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Dec 6 the is the deadline to Flip Ohio's Electors to Kerry

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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:16 PM
Original message
Dec 6 the is the deadline to Flip Ohio's Electors to Kerry
http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/electoral_coll...

Title 3 Chapter 1 Section 5

Determination of controversy as to appointment of electors

§ 5. If any State shall have provided, by laws enacted prior to the day fixed for the appointment of the electors, for its final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, by judicial or other methods or procedures, and such determination shall have been made at least six days before the time fixed for the meeting of the electors, such determination made pursuant to such law so existing on said day, and made at least six days prior to said time of meeting of the electors, shall be conclusive, and shall govern in the counting of the electoral votes as provided in the Constitution, and as hereinafter regulated, so far as the ascertainment of the electors appointed by such State is concerned.



Then there is section 15 which lays out the process of challange in the congress. A REPUBLICAN CONGRESS at least part of which was fraudlently elected as well.

The only thing that could be done at that point would be to go to the Supream Court and (and hope against Hope that O Conner is more worried about the Republic than whatever she was thinking about last time) and argue that the law as presently written does not give time for a recount in case of fraud and have the time table moved back.





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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Jan 6 is the deadline to prove fraud so that House and Senate accept Kerry
as Pres.

:-)
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. it would have to be conclusive proof
and even then I wouldn't count any chickens till the day itself.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. true - and that may not be hard to get!! :-)
Then again any "proof" can be called "incidents" by our GOP/Media and thus have no change.

We will see if this is a "democracy" - or even a country on the road to democracy worth worrying about.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. What would constitute "conclusive proof"?
I keep asking people this and I don't think any of them ever bother trying to define/describe it.
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. as far as I am concerned something you could use in court to convict
or at minimum sue someone. Something so obvious that anyone who wasn't utterly blinkered by partisanship would immediately agree demonstrated a stolen or at a fraudulent election. I don't think any less will cut it( in terms of getting Kerry elected) if this goes to a congressional challenge.
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. Conclusive proof would consist of:
1) Criminal tampering with voting machines
2) The altered votes would have to be enough to flip Ohio
3) Proof of link between GOP and the technicians

If ALL THREE of above can be documented, then and then only
the elctors can be flipped. Everything else is pissing in the
wind.
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. I don't think you'd need to tie the Republicans to the tampering if you
can prove there was a criminal conspiracy to carry it out, the beneficiary would be obvious and explicit.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I think a showing of Fraud invalidates any agreement or action
arrived upon based on that Fraud.

Are there specific Federal Laws governing what would happen in the case of proven Fraud stealing a Presidential Election??

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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Fraud has surfaced in every presidential election, and I can't recall
a single one overturned, atleast since Eisenhower.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. It would have to be of such a scope as to have changed the outcome
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. Only if done in time. For example a graduate student proved in
his thesis that the Chicago Daly machine had enough dead voters to cause Kennedy to win, but it was after Kennedy was long gone, and therefore Kennedy as having won for president stays in history books.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
2.  The Mess that is Section 15
Edited on Thu Nov-25-04 07:32 PM by truehawk
Counting electoral votes in congress

§ 15. Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o'clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer.

Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States, and, together with a list of the votes, be entered on the Journals of the two Houses.

Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections, if any.

Every objection shall be made in writing, and shall state clearly and concisely, and without argument, the ground thereof, and shall be signed by at least one Senator and one Member of the House of Representatives before the same shall be received.


When all objections so made to any vote or paper from a State shall have been received and read,

the Senate shall thereupon withdraw, and such objections shall be submitted to the Senate for its decision;

and the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall, in like manner, submit such objections to the House of Representatives for its decision;

and no electoral vote or votes from any State which shall have been regularly given by electors whose appointment has been lawfully certified to according to section 6 of this title from which but one return has been received shall be rejected,

Section 6 Says the Exec of each State has to notify the electors that they have been elected and give them a certificate.

but the two Houses concurrently may reject the vote or votes when they agree that such vote or votes have not been so regularly given by electors whose appointment has been so certified.

If more than one return or paper purporting to be a return from a State shall have been received by the President of the Senate, those votes, and those only, shall be counted which shall have been regularly given by the electors who are shown by the determination mentioned in section 5 of this title to have been appointed,

this means buying Section 5's timeline, which sucks because it does not allow enough time for a recount .

if the determination in said section provided for shall have been made, or by such successors or substitutes, in case of a vacancy in the board of electors so ascertained, as have been appointed to fill such vacancy in the mode provided by the laws of the State;

but in case there shall arise the question which of two or more of such State authorities determining what electors have been appointed, as mentioned in section 5 of this title, is the lawful tribunal of such State, the votes regularly given of those electors, and those only, of such State shall be counted whose title as electors the two Houses, acting separately, shall concurrently decide is supported by the decision of such State so authorized by its law;

and in such case of more than one return or paper purporting to be a return from a State, if there shall have been no such determination of the question in the State aforesaid,



then those votes, and those only, shall be counted which the two Houses shall concurrently decide were cast by lawful electors appointed in accordance with the laws of the State, unless the two Houses, acting separately, shall concurrently decide such votes not to be the lawful votes of the legally appointed electors of such State.

But if the two Houses shall disagree in respect of the counting of such votes, then, and in that case, the votes of the electors whose appointment shall have been certified by the executive of the State, under the seal thereof, shall be counted.

When the two Houses have voted, they shall immediately again meet, and the presiding officer shall then announce the decision of the questions submitted. No votes or papers from any other State shall be acted upon until the objections previously made to the votes or papers from any State shall have been finally disposed of.

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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Section 6
6. It shall be the duty of the executive of each State, as soon as practicable after the conclusion of the appointment of the electors in such State by the final ascertainment, under and in pursuance of the laws of such State providing for such ascertainment, to communicate by registered mail under the seal of the State to the Archivist of the United States a certificate of such ascertainment of the electors appointed, setting forth the names of such electors and the canvass or other ascertainment under the laws of such State of the number of votes given or cast for each person for whose appointment any and all votes have been given or cast; and it shall also thereupon be the duty of the executive of each State to deliver to the electors of such State, on or before the day on which they are required by section 7 of this title to meet, six duplicate-originals of the same certificate under the seal of the State; and if there shall have been any final determination in a State in the manner provided for by law of a controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, it shall be the duty of the executive of such State, as soon as practicable after such determination, to communicate under the seal of the State to the Archivist of the United States a certificate of such determination in form and manner as the same shall have been made; and the certificate or certificates so received by the Archivist of the United States shall be preserved by him for one year and shall be a part of the public records of his office and shall be open to public inspection; and the Archivist of the United States at the first meeting of Congress thereafter shall transmit to the two Houses of Congress copies in full of each and every such certificate so received at the National Archives and Records Administration.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
28. Not really such a mess
"...have been regularly given by electors..."

As Justice Breyer noted in his dissent to this Court's ruling in Bush v. Gore, the Electoral Count Act makes it the duty of Congress to determine what constitutes "regularly given" electoral votes and count only those that are "regularly given". In quoting the legislative history, he cites that:

"They can only count legal votes, and in doing so must determine, from the best evidence to be had, what are legal votes…"

And further that:

"The power to judge of the legality of the votes is a necessary consequent of the power to count. The existence of this power is of absolute necessity to the preservation of the Government." Bush v. Gore, J.Breyer dissent (11)

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trayfoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. Truehawk
If this is accurate, then we are already screwed. I was thinking that we would actually have until the day the electoral college meets in the states - Dec. 12 or 13. Do you know any more about the Ohio or Florida investigations?

(BTW, I am Grottoes from DNC board - got tired of hearing social talk there - I am an "action person")
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KMG Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. fraud
This isn't going anywhere. No one is going to "over turn" this election because some people couldn't vote. Maybe they weren't registered? In Afghanistan they were shot at and still made it to the voting booth.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. No Voter Left Behind
"No Voter Left Behind" -- imagine a whole new set of laws based on that idea, KMG. Right, if they can do it in Afghanistan, we might be able to do it here too, one of these days.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Grottoes Go read the law and tell me what you think
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Welcome to DU :-)
:toast:

:-)
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freedom for all Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Its like Florida in 2000
The repubs said in 2000 that if the recount of Florida changed the election they would accept the 1st set of electors with bush winning and not the 2nd one with Gore winning.. I think then it came down to the Gov. of the state making the decision on which electors to take..
Most media & law experts on TV think that if a recount was done and if Kerry did win Ohio that the repubs would not contest it and do the right thing.. If that were the case as Jonathan Tulley said then we would have till Jan 6th to get recount done and reported. But i think the repubs would contest it and if so they have control of all branches of government so they would win.. Thats would be a new high for them..Stealing the same election twice..Can you say Armageddon..
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yes the Exec of the State, or Governer has to certify the Electors
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. The Republicans said a lot of things in 2000 that were not true
According to David Boies, who recently came out with a new book, the governing law on this subject is the Constitution. On the same day the Congress sets aside as election day, not only do the people vote, but the states must select their electors that day. That latter process is done by the state law as specified in each state constitution. A legislature can change the manner in which it selects its electors, but it must do that before election day (not after). All state constitutions specify that electors shall be chosen based upon the result of the popular vote (except Maine's).

When Jim Baker looked into the camera and made those remarks about the Legislature choosing the electors, he, as an attorney, knew this was unconstitutional. He didn't care. He also knew most of us would not know it was illegal.

The absolute last drop-dead date for stopping Bush* from assuming office is Inauguration Day. That's what Turley said on Olberman's show. Once he's inaugurated, even if theft of the election is proven, he cannot be removed except for "high crimes and misdemeanors." The one exception to that is that if one had proof Bush* knew the election was rigged. I think that would be nearly impossible proof to get.
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. inauguration day? how would that work - say Congress accept the electoral
college on the 6th as showing Bush won, the following week you get video of Karl Rove personally changing the totals all over the country from a white house computer with Bush watching and encouraging, what would happen? could Congress revoke the vote or something or would it have to be a legal challenge?
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Maybe I am reading this wrong
Edited on Thu Nov-25-04 11:44 PM by truehawk
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/docs/ohio/Rios/order.pdf

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO
WESTERN DIVISION
Case No. 3:04CV7724

Snip

Id. Plaintiffs have not shown, moreover, that
an individual citizen has a federal constitutional right to a recount. Therefore, the only parties in this suit who
can allege injury are David Cobb and Michael Badnarik, the Green and Libertarian Party candidates,
respectively, for President.
While these candidates have a right under Ohio law to a recount, they have not shown that they
will be harmed irreparably if the recount is not completed by the time Ohio’s electors to the Electoral
College must be certified. Simply stated, neither candidate has a credible claim that they did or could win
the right to have Ohio’s presidential electors cast their Electoral College votes for him.4 While these
candidates have associational interests in having votes cast for them counted, the possibility that such
counting may not be completed by the time Ohio appoints its electors burdens only their chances of victory,
not of association. Neither candidate plaintiff can credibly maintain that he possesses even a remote chance
of victory through a recount.
Absent such showing, neither candidate could be harmed irreparably if the recount, if such were
to occur, went beyond December 7, 2004, the date for appointment of Ohio’s electors.

This is true even
though under the safe harbor provision of 3 U.S.C. § 5 no further challenge to the outcome of the
presidential election can thereafter be made.


Without a showing of irreparable injury, the plaintiffs can not prevail.

Snip

/s/ James G. Carr
James G. Carr
United States District Judge
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. ouch I hadn't read the ruling before, that's really not good. First time
I've said this but based on that Kerry really does have to get involved in the recount business straight away. Or at absolute minimum the KE Ohio campaign need to file suit to expedite matters
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. Yap, time for Kerry to spend that $52 Million he is hoarding for 2008
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
47. I guess we have a legal difference of opinion
"This is true even
though under the safe harbor provision of 3 U.S.C. § 5 no further challenge to the outcome of the
presidential election can thereafter be made."

He and Turley disagree.

There's another issue. I read once that over our history there has been occasional when a state has been barred from participating in the Electoral College vote. I do not know the circumstances. If it were proven fraud was committed in Ohio before the Electoral College vote, Ohio could be barred from casting its electoral college votes. If fraud were proven in Ohio OR FLORIDA after the Electoral College vote, a Supreme Court judge should not be willing to swear Bush* into office.

I know for a fact Turley said the last drop-dead date for stopping Bush* was inauguration day.

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YellowDoginthehouse Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
34. Hey, grottoes!!!
Me too!:kick:
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
51. I started out there, too
I got tired of being in the midst of the social scene for Foilhat Friends. Nice people mostly, but sheesh...how about some diversity?

Glad you're here, :hi: ...but I have to warn you, it's VERY addictive!
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think this demonstrates how ineffectively federal law seems to mesh with
state law. I mean it is absolutely absurd that you have mechanisms in several states to challenge the election, where in order to reach a conclusion the deadline set by federal law has to be bypassed. - Fair enough there is a mechanism to challenge but that occurs in the partisan setting of Congress where the result is almost assured anyway. So the will of the states and of the voters can easily count for nothing. It's ridiculous.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. This needs to go to the Supream Court NOW
And hope O Conner is ready to defend Democracy this time.
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jdog Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. did I miss a thread on this???? Bev...
Edited on Thu Nov-25-04 08:06 PM by jdog
This is dated 11/24 - - did I miss discussion about this???

http://ww.BreakForNews.com

Sorry try this link:

http://www.kathymcmahon.utvinternet.com/mrn/articles/WhatVoteFraud.htm
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It's Right Here
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jdog Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. OMG I've been cooking
all this time. I just now saw this. Thanks. I'm changin' threads!
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. Don't fall for sham arguments about deadlines
States submit slates of electors after December 12th all the time. Contrary to claims in Bush v. Gore, the so-called deadlines are not true deadlines. Under the electoral count act, electors can in fact be challenged as not "regularly" appointed whether they are appointed before or after December 12th... that is, the so-called "safe-harbor" is not much of one.

We have processes. They take as long as they take. Violating our most fundamental principle (i.e., that our elected representatives must lawfully and fairly obtain "the consent of the governed") to meet a deadline is unthinkable... or at least was until Bush v. Gore.

From http://a4a.mahost.org/court3.html

the court argued, in effect, that time had expired. But the "safe harbor" argument it put forward -- that the Dec. 18 deadline, after which state electors could be challenged, was absolute -- has been shown to be fallacious. (As David Strauss notes in "Bush v. Gore: What Were They Thinking?": "This interpretation of 3 USC section 5 is wrong. No one, now, believes otherwise.")

See these talking points
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. I would really love to expect for this little detail
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/docs/ohio/Rios/order.pdf

Now don't get me wrong, these deadlines and limitations rationally should be overturned as threatening the very foundation idea of our democracy, they value speed over the right to count every vote to fairly elect our leaders.

However someone with STANDING (Kerry or Edwards) could get the injuction for Ohio to get off their duff and declare the count, by Dec 1, which was when Blackwell originally said he would certify the results anyway.

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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
27. Somebody asked why Blackwell insisted on the date Dec 6th...
...to certify the election, instead of Dec 1st, which (if I remember correctly) is the deadline for certifying the state. Now we know why.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Welll, I don't know about that
>... Now we know why.

Well, I don't know about that.

The Bush v. Gore propaganda about dates and deadlines has certainly infected the dialog.

Don't allow yourself to get too hung up on the dates. Everyone agrees that the statewide recount will take through Christmas, at least. If Ohio appoints a slate of Bush electors prior to the completion of the recount (I doubt they will, but I suppose they could try it), and the recount and associated legal actions and remedies yield a Kerry victory, then the state would just appoint a Kerry slate too. It's then up to Congress to determine which slate to count.

And heaven help them if they choose to count electoral votes given by electors that were appointed pursuant to election results that have been proven to be wrong.

Stay grounded in reality. We, "the governed" MUST NOT allow legalisms or they cynical misuse of the law to trump reality.

When they shift to the "letter of the law" frame, we must shift to the "reality-based, moral" frame.

Here are some of the pieces of that frame; the right frame.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. The state of Ohio could not appoint a slate of electors for Bush*
if the recount showed the popular vote went to Kerry. The state constitution says the slate of electors will be chosen by the result of the popular vote. The State of Ohio cannot change its constitution AFTER election day. It would have had to have done so BEFORE election day. It would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL. See my other post regarding David Boies and his remarks on this subject.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. I could not find the Dec 1 deadline in any state law,
But I remember him saying that the Vote would be certified Dec 1.

Do you have a link???
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. here's where I saw "Dec 1" and that was the last mention of it
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 01:05 PM by Chili
...there were other articles with "Dec 1" as the deadline, too, I have to find them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=64425#64451

Found an official document, though:

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/pubaffairs/elections/elecalen.pdf

...where it says:

"An application for a recount must be filed no later than five days after the official results are declared. (3515.02)

A petition contesting an election must be filed in the appropriate court within 15 days after the official results are declared,
or within 10 days after the official results of a recount are declared. (3515.09)"

Somewhere, Dec 1 was the target date, but there are so many articles now I haven't found it yet...
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
30. This is why we MUST change the FRAME
This discussion is a good example of why we MUST continue to change the FRAME of the issue. The neofashists and the DC/Media Analstocracy will try to get us sidetracked with nonsense like this.

It is all a form of distraction from the real issue. And propaganda to convince people that there's nothing that can be done.

The current frame is:

"Move along now. We've got our "ofishyl" vote count - you have to prove a crime was committed or you'll be ignored."

The NEW FRAME is:

"Your vote-counts are demonstrably false (not just uncertain), demostrably discriminatory (unlawful), both racially and in favor of bush voters.

"You must provide a transparent audit of your election procedures, failures, and data of all kinds OR WE INTEND TO DEMAND that your state's electors be DISALLOWED on Jan. 6th in Congress."

This new frame must be propogated amongst ourselves first. The short version is that "they have the burden of proof." And this goes for ALL states, not just swingers. As I said, they boosted totals everywhere to manufacture the pop-vote propaganda tool.

We must convince, first ourselves, then our supposed "leaders" and allies, of the Constitutional Right we have (equal protection - Bush v. Gore, heh) to demand this proof. And put our leaders on notice that they HAVE THE DUTY to support us in this. It is not optional.

Please watch My Diary at dailyKos as I will soon be posting a "Declaration of Intention" document that we will be attempting to get signed by ALL Members of Congress.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Yes!! Posted above on setting the Frame before I saw this.
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 12:56 AM by pat_k
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
35. Oh no, that's not good.
We have to save democracy. We can't let those crooks get away with this.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Anyone know Ohio election Law as it pretains to when Electors
Have to be appointed?

Section 2 says

Failure to make choice on prescribed day

§ 2. Whenever any State has held an election for the purpose of choosing electors, and has failed to make a choice on the day prescribed by law, the electors may be appointed on a subsequent day in such a manner as the legislature of such State may direct.


In other words we have to keep Blackwell from having the Shrub electors appointed.

Someone has to file a restraining order to prevent the choice of electors until after the recount.


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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. that actually sounds like a really good idea, I still think you would need
the Ohio Democrats or the KE campaign to file it, I can't see a judge granting it to Cobb/Badnarik, but still it might be the best way to ensure that will of the people counts for something,
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. We need a Plaintiff with standing and Lawyer who Practices in Ohio
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
38. strategy for time urgent response to votergate in Ohio
There is a two pronged approach to the problem of Votergate in Ohio. I wrote the following as an article on strategy for opednews. Here it is:

VOTERGATE 2004: STRATEGY

Since the Nov 2 Election, evidence has mounted daily -- starting with the massive unexplained divergence between the exit polls and the tabulated results on election day -- that the presidential election was indeed stolen by the Republicans. In particular, the systematic denial of adequate voting machines to overwhelmingly Democratic precincts in Ohio is a tangible, provable single factor that, standing alone, has been established as virtually certainly decisive in turning the state, and therefore the electoral college to Bush. This issue, and a myriad of extensively documented proofs or strong suggestions of massive vote fraud in the election have emerged, especially since Nov. 12, yet there has been virtual silence -- a "media lockdown" in the mainstream media in the US, a phenomenon as telling in itself as the determination of the outcome of the election by voter fraud. New information comes out every day, protests, recount demands, and a spate of lawsuits have been filed. Yet an overall strategy is lacking that focuses on the most vulnerable legal and political points in the system.

Such a strategy should continue all the productive grass roots activities now being pursued, but requires two major prongs: a lawsuit on the systematic denial of voting machines in Ohio accompanied by substantial mobilization, and a focus on the media lockdown issue itself as a major crucial political issue creating by organized default a "consensus" that assumes the election to have been fairly won and any fraud issues to be marginal in impact or "tin foil hat" theories.

As for the lawsuit, it is not merely yet another on top of the many that have already been filed. For a recent list, see: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/112204A.shtml for Marjorie Cohn's summary at Truthout. A wealth of testimony suggests that huge lines, routinely exceeding two hours and often running from three to seven hours and more, in overwhelmingly Democratic precincts while Republican precincts, was due to a systematic deprivation of adequate voting machines to those precincts; meanwhile, in Republican precincts where turnout exceeded 70%, observers found them empty or nearly empty, as they had plenty of machines to vote on. Such a deliberate pattern constitutes an obvious form of voter fraud. It is observable and verifiable. And testimony -- such as one minister from Youngstown who estimated it cost the Democrats 7000 votes in that city alone -- supports the inevitable conclusion that the number of voters driven away by this artificially created condition was decisive in the outcome in Ohio. Some overwhelmingly black precincts reported fewer voting machines, even only half as many as usual in some cases, being provided even though record turnout was expected.

In Florida 2000, there was no massive class action lawsuit filed on behalf of the many many thousands of disenfranchised black voters in that state. Such a suit would specifically point to the deliberate fraud that was not apparent in the butterfly ballot question, and would not be subject to so easy a dismissal. Further, the Voting Rights Act issues resonate deeply, and an agenda in the court system to dispose of these cases and allow a Bush "victory" would generate serious friction for the system. In all likelihood, it was for that very reason of the strength of such a lawsuit that it was sufficiently disfavored as not to have been filed at all. People gave their lives fighting for the Voting Rights Act, as they did on Omaha Beach and many other venues fighting to defend democracy. Is no litigation organization willing to buck the agenda by embarassing the system by playing the winning card in this situation -- even if it is overwhelmingly likely that the court system will follow its agenda and happily pay the price in embarassment for the power thereby grabbed? Should not this issue be raised to public awareness and accountability, to show, citing but one albeit clearly decisive example, of how the Bush mandate is made out of pure fraud?

The evidence in Ohio has been gathered in a huge and growing mountain of testimony and evidence, with selected portions and analyses being provided by freepress.org, and others. See: http://www.freepress.org/index2.php. It may be forbidden, when playing with Nero, to lay down the winning card, but even if it is forbidden, such a lawsuit, including but not limited to Voting Rights Act claims on the basis of race (as student districts were deprived of adequate voting machines, including one reported case where over 10,000 registered voters were provided only TWO voting machines, despite a standard that should have required dozens of such machines at that site, to prevent waits in excess of nine hours. The old days of Jim Crow are back in full force -- instead of (overt) poll taxes and literacy tests, we have means equally as effective to prevent the franchise from being exercised. One can only imagine how, given adequate mobilization, the political costs to those committing the fraud could be multiplied, albeit not necessarily to the point of being worth relinquishing power, at least to such a degree as to strengthen the resistance to such a 'creeping coup d'etat' considerably.

Nor is a remedy hard to imagine. Here's one layperson's proposal. Identify those precincts that had a severe inadequacy of voting machines, say, less than one for every 200 registered voters when the guidelines are for one per hundred voters. The number of machines at the end of the day would not be a sufficient guide of personal testimony proves that the average number of voting machines during voting hours was insufficient (one scam involved not listing how many machines there were in precincts at the beginning of the day in the records.) Once these precincts are identified -- amazing that (virtually) ALL would be Democratic, don't you think? -- three criteria are established: 1) a voter must have been validly registered in that precinct on Nov. 2; 2) the records must not reflect that they have already voted; and possibly 3) they are willing to attest that they were deterred from voting by the long lines.
Note that, if a day is set aside with plenty of machines in those precincts for voters meeting those criteria to vote, the Democrats would almost certainly get fewer votes than had the election been handled honestly, as some people meeting those criteria wouldn't bother to vote a second time, probably many more than the number willing to lie under oath about their intentions. Therefore, this remedy is only a stopgap, sufficient in this case to turn the state to Kerry, but in practice overly generous to the Republicans, who really should be subject to prosecution as well as other timely prophylactic measures in the future. Possibly, the courts -- who simply won't overturn a presidential election in the Democrats' favor regardless of the degree of fraud -- would only prescribe 'future remedies' as a sop. But this would need to be challenged, and the political impact should be significant.

The other dimension of the issue is the media. While exit polls that were only THREE percent off, less than in a number of swing states, were sufficient to overturn elections in the Ukraine, in the US the media remains a pack of hounds that didn't bark. While as of Nov. 12, the NY Times ran a cover story unjournalistically claiming that fraud claims about the election raised on the web were being disproven on the web -- when in fact the Votergate theories were only being challenged, not disproven -- further evidence exploded these challenges. For example, a major discrepancy suggesting hacking was found in Florida on the Optical Scan machines (the ideal voting technology, for reasons that can be explained another time) -- with overwhelmingly Democratic Counties registering overwhelming majorities for Bush. It was countered, and immediately accepted as gospel by certain ambitious justifiers of the lying, including with liberal credentials up the wazoo (you know the type), that these were merely Dixiecrat counties in the panhandle that had been trending Republican. On closer inspection, it turns out many of the counties were nowhere near the panhandle and had never voted for the Republican candidate for president in the past. When Bev Harris of blackboxvoting.org tried to investigate in Volusia County (Daytona Beach as Dixiecrat country?) she encountered a list of adventures worthy of major coverage, especially since the New York Times had left readers with a false impression on this issue: she was given bogus poll tapes, found copies of the real ones in the garbage that differed from the bogus ones, was threatened with arrest, etc. See: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-22.htmhttp://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-22.htm
There are many many other stories that have surfaced since the unjustified initial pooh poohing of the election fraud issue as "tinfoil hat theory" in the mainstream press, including a major study at UC Berkeley suggesting a vote shift of 130,000 to 260,000 on the e-vote machines. But once the information came out that showed the supposed tinfoil hat theories to be valid in many cases and proven in some, the media went on total lockdown. There wasn't a single article reporting any of these findings in the New York Times, including its op-ed page -- even when bravely calling for the usual suspects of election reform or running a major article in the Magazine on the presidential election in Ohio -- these issues were meticulously avoided. Nor have the major networks or other major national dailies -- a column in the Boston Globe Nov 17 on the eerie media silence being a rare and limited exception -- deviated from the media lockdown. Many major bloggers on the web, Democrats who were beside themselves during the Sinclair flap, are silent or near-silent -- such as Eschaton, spinsanity, and Talking Points memo. Little is to be found at Media Matters of MichaelMoore.com either. This is amazing.

The first step on the media side is for a group -- a small group with limited resources but at least some computer skills and time could do this -- to set up a website specifically devoted to this media dimension of the issue. "Votergate 2004: Media Lockdown" could publicize itself, including on those sites already devoted to votergate, such as: http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book109h.htm and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/People-v-Ohio-n-Florida/. There's also lots of news at Commondreams, Truthout, Freepress.org and other good spots.

This website and other avenues could organize people to pester the mass media with emails and calls, including supposedly progressive bloggers who should be doing more (or something). They need to also organize mass protests directed at the mass media, conveniently in NYC, DC, and LA, heavily blue areas far from any contested election sites where many are eager to be active. A major protest at the major networks and The New York Times, militant but not violent, would be a good place to start.

These two fronts, the litigational and the press, leavened with active and militant organizing must be pursued NOW. For those interested in this, go to the Yahoo groups! website, join that group, and post your idea. You can also find my and other activists emails there. IF YOU CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY -- NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT, as time is of the essence. We must have this raised to a head by Dec 12, which means that each day is urgently important.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Here, Here!
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 10:37 AM by pat_k
Here, Here!

The two prongs you discuss --fighting in our courts of law and fighting in the court of public opinion (targeting the media and any other organizations or outlets with a "megaphone") -- are absolute requirements.

I suggest there is a third prong: Setting the stage for January 6th. We must be ready in the event that our efforts to get a remedy in our courts fails. We must set the stage to demand a political remedy. A key part of setting the stage is shifting the frame. The principles that we are figthing for demand that we expand the fight beyond Ohio. Actions are required in every state. People need to "look in their own back yard" and take the steps necessary to answer some key questions, starting with "Did the election in my state give citizens across the state an equal opportunity to exercise their right to vote?"
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
46. kick
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
50. Dec 1 vs. Dec 6
It sounds like Dec 1 is the deadline for counties to submit their vote totals, and Dec 6 is the date for dertifying the statewide totals.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041109/NEWS09/411090348/-1/ARCHIVES30

Otherwise, Blackwell is playing with the dates.
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