tinfoil_beret]

56. Vapor Votes

I didn't list these irregularities to suggest lawsuits as a remedy for this dilemma. Sure, voting irregularities cropped up in the past. But have they always been so widespread? In such cases, did a major upset in the election result?

I mentioned these anomalies to enforce my position that we need an immediate and sweeping resolution.

The fraud case can wait. The Ohio recount is coming up after Ohio certifies the results. As I said, Ohio cannot verify all of the votes. Can we know that the tabulations on these machines are accurate? Absolutely not. So what's the point? When the votes in the machine amount to vapor, a recount in Ohio does not guarantee that we still have a democracy.

Will the media show this side of the story? They haven't thus far. How do you expect to raise a public consensus when the public can't hear the truth? The media will tell them about the irregularities in the Ukranian election indicating signs of fraud, but they haven't said as much about our own elections.

Sure, let's wait for proof, while they erode the free press to government-sanctioned brainwashing. What does that accomplish? Your rebuttal resolves nothing.

I've outlined the only remedy I can find. Let's decide how we can do something with it.

[Carolab]

55. IT IS A PATENT VIOLATION OF THE HAVA ACT OF 2002

WHICH REQUIRES THAT THERE BE A VOTER VERIFIABLE PAPER TRAIL. LOOK IT UP.

HAVA isn't a solution
In response to the 2000 Florida debacle, Congress passed a law, the Help America Vote Act (HAVA), which mandates voting process reform in all the states. Unfortunately, many are interpreting the requirements in a way that does not provide the safeguards necessary to ensure integrity in our elections.

HAVA requires that voters be able to verify their ballots before they are cast and counted.
HAVA requires that all voting machines provide a “permanent paper record with a manual audit capacity” and that the voter must be given the “opportunity to change the ballot or correct any error before the permanent paper is produced.“

Mr. Darryl R. Wold, former chairman of the Federal Election Commission (FEC) believes that HAVA requires a voter-verifiable paper trail . Senator John Ensign (R-NV), who contributed the audit requirements now incorporated into HAVA, explains that the intent of the provision was to provide a voter-verifiable paper trail. However, many proponents of touch screen voting systems are claiming that the HAVA requirement does not mean the system must allow the voter to verify the paper record. They claim the HAVA requirements are met if the voter verifies a screen version of the ballot, and if a paper report can be printed later for audit purposes. However, if the voters cannot verify the actual audit record in the voting booth, meaningful recounts are impossible since the recount would simply be an identical re-tabulation of the original count that was in question. Since HAVA remains open to this kind of interpretation, it does not provide a solution.

More information can be found here at HAVA Information Central.

http://www.nyvv.org/issue.htm

[tinfoil_beret]

61. THANK YOU

The use of DRE machines without auditable records proves beyond any shadow of a doubt violations of this act relating to verification of voter intent. This alone provides ample cause for a resolution before the counting of electoral votes. If the states see fit to certify the results they demonstrate a blatant disregard for federal law and should lose eligible representation in the Electoral College.

[googly]

62. Just to play devil's advocate....lets say every machine printed a paper

showing how every voter voted. So the voter has a paper showing for whom he/she voted. But it still does NOT PROVE that the machine counted his vote correctly, or that the vote was added correctly at the county level, or that a fraudulent paper was not substituted for the printout given to the voter by someone handling the printed receipts. It will be impossble to ask each voter to turn in their receipts since some of them would have died, moved, or lost their receipts by the time they are asked to bring it in.

The fact is that most crime is solved by a tipster telling the cops.
Which is why we need some one from the fraud conspiracy to break ranks and provide documented proof. If that happens, the media will do the rest.

[tinfoil_beret]

63. Audit

The fact is that most crimes do not determine who the people elect to lead them.

From post #55, "HAVA requires that all voting machines provide a �permanent paper record with a manual audit capacity� and that the voter must be given the �opportunity to change the ballot or correct any error before the permanent paper is produced.�"

The auditless DRE prevents an audit. An audit of the "permanent paper record" would reveal the choice of the voters.

We already have enough cause for an immediate resolution. Should we ignore that and hope that an insider blows the whistle in the near future, before our selected president takes us in the wrong direction?

We don't need evidence of fraud at this point. We have enough evidence of obstruction and fraud or mistabulation to act.

You might contend that discarding electoral votes in proportion to the number of people denied the right to vote in order to change the outcome of the election subverts the will of the people. However, at this point, with all of the irregularities and statistical anomalies that shout trouble, we can't determine the will of the people with any certainty. They already subverted the will of the people with numerous documented counts of obstruction. We must resolve this according to the law, swiftly and immediately. Coincidentally and perhaps ironically, the legal remedy probably comes closer to the will of the people than the "official election results".

[googly]

72. One counter point:

The selection of paperless machines was the responsibilities of individual states and county election officers. I don't see how the
B/C or the K/E campaigns could be held responsible for that and
penalized for something that was out of their jurisdiction. Seems
a hard case to prove in court.

Also, if the subject machines are a problem, as I think they are,
the time to change them is BEFORE the election, not after. Rules can
not be changed post mortem.

[tinfoil_beret]

81. Non sequitur.

We don't need to place legal blame on either campaign for the failure of the states to hold fair elections. Place the blame on the states.

As I understand it, the decision in Bush v. Gore (2000) halted the recount in Florida because it used different standards to determine the intents of individual voters, in violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. Likewise, in 2004 the lack of records necessary to allow manual recounts, under the recount provisions, for votes cast with paperless DRE machines in 2004 would not allow equal treatment of those votes, ie. it would require different standards, ie. requiring the assumption that unaudited source code of the software used by the polling machines (and the tabulation software) properly recorded the intents of the voters. Those votes are, for all intents and purposes, VAPOR VOTES.

The failure of anyone to enforce the same law in previous violations, namely 2002, which, as I recall, they overturned for different reasons, and the resulting lack of precedent does not preclude the application of the law in this case.

The state cannot show a compelling interest for giving unequal protection to individual votes. The people have a compelling interest in the outcome of this election.

[Joe Chi Minh]

97. Statistics, I believe

play an enormous part in major insurance lawsuits.

Also, I hardly think that an immemorial custom of criminal conduct in public affairs constitutes an ipso facto justification for its continuance.

Though I note that you describe the farrago of fraudulent conduct across the coutry as "irregularities and problems". You seem well qualified to play the devil's advocate, since you seem to have set your bar for criminality so high.

[helderheid]

48. I love you!

I do! KICK!

[tinfoil_beret]

51. Thanks

I'll take that as a compliment. :)

[Cowboy Joe2k]

53. Elected by the People, or the Machines???

The growing number if Irregularities found increases steadily. I find it interesting that in the main stream media we herd sporadic reports of machines giving more total votes then people who actually voted. They then asserted that these facts are irrelevant because 4 thousand or 5 thousand votes would not be enough to sway the total vote count. The question that must be asked is How many machines over voted?? one by it self might not be enough to change the out come, But how many would be needed?? It is my understanding that the total vote difference in Ohio was about 100,000 (Correct me if I am wrong) Assuming that number is accurate, only approximately 10-20 machines would be required to over vote in the range of 5 to 10 thousand votes. the same can be said for Florida.

Even more troubling is this excerpt taken from www.blackboxvoting.org :

According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.

The web site www.blackboxvoting.org goes on to state that counties have flat out refused to provide information critical to guaranteeing fair elections.

with no way to audit how can any one Democrat, or Republican be sure that the President was elected by the people rather then by Rigged, or Malfunctioning Machines. If I can get a receipt for an ATM deposit, why not for a vote?

I believe that an investigation is in order. The people who say "you lost, get over it" are the biggest threat to Democracy we, the American People, both Democrats and Republicans have ever faced.

I am un-sure if throwing out the the DRE votes is a solution that every one can accept, however I think the argument is legally sound.

there is no question that the voting system needs to be reformed, and that the investigation into the fraud allegations needs to proceed with cooperation from democrats and republicans alike. stone walling the investigation as is being done in Florida only makes it seem as if they have something to hide. If the President is to have any faith from the American People he should demand an investigation of our homeland election just as he has demanded on of the U.K. The Hypocrisy is astounding and I sincerely hope that the German ruler demands an investigation of the fraud allegations in the United States before he considers the U.S. election to be valid just as the U.S. president has demanded of him.

And in answer to your question, Yes, I would be just as upset if Kerry had won through Fraud. Any time that the will of the People is trampled upon and ignored there is grave cause for concern. in 2000 the president was appointed by the Supreme Court, the justices of which were appointed by his father. In 2004 it is looking as though the president will be elected (not re-elected) by a group of rigged, or malfunctioning machines. I ask you when will be the next time a president will be elected by the people???

This is bigger then Democrats vs. Republicans. our supposed Divided culture is part of the problem. Every American weather Red, or Blue, Black or white, Blond or Brunette, should be doing everything in his or her power to assure that the election is carried out in a fair and equitable manner.

I am not a "Left wing Liberal" or a "Conspiracy theorist" I don't even consider myself a "Democrat" I am an American. And if you disagree with my assertion that the Numerous Fraud allegations should be investigated I say that you are not.

[SmileMaker]

64. Madsen: Saudis, Enron money helped pay for rigged election

Since I'm a newbie, I can't start my own thread. I think that this deserves one. I hope that JK is all over this one and ready to nail these thugs for once and for all!

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112504Mads...


By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer


November 25, 2004—According to informed sources in Washington and Houston, the Bush campaign spent some $29 million to pay polling place operatives around the country to rig the election for Bush. The operatives were posing as Homeland Security and FBI agents but were actually technicians familiar with Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S, Triad, Unilect, and Danaher Controls voting machines. These technicians reportedly hacked the systems to skew the results in favor of Bush.



The leak about the money and the rigged election apparently came from technicians who were promised to be paid a certain amount for their work but the Bush campaign interlocutors reneged and some of the technicians are revealing the nature of the vote rigging program.



There have been media reports from around the country concerning the locking down of precincts while votes were being tallied. In one unprecedented action in Warren County, Ohio, election officials locked down the facility where votes were being counted. The officials said this was in response to a Level 10 high-threat terrorist warning being issued by the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI for Warren County. George Bush won 72 percent of the vote in Warren County, much larger than his percentage of victory statewide.



The money to rig the election in favor of Bush reportedly came from an entity called Five Star Trust, largely based in Houston but a worldwide entity that is directly tied to the Saudi Royal Family. Five Star Trust was termed "a well-protected vehicle" that has been used to support both Bush and Osama bin Laden in the US and around the world.



Other money used to fund the election rigging was from siphoned Enron money stored away in accounts in the Cook Islands, which was once the base of one of the more questionable and Saudi-linked BCCI subsidiaries. Cook Islands banks also handled some of the weapons smuggling financing of the Iran-Contra scandal. A former Justice Department attorney who helped prosecute the BCCI case said the use of the Cook Islands by the Bush reelection team indicates they wanted the bank arrangements to be a "quick folding tent" operation that would cease to exist when the election was over. He said the Cook Islands was notorious for not requiring any documentation for such operations.


In fact, the Cook Islands has been a favorite location for various covert intelligence activities. This most recent use of the islands is a continuation of a scandal discovered in New Zealand in the early '90s called the "Winebox Affair." In 1992, a computer dealer named Paul White bought some secondhand computers and floppy disks from the Citibank office in Auckland, New Zealand, that had earlier sold them to a scrap dealer.



White later discovered the floppies (and 10 paper files) detailed a scheme to use the European Pacific Bank in the Cook Islands to bilk foreign governments and banks for a phony 15 percent tax bill assessed on various transactions by the Cook Islands government (at the time run by Tom Davis, a former US Army and NASA research scientist who was allegedly on the payroll of the CIA). European Pacific reaped millions of illegal dollars from the New Zealand Treasury and a number of Japanese banks, including Mitsubishi Bank. Paul White later died in a suspicious auto accident.

[tinfoil_beret]

65. Damn!

I'm out of Reynold's Wrap!

Hmm...

Are the Bush campaign books open to public inspection? $29 million is a big chunk of change. Is it traceable? If it didn't go to their operatives, where did it go? Surely they have receipts: "To secret operative impersonating a federal agent, for hacking services." Of course, on the books these transactions would be labeled differently. But surely you could identify a few million in questionable entries or receipts...

Of course, the author doesn't cite any verifiable sources. I also missed any mention of which authorities have this information and whether they are investigating. Still, I feel compelled to reserve judgement on this kooky morsel. I guess it's just right up my ally. :crazy:

[Carolab]

67. The BCCI connection

makes perfect sense, if you factor in the connections to Accenture/Enron and the connections to defense/voting

[Carolab]

66. I'll post it for you!

Thanks.

[bleever]

74. OK, tinfoil_beret, you got me goin' now...

I just emailed a short summary of this argument to David Boies, lead attorney for the Kerry campaign. Maybe he's reading it right now on his Blackberry, while his turkey gets cold! (LOL).

You'll be the first to know if I actually hear anything back.

I agree with the point that this legal approach cuts through the fog of trying to prove fraud, or quantify voter suppression, or all the other difficult to prove or quantify concerns.

[tinfoil_beret]

77. EXCELLENT

Let's hope they give it ample consideration.

How did you frame the issue?

By the way, take a look at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=79652 for another discussion on a similar train of thought.

[bleever]

78. My letter to Boies

Tried to keep it succinct.

Subj: Equal protection and 2004 recounts
Date: 11/25/2004 11:54:56 AM Pacific Standard Time

To: [e-mail]



Dear Mr. Boies,

Just a short note to bring to your attention to an argument being considered by some regarding the 2004 election.

Given that provisions for recounts are part of election law, and that some voting systems used this year provide no paper trail or other means of actually conducting a recount, voters using those systems are victim to the same kind of equal protection discrepancies cited by the court in Bush v. Gore.

The 14th Amendment further provides that states denying eligible voters the right to vote (or by extension the right to have their vote counted) shall have their representation in Congress reduced. Because the number of electors is based on congressional representation, this would directly impact the total number of electors for this election.

States won by G.W. Bush in this election disproportionately used systems that can't be recounted. These states would lose the most electors. It is quite likely that the majority of remaining, valid electors would vote for Kerry.

As an admirer of your work, I know it is most likely that this is a scenario you are already aware of. However, given the importance of making sure that this election is decided lawfully and accurately, I hope you will forgive my imposition.

Should you have any interest in further information, I am very willing to be of any assistance I can.

Thank you.

[bleever]

79. Hope I didn't sound like Karen Hughes by referring to "some". ;)

[tinfoil_beret]

80. ABSOLUTELY SUPERB!

Your letter to Mr. Boies perfectly described the issue, the law and the resolution. I don't know that I could have said it better myself! Great job!

[Cowboy Joe2k]

85. excellent letter. I would like to see this thought line continued

The buck should not stop with one person. this should be sent to any one interested in up holding the constitution. I think what must be done is clearly spelled out. I don't see how it can be contested. there is no means of verifying votes for any candidate with the use of paperless touch screen ballots.

It is entirely possible that the republicans will not like the idea, but in fact, it is not simply an idea, it is law. there is another option:

At the vary least, I would think that counties that were forced to use paperless touch screen ballots should in fact Re-vote using paper ballots and voters that were registered as of nov. 2 should be allowed to vote again.

"re-vote" ...... "vote again" what am I talking about?? in essence these people were not allowed to vote the first time if you follow the premise that a vote you can not count is not a vote at all.

the margins in some of these states are less then 10,000 votes. taking that into consideration, something as simple as one machine, or one malfunctioning memory card can make the difference.

Please keep running with this, and please keep it Kicked!!!

P.S. should my vote count the same as Die Bold's??? should Die Bold's thousands of votes count at all?? I don't think Die Bold's votes should count unless actuall register voters are the ones who placed the votes. as it stands there are so meny reports of polling places with 650 registered voters giving 6,500 votes to bush. when does theroy become fact?

(Edited to add P.S.)

[tinfoil_beret]

88. Send it to Olbermann

Send it to everybody!

[DoYouEverWonder]

84. I think you're on to something

You can tell by how many freepers showed up as soon as you posted this.

Welcome to DU :hi: Glad you're here.

PBWY
DYEW

[tinfoil_beret]

86. Yes, I did notice.

Thanks. I did notice the freepers and other diversions. It makes me wonder if I hit a nerve.

[emcguffie]

90. freepers showing up

excuse me, i don't know how this all works at all. how do you know when a 'freeper' shows up?

and what is a "kick"?

[tinfoil_beret]

91. Welcome

The label freepers refers to the type of poster you might find at freerepublic, a staunch Republican site. The types of posters who receive this label have patterns of posting comments telling us to "get over it" and other right-wing thinking.

Posters use kicks to identify threads as important, so that the threads will move to the top of the list and so that readers will see and hopefully contribute to certain discussions more frequently.

[tinfoil_beret]

87. By the way...

I continued my analysis using actual ratios of the individual state populations served by vapor vote machines to the individual state populations served by all methods of voting at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x81249

[Cowboy Joe2k]

92. kick

[Cowboy Joe2k]

93. Kick

[Cowboy Joe2k]

94. Kick

[IndyOp]

95. Kick

:kick:

[BeFree]

100. I like it!

When you consider that up until a few years ago all votes were cast on paper, and that when the constitution was written all they knew was paper but could imagine voting rights would somehow be injured, it behooves us to make use of the constitution here and now.

If anyone has links to the laws, etc. pertaining to this idea, it might be helpful to post them so that research may begin, forthwith.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

101. Kick this Kerry, This is how you will win if you ever wanted to win

at all. A lot of people are starting to wounder.

Further more, all the people take to the streets. Go tell the government in the words of Colin Powell:

"We cannot accept this result as legitimate because it does not meet international standards and because there has not been an investigation of the numerous and credible reports of fraud and abuse" -Colin Powell

[Cowboy Joe2k]

102. Kick

[Cowboy Joe2k]

110. If not for this election Kick this for our children.

If you want to restore voter confidence, we need standardized Voter Verifiable Paper Trails. This means that We get to see the results of our vote on Paper after we touch the screen. We need Audits. We can not stand by and get locked in the lobby as the Diebold cooperation decides our next president for us.

Republicans Should support this effort so that they may have faith that their vote was counted. The would be screaming left and right if the "Super Voters" had decided to chose Kerry. They will yell and scream about this in 08 if Arnold looses to Hillery.

Can't they See What has Happened? are they Blind? or just brain washed by MSM?

I'm taking to the streets with a sign to day. one last kick before I go. Don't let them Gag Democracy so that it can not cry out as they twist the knife in its back.

[floridadem30]

111. kick

[Cowboy Joe2k]

112. Kick this for Democracy, and for our Children..

[jimnm]

113. Check Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=86490&mesg_id=86670&page=

[tinfoil_beret]

115. Get real!

The states cannot constitutionally certify their vote counts when those counts have disappearing ballots, fabricated ballots and surreptitiously nullified ballots, in addition to all of the other methods they used to deny people their votes. These individual states violated the Constitution by denying equal protection to all voters. Your rebuttal means absolutely nothing. It's vapor, just like the votes cast using paperless, auditless electronic machines.

YOU GET OVER IT!

[Cowboy Joe2k]

125. I am over it. I am threw with the rule of the Select Few.

The Greater Good is at stake. if you ever hoped for world peace. This is the way you will have it. If you ever dreamed about Freedom This is how you will have it. the only way we can do it is to master the machines to prevent them from ruling us.

Don't Drop Money into kettles. Why Should you give $.80 of ever Dolor to your Community when You can Give 100% of your hard earned dolor back to your Community! Support the Mom and Pop's to not let your poor go with out food.

Do not Buy Big Fancy Presence like they want you to this season, instead, exchange Home Made gifts because those are the only ones that matter.

Buying Big Huge Expensive Gifts is how they Continue to Oppress you. Keep you as their Slave at your cash register, at least you used to think it was yours.

Bring Democracy Back to our country This is your Job this is what matters with out your right to vote all is nothing.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

114. Kick this if you Love Freedom!!!!!

[Cowboy Joe2k]

116. A Kick because I refuse to let you Bury the Constitution.

Prove it. If not this Year Prove it in 06. if you wait till 08 and they do it again, they will just say "Why are you Screaming Now? why are you screaming after the election? you had 4 years to fix it!

This should be our number on priority. It involves Taking our democracy back. and brining it back to life. If they bury this, then Democracy is all ready dead.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

119. A kick for the love of all Human Kind!

The the pupy's down well's can wait. we want our right to vote back.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

120. A Kick for the Human Race. this is your World. You Have the

Right to Vote.

You have the Right to know that the election was carried out in a fair and decent manner.

You have the right as a Member of the Human Race to have your Vote Counted.

All Brother and Sisters No mater what if your a member of the Human Race Keep your right to Vote.

Kick this like your life depends on it. it very well might.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

121. Right to Vote.

Kick this take to the streets. http://blog.democrats.com/node/901

Do not let our voice be silenced Do not let Democracy Die.

This Must be Fixed by 06. Or We the people may lose our right to vote for ever.

This is the truth they are trying to Hide. They Force meaningless stories down your throat to gag you so your cry's will not be herd as they take your rights away Don't Let them Do it!

Fix the Voting Machines.

Election reform Now!!! If we do not win this issue and have fair, audited elections, then democracy as our founders envisioned it is dead. Don't let the lessons of the past be forgotten. We over came the Civil rights movement once, My friends and Neighbors it is time to Stand once again Shoulder to Shoulder And tell your Oppressors:

"We Demand Our Right as Humans To Vote for the people who run our country."

[Cowboy Joe2k]

122. A Kick For our Right to Vote.

http://blog.democrats.com/node/901

[Cowboy Joe2k]

123. Kick this as if your Life depends on it We all must band together.

As the Human Race.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

124. Kick this Because it is the one issue that can save our country

And give us the right to live in a world where every Human is Free.

[dzika]

126. Judge to rule Tuesday on part of challenge to Bush victory in Nevada

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/29/state1956EST0121.DTL

Judge to rule Tuesday on part of challenge to Bush victory in Nevada

SCOTT SONNER, Associated Press Writer
Monday, November 29, 2004

-snip-
A judge intends to decide Tuesday whether to allow a legal
challenge to move forward aimed at blocking Nevada's five
electoral votes from being cast next month for President
Bush.

Washoe County District Judge Peter Breen said Monday he's
considering setting an evidentiary hearing to determine
whether there are grounds to keep the votes from Bush -- who
carried Nevada by 21,500 votes -- due to allegations of voter
registration fraud and claims some voting machines
malfunctioned.

-snip-
"President Bush is claiming he has a mandate and included in
that is that the state of Nevada stood behind him. Even if
Nevada's five electoral votes will not change the election, it
does have an impact on whether Nevada is part of that
mandate," Dickerson said.

`If there are disenfranchised voters who were illegally
disenfranchised ... then those voters are not having their
will voiced," he said.

[tinfoil_beret]

131. What did I tell you?

I guess Kerry's lawyer received bleever's message. :headbang:

Of course, it's possible they had planned this all along. Who am I to think that I'm the only want who thought of this? :eyes:

[Cowboy Joe2k]

127. Stop Spewing Hatred. I don't want to see people insulting

People. Republicans are Human too. Don't Forget that some of the Republican's have lost their rights too. It matters not that they are brain washed to believe what Fox News Tell's them, all that matters is that they to have lost their right to vote. All of us Humans are in this together, and if you want your voice to be herd at all, never let this post die. This is the only way to win back your freedom. you must band together with your community. you Must wright letters to your Towns people and get them to take back their rights!!!!!

[Cowboy Joe2k]

128. Kick this for you freedom Humanity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=85937&mesg_id=85937

[Cowboy Joe2k]

129. Aree you going to love your naiblrs? I am one of you!

I am with you. I need to be here to keep you sane.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

130. Or I thought I was. I thought I was the Sane Sence of reason

That just might possible hould us together, I Live for Freedom but not when no one is free. Please Come together as People the People of the Planet earth. Please give us a little Sanity to go with this insane world.

Please stop destroying our environment.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

132. Aditional thought, How do we know any or all of them are

Lagitimantly at all??? How do we know all of them are not rigged?

We Need to vote for the People we empower! This is bigger then Any of this Voting crap this about stopping us from killing our selves a a Population Pretty soon All this war crap it's gonna be autimated Hell it all ready is. Now Stop Playing with the Guns for a moment, An give us back our right to vote.

Thats what this is about you fool, It's the fate of the Human race.

Kick that!

[tinfoil_beret]

133. We don't...

But let's attack one monster at a time. Bury one, and move on to the next one. We can't do it all at the same time.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

134. Don't you see this is a media gold mind to finnaly bring about

peace? or are you to buissy killing each other? Because if thats it, I'm taken My jean Pool out of here.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

135. we want to learn about science and the world around us. not

Just this stupid Cash Registers for the rest of our lives. And we don't want to stand by and watch you people, Comit our children to killing. of any people for any reason. that is the only way any war can ever be won! is if We all put down our wepons and grow the fuck up.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

137. Here is why I keep kicking this the only vote that counts in every

Comunity around the Planet is a vote yes or no on the issue of war.

Thats what this is about people. It's your right to vote for weather or not you would prefer the humans Parish.

Please For our sake. people take back democracy. Every one around the world demand the right to vote yes or no on WAR!!!!!!!!!!

This is what we are fighting for. the right not to kill ourselves. are you awake yet?

[Cowboy Joe2k]

139. This is the Key! this is what we need to do to stop from killing Ourselves

don't just sit on your butt, wright letters to every one you know demanding your 14th Amendment Right to vote yes or no on WAR.

All Community's around the world Must do this, and we must do it fairly and with Audits.

1, Fricken Topic. Thats what we the Democrats of this world want for the winter season. Thats the only Present that you people can give to each other that has any meaning at all when you can give a gift as big as this. the right to Vote Yes or No on WAR!!

INTELLIGENT PEOPLE BAND TOGETHER. THIS IS THE ONE KEY THAT CAN SET YOU FREE!

[Cowboy Joe2k]

140. On the Next ballot Write in Peace you Stupid humans don't you

Get it that that is the only way you will ever have a voice!

[Cowboy Joe2k]

141. This truth alone can set you Free.

Write in Peace! every one. Demand paper Ballots. Wright in Peace. That is the only thing it matter we hope for now. If neither one of them have values Vote for peace on paper ballots and make damn sure that they are counted because if you do this You will have prove that their wrong. I just beat your game Sucker.

Give us back our Human Rights Now. Please! Can we Change the Channel?

enough with the terror warning. Tell every one you know to wright letters to Santa for world peace, because this is possible now!Include this whole thread. I want every one to know just what it is you could have given them. I want them to mail this thread to their children, and their children's and your grand children and your grand children that the only way you will ever have peace is if you constantly write in Peace as a Candidate.

Game over you lose you damn Machine.

Print that. Copy that this is your Freedom people.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

142. Kick this one to.

Never forget about it. Never again let them take away your constitution. The Terror threats are useless when you know who your oppressors are. Demand your right as a Citizen of this planet to vote no on war. and Yes on Peace. if there is any sanity that will save you it is this only fact. this fact that will save you it is this peace of information. Never again let this machine trick you. or you will lose it all morons.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

143. Kick this with all your might!

Never let the truth again be scilencet. Make your voice herd now.

[Cowboy Joe2k]

144. Kick this the protest ae here. America is just waking up, right now.

You will never scilence this truth.