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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 05:46 PM
Original message
Right Wing Extremists Affect Election?
I'm just putting these tidbits out there; make of them what you will. But I can't help but think that some sort of Rovian tactics were used on these people (I'll explain in a sec).

First: The Southern Poverty Law Center has an excellent article about various hate groups and ulta-conservative organizations in Southern politics here:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=487

Their Intelligence Report publication has a whole bunch of related stories, but note this especially:

-----

God's Own Spoilers
Can the nation's most extreme political party swing the presidential election?
By Bob Moser

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=489

"True, the Constitution Party is small, with only 340,000 registered voters nationwide, but that does make it the nation's biggest third party. Considering the dismal track record of American third parties, it's also one of the longest-lasting, having existed in one form or another since Wallace's wildly successful third-party effort in 1968 (see related interview, Crashing the Parties)."

-----

The Constitution Party's roots:

"In 1992 a coalition of independent state parties united to form the U.S. Taxpayers Party with the common goal of limiting the Federal Government to its constitutional boundaries and restoring civil government to the principles our country was founded upon."

http://www.constitutionparty.org/party_history.php

-----
Their nominee this year was Peroutka:

http://www.peroutka2004.com/

He received about 11,600 votes.

------

Here’s the thing, though. This whole movement comes from the Sovereign Citizens movement, which is basically Freemen, Terry Nichols, home-schoolers (yep, a lot of them), racists, “Christians,”---the really, really extreme right wing. They hang out in compounds in Idaho, for instance, coin their own money or barter, actually declare their own countries, etc.

-----

Here’s what the Anti-Defamation League has to say about them:

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/SCM.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=sov

“Origins: Circa 1970; fully developed by early 1980s

Ideology: Anti-government, some white supremacist elements

Outreach: Vigilante courts, seminars, shortwave radio, the Internet, "schools of common law"

Notable Episodes: 1996 Montana Freeman standoff; 1997 Republic of Texas standoff

Tactics "Paper terrorism," including frivolous lawsuits, frivolous liens, fictitious financial instruments, fictitious automobile-related documents, and misuse of genuine documents such as IRS forms; various frauds and scams

(snip)

The "sovereign citizen" movement is a loosely organized collection of groups and individuals who have adopted a right-wing anarchist ideology originating in the theories of a group called the Posse Comitatus in the 1970s. Its adherents believe that virtually all existing government in the United States is illegitimate and they seek to "restore" an idealized, minimalist government that never actually existed. To this end, sovereign citizens wage war against the government and other forms of authority using "paper terrorism" harassment and intimidation tactics, and occasionally resorting to violence.”

(some of you might especially note the use of “frivolous lawsuits”)

----

The Posse Comitatus saw the highest form of legitimate government as the county (that’s how it “comitatus” literally translates). Where have we seen much of the fraud or irregularities? On the county level. (just an aside). Their movement, as such, has morphed into the Sovereign Citizen Movement.

----

Here’s from an actual site of these people:

Go to this site to access it, since I don’t want to put their actual URL or link on this board (I’m being paranoid, I guess): http://sleazereport.com/wp/index.php?p=192

“We are going to exhaust the last possible avenue of PEACEFUL attempts at redress of grievances through the political process.

We are going to encourage GOOD PEOPLE to run for political office under "Third Party" labels. ...

(we) intend to teach people HOW to run for political offices, and HOW TO WIN.

It is really handy to have joined a party BEFORE you try to file as a candidate under that party label. We are recommending Libertarian, Constitution, American, Christian, or several others. If a viable third party candidate has already thrown his hat in the ring, and if he has a better chance of winning than you do, SUPPORT HIM. Don't run against him. He's already your pal. If there's anything third parties don't need- is more splintering.

And we are going to encourage good people to vote STRAIGHT TICKET.”

----

It was this last sentence that really, really caught my eye and made me wonder if these people weren’t being played somehow. Many people had their votes circumvented because they voted straight ticket Dems. The theory is that the straight vote was a signal to the computer (however it’s done, with a script or something, I guess) to count that vote for Bush. What if it wasn’t just a strait Dem ticket that this script applied to, but also the Constitution Party?

At any rate, they are urging their people to get on BoEs and I have to imagine they would’ve volunteered for various like-minded candidates. I must emphasize that on the face of it they HATE Bush (and the Dems). But if manipulated the right way, they could have turned into an important asset for the Repugs.

Note that SC strongholds exist in Ohio and Florida (yep).

And how did I start along this line of inquiry? Geo, Bozos, you’ll hate me. It was in researching James Horton, co-owner of CyberNET. The name was mentioned in an obscure lawsuit dealing with SC people, and I can’t state in any way that it is the same James Horton. But that’s the synaptic leap I took, for better or for worse.
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Just wanted to add these tidbits of info:
This is from the ADL site, above:

"Still others, including the Civil Rights Task Force and the Constitution Rangers, have created fictitious law enforcement agencies, complete with fake identification cards, badges and even raid jackets. People associated with the Civil Rights Task Force have advocated what they term "reverse intimidation": interrogating the spouses of law enforcement officers who have had dealings with members.

Even when jailed, sovereign citizens often continue their activities. They teach other prisoners their tactics; as a result, a number of non-extremist prisoners have engaged in such sovereign citizen stratagems as filing bogus liens. Convicted drug dealer and prisoner Kenneth E. Speight, for instance, filed more than $12 billion in liens against federal judges and prosecutors in Connecticut. According to federal officials, a fellow prisoner associated with the Montana Freemen taught Speight how to harass people with liens."

If these people go around impersonating law enforcement agencies and producing official-looking documents, it's not so far a stretch to think that they might have been behind the Warren County lockdown. Interesting to note, too, that they work in the prisons, no doubt with the Aryan Brotherhood types there.

Another little note: these groups use names with "Rangers" and "Pioneers" and there's a "Republic of Texas" movement. Ring any bells?
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. is it wrong
to kick my own thread? I think this could be important, and I'd like others' input.

Thanks!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I'll kick your thread for ya
:D

Very interesting material here.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for bringing this up. n/t
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. hmmm....
I guess no one finds this as interesting as I do?
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. Of course! Blackwell connection! Duh!
I should've reread some of the articles I've been clipping. Here's from the Free Press (Fitrakis is my hero, BTW):

"The day after his concession, Kerry drew 3,893 votes closer to Bush when a computerized voting machine “glitch” was discovered in an Ohio precinct. A machine in ward 1B in the predominantly Republican Gahanna, Ohio, recorded 4,258 votes for George W. Bush when only 638 people cast votes at the New Life Church polling site. Buried on page A6 of the Columbus Dispatch, the story also reported that the voting machine recorded 0 votes in a race between Franklin County Commissioners Arlene Shoemaker and Paula Brooks. Franklin County Board of Elections Director Matt Damschroder told the Dispatch that the voting machine glitches were “why the results on election night are unofficial.”

The right-wing New Life Church voting glitch is interesting. Free Press reporter Marley Greiner has been tracking Blackwell’s relationship with far right-wing religious forces like Biblical America and Christian dominionist groups that want to establish theocratic religious rule in America. Blackwell was campaigning around the state with the Reverend Rod Parsley as part of a “Silent No More” tour in support of amending the Ohio Constitution to outlaw gay marriage, on the ballot as Issue One. Many mainstream commentators claim it was the widely popular Issue One amendment campaign that brought out Bush voters in record numbers in rural Ohio. Gay marriage was already outlawed by state statute, and six of the seven Ohio Supreme Court justices are Republicans."

link: http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/983

another DU thread discussing Blackwell (in relation to Gahanna "glitch":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=83389#83528
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. U.S. Taxpayers Party
I'm pretty sure that's where Grover Norquist came from -- he led that at one point a number of years ago (early 1990s?).
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. And Peroutka got too many votes in some democratic Cuyahoga
precincts.

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jmhays37 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Right Wing Extremists Affect Election?"
I'm not nor have I ever been a member of the "sovereign citizen" movement or the "Christian Identity" movement. One of the purposes of my website, http://sleazereport.com/wp (JohnHays.net), is to expose the activities of the "sovereign citizen" movement and the "Christian Identity" movement in the Northwest United States, especially in Oregon.

By the way, the Constitution Party of Oregon is made up almost entirely of advocates of the "sovereign citizen" movement. Also, the Constitution Party of the US is controlled by advocates of the "sovereign citizen" movement.

Many of the subjects the Libertarian candidate, Badnarik, spoke about in various interviews were subjects near and dear to the hearts of "sovereign citizens". In fact, I believe Badnarik was and is more "sovereign citizen" than Libertarian. For more info about this, visit http://sleazereport.com/wp/index.php?p=546 .

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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hey, JMHays37
What do you think about their impact on the election, and my idea that they may have been tools toward the larger purpose of getting Bush reelected through nefarious means?

Hm, I don't believe I implied that you were part of the movement... I'll have to reread what I wrote... but I did link to some of your research (and hats off to you for doing it!).

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding there.
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I see where I was a little vague in how I attributed the site
Here's what I originally posted:

"Here’s from an actual site of these people:

Go to this site to access it, since I don’t want to put their actual URL or link on this board (I’m being paranoid, I guess): http://sleazereport.com/wp/index.php?p=192"

I guess I should have put it more like this:

"Go to http://sleazereport.com/wp/index.php?p=192 , a site that investigates this movement, to access a direct link to an actual Sovereign Citizens movement site. I don't want to put the direct link on this board..."

If I inadvertently made it seem as if sleasereport.com was *part* of the movement, I sincerely apologize. I never thought that myself, but saw it as a watchdog site.
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jmhays37 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. How was the election impacted
No problem. Sometimes people think my website glorifies the lunatic fanatics in the "sovereign citizen/Christian Identity" movement(s) instead of exposing them and ridiculing them.

Most of the adherents of the "sovereign citizen/Christian Identity" movement(s) decided to vote either for Badnarik or Peroutka or, believe it or not, Kerry. The "sovereign citizens" view Bush as being part of the Illuminati, the New World Order, the international Jewish banking cabal and a member of the Zionist Occupied Government in Washington DC.

I don't really think they had any impact on the election. Mainly because there are so few of them compared to the bulk of voters. Also, even though the adherents are united in their hatred of American society, most American citizens and all forms of American government, they have not united behind one particular voting bloc. In this particular aspect they are fragmented. This is probably why, in my opinion, the adherents split among Peroutka, Badnarik, and Kerry.
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jmhays37 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. How the election was impacted
I forgot to mention a couple of things. I don't view the lunatic adherents of the "sovereign citizen/Christian Identity" movement(s) as far right extremist. The adherents are so far off the political spectrum that they might as well be on another planet.

My definition of right wing extremists would encompass, for example, the followers of bizarre right wing fundamentalist preachers like Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson and other extremist interpreters of Christianity. I believe these far right wing extremists had an effect not only on the presidential election, but also on various measures in various states. One example of their influence is the passage of various state measures limiting marriage to only hetersosexual unions. Here in Oregon the far right extremeists managed to get a measure passed that enshrined their bigotry into the constitution. I voted against the measure but the far right extemists had a slick and dishonest campsign going that managed to scare many Oregon citizens into believing that if marriage wasn't a heterosexual monopoly, then Western Civilization as we know it would cease to exist.

So, yes, I think the far right extremists had an impact on the election.
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. the point I was trying to make about how they voted...
...was that they were being encouraged to vote a straight ticket, and, since it seems that many people reported that their Democrat straight ticket votes were being recorded as a Bush vote, that perhaps all straight ticket votes would be recorded the same way. It was pointed out in another thread that only 6 votes per precinct would need to flip for a Kerry victory in Ohio; maybe the straight ticket switch from essentially a just a handful of wackos (who are being urged to get involved with politics and to vote) across the country could have helped pad out the vote nationwide.

In Ohio, the Constitution Party/Peroutka received 11,614 votes in 2004 (according to pre-certified results, of course). Badnarik got 14,331, yet Cobb of the Green Party (which I think is at least a more recognizable party---I'd never even heard of the Constitution Party before this election), only got 24 votes. HUH? 24? No wonder the Greens are recounting. Their alliance with the Libertarians strikes me as something of an unholy one, but at least they're getting the recount at all.

Another way I was thinking that perhaps they might have been used as pawns was through the charter schools. If you read elsewhere on DU about Jeff Fisher's claims and about CyberNET, you'll see a bit more what I mean. (PM me if you want a link and are interested). But the SC, CI, Libs, and Consts. all seem to be behind the charter school/homeschooling thing, and I think there may be a connection to Fisher's fraud claims. Do you know anything about this aspect of their movement?

A couple of other ways they may have had an impact: I read that they often impersonate government agency types to intimidate people, and there was a lot of that sort of thing going on in Ohio, at least, before the election. And with their expertise at creating official looking documents... I could see some individual members being behind a lot of the voter intimidation or the "FBI" warning in Warren County.

And then there's the plan to infiltrate government up to the county level, which would, of course, include the Board of Elections. It's not who gets the votes but who counts the votes that determines the winner of an election. Such people might make good pawns.

I'm not trying to say that the SC/CI had an intention throw the race to Bush--I realize they hate him as much as or more than the "socialist" democrats. I'm trying to say that perhaps they were pawns in a larger game.

As I've started looking into the education angle, these more "socially acceptable" ultra-ultra conservative people are EVERYWHERE. They've got lots of money behind them... and they're definitely hooked up with the Libs if not actually Libs. And the SC/CIs have hooked up to the Libs, too. And SC/CI has an organization HQ in Akron... home of White Hat Management, which is a charter school management company whose founder just so happens to have been Ohio's single individual largest contributor to the GOP this year. And they're big with Blackwell, too.

BTW, in 2000, the Constitution Party only got 3823 votes in Ohio, but that was the year Buchanan won (26,724), so that may have drawn many of their votes away.

I'm kind of ranting and raving here, since most of these thoughts are only half-baked at this point, but I'm hoping to get more input and ideas. It sure seems like these people (and by "these" I mean SC/CI, Constitution Party, Falwell, Buchanan, some Libertarians (not all of them are LaRouchies, I guess) are really quite effectively shaping and molding society from under the radar.

I dunno... any further thoughts? I'd love to hear whatever comments you might have. PM me if you want links; I got 'em. Or if anybody wants to hear more, I'll keep going on this board. Just let me know.

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jmhays37 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. the point I was trying to make about how they voted..."
Edited on Tue Nov-30-04 03:52 AM by jmhays37
In Ohio I think you may be right. I was thinking about Oregon when I wrote those posts and in Oregon Kerry won by a large amount of votes.

<blockquote>
Michael Badnarik / Richard V. Campagna.......7,256 - 40%
George W. Bush / Dick Cheney...............866,300 - 47.19%
David Cobb / Patricia La Marche............5,303 - 29%
John F. Kerry / John Edwards...............942,646 - 51.35%
Michael Anthony Peroutka / Chuck Baldwin...5,253 - 29%
Write-in Votes.............................8,938 - 49%
Total......................................1,835,696
</blockquote>

In Ohio straight ticket voting could (more than likely) have played a part in perpetuating a possible fraud in the outcome of the election and for Cobb to only get 24 votes (I assume you're talking about the whole state) seems to me to indicate something fishy is going on. I find it extremely difficult to believe only 24 people voted for the Green Party.

The "sovereign citizens" love to impersonate cops, judges, preachers, agents of federal agencies, and they are always trying to infiltrate county government, some non-profits and organizations like the American Legion or VFW. I was once a member of both the American Legion and VFW in Oregon and I actually saw them try to become elected officials of two posts here in Oregon.

On the home schooling, charter school issues, I believe the "sovereign citizens" are using ultra-conservative Republicans to further home schooling and charter schools. The "sovereign citizens" have pushed for home schooling for about thirty years. They hate public schools. The "sovereign citizens" believe, and they are correct, they can teach their kids to hate America more easily, brainwash their kids with bizarre Christian Identity beliefs more easily, and not have to mix with those pesky non-Aryan, non-master race folks if they can isolate their kids by home schooling. I'm not saying everybody who home schools is an anti-government looney, just a lot of them.

I have more on this at one of my posts. http://sleazereport.com/wp/index.php?p=652

It seems the ultra-conservative Republicans have actually adopted a couple of the ideas of the "sovereign citizens".

Charter schools are really just another attempt to isolate the kids of the "sovereign citizens", albeit a compromise mostly.

The second to last paragraph in the preceding post hits the nail on the head.

<blockquote>
I'm kind of ranting and raving here, since most of these thoughts are only half-baked at this point, but I'm hoping to get more input and ideas. It sure seems like these people (and by "these" I mean SC/CI, Constitution Party, Falwell, Buchanan, some Libertarians (not all of them are LaRouchies, I guess) are really quite effectively shaping and molding society from under the radar
</blockquote>

Orcinus (David Neiwert) is a writer in Seattle, WA who runs the blog Orcinus. He has spent years studying militias, sovereign citizens, and Christian Identity adherents in the Northwest.

He has written a four part series of posts exploring how the lunatic ideas of the "sovereign citizen" movement and the "Christian Identity" movement have seeped into the ultra-conservative movement and from there into the conservative movement. Here's the link.
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_10_10_dneiwert_archive.html#109694976530359103

Part one of Orcinus' series is called "Part 1: The Morphing of the Conservative Movement". The following are the first three paragraphs of his series.

<blockquote>
When trying to make sense of the seemingly inextricable political morass into which we've descended, one of the real keys to understanding our situation is realizing that conservatism and the "conservative movement" are in fact two entirely different things.

Conservatism, like liberalism, is not a dogmatic philosophy, but rather a style of thought, an approach to politics or life in general. It stresses the status quo and traditional values, and is typified by a resistance to change. Likewise, liberalism is not relegated to a discrete "movement" but rather describes a general politics that comprises many disparate concerns.

The "conservative movement," however, is a decidedly dogmatic political movement that demands obeisance to its main tenets (and exiles those who dissent) and a distinctly defined agenda. Movement followers proudly announce their membership. (In contrast, there is no "liberal movement" worth speaking of -- just a hodgepodge of loosely associated interests.) Importantly enough, their raison d'etre has transformed from the extenuation of their "conservative" impulses into the Machiavellian acquisition of power, usually through any means necessary.
</blockquote>

On my blog there is also reference to influential, somewhat secret, white supremacist groups called Citizens' Councils that later morphed into the Councils of Conservative Citizens.
http://sleazereport.com/wp/index.php?p=175

The following is an excerpt from the post at the link above.

<blockquote>
'Uptown Klan,' remnant of racist history

By CAMERON McWHIRTER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 07/09/04

INDIANOLA, Miss. — Fifty years ago today, 14 white men gathered in a modest home in this drowsy Mississippi Delta town to launch a grass-roots movement.

Led by a 32-year-old farmer named Robert "Tut" Patterson, the men organized the first Citizens' Council, a group dedicated to stopping public school integration following the Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education decision.
Bill Johnson/Special

Arthur Marble is the first elected black mayor of Indianola, Miss. The Delta town was the birthplace 50 years ago of the Citizens' Council movement, dedicated to stopping public school integration.

A cartoon taken from a November 1955 issue of the official newspaper of the Citizens' Councils of America depicts the projected effects of the Brown v. Board of Education decision for public school integration and the role of the NAACP.

Modern-day offshoot takes up case for whites

As the Citizens' Council movement petered out, a handful of members met in Atlanta in 1985 to form a new organization to defend whites against what they saw as encroachment by minorities and immigrants.

The new group, the Council of Conservative Citizens, drew most of its membership from the rolls of the dying Citizens' Councils.

" outlived its usefulness," said Gordon Baum, an attorney and former autoworker who heads the new group. "It was apparent to some of us that it was going to sleep."

Today the CCC, based in St. Louis, claims about 15,000 members, though actual membership cannot be independently confirmed.

The CCC has had links with several high-profile Southern politicians, including Louisiana white supremacist David Duke. The council made headlines in the late 1990s when Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.) and then Rep. Bob Barr (R-Ga.) were criticized for attending CCC meetings.

Lott initially denied any knowledge of the group until he was confronted by a Washington Post reporter with a copy of the group's newsletter. According to the newsletter, Lott told group members in 1992 that they "stand for the right principles and the right philosophy." When pressed, Lott renounced the group.

Barr said he attended just one meeting in South Carolina but had no idea what the group advocated. Barr later condemned the group and its beliefs.

The CCC argues that whites have been disenfranchised by the federal government. The group publishes literature attacking gays and its official Web site posts stories about violent crime committed by blacks against whites. Other editorials bemoan the collapse of the apartheid regime in South Africa, Jewish lobbyists in Washington and President Bush's proposal to loosen immigration policy.
</blockquote>

I notice <blockquote>s don't seem to work, however, I think I'll keep the blockquotes in anyway.

__UPDATE__

The following from Steve Gilliard's News Blog illustrates a couple of points I was trying to make in my preceding paragraphs. The link is
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2004/11/bill-of-what-wingnuts-to-challenge.html


<blockquote>
Courts first to go in right-wing revolution

By George McEvoy

Palm Beach Post Columnist

Saturday, November 27, 2004

Every time the so-called Christian Right has tried to turn this country into a theocracy, those pesky federal courts have stymied things.

So now — according to the liberal Americans United for Separation of Church and State — the right-wingers have come up with a new scheme. All they plan to do is to strip the federal judges of their right to hear cases involving the separation of church and state.

Reportedly, such leaders as the Rev. Jerry Falwell and Republican Rep. John Hostettler of Indiana, flush with what they see as a successful right-wing revolution, believe they can make the federal courts virtually powerless.

Rep. Hostettler, addressing a special legislative briefing of the Christian Coalition last month in Washington, reportedly talked at length about a bill he plans to introduce. It would deny federal courts the right to hear cases challenging the Defense of Marriage Act, which bans same-sex marriage.

"Congress controls the federal judiciary," Rep. Hostettler was quoted as saying. "If Congress wants to, it can refer all cases to the state courts. Congress can say the federal courts have limited power to enforce their decision."

Apparently, the Hoosier congressman has not heard of the balance of power among the three arms of our government. He was quoted as telling the Christian Coalition members:

"When the courts make unconstitutional decisions, we should not enforce them. Federal courts have no army or navy... The court can opine, decide, talk about, sing, whatever it wants to do. We're not saying they can't do that. At the end of the day, we're saying the court can't enforce its opinions."

Another congressman, Alabama Republican Robert Aderholdt, was quoted as advocating court stripping as a means to protect state-sponsored Ten Commandment displays, such as the one erected by former Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore.

And then there was Sheila Cole, executive director of the Republican Study Committee, a group of ultra-conservative House members. She said federal judges who refuse to listen to Congress might well be impeached.

Others in attendance at the session called for more direct action to render the federal courts powerless. During a question-and-answer period, a member reportedly said that in such cases as the Ten Commandments display, people should form a human barrier, if neccessary, to prevent removal.
</blockquote>

Steve Gilliard then goes on to write about the above news article.

<blockquote>
When I say this isn't a fascist dictatorship, I mean that. But when you have Congressmen who no longer believe in the rule of law, you're taking a step on that road.

Democracy HAS to be defended. There are ALWAYS threats to our freedom, always have been. Some by the misguided, some by the rational and well-meaning.

Rep. Hostettler has not heard of the following: Marbury vs. Madison
</blockquote>

He's right. Having Congressmen who have become, essentially, idiot tools of those ultra-conservatives who want to do away with the constitution and turn this country into some sort of extremist theocracy indicate that many of the lunatic ideas of the "sovereign citizens" have made their way into many areas of the "conservative movement".
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kk897 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Fabulous post JMHays37!
Thanks so much for sharing all of that information with us. I will definitely be exploring those links.

I've mainly been looking at this from the election fraud angle, since that's "top of mind" for me right now, but one thing that especially jumped out at me from your post was this:

"Orcinus (David Neiwert) is a writer in Seattle, WA who runs the blog Orcinus. He has spent years studying militias, sovereign citizens, and Christian Identity adherents in the Northwest.

He has written a four part series of posts exploring how the lunatic ideas of the "sovereign citizen" movement and the "Christian Identity" movement have seeped into the ultra-conservative movement and from there into the conservative movement."

THIS IS WHY WE SHOULD BE SCREAMING OUR HEADS OFF ABOUT THESE PEOPLE!

I think most people, Democrats, Greens (yes, BTW, that was 24 votes statewide!), even your average Redumblican probably view them as such a small minority as to not have a great effect on our society and culture at large. But I've noticed that minority extremist groups tend to drag the majority of the culture in their direction if they gain enough power. We CANNOT let this happen in the case of the SC/CI/Const/MM, etc.. We just can't. Period.

This might be a good topic for general discussion or the general/political discussion forums, since it's a bit different than the fraud issue.

But it's interesting that you've confirmed a few of my suspicions about their possible hand in this election.

Again, can't thank you enough, and I'll be visiting those links soon (and yours, too, again).
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