Does ANYONE have any credible information.......

[trayfoot]

about what is happening in Ohio and Florida. The posts have been confusing! I just want someone to tell me whether we have a shot at proving fraud (and I mean a damn good shot - not a conspiracy theory)! I'm more interested in proving the system fraudulent as I am in overturning the perceived results. Unless we destroy the curent system of voting procedures in this country and resurrect a new and improved (democratic) system, I don't see any future for the democratic party - period! Just the FACTS - PLEASE!

[YellowDoginthehouse]

1. Hey, tray!

Welcome to DU!:hi:

[trayfoot]

2. Thanks YellowDog! N/T

[truehawk]

5. Pst?? What does n/t mean???

[trayfoot]

6. Don't know........

Somebody on here said it meant.......No Text???????????

[truehawk]

7. ????? :p

[stlsaxman]

16. You are correct! n/t = no text... and welcome to DU, btw (by the way)

;)

[Solitaire]

23. truehawk and trayfoot, here you go:

http://dug.seattleactivist.org/

:)

[truehawk]

3. There is a link to a Bev Harris Column here somewhere

She had found poll tapes that did not match what was reported at the County BOE, had shown them to CNN And got a big Yawn.

You could see her ears smoke.

I'll try to find the link.

[truehawk]

4. Can You TELL how she feels????

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=78933&mesg_id=79895

[trayfoot]

8. true....but

True, truehawk, I read that from Bev. But, then I read the articles saying that the suit was one day late, et al. I can see that Bev is pissed to the max with the voting situation AND with the dems who are not supporting her. But, I guess what I want to know, is all for nought? I guess I am asking for the impossible - with things as they stand right now, who would know the outcome??????? I just know that the dem party here that registered so many is going down the tubes because these people feel they were cheated and that the dems are doing nothing about it. See here what we are getting in VA:

November 22, 2004


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lessons From Mark Warner
A Virginia Democrat's Retrospective On The 2004 Campaign And What We Learned

By Mike Signer

I decided to write this piece for the Washington Post after I heard many of my close Virginia Democrat friends refuse to accept that John Kerry had simply been beaten on his message. Instead, these folks -- all fine, hard-working, and passionate Democrats -- were blaming malfunctioning voting machines, or conspiracies in Ohio or Florida, or Fox TV, for our loss.

But the problem had a different, more national, genesis. Here in Virginia, we all know that Susan Swecker, Larry Framme, Lindsey Reynolds, John Winston, Eric Payne, Joe Easton, Jay Myerson, and many others assembled a fantastic campaign. Virginia Victory '04's momentum and its many material accomplishments (thousands of new voter ID's, robust fundraising lists, committed new volunteers) will carry us through Tim Kaine's victory next year.

The problem, I believe, rested instead with the national campaign's failure seriously to fight for the trust of red America.

The point of the article was to try to highlight for the Post's national audience the fact that while many Democrats seem right now to be flailing about for a new direction, Virginia Democrats, under the leadership of Governor Warner, have already figured out how to reach out to red America, and win. In this difficult time -- because no matter how you slice it, November 2 was painful for all of us -- Virginia Democrats should take intense pride in what we've accomplished in the Old Dominion. We're at the forefront of a coming evolution for the party. I truly believe that while November 2 was certainly an end in some ways, it can be a beginning, too.

As my old boss Creigh Deeds has been saying for years, there are more of us than there are of them. We've got better values, better policies, and better leaders. We just need to get red Americans to listen. If we do that, we'll win, and we'll be the majority party again.

Click here to read Mike Signer's op-ed in Sunday's Washington Post.


*******Now, IMO, this is bullshit - and I am NOT the only person to say this.

[trayfoot]

9. IF.....

the Democratic Party thinks that people will forget this bogus election, they are going to be VERY surprised in 06 and 08. Virginia is one of those "red states" that could be brought around - with the proper stimulation. After this debacle, my honest opinion of what VA will do...........the dems will stay at home on election day because they have NO FAITH that honest elections will take place. Wish I could impress this upon the party!

[trayfoot]

10. Just TESTING a Board pattern - disregard as no nt

[marions ghost]

11. Gimme a Break

political posturing :puke:

whenever anybody says my values are better than yo values...yuk
I doubt these people got anybody to cross over to the Kerry side that way.
"Dems lost the battle for the hearts and minds of Reds"...(??)"except in Virginia?" Does anybody buy that? Can anybody from VA speak to this
--seems to me--questionable assertion?

How about WHICH politicians on any side are going to show they CARE about the gross insult to the American voter in this "irregular" election. And also while we're at it--what about the nightmare of the 4 billion dollar hysterical frenzy leading up to it?--an assault on Blue and Red alike.
(We can discuss all your other pet theories after that, Mr. Signor).

Does anybody else on DU agree? Or am I quacking alone on this?

[truehawk]

12. You are right it is BULLSHIT

[pat_k]

13. Move the game and trun the tables

You assume the burden of proof is on us to prove fraud.

That is not a morally valid position.

We must shift the burden of proof and demand that the states prove their results to be reliable and fairly obtained. It's up to us to "move the game"... See We MUST change the FRAME

[righteous1]

14. I'll do my best to map the situation as it exists now

The ohio provisional count has completeed 64 of 88 counties, tally stands at Bush + 29385 Kerry + 23947. After doing some calculations it appears that JK will not pick up a lot of additional votes to cut into Bushs 133000 vote lead. Best guess 10-15k. This would give Bush a lead after PV and AV of about 120,000 The recount recieved a couple of setbacks earlier in the week. A district judge made a ruling that state law does not allow a recount to commence prior to the vote being certified (Dec 3rd) The drop dead date for vote tallys to be submitted (Bush vs Gore) SCOTUS states that no recount after Dec 7 shall have any LEGAL EFFECT. So any recount would have to occur in that 4 day period. The Ohio law states that the BOE has 5 days to "prepare" for the recount, which would be Dec 8th one day past the drop dead date. (troubling) Supposedly the $100,000 required for the recount is only a deposit and that the actual cost ~1.5 million also has to be paid for by the people requesting the recount,.(there are conflicting oppinions on this) Also a judge issued a TRO effectively stopping any move toward recount preparation in Delaware county, precident set so other counties undoubtedly will be "covered". Counties are seeking a PRO and any action on that would be next week. That is all I know, i have been following this pretty close, but by no means am i completely up to spped on everything

[pat_k]

15. States appoint electors after December 12 all the time

>...tallys to be submitted (Bush vs Gore)
>SCOTUS states that no recount after Dec 7
>shall have any LEGAL EFFECT. So any
>recount would have to occur in that 4 day period.

States appoint electors after December 12 all the time. You are falling into a propaganda trap. We cannot allow the "deadline" lies to stand. We must not continue to promote them.

Every one agrees that a statewide recount in Ohio will take through Christmas. I said this somewhere else, but the point bears repeating. Even if Ohio DID appoint a Bush slate of electors before the recount had been completed, if the recount and associated legal actions prove Kerry to be the winner, Ohio would just need to appoint a Kerry slate too. Then it is up to Congress to determine which electoral votes are the "regularly" given votes.

If you did end up with the two slates, and Congress tries to count the Bush-slate after it has been shown that the Kerry-slate reflects the will of the voters, heaven help them. I have no doubt that if they did that, every American who believes in the principle of "the consent of the governed" (a vast majority of us) would rise up against them. The reaction would be akin to the reaction to the notion that the Florida legistature could artitrarily appoint a slate. They backed off going that notion when Luntz focus groups on the subject made it clear that such an action would trigger an overwhelming negative response.

They can try to push whatever legalisms they want to trump morality and truth, but We the People are the ultimate authority.

[righteous1]

17. Excuse me,was looking at the wrong dates

The Ohio tally must be completed (6) days before the electoral college meets, which is 12/13 this year.

[righteous1]

18. This is why

the Green party filed the suit to expedite the recount, and also why the ruling not to allow early recounting is significant

[crispini]

19. re: Ohio. Don't forget the 93,000 undervotes

These are (punchcard) ballots which did not record a pres vote. BS, you know there's a pres. vote on there. IIRC, many of these were in urban precincts likely to lean K. They will show up in a RECOUNT only.

[righteous1]

21. These are a combination

of undervotes, overvotes, double votes etc. etc. don't know the % in each category

[kk897]

24. another issue to consider

is that an initial recount will only recount THREE PERCENT of the votes. I'm looking for verification of that at the moment; it was in a PDF a voters' rights organization sent me, which says that this is according to Ohio Revised Code 3515, but I've been combing that chapter and haven't found this specific provision.

[righteous1]

25. Interesting....that is the way it is in New Hampshire n/t

[crispini]

20. WRT: fraud.

IMO ... no big fat smoking gun YET.

Lotsa smoke though. I think the Berkely study's the best we've got, also TIA's statistical analayses. Unfortunately that doesn't count as "proof" for a lot of people...

[pat_k]

22. We have more than enough to reject the official totals with the "No Confid

We have more than enough to reject the official totals with the "No Confidence" stamp.

Turn the tables.