e-mail reply from Mr. Wayne Madsen

[roguevalley]

I wrote to him and he wrote back. I won't post it here but will tell you his thoughts. (I am conflicted about posting a private e-mail to an open board)

He says 1) he gave the article to people in a 'position to raise hell', 2) he is getting pressured out of paid jobs, getting pressure from the Bushes and Saudis, 3) he doesn't know how long he can report from Washington but will stay on as long as health/wealth allows.

My heart is still pounding. God bless a free internet.

RV, who sent him a mail yesterday.

[NVMojo]

1. Thanks, RV, for not shooting the messenger like some here have.

whenever a reporter or journalist sticks their neck out like this, they risk alot, one being the fact that those being exposed are given the warning. And they then take action to cover up and the reporter looks like he/she gave a bogus report. Been there, done that.

Once again, thanks, and I appreciate your recent post.

[hlthe2b]

2. Can someone put this in context? I missed the article/posts in question..

[Carolab]

4. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=78323&mesg_id=78323

[hlthe2b]

8. thanks... looks like I've got some reading to do!

[roguevalley]

5. its in election results. Its an article about how some technicians

being screwed by the Bushies over pay, were supposed to go and change the election results. 29 million dollars was laundered through a Cook Island bank for this and someone is reneging on them. Mr. Madsen wrote about it and now is getting harassed. I think he needs to know he is heard, has support and hopefully, something can be done to see about this, whether its true or not. I personally am praying to every god that ever lived that it is.

Mr. Madsen is doing his job. Unlike every OTHER newsperson out there who isn't named Keith Olbermann.

[Cha]

70. I just remembered that I've e-mailed

Wayne Madsen before to let him know how much I enjoyed his previous articles and he e-mailed me back, too:)

[roguevalley]

3. you have to stick up for the truth and frankly, I believe him. I hope

he's safe and okay. I felt his weariness. God bless him and others who try and do what is right under the occupation.

[trayfoot]

10. Madsen email

I, too, sent Madsen an email. I have heard nothing from him as yet. Here is the email I sent:


Mr. Madsen,

I read your article at Online Journal for Nov. 25th. I would beg with you to release ANY sources you may have to the public immediately. The mainstream media is not going to touch the fraud story without HARD PROOF. Right now, it looks like the recount in Ohio will be impeded - or at the very least not given the sufficient amount of time for completion. Looks like the Volusia lawsuit will be thrown out because it was filed a day late. In other words, this country is being screwed!

Having taught government for 33 years, I am beside myself at the thought of what I see happening to this nation. We are no longer a democracy - we are a fascist society, people just haven't realized that as yet. This election is the third "stolen election" of which I am aware - and there could have been many others. If we do not address this NOW, we may as well "bend over". So, if you have the info that can turn this hideous tide, I would beg that you release it immediately. No less than the future of this nation depends on being able to prove that GWB lost this election.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

[geo]

14. just a thought...

but releasing source information is not a good idea. As nice as it would be for us, I understand its implications.

I am sick to my stomach too. Can hardly keep my mind off of it. I am with you there. The nausea set in hardcore on Nov. 2nd and hasn't left since.

What I feel would be helpful from Mr. Madsen is any tips for followup he may have, and any other nuggets he CAN give us. He can depend on us to do some homework, but giving us just a little more would be a very nice thing. :)

Well, let's hope we hear more.

Warmly,

George

[roguevalley]

6. you are welcome, NVMojo. By the way, Joe Conason wrote and

thanked me for sending him this story too. I love Joe Conason.

[merh]

24. Did you send Conason the link to the DU thread that contains

links to various stories through out the country that report lockdowns or similar suspicious activities?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2750379

[jamboi]

30. Also we should send that to Olbermann, cuz that was what KO said

made him skeptical of WM's story.

[merh]

31. I provided the link to the poster that has the friend that knows

olberman and posted KO's skeptical email.

[jamboi]

7. I also got a personal reply which is similar in nature.

I also didn't feel I should post it. I invited him to come here and speak for himself.

He talked some more about the money connections but didn't go into anything more about the techs or the actions they may have taken. He expressed concern about how difficult it was getting to do stories. I encouraged him to speak for himself here and that we would be very supportive if he could give us something a little more solid to go on. I told him frankly how we weren't sure with what he'd written so far whether it was for real or disinfo, that we wanted to believe it but couldn't be sure yet. We'll see.

[jamboi]

11. Also I told him he's put a LOT on the line for this.

basically everything. we'll see.

[geo]

9. could we write him back and ask...

if it is ok to post the e-mail?

If you write him back, please thank him from all of us. :)

Please also ask him any advice he has for using this information. Also, did he get links to the main thread on this story? I have heard that he has posted on DU before, and it might prove interesting if he is willing at all to make a few comments or give us any additional direction.

Just a thought. :)

Warmly,

George

[jamboi]

12. I asked him to post it directly. Although if he said its okay to post I

would.

[roguevalley]

13. I don't know. Personally, I hope he doesn't post here. There have

been trolls out and I don't want him to get a boxful of abuse among the genuine letters of support. This is tough enough without giving the trolls a boost to his private mail.

Anytime you battle the status quo, you risk a lot. I admire his guts.

[murielm99]

15. I have seen his articles on Counterpunch,

and in the Nation magazine.

Those of us in touch with journalists who speak for the left could ask them to continue hiring Mr. Madsen.

We should get this to Michael Moore, too.

And what about Kos?

[thephaseshift]

16. Get a grip and be careful guys....!

Guys, step back for a second and think about it. Would Bush and co. have concocted such a huge scheme, involving SO many people, risking that any single whistleblower could mess them up for life? This sort of massive-scale conspiracy is almost certainly not true.

If it is, then super - we don't need to get too hysterical about it until it comes out though.

Let me ask you this: WHAT OTHER LOCKDOWNS BESIDES WARREN COUNTY HAVE THERE BEEN? According to Olbermann, none. That already throws suspicion on the whole thing if you ask me. It sounds like Madsen took a couple of facts and made something up on a grand scale to get people like us all excited. Why Madsen would risk his reputation, I don't know - maybe it's a cost-benefit thing, or his reputation won't be lost in any case, who knows. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, not with such a hot potato. If it's true, it'll come out without our help.

Let's watch it silently without getting too involved, 'kay?

[GayGuyinCalifornia]

17. There didn't need to be lockdowns....

only "incidents" which required technicians to "repair" the machinery.

[Garbo 2004]

18. Madsen's article asserts there were media reports across the country

of lockdowns: "There have been media reports from around the country concerning the locking down of precincts while votes were being tallied." http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112504Madsen/112504madsen.html

The point of the previous poster being, if this assertion cannot be substantiated, which one should be able to do readily if there were such media reports across the county, that at least calls into question Madsen's fact checking and accuracy if not indeed credibility and reliability. If the small easily checked assertions appear shaky, that raises questions about the big ones.

The Warren County lockdown did get media attention because it was unprecedented and the media were shut out. Have there been any such reports from other places in the country? Madsen says there have been. Is anyone aware of them? Can anyone find any?

While Olbermann gave Warren County national attention, has anyone heard of local reports of precinct lockdowns? We've got people from all over the country here so folks here should be able to provide info if there have been any local media reports of precinct lockdowns.

Madsen may well be acting in good faith. But how "informed" and trustworthy are his sources? And how rigorous is he regarding the accuracy or reliability of what he is willing to put into print? Does he go with mere speculation, repeat rumors or does he require some evidence that can be substantiated (even if he may not cite it in the actual article due to sensitivity regarding his sources)? Relevant questions IMO.

[madrigal]

20. Here are some examples

This links to the thread in GD where Du'ers are looking for other examples (and finding them)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2750379&mesg_id=2750379

[Garbo 2004]

22. Thanks. But posters there are also posting about school lockdowns and

things that are not incidents of precinct vote counting lockdowns. So far as I can tell the Sante Fe report is one that seems most analagous to the Warren County type of lockdown that Madsen discusses in his article.

But that thread did link to a Madsen story that was completely speculative, alarmist and wrong: http://www.legitgov.org/essay_madsen_terrorism_and_california_071404.html . I'd previously read that and a few other of his writings that left me dubious about his standards for publication as does this current story.

[crispini]

26. I had a thought about that, which is that a school lockdown

would be pretty analagous (sp?) to a lockdown at a vote counting location in some cases.... in cases where votes are tallied in precincts before taking to an elections office.

[Garbo 2004]

32. Many of the school lockdowns appear to be in schools with no polling

places if I read the info correctly. So those wouldn't be relevant.

[brindis_desala]

23. listen to Garbo

This is just a giant dead end. No lockdown needed. Most poll workers aren't computer literate and its already established that in Cook Cty. Ill. and elsewhere evote technicians had SOLE access both during and after the election. The most disturbing issue that's come to light is what Bev Harris said about seeing modems in Volusia Cty boding the possibility that there might have been wireless manipulation. We need to go on crunching the numbers for anomalies, give Bev and the rest of the folks on the ground all our leads then line up the ducks and see if they stand in a row.

[geo]

50. wireless modems???

I saw you say modem and wireless near each other. Were these modems wireless modems and what data does Bev have on them??? That is a HUGE red flag. - G

[brindis_desala]

56. Yes, Bev claims the machines were networked to the internet

We know the technology exists- California rejected the modified "new" machines in 2003 .
This is what Bev Harris is reporting. No interest from MSM or Kerry..what does that tell you?

CNN Ignores Evidence, and Officials Stonewall...What Vote Fraud?
by Bev Harris, BlackBoxVoting

We saw Ukrainian presidential election coverage on CNN last night. It was surreal They were saying that in the Ukraine elections aren't transparent. 'Scuse me?

This, after CNN said they weren't interested in filming 59 orange-tagged records from Volusia, Florida showing that our elections have not been at all transparent, and are missing one-third of the key documents entirely. Psst. Don't look here. Look there.

The screen shots of the networked (!) Volusia County GEMS server alone, along with the logs showing attempts to access it remotely, should have hit the national press.

[stirringstill]

62. Access

Perhaps the following article is worth a read. People did have access in Cook Cty.
____________________________________
http://www.ecotalk.org/APvotes.htm

HOW A PRIVATE COMPANY COUNTS OUR VOTES ON ELECTION NIGHT

November 4, 2004

By Christopher Bollyn

American Free Press

When the polls closed in Chicago , American Free Press was at the Cook County clerk's office to see how the secretive private company that operates the voting machines in America ¡¯s third-largest city actually controls the counting of the votes.

CHICAGO , Illinois - The morning after Election Day, the Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards promised the nation that the Democrats would "make sure that every vote counts, and that every vote is counted."

Later in the day, as the Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. John Kerry, conceded defeat to George W. Bush, his 9th cousin and fellow Bonesman from Yale's elite secret society, The Order of the Skull & Bones, he said: "In America, it is vital that every vote count."

Kerry and Edwards, however, conceded defeat before some 170,000 - 250,000 provisional ballots from the state of Ohio , which could have changed the outcome of the election, had been counted.

As the public has been led to believe, the final tally came down to a near 50-50 split and it was the swing state of Ohio that made the difference.

But how were the votes actually counted across the nation on November 2?

VOTING IN CHICAGO

On Election Day, voters in Cook County ( Ill. ) were among the 60 million Americans who voted with machines made by Election Systems & Software, a secretive and private company based in Omaha .

ES&S, as its known, calls itself "the world's largest and most experienced provider of total election management solutions." According to the company's own figures, 42 percent of all registered voters in the United States voted on ES&S equipment on Election Day.

ES&S sells its "end-to-end election management suite of solutions" to replace traditional voting methods and election officials with what it calls "one-stop-shop full service election coordination from start to finish."

What this means on Election Day is that ES&S, a private company, manages everything about the voting, from voter registration, the printing of ballots, the programming of the voting machines, the counting and tabulation of the votes, and the final reporting of the results for 60 million Americans in 47 states.

Four years after first revealing the flaws inherent in the insecure ES&S electronic voting machines used in Cook County , American Free Press went to the county clerk's office to observe how ES&S controls the counting of the votes for America 's third largest city, Chicago , and the suburban area around it.

Scott Burnham, spokesman for the county clerk, had informed me that the vote count is open to the public and that press credentials would not be required. Shortly after arriving, I ran into Burnham and David Orr, the county clerk, in the hallway.

Although I had arrived just shortly before the polls closed at 7 p.m., I was the only member of the public or the press around except for a couple Associated Press (AP) reporters in the far corner of the room. They were busy setting up their laptop to the ES&S computer in the backroom, which provided them with direct feed of the results.

I was surprised to see so few people attending such an important event. In France , scores of citizens watch the vote count in each polling station.

While the results were coming in, the AP reporter read a novel while her laptop did the communicating.

When I went to talk to the AP reporter, Burnham quickly appeared and told me to leave. "You should talk to AP," he said.

"She is AP," I replied.

"She just works for AP," he said.

Clearly the subject of AP having direct data feed from the mainframe computer was something Burnham did not want me to discuss.

Dane Placko, a local reporter for the Fox News network, told AFP that "Fox gets direct feed."

Any actual counting of the votes by citizens is very rare in the United States except for a few counties in Montana and other states where paper ballots are still hand-counted. In most counties the ballots are treated as input data to be processed through computer systems controlled by private companies like ES&S.



In Cook County the ballot is inevitably a cluttered punch card with nearly 100 votes. After voting for the president and vice-president, a senator, and a Congressman, the voter has to wade through pages of choices to vote for some 80 local officials from the sanitation board to the state's general assembly. Every voter had to vote on nearly 80 judges.

As I voted, every ballot that was fed into the ES&S machine registered as an "undervote", as did mine.

Rather than holding separate elections for national and local officials, as is done in most countries, the Cook County ballot is extremely long and complicated. Officials who support electronic voting systems give the complexity of the ballot as the main reason why voting machines are necessary because it would take too much time to count the votes manually.

After calling and personally visiting ES&S headquarters in Omaha and Chicago, I can say it is the most secretive company I have ever come across. In August, I visited ES&S company headquarters on John Galt Blvd. in Omaha .

Although the company says it is the largest voting machine company in the United States , they were unable to provide any information about their company or their products. The ownership of the company is a closely-guarded secret. I asked to meet with Todd Urosevich, one of the two brothers that founded the company.

Bob and Todd Urosevich started ES&S as a company called Data Mark in the early 1980s. Today, Bob Urosevich heads Ohio-based Diebold Election Systems, a competitor of ES&S and the second largest U.S. manufacturer of electronic voting machines.

Together, the computerized ballot scanners and touch-screen voting machines systems made by ES&S and Diebold recorded some 80 percent of all votes cast in the recent U.S. presidential election.

As ES&S had no media relations person available and Todd Urosevich was not willing to be interviewed, the company's chief financial officer Tom O'Brien finally appeared. O'Brien, clearly displeased with my visit and questions, refused to provide any information about the company.

Although I was ill on Election Day, I knew I had to go to the county clerk's office to observe counting of the vote. It is, after all, the only counting open to the public. What I saw in Chicago , however, only made me more nauseous.

The only vote count the press or public can observe in Chicago is what is projected on screens. The opening screen read: ES&S Automatic Election Returns, Release 35, Under License to the City of Chicago , Serial No. 0004, Copyright 1987.

Carl Zimmerman, technical supervisor for the clerk's office, said that the computer that ran the system was in the back, "in the ES&S room," he said.

At 7 p.m., Jonathan Lin, a worker on the county clerk's computer staff, came out and turned on the monitors on the 6th floor, where the City of Chicago votes were tallied and displayed. Behind him was Rick Thurman, an ES&S technician, checking the first results.

Thurman seemed surprised when I asked him if he worked for ES&S. He said that the company had about 6 engineers running the computer in the back room. He then checked himself, saying he had said too much.

Later I asked Lin who was actually operating the computer that was generating the results being shown on the monitors. "ES&S is running the mainframe for all of this," Lin said pointing to the television displays.

In the press room in the back I noticed stacks of boxes containing Votamatic voting machines and pre-punched ballots printed by ES&S of Addison , Texas , for the different precincts in Cook County . In the rear hallway behind the press room was the ES&S room. Only ES&S personnel were allowed into the room.

When I poked around in the hallway and peeked into the ES&S room an armed marshal and ES&S employee quickly appeared. In no condition for a confrontation, I made myself scarce.

I met a couple reporters from CLTV, a local cable channel of WGN. One of the reporters asked about my interest in the Chicago tallies. I said I was interested to see how a private company runs the elections in Chicago .

Seemingly unaware of how ES&S operates elections in Cook County , I explained the basics. "I've observed elections across Europe," I added, "from France and Germany to Serbia and Holland . Everywhere in Europe voting is done on paper ballots that are counted by the citizens except Holland ."

Obviously uncomfortable with this discussion the reporter responded, I'm glad I'm not in Serbia . I don't mind if a machine counts the votes."

[brindis_desala]

67. Huh? did you READ what you posted?

"Although I was ill on Election Day, I knew I had to go to the county clerk's office to observe counting of the vote. It is, after all, the only counting open to the public. What I saw in Chicago , however, only made me more nauseous.

The only vote count the press or public can observe in Chicago is what is projected on screens. The opening screen read: ES&S Automatic Election Returns, Release 35, Under License to the City of Chicago , Serial No. 0004, Copyright 1987.

Carl Zimmerman, technical supervisor for the clerk's office, said that the computer that ran the system was in the back, "in the ES&S room," he said.

At 7 p.m., Jonathan Lin, a worker on the county clerk's computer staff, came out and turned on the monitors on the 6th floor, where the City of Chicago votes were tallied and displayed. Behind him was Rick Thurman, an ES&S technician, checking the first results.

Thurman seemed surprised when I asked him if he worked for ES&S. He said that the company had about 6 engineers running the computer in the back room. He then checked himself, saying he had said too much.

Later I asked Lin who was actually operating the computer that was generating the results being shown on the monitors. "ES&S is running the mainframe for all of this," Lin said pointing to the television displays.

In the press room in the back I noticed stacks of boxes containing Votamatic voting machines and pre-punched ballots printed by ES&S of Addison , Texas , for the different precincts in Cook County . In the rear hallway behind the press room was the ES&S room. Only ES&S personnel were allowed into the room."

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

78. Warren County was not a precinct lockdown

It was a tabulating center lockdown. That is what Madsen was talking about. Warren County and Santa Fe (supposedly a Dem lockdown?) are the only places that I have heard of that were locked down. 73 schools in Palm Beach County wouldn't qualify as the votes weren't counted there. I would like to know if Madsen has proof of other county tabulating places that were locked down.

Or if any of you have that information?

When I first read Madsen's article I was jumping for joy! Sent it off to a group of my email friends from AOL message boards, but then upon rereading it, the Warren County reference glared as I have not heard personally of another instance like that.

In my own opinion, it was done at the state level. Once all the numbers were coming in, a little bit here and a little bit there were padded for Bush. Very similar to Bev Harris' show and tell to Howard Dean. I don't think with Diebold and ES&S help, an elaborate scheme was needed. Of course, disenfranchising tens of thousands of voters helped them too.....

There was also that BBC report about Rove on election night. He supposedly heard Kerry was ahead, and then he went to work on a bank of computers on a dining room in the White House. The numbers for the election started to change in Bush's favor.

[nodictators]

28. There was a news article about a former employee of...

ES&S who was allowed in a back room with the county election computers. I seem to recall that it was in Auglaize County, OH. I have the article somewhere.

One might also recall that in Florida 2000, there were two civil cases heard re Repub operatives allowed in the rooms with the election computers in two counties. The judges involved finally dismissed them for something or other.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

80. Here's the article on the ES&S Employee, Joe McGinnis.

http://www.theeveningleader.com/articles/2004/11/06/news/news.01.txt

Excerpt:

In a letter dated Oct. 21, Ken Nuss, former deputy director of the Auglaize County Board of Elections, claimed that Joe McGinnis, a former employee of Election Systems and Software (ES&S), the company that provides the voting system in Auglaize County, was on the main computer that is used to create the ballot and compile election results, which would go against election protocol. Nuss claimed in the letter that McGinnis was allowed to use the computer the weekend of Oct. 16.



Nuss, who resigned from his job Oct. 21 after being suspended for a day, was responsible for overseeing the computerized programming of election software, according to his job description. His resignation is effective Nov. 11.

[jdj]

75. Unsupervised Diebold tech in Gaston County, NC Nov. 2nd

all of a sudden the elections director lawyered up and went on medical leave (11/23). The shit is hitting the fan there, links in state & country forums under NC, I just posted them yesterday.

[stirringstill]

19. Waiting For More

Based on the information provided by Madsen, the scheme sounds huge but that doesn't mean it required "thousands" as some have posted on other boards. Madsen wrote "technicians." It is safest to stick with what he has provided and not read into it too much. Besides, IRAN-Contra certainly involved more than a few people and they were on the whole quite good at keeping the lid on things. The Bush family rewards loyalty and trust, and any scheme could easily be compartmentalized in such a way that the big picture remains hidden to most everybody involved. People would insulate themselves by choosing not to know. A door left unlocked, a bank account here, a name over there, a phone number, hire this person. Who knows? But without further details, we can not dismiss Madsen nor should we start screaming PROOF. So we wait.

[mirrera]

21. Lock downs

Actually there were other lock downs. There is another thread started by Eloriel. asking people to post stories other then Warren county. The link to it is in the thread about Madsen's article. When I stopped reading late last night quite a few had come in. I also read an article about how Ashcroft placed agents all over the country.

"FBI to get help on Election Day plots
By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Attorney General John Ashcroft quietly has issued a sweeping directive that authorizes the FBI to use hundreds of law enforcement agents from other federal agencies to help investigate any terrorist plots that target the Nov. 2 elections. (Related story: Election warning causes anxiety)...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-10-07-fbi-help_x.htm

I don't think Kieth Olbermann is out there digging NEW stuff up. I have never seen anything on his blog that I didn't see somewhere else. Lets not get caught up in the circular thinking that if Kieth doesn't report it , it hasn't happened.

Also I want to throw something out there that may get me blasted, but it is on my mind and I want some opinions. I watched on Bev Harris's forum when Cybernet came up on a really criptic and badly backed up post. I lurked and also checked out Cybernet Group which was the name I found on the newspaper report. I watched as the "game of telephone" changed it to Cybernet Ventures (porn) and Cybernet.com (military) and when I saw someone actually steering others to the wrong address I posted the right one and left.

Here is my thought. I am suspicious of anything that is kept out of the press these days. This company had 12 offices world wide, the FBI under Ashcroft's orders gets raided and ALL computers taken, the CEO "shoots himself" during a late night stand off with police, and NOTHING in the MSM?

What if Madsen's story is true, but those technicians were supposed to be paid. What if Cybernet Group was some kind of middle man, and pulled a double cross. The charges have to do supposedly with bank fraud and wire mail fraud. The CEO has been in trouble before. I just had to get that off my mind!
Read the story again and think about how big this fraud is. (Read Vote Scam by the Collier brothers)
The Raid:
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=2591580
Ceo Shoots himself:
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/cyb112404.cfm

It probably has nothing to do with anything, but I would think after Enron, the MSM would have loved that story at least as much as shopping, or Sponge Bob.

[Carl Brennan]

41. 73 SCHOOLS IN FLORIDA LOCKED DOWN. ALSO IN NM AZTEC SCHOOLS

[merh]

25. You can watch all you want. How does posting about it and

sharing the madsen story get us involved?

Other incidents? Check out this link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2750379

[roseBudd]

27. The ONLY reason we know about the Warren County lockdown is

because the Cincinnati Enquirer wrote about it. Keith Olberman did not break the story, the newspaper did. If other lockdowns occured but the relevant press did not publicize it, no one would know.

What we do know thanks to the Cincinnati Enquirer requesting all relevant memos and emails is that the decision was made on Oct. 25, but the press was not informed until they showed up on election night and were barred.

[Garbo 2004]

33. Correct but Madsen cites media reports around the country of precinct

lockdowns in addition to the one in Warren County. If there are such media reports, we should be able to find them. That's one way to determine if Madsen is accurate or sloppy in his reporting by looking at a statement that can be verified or not. Or at least we can see whether he is given to exaggeration if there aren't as many reports as his article might lead one to believe.

[pointsoflight]

47. There are more media reports of lockdowns.

There's a whole DU thread on this.

[jamboi]

29. I fully agree that we need to be cautious and not get sucked in

we'll see what happens.

[geo]

48. dissent

Not agreeing with your analysis.

Actually, the more decentralized it is, and the less proof you leave the person actually committing the rape of our vote, the more chance you have at dismissing them later as either a bunch of crackpots or you could just say they are trying to frame bush and that they did it all themselves.

Ther is plausible deniability even with larger efforts. It just depends on how it is worked.

Now, here is where I agree with your sentiment. We should at least excercice a healthy level of skepticism. :)

You intentions are likely good, but don't be too quick in dismissing things either. The trick is to debunk them, and your conjecture alone on the plausibility of more people being involved doesn't quite do it entirely.

Thanks for posting though and welcome to DU! :)

Warmly,

George

[jamboi]

53. Me? I haven't put forth any analysis. I just think we need caution.

We want this to stick if we come out with it and we don't want to be marginalized. Thanks for the welcome!

JamBoi

[NVMojo]

51. duh, how short memories are, what about the Enron schemes?

lots involved before a whistleblower finally spoke up.

[Clark2008]

54. Olbermann's assessment is the correct one

particularly if you want the mainstream - not just media, but average American - to take a good hard look at the election fraud.

Look, Madsen has written some pretty off-the-wall articles in his past. Things that made my tin foil hat smoulder.

What was interesting about the article in question is that there were only about three paragraphs dealing with the technicians. The rest was a collection of other alleged nefarious details and crooked money-changing that had nothing to do with the lead of the story. And, in the two or three paragraphs that did deal with the lead in the story, he got one glaring fact incorrect: that Warren County is the only county that had a lockdown during the counting of the votes.

I'm still very skeptical.

If Madsen believes in what he's reporting, fine. I'm sure he's a nice person who really believes in what he's doing, but I'm still very much in the court of cautious concern. I still believe that if we want NASCAR Dad and Security Mom (yes, I hate those terms, too) to pay attention, become concerned and demand answers, the smoking gun needs to come from a more mainstream source. This is absolutely something on which progressive, liberal and left-leaning moderate voters cannot be discredited. We need a hard-line look at these voting machines, the intimidation of voters and the lack of educational and informative freedom in the national media (all of which contributed to the Bush "win," in my opinion).

If these technicians really have a story to tell, why are they going to a reporter who is lesser known and not to a mainstream reporter and/or the FBI?

In case you guys haven't noticed, the FBI has been all over this in a good way. The Feebies are following up on leads in nearly every state, if you look closely at all the goings on reported here on this very board. I think they smell something cooking. Don't think for one minute that the FBI adores the Bushites. I rather suspect that they are not happy that Shrub has blamed the entire intelligence community for his failure to comprehend such difficult reading material as, "Bin Laden To Attack The United States."

[flyarm]

63. REPLY TO GET A GRIP

ITS ME WHO GOT THE MESSAGE FROM KEITH...WHAT MANY ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING..ITS NOT THE POLLING PLACES THAT WERE LOCKED DOWN THAT ARE IN QUESTIONS ..ITS THE TALLY PLACES..THE PLACES WHERE THE VOTES ARE TABULATED AND SENT TO THE STATE FOR CERTIFICATION AND TABULATION OF COUNTY VOTES!!

NOT POLLING PLACES THAT MR MADSEN WAS REFERING OT..THATS WHAT THE LOCK DOWN IN WARREN CO WAS ABOUT..NOT THE POLLING PROCESS BUT THE TABULATION PROCESS!! AND THE PROCESS OF SENDING LOCAL COUNTY VOTES TO THE STATE !!

Need verification of any voting "tabulation" center anywhere in nation that was "LOCKED DOWN" election night !

CENTERS WHERE POLLING CARTRIDGES AND VOTING MACHINE COMPUTER CARDS , TABULATIONS FROM OPTICAL SCAN MACHINES ..CALLED TALLY CENTERS IN SOME STATES, STATE CANVASSING IN SOME OTHERS, AND TABULATION CENTERS IN OTHER STATES..AND COUNTIES.

ONCE AGAIN, NOT POLLING PLACES!!!!

IF ANYONE KNOWS OR FINDS ANY INFO ON A TABULATION CENTER THAT WAS LOCKED DOWN ANYHWERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY ELECTION NIGHT, OR THE MORNING AFTER, PLEASE EMAIL IT TO KEITH OLBERMAN!! THATS WHAT HE NEEDS FOR VERIFICATION , AS THAT IS WHAT MADSEN REFERED TO!

[rosyhue]

71. to the original "get a grip" poster

You offer good advice, as anything fraud related can wig us out needlessly. I disagree with you about prez barf being unwilling to risk his rep by hiring hackers and having so many operatives involved, though. (If this story is true). The Barf camp thinks they are untouchable. And lets face it - they ARE. They rigged the 2000 election and got away w/it. They invaded Iraq, continue to kill thousands to this very day, admitted to the absence of WMDs and STILL have a devoted fan base. Why would they worry about dissing a hacker or two? They know darn well the MSM isn't going to touch an election fraud story. And whose going to take online election-dicks seriously? We're liberal conspiracy theorists, remember?

They liken themselves to GODS.

[genieroze]

34. Why are people with low post counts trying to discredit this story

or trying to steer us in another direction, humm? That seems odd to me, IMHO.

[jamboi]

35. I hope you're not refering to me. I'm not trying to discredit, just to be

cautious. I'm one of the folks who's actually taken the time to correspond w/ WM.

[genieroze]

40. No not you

and it's not just this post. I have noticed when something seems plausible we get a naysayer or two or more. Seems a bit odd.

[jamboi]

43. Whew! :-) n/t

[Carl Brennan]

36. Freeps have been known to do that. They are coincidence theorists.

But that is not to say that is what happening here.

[jamboi]

37. That may be, but I'm certainly no Freeper. n/t

[Sideways]

39. Because They Are Terrified That Jesus W Bush Is The Fraud We KNOW He Is

n/t

[Jadeblue]

42. Huh?

Just curious - what do low post counts have to do with a persons ability to reason and ask a valid question? Some of us may have low post counts on this board but have spent considerable time on other boards. I would hope that new voices would be welcomed here - but it seems that I'm continually reading disparaging remarks made about new posters. Why is that?

Many people did not even know that this board existed until after the election. I guess conspiracies can be found everywhere - it's unfortunate at a time when Democrats really need to be bonded together. The party surely needs more active participants not less.

Don't you think?

[Paligal]

45. HELLO? We need to be rational

It's not an attempt to discredit the story, merely a request for credible evidence before we start using it as support for our work to prove election fraud. I would LOVE for that story to be proven true. I say, we need to dig deeper into it. But it is irresponsible and harmful to our cause to spread an unsupported allegation as proof of fraud, because if it is then shot down as false and we have no proof, our WHOLE argument can then be discredited by the opposition. Don't you get that?

[flyarm]

72. RATIONAL INDEED

INDEED THERE NEEDS TO BE RATIONALITY, AND DISCOUNTING OTHERS VOICES WHO QUESTION IS NOT
DEBATE, RATIONAL DEBATE AND RESEARCH
ITS WHAT BRINGS TRUTH OUT, ITS WHAT BRINGS SOLID FACTS TO LIGHT. WE CAN ALL POST STUFF AND IT CAN ALL SOUND GOOD BUT WITH NO BASIS IN FACT, WE BECOME WHAT THE CONS WANT US TO BE TIN FOIL HAT NUT CASES..MADSEN MAY BE RIGHT ON, BUT HIS STORY LEAVES TOO MANY HOLES, AND A FEW OF HIS ARTICLES HAVE BEEN QESTIONABLE. SO IT IS THE READERS RESPONSIBILITY TO DECERN FOR THEM SELVES WHAT IS FACT AND WHAT IS SPECULATION, AND WHAT HAS BEEN PROVEN , AND WHAT HAS NOT. THAT IS HEALTHY FOR DEMOCRACY..DO WE WANT TO BE LIKE THE CONS AND SHUT DOWN DIALOG??..NOT ME THANKS...I WANT TO LOOK UNDER EVERY ROCK AND STONE AND FIND EVER MORSAL OF TRUTH ABOUT THIS CORRUPT CABAL IN MY WHITE HOUSE ..AMND I WANT THEM TOSSED OUT NOW...BUT FACTS VERIFIABLE FACTS ARE WHAT WE NEED ..SO THOSE WRITING MADSEN PLEASE ASK HIM TO FILL THE HOLES IN HIS STORY..TELL HIM TO WRITE OLBERMAN AND ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN IN HIS STORY....KEITH WOULD LOVE TO TELL THE STORY IF IT CAN BE VERIFIED!!

[Digit]

49. Noticed the same thing....12 posts....hmmmmmm

[flyarm]

68. LOW POST COUNTS..

BECAUSE MAYBE SOME OF US WERE WORKING IN THIS CAMPAIGN AND DIDNT HAVE TIME TO POST HERE BEFORE..I FOR ONE WAS A DELEGATE TO
THE CONVENTION AND WAS OUT SPEAKING FOR KERRY NIGHTLY, AND I HAD A KERRY FIELD REP LIVING WITH ME AND WHO OPENED ONE OF THE BIGGEST KERRY CAMPAIGN OFFICES HERE IN FLA, AND I SPENT 12-15 HOURS A DAY ON COMPUTERS THERE DOING REGISTRATION VERIFICATIONS AND CHARTING FOR THE FDP AND I DID 15 HOURS A DAY ABSENTEE BALLOT COMPUTER WORK SEEING WHERE WE NEEDED TO SEND CANVASERS ON A DAILY BASIS..I WAS FEEDING ALL THE VOLUNTEERS ETC.
MAYBE JUST MAYBE SOME OF US WERE TO BUSY TO POST HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEFORE THE ELECTION ..CAUSE WE WERE OUT THERE DOING THE WORK! PLEASE PEOPLE YOU DO NOT HAVE EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO FEELING BAD RIGHT NOW..MANY OF US PUT IN ENDLESS HOURS AND WORKED OURSELVES TO THE BONES TO GET KERRY INTO OFFICE AND BUSH OUT!!.YOU DO NOT HAVE THE TIME NOR THE RIGHT QUESTION WHY OTHERS ARE ONLY NOW POSTING , UNLESS YOU HAVE WALKED THE WALK, AND DONE THE HOURS UPON HOURS WEEKS UPON WEEKS , THE DAYS UPON DAYS AND THE OVER A YEAR AND A HALF THAT I HAVE WORKED THIS CAMPAIGN..NOR THE MONEY I HAVE SPENT DOING SO...MANY OF US ARE ONLY NOW GETTING OUR HEADS UP OFF OUR PILLOWS OF TEARS!!
I AM NOT CRITIZING ANYONE WHO DID NOT DO THE WORK , SO PLEASE DO NOT QUESTION THOSE OF US WHO DID DO THE WORK!! WE MAY BE NEW HERE IN FACT I AM N0T..I USED TO POST HERE A LONG TIME AGO, AFTER 9/11, BUT SINCE I WAS A FLIGHT ATTENDANT(FOR 33 YRS NY BASED JUST RETIRED)
FOR ONE OF THE AIRLINES INVOLVED IN 9/11 AND MY CO WORKERS WERE KILLED THAT DAY.I HAVE PUT EVERY OUNCE OF MYSELF INTO GETTING THE LIAR AND MURDERER OUT OF THIS WHITE HOUSE SO HE COULD BE PROSCECUTED.

I HAVE BEEN OUT SPEAKING WITH MAX CLELAND , AND IN FORUMS WITH SENATOR BOB KERRY...AND RUNNING KERRY RALLYS IN MY AREA, OF WHICH WE HAD MANY HERE IN FLA...PLEASE DO NOT QUESTION PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE NEW HERE..I UNDERSTAND SUSPICIONS...AND I APPRECIATE THEM, BUT REMEMBER MANY OF US NEWBIES HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN THIS TOO..ITS OUR COUNTRY AS WELL!!

[rockedthevoteinMA]

73. Thank you for all your hard work flyarm!!

I am new here too, but I wanted to say thank you and

Welcome to DU!!:hi:

It's heartbreaking to read what others have done/gone through in this campaign - and how now we all have to fight for what was most likely (well definitely) stolen from us.

I see a lot of people unwilling to trust on here, and I understand both sides of it, but a lot of people seem to be a bit more sensitive than usual, (myself included).

Thanks again.

[flyarm]

74. NO NEED FOR THANKS..I DID IT FOR MY COUNTRY..

AND FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS...NO ONE KNOWS HOW I BLAME BUSH FOR 9/11 AND I KNOW FROM YEARS OF EXPERIENCE..I DID WHAT I DID BECAUSE I HAD TO ...I HAD NO CHOICE..ITS IN MY SOUL...AND I KNOW MORE THAN MOST WHAT CRIMINALS THIS BUSH CABAL IS....I WAS A POLL WATCHER FOR PRIMARIES IN AUG HERE IN FLA SO I COULD BE POLL WATCHER AT LARGE..( MOVE AROUND PRECINCTS) I POLL WATCHED FOR 2 WEEKS OF EARLY VOTING AND EXPERIENCED INTIMIDATION BY SUPERVISORS AT SOE OFFICES, SOMETIMES 12 HOURS A DAY OR MORE...I POLL WATCHED THE ELECTION NOV 2ND..AND I AM DISAPPOINTED ..NO I AM HEART BROKEN...BUT DETERMINED TO GET TO THE TRUTH...BUT I KNOW DISINFORMATION DOES NOT HELP THE CAUSE..IT ONLY MUDDIES THE WATER..THERE WERE DEFINITE ANOMOLIES..AND THERE WAS DEFINITE VOTER SUPRESSION, BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU HERE WHERE I AM IN FLA..I SAW MANY MORE KERRY VOTERS THAN BUSH VOTERS FROM INSIDE AND OUT SIDE THE POLLING PLACES..AND HOW DO I KNOW THAT...WELL IN PINELLAS COUNTY FLA KERRY HAD VOLUNTEERS HANDING OUT BUTTONS, T-SHIRT, FANS WITH KERRY/EDWARDS ON THEM AND WATER BOTTLES..THE WATER WAS NOT A TELL TALE SIGN, AS IT WAS HOT AND EVEN BUSH VOTERS I AM USRE TOOK WATER, BUT THE FANS ANDT SHIRTS AND BUTTONS WERE NOT TAKEN BY BUSH VOTERS, AND WHAT I SAW OF VOTERS , THE MAJORITY I WAS SAYING EARLY VOTING 8-9 OUT OF TEN WERE KERRY VOTERS, AND IN GENERAL ELECTION...6-7 OUT OF TEN WERE KERRY VOTERS...I HAVE NO DOUBT OF THAT WHERE I WAS...NO DOUBT AT ALL!! BUT WE SUPOSSEDLY LOST PINELLAS BY 155 VOTES!!..I DONT BELIEVE IT FOR ONE SECOND!!

THANKS FOR YOUR WELCOMING ROCKEDTHEVOTEMA!!

[IAMREALITY]

76. Welcome!

Now PLEASSSSSSE STOP USING ALL CAPS! THAT IS FOR YELLING, NOT TALKING!! (As per DU Rules)

:hi:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

79. Thank you Flyarm, and it's great to see you here!

Although I am a newbie too, Flyarm and I have been close friends after meeting on AOL News Message boards over 2 years ago. Her dedication for getting the truth out there is monumental.

When John Kerry was clearly going to be nominated, she worked tirelessly to become a convention delegate. She had reems of printouts to hand out in Boston about PNAC. Told her story to prominent delegates, ie Janet Reno. After the convention, broke her ass helping the Dems in Florida. She also put Bob Kerrey to the wall for the mistruths that came out of the 9/11 Commission. She left him speechless, and she brought tears to Max Cleland's eyes.

Her greatest inspiration are her Angels, her fellow airline workers who lost their lives on 9/11.

You are one of my heros Fly, and I am honored that you are my dear friend. :)

[noclonyofthechimp]

81. Wow! You have overextended yourself! My hats are off! Thank You!

From a newbie here in FL!

[jamboi]

38. I GOT ANOTHER REPLY... more info back on the other thread...

going back to "Technicians..."

[Paligal]

44. Be careful

Please, be careful about using dubious sources to support our arguments. It could discredit our whole position if it later turns out to be false information.

The article in question really worries me as to its credibility. The informants cited are only cited as "informed sources" with no credentials. Further, if disgruntled people DID rig the election and come forward, why would they go to some unknown reporter with it and nowhere else? If they have valid evidence, they would approach a well known figure- even a Michael Moore type, if CNN or the New York Times wasn't listening (which, with irrefutable evidence, I believe they would). They would probably not approach an "Online" journalist and nobody else.

While this COULD be true, at this point, I see no credible evidence backing up their allegations. So that's what they remain, allegations. Spreading them as evidence for our cause only makes us look like liars if we use them and they prove to be false. Remember Dan Rather?

[pointsoflight]

46. I agree that caution is in order, but Madsen is not an unknown

He actually has quite solid credentials and has covered a number of controversial topics over the years that others wouldn't touch.

[NVMojo]

52. some people are never happy, which makes me think "freepers"

when a reporter puts it out there like this ...they put alot at stake and there are few left who do this anymore. Hard to believe this is the same board that pounds the crap out of the MSM for being Rove lap dogs and talking the usual kool aid blah blah blah. Talk about a bunch of flip floppers. Why don't you all just sit back, shut up and wait, oh and let others read this and make up their own minds. You are acting like a bunch of mini Rove trainees. Get your jack boots on.

[Joe Chi Minh]

55. Nothing here.

Move along, 'kay?

[Paligal]

61. So we are supposed to just accept any unresearched "proof"

That's exactly what a Karl Rove type wants- someone who doesn't question anything put in front of them, but just accepts it as truth. Your method will bite you in the a** because if you throw out unverified stories as fact, the republicans will poke holes in it and effectively be able to claim that your WHOLE theory is a crackpot conspiracy theory, when in fact, it is not. Why would you want us to spread a story that could damage us? Makes me wonder if YOU aren't the one setting us up, Dan Rather style: Feed us a story, get us to spread it, and then knock us down as liars. What is wrong with digging into the story and requiring proof? If we can get some actual evidence, as in an actual hacker who will speak as to HOW, when, who, and where, and is willing to go on record, then we are in business!

[Donailin]

65. Website promoting the Madsen piece

Wayne is a reputable investigative reporter. He takes risks. If no one took risks, there never would have been watergate. And as an aside, I listened to C-span for five hours today. Guess what the topic was? Assasination of JFK and the 40th anniversary of the Warren Report. Guess what? They're still debunking it, most scholars agree that there was a second gunman, many believe the CIA is implcated. It's forty years later and the conspiarcy is so complicated and so widespread that it may be another forty before we ever really know everything. The gummint lies, people. And this gummint is patholical in that regard. So keep a very open mind here, Bush and Co. have their tentacles spread throughout the globe, unless you've lived under a rock for the past four years and stil think they aren't crazy like a fox, it's advisable put nothing past them.


http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/


Exposed: Funding vote fraud -- a "five star" investigation
Hope you all had a fine Thanksgiving. If the following account is true, we may not that damned turkey hanging around for another four years.

Saudi money? For vote fraud-watchers, the article of the day must be Wayne Madsen's piece in the Online Journal. It is a must-read:


November 25, 2004 -- According to informed sources in Washington and Houston, the Bush campaign spent some $29 million to pay polling place operatives around the country to rig the election for Bush. The operatives were posing as Homeland Security and FBI agents but were actually technicians familiar with Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S, Triad, Unilect, and Danaher Controls voting machines. These technicians reportedly hacked the systems to skew the results in favor of Bush.

The leak about the money and the rigged election apparently came from technicians who were promised to be paid a certain amount for their work but the Bush campaign interlocutors reneged and some of the technicians are revealing the nature of the vote rigging program.
Madsen goes on to say that money for the operations was funnelled through a Saudi-linked financial entity based in Houston called Five Star Trust, which was also apparently used to fund both Bush and Bin Laden.

Other monies came from carefully-hidden Enron loot stashed away in the Cook Islands:


Cook Islands banks also handled some of the weapons smuggling financing of the Iran-Contra scandal. A former Justice Department attorney who helped prosecute the BCCI case said the use of the Cook Islands by the Bush reelection team indicates they wanted the bank arrangements to be a "quick folding tent" operation that would cease to exist when the election was over.
Madsen goes on to detail the complex history of these Cook Island accounts, which apparently continue in the same inglorious money-laudering tradition of the Nugan/Hand bank.

The article does not name names -- that is, Madsen's sources have not gone on the record. Not yet. But Madsen is a serious writer, his account is detailed, and his knowledge of parapolitical financing is solid. This is the sort of article that either changes history or proves to be a scarlet red herring.

My guess? I'll bet you three donuts that his sourcing amounts to more than mere scuttlebutt.

So pass Madsen's piece around. Let's all do what we can to solidify this research. For example...

[jamboi]

57. MADSEN SAYS HE'LL UPDATE THE ARTICLE W/ NEW INFO.

I corresponded w/ him and and I said I was hesitant to try to speak for him. He said probably the best idea was to update the OnlineJournal article. I agree. I'm continuing to use the "Technicians..." thread as the main place to post for now, at least until we have something really solid to dig into.

[trayfoot]

58. Madsen email

I sent Madsen an email and have received nothing in return. Frankly, I feel the "jig is up" on the entire election investigation thing. We have heard wonderful things - only to have them called back within 48 hours (like the Florida suit). It just does not appear that people are willing to put "ass on the line" to protect democracy - a dying concept here in the U.S. To me, that is a sad commentary on our so-called civilized society.

[geo]

60. did you use his aol address?

He has written back to several who e-mailed him. Did you try the right address? Just curious... :) -G

[trayfoot]

64. This is what I wrote......

Mr. Madsen,

I read your article at Online Journal for Nov. 25th. I would beg with you to release ANY sources you may have to the public immediately. he mainstream media is not going to touch the fraud story without HARD PROOF. Right now, it looks like the recount in Ohio will be impeded - or at the very least not given the sufficient amount of time for completion. Looks like the Volusia lawsuit will be thrown out because it was filed a day late. In other words, this country is being screwed!

Having taught government for 33 years, I am beside myself at the thought of what I see happening to this nation. We are no longer a democracy - we are a fascist society, people just haven't realized that as yet. This election is the third "stolen election" of which I am aware - and there could have been many others. If we do not address this NOW, we may as well "bend over". So, if you have the info that can turn this hideous tide, I would beg that you release it immediately. No less than the future of this nation depends on being able to prove that GWB lost this election.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.
***********************************

AND - this is where I sent it: [e-mail]

[jamboi]

66. I wouldn't be so quick to despair. The burden of proof for FL was

so high (ie. Bev said on Thom Hartman today that FL law appearently requires you show solid proof that there was so much fraud that the election could have flipped) that not Bev, nor probably even Kerry had he jumped in immediately could have done that rapidly enough to make it happen. Ohio is still very much on the table and so the question of the next president is still an (even if only slightly) open question. If we aren't able to flip Ohio then we may still end up w/ grounds for impeachment, and at worst the Repub. end up w/ a very black eye w/ the Dems can take full advantage of. And more importantly we'll be able to get election reform.

[geo]

59. thanks jamboi

thanks for getting back with Mr. Madsen. I'm sure we all look forward to his update. :) -G

[Cha]

69. Great! I've been reading Wayne Madsen

for two years now and have never had any credibility problems..always found him to be an excellent reporter.

Thanks for trying to get answers, Rogue!

[jamboi]

77. NEW STRATEGIZING THREAD FOR US TO COORDINATE ALL THIS WORK

NEW STRATEGIZING THREAD FOR US TO COORDINATE ALL THIS WORK

For those of us who want to help connect the dots in Madsen's hypotheses there is a new strategizing thread located below to follow up on all the good work that Eloriel and so many others are doing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=5684