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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:41 PM
Original message
Bev Harris on Thom Hartman No recount in Florida
Bev Harris was just on Thom Hartman and said there will be no recount in Florida. The deadline was Tuesday and because Florida has such a high bar for criteria to do a recount, she wasn't able to meet it in time. She would have had to prove 380,000 votes were in question and they were short. :(
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Question, why is Bev Harris in Florida and not Ohio...nt
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I don't know but
I know that she has a ton of evidence of irregularities in Florida. We'll see I guess.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. I'm thinking the lead on this thread is not quite correct. She only said
that we can't contest the election, not necessarily that there can't be a recount. I'm not sure these are the same thing.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Do we have any hope through the Sunshine Law?
Sorry if this has been asked already--but I didn't see it here.
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. My understanding is
that the deadline for a recount petition has passed therefor no recount
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. So they are just going to let Bush steal Florida again?
Everyonce said that it would come down to Ohio.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Kerry should be tarred and feathered
He isn't operating according to a plan. He now appears to have been little more than a shill for Bush. I was fooled by him, too.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Kerry is a War Hero and Patriot, and Deserves Better From You
"Kerry should be tarred and feathered"

Sounds much to me like something I would hear from the insurgents in Iraq...

...Oh, but wait, this is America
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. Us Dems look like a bunch of whiners attacking Kerry after what he went
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 02:15 AM by NVMojo
through with that nasty ass campaign. My dad is a Viet Nam vet and I can't imagine someone coming back on him years later if he ran for public office, challenging and degrading his service in that nasty ass war.

Quit acting like a bunch of whiny flip floppers and push forward. We are all being screwed right along with Kerry.

Ask yourself this question: Do you really know why he and Edwards have taken the background approach?

How do you really know what extremes the Bush administration may gone to that was lower then anything they had already done before the election to keep their greedy, power hungry claws on our country? don't think these lowlifes were ever going to let Kerry win and take their best toy away. We were just innocents for not paying enough attention to stop the take over of our voting democracy over the past four years.

It's time to RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINES AND THE BORGS WHO CONTROL THEM!
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. No great loss since Jeb would have just certified a Bush
set of electors no matter what the result, and the Republicans in Congress would have decided in their favor.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. so.. fraud is ok in florida
as long as you can hide just enough it

even though scholarly studies showed that 2/3 of the margin of victory was in question.

damn liberal-elites tryin' t'tell us how t'count the vote!
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rsmith6621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Whats Next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!........



Lets just focus on OH.
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. No, it is not ok
It must be investigated. It is just not going to affect this election. Bev's efforts have been to uncover the vulnerabilities of the computerized voting, and expose probable fraud that has taken place across the country.

Her team has done a phenomenal job in getting publicity for this issue, and as long as we continue to support he efforts, we have a real chance for meaningful reform and justice.

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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. agreed
my comment was intended to speak to the absurdity of the Florida law establishing criteria for recounts
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. No, Bev is persuing fraud. Only contesting the overall contesting of the
presidential election is passed by because of the lateness of the suit. She said on the show that she couldn't contest it because the burden of proof was so extremely high for that. That doesn't stop any other criminal investigations of fraud.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Even Volusia County
where all the fraud was going on? I thought they had to recount if you filed...
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wasn't her "big news" the lawsuit in florida?
Now two days later it's over? She would have known that then, that is really disappointing.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
41. THEY ARE RECOUNTING VOLUSIA COUNTY
It was too late and they had too little to contest the election.

But they are STILL investigating Volusia, yo.
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. THE OTHER BUSH GOON REIGNS IN FLORIDA THEREFORE, NO RECOUNT!
THE BUSHES ARE TRULY EVIL THOUGH THE HIDE IN A MASK OF CHRISTIAN COMPASSIONATE MORALITY THEY NEITHER ARE CHRISTIAN NOR DO THEY HAVE ANY MORALITY. 'nuff said... i am going to rake the leaves in my backyard.
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. Ditto to what you said, except about raking the leaves...wish We as
the People could rake those fakes out of office just as easily as they cheated themselves in, on a so-called 'moral mandate.'

Heil Cowboy Hitler!

Too bad and too sad we don't have the true moral courage exemplified by the Ukrainians...
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YBR31 Donating Member (83 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. What is the statue of limitations on prosecuting election fraud in Florida
Bev said that the deadline has passed to request a recount in Florida. What if it can be demonstrated that fraud took place? Any lawyers know if the election results can be contested if fraud took place?
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Quite possibly. I think the original poster over-read what Bev said. n/t
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. I didn't over-read
she said they missed the deadline for doing recounts because of Florida's incredibly high bar of standards that have to be met to contest. That's all I said.

I believe she will still pursue the fraud case but that will be a different route she will have to take.
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. I don't believe there is a time limit in regards to
proving fraud. I think that has to be handled in a different way ie. going through the courts etc. The deadline for contesting based on close election results and getting a recount has passed.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. This is WHY we ALL...
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. Is Bev Harris doing this solo or does she have attorneys as advisors?
I don't care if it's 38 or 380,000 votes. Minorities were suppressed from voting. That's discrimination. And those people need to be protected if they're going to come forth and talk about what happened to them.

I'm disgusted with the racist overtones of this tainted election, especially considering the same thing happened in 2000. Where the hell are our congressional leaders? Are we sliding backwards in history, back to the time when it's okay if the "darkies" have no rights.

I'm pissed. You bet. This is wrong, absolutely wrong. There must be another approach to get past the thorny Florida regulations.
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CementDude Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. Been There - Done That - In Volusia.. Please move on..
I've asked this in other threads..

So as you know, we've been-there-done-that in Volusia. Back in 2000, fraud was suspected. The very same "characters" were involved. You can read all about on BBV. In fact, in 2000, the results from almost the very same precincts were in question!

No arrests. No civil law suit victories. Nothing.

And so here is Bev, back on the scene 4 years later. She goes in with a plan, plenty of time and apparently has some success. She told us of dumped polling tapes, suspicious behavior, conflicting results, lockdowns... Yet, it looks like nothing is going to happen - again.

No arrests. No civil law suit victories. Nothing.

If fraud happened, then why isn't someone going to jail? I'm beginning to think either the evidence isn't very good, or there was a very good explanation for it all, or that there is a conspiracy so large - everyone must be in on it (except for the DUers here).

Bev, please go to Ohio. There is another week or so of good work you could be doing there.
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wlubin Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. Our job in florida now is to make it known that fraud took place, and
therefore show that this election of dumbya is illegitimate.
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lthuedk Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
19. So, what was all the talk about it being OK to use the "F" word at BBV?
And what was the "Heh, heh, heh" stuff long before the civil suit was filed?

It is really cruel to say these things. Either there's a criminal case or not.

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. Isn't her Volusia evidence enough to start a criminal case?.
Fraud is not a matter of there having been sufficient votes to overturn the election.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Of Course! And Bev is persuing that. Just because she is not able to
persue a contesting of the election for president is totally unrelated to getting a recount or bringing fraud charges. On the program she ran out of time before she could explain exactly what she had in mind, so we can't be sure, but she did say that the actual "contesting the election" part had a huge entry barrier of proof that she couldn't reach, but that doesn't mean she can't go after cases of fraud. Totally different things.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. i wouldn't be too discouraged by this
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 03:19 PM by Faye
what she has already found, and what more she will find will be good enough to add to the entire case in the end.
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geo Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Actually, proving fraud in Florida still has a shot....
but it has to be conclusive that the results are tainted.

In another thread we have been kicking around the equal protection clause of the 14th amednment, as well as other legal arguments:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=79652&mesg_id=79652

One writer had the concern that if we prove Ohio had tainted results that violated the equal protection clause enough to change the outcome, it may lay the ground for the other side to make a court challenge against Kerry electors from Ohio if the vote did pull his way.

This lit the proverbial light bulb within, and I realized that this might not only be the answer to our election woes, but may, depending on what gets proven where, shift the winer in this election.

Please read the thread and weigh in with input. :)

Thanks!

Warmly,

George
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is DISHEARTENING! Can we get a break??? N/T
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 03:38 PM by BlueCaliDem04
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jayray Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
26. Volusia Dem sues to throw out county election results
Despite Bev Harris' decision not to seek a recount due to the lack of time to prove 380,000 ballots were in question, a separate lawsuit was filed in Volusia County on Tuesday by a local Democratic party worker which also addressed the timing question.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Politics/LocalGov/03AreaWEST01EPOL112404.htm

from the Daytona Beach News Journal
November 24, 2004

"DELAND -- The aftermath of the general election in Volusia County grew more tangled Tuesday, as a local voting rights advocate sued to throw out the results.

The suit, filed by DeLeon Springs resident Susan Pynchon, targets the race for supervisor of elections, alleging that former County Councilwoman Ann McFall's victory was based on "inadequate and incomplete information regarding election results."

While the suit focuses on the most prominent countywide race, it asks that all general election results in the county be set aside"

"The suit comes one day too late to meet a state law requiring that such complaints be filed within 10 days of an election's certification, but Vaughen says an exception should be made in part because of delays in getting records from the Volusia County Department of Elections."


While Volusia County went for Kerry (115,484 - 50.47%)over Bush (111,859 - 48.88%) by 3,625 votes (Volusia Elections Dept. #s, http://www.volusia.org/elections/110204/GEMS%20SOVC%20REPORT%20111504.pdf), it was by a far smaller % and by a lesser number of votes than Gore/Bush in 2000. Surprisingly (or not), in the US Senate race between Mel Martinez (R) and Betty Castor (D), Mel got 46.16% vs Castor's 51.% with 10,656 NO VOTES (vs 690 in the Presidential race) but the Volusia Elections Dept. only shows 4,238 in their 11/15/04 update. Factor in a "memory card failure forced officials to feed 13,244 ballots into a different voting machine in DeLand on Election Day" (News Journal 11/3/04) from an early voting site that voted 2 to 1 for Kerry and you begin to see why Volusia shouldn't be let so easily off the hook. Incompetence is a byword at the dept which will have a newly elected supervisor in January.



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gorbal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
31. If you missed the show
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 10:33 PM by gorbal
If you missed the Thom Hartman show today you can listen to the archives here-

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

The very last one features Bev:)

Also, keep heart, if we stay focused we may still be able to contest this election. Keep your eye popped for the "senate blaster" thread and keep it kicked.

:)
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
32. who set the law in florida on the high bar for criteria?
Plus when was it set so high?
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Bev's latest update
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 11:45 PM by Melissa G
just a few minutes ago I was reading an update from Bev Harris about the Florida scandal and CNN not reporting it. Accidentally? the article disappeared from my screen. I cannot find it on BBV's site. I cannot find the email that contained the link on DU. Has someone else seen it and could they provide a prominent link on DU. It deserves its own thread! Could someone please check this out?
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. geo might know
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
38. If fraud were proven before the Electoral College votes
wouldn't the Congress be forced to disqualify the State of Florida from participating? It would be too late for the State to change the way it chooses its Electors, according to David Boies, which must be done by no later than the day Congress sets aside as the official "Election Day." If that were to occur, a recount would be superfluous.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
39. Florida's painful Election Law
http://election.dos.state.fl.us/publications/pdf/electionLaws.pdf

See 102.168 Contest of Election

It seems it's 10 days "after midnight" on the the date that the last county certifies. If they certified on Sunday, November 14,is that from the 15th? Or midnight before the 14th? Anyway, the suit was filed Tuesday. That's not 11 days (one day too late). But...

I think as she says (and as it reads) the bar is too high. There was no reason to contest as there isn't enough proof to overturn the election. Also, no requested recounts available. Only within a teeeny margin.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
40. Writ of Mandamus ??
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 12:39 AM by pat_k
I’m not a lawyer so I may be way off base, but it seems to me that there are many ways to approach this. For example, what about application for a Writ of Mandamus?

From http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m079.htm (emphasis mine):

This writ was introduced to prevent disorders from a failure of justice; therefore it ought to be used upon all occasions where the law has established no specific remedy, and where in justice and good government there ought to be one. Mandamus will not lie where the law has given another specific remedy.


Here’s my shot at arguments that might be used to seek a writ that shifts the burden of proof to the state:

Part I: Gap in the current law and remedy required

(1) The law governing the contest of an election in the State of X fails to provide a remedy if the party contesting the election successfully establishes a reasonable doubt that the result is correct, but fails to prove that the results are incorrect.

Under current law, the party contesting the official results is called upon to prove the results to be incorrect. There is a presumption that the results are correct and the burden of proof is on the party contesting the results.

(2) Justice and the preservation of our government demand that we have confidence in our elections. If a party contesting an election establishes doubt that the results of an election are correct, steps must be taken to eliminate the doubt.

The power and legitimacy our government and its elected officials must rest on “the solid basis of THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE.” (Federalist 22) The aim of our election law is to ensure that our representatives obtain our consent in open, fair, and lawful elections that accurately measure our will.

If there is reasonable doubt that the results of an election correctly reflects the will of the people, that election must NOT be upheld as a measure of the peoples' consent. If there is doubt about the results of an election, it is likely that there will be corrosive doubt about the legitimacy of authority conferred by it if it is upheld despite the doubts.

(3) In the event that reasonable doubts about an election are established, the burden must be on the state to comply with the actions deemed necessary to eliminate the doubt. Assuming the election is administered professionally and election processes are sufficiently transparent, it should be fairly easy to eliminate doubts.

Elections are imperfect measures of the people’s will. Human or machine error can be introduced by imperfect systems for recording or tabulating the votes. Voters may not be afforded an equal opportunity to exercise their right to vote due to failures in administration.

Legal proceedings that are intended to resolve a contest or remedy problems can result in error. There are four possible outcomes to any legal proceeding that demands evaluation of election results for the purpose of upholding or striking down those results:

Correct Decision: Strike down results that are incorrect.

Correct Decision: Uphold results that are correct.

Type 1 Error: Strike down results that are correct.

Type II Error: Uphold results that are incorrect.

To be in accord with our founding principle, the law must minimize Type II Errors (that is, the governing laws need to minimize the chances of upholding an incorrect result.) To achieve this, a "presumption of incorrect results" is required and the burden is therefore shifted to the state to prove the results to be correct.

Part II: There is reasonable doubt that the election results reported by the State of X reflect the will of the voters.

(1) The voting systems and practices employed by election officials in the conduct of this election are so clearly flawed that the results are wide open to corruption by systematic vote suppression, data manipulation, human and machine error, and consequently, willful fraud. The only certain result is that we can have NO confidence in how accurately they gauge the will of the electorate.

Evaluation of the nature of the problems discovered to date makes it clear that these problems have implications that reach far beyond this or that specific instance. We are learning that the software used to record and tabulate votes is seriously flawed, lacks basic internal audits and security protections, and produces results that are prone to undetectable corruption through error or deliberate tampering.

In addition to the nature of the problems associated with recording and tabulating the vote, there is evidence that voters were not afforded an equal opportunity to exercise their right to vote. Those in African American and poorer communities faced poll-tax lines (time is money) and other intolerable and discriminatory barriers to qualifying to vote, casting their vote, and having their votes counted.

(2) Given (1) any presumption of accurate results is invalid. The addition or subtraction of votes from an untrustworthy initial total is not a valid method to remove doubt that the results are an accurate reflection of the will of the electorate. With the reported results in doubt, discovery of isolated problems can do nothing but add to that doubt.

(3) The systems and processes implemented by the election officials in State X make it impossible to remove the doubt about the results with a standard recount as specified under current statute. Only a comprehensive audit has the potential to remove the doubt

Part III: Application for Writ of Mandamus

Having established doubt that the election results correctly reflect the will of the voters in the State of X, and

Having established that the current law fails to provide remedy in this circumstance,

Justice and good government demand that the State of X undertake and comply with any actions required to remove the doubt.

Given the nature of the problems, only a comprehensive audit has the potential to remove the doubt.

We seek this writ to call upon the State of X to subject its election to a comprehensive audit. The aim of the audit we seek is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt whether or not the systems used to record and tabulate votes, the allocation of resources, and the administrative processes employed in the conduct of this election resulted in 1) violations that render the election unlawful (discrimination, fraudulent votes); 2) correctable machine or human errors; 3) vulnerabilities that make undetectable tampering or corruption possible…. <<<some specification of acceptable investigating authority, timeframe for compliance, and scope, etc.>>>

If the state fails to provide the access and records required to conduct the required audit, or if the independent audit fails to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt that the results accurately reflect the will of the voters, then …. <<<some specification of further remedy to address the possible outcomes. For example, if it is proven that the processes made the election vulnerable to undetectable tampering or corruption, the results must be thrown out entirely. The only remedy in that case would be to hold a new election that eliminated the vulnerability.>>>>

----------------
Next Task

If this exercise has yielded something of value – i.e., to get some real legal minds thinking about feasibility, problems, etc -- the next task would be to draft an application for a writ that strikes down the results of the election if the election failed to ensure that all voters, regardless of gender, age, race, socio-economic state, partisan status. absentee status, military status… were afforded an equal opportunity to exercise their right to vote, which includes equal opportunity to qualify/register, cast their vote, and have the vote counted.

The gap in the law:
No remedy if discrimination is found, but the voters subjected to the discrimination cannot prove that the election result would be different if there had been no discrimination.

That is, the notion that when the results declare a winner by a large margin, discrimination and other problems are "outside the zone of litigation."

If you accept the notion that a large margin of victory puts the election "outside the zone of litigation," then you accept the notion that such a state is completely free to discriminate with no risk of consequence. This is an absurd position.

Writ to demand the election be struck down as unlawfully conducted and contrary to American values. It is then on the State of X to figure out what it needs to do to conduct a fair and open election.

No matter what the margin of victory, the results of a discriminatory election are unacceptable. We cannot continue to tolerate the intolerable. We cannot continue to tolerate the toleration of the intolerable.

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