Election laws in Florida and Ohio seem designed to hide fraud...

[Junkdrawer]

In Ohio, the laws seem to say that a recount can't be requested until Dec. 6th, and yet the deadline for any serious challenge is, wait for it,...Dec 6th....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=79268&mesg_id=79268&page=

In Florida, one has to prove that the results of a recount will result in the overturning of the election....before a recount is ordered.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2746037

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=80620&mesg_id=80620

Question:

When did these laws get put on the books?

[New Earth]

1. good question

they sound all too convenient.

[Junkdrawer]

3. An examination of WHEN these laws were put into place...

could tell us much about how far down the rabbit hole we really are --- Especially if the dates are compared with the rise of the Urosevich brothers.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

[glitch]

12. This article cannot be posted often enough. Thanks for the reminder. nt

[kdmorris]

2. I believe that law was in place in Florida

before 2000. That was the reason, I think, that Gore couldn't ask for a state-wide recount right after the election.

Perhaps someone more electorally sound can answer that question definitively, but that's what I remember being the reason. At the time, the media crucified him with it, but he was not able to just say "Recount everything", and that stupid assed law was the reason.

[glitch]

13. So many people chose to ignore that little fact, even to this day on DU nt

[truehawk]

4. You noticed that did you?

They have been stealing elections for a LONG, LONG time.

Evidently there is a book called Votescam that details the history of election fraud in this country. I have not read it yet, but I ran across it in a Google search.

[Junkdrawer]

9. See post #6

:hi:

[AnIndependentTexan]

5. Also who approved of the laws?

[Junkdrawer]

6. Try this sequence of events:

1.) Urosevich Bros. take over computerized vote tabulation.

2.) After learning where all the holes in local laws are, key states are selected and state legislators in these states are put into place.

3.) Election laws are further weakened by these state legislators.

[Junkdrawer]

7. Well, here's Ohio:

...

Throughout his 14-year career as state chairman, Mr. Bennett has established a reputation as one of the most effective party leaders in the nation. Upon his election in 1988, Ohio Republicans held no statewide executive offices, no Congressional or state legislative majorities, and only slim majorities in the Ohio Senate and on the Ohio Supreme Court. Working with Ohio`s business community and political leadership, Chairman Bennett set out to develop and implement a long-term plan to rebuild the Ohio Republican Party from the grassroots up.

Under Chairman Bennett’s leadership, Republicans began their upward climb in 1988 by gaining one additional seat in the Ohio Senate, retaining a majority on the Ohio Supreme Court and carrying Ohio for Vice President George H. W. Bush in the presidential election.

....

In the 1998 elections, Chairman Bennett led the Ohio Republican Party in a successful effort to retain GOP control of all constitutional statewide offices, including the election of Gov. Bob Taft. Ohioans also elected a second Republican U.S. Senator (George Voinovich), re-elected an incumbent to the Ohio Supreme Court and retained majorities in both the Ohio Senate and the Ohio House.

....

http://www.ohiogop.org/Accomplishments.aspx?Section=82

[Junkdrawer]

8. And Florida goes over in 1994...

....

Although both state parties are conservative, the Republicans have often had the advantage because of the national Democratic Party’s liberal image. After 1952 the state regularly voted for the Republican candidates in presidential elections except for the 1964 and 1976 elections. Both Democratic and Republican gubernatorial candidates have been elected since the 1960s, but in 1994 Florida’s state senate acquired a Republican majority for the first time since Reconstruction. Democratic Governor Lawton Chiles kept his seat in that election by the narrow margin of 51 percent of the vote versus his Republican opponent’s 49 percent. In 1998, however, Republican Jeb Bush was elected governor. He was reelected in 2002.

....

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557601_8/Florida.html

[KnowerOfLogic]

16. And is it any surprise that Jebby was installed as Fla. Gov.? Who

better to oversee the fraud and ensure the Bush/republican dynasty will forever be awarded Florida's 27+ electoral votes, making it very much harder for dems to ever win nationally. I don't think it was random chance that jeb decided to run for governor of Florida, as opposed to say, Wyoming. I mean, what was his connection to Florida before running for governor? I lived in the state for 20+ years, and i don't ever remember hearing anything about him.

[Patsy Stone]

17. I remember the day

I saw the Jeb for Governor HQ in So Fla. I thought, who the hell is that? Poor Lawton Chiles.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Looking over the timeline, that thought occured to me too...

:thumbsup:

[Eloriel]

10. Yes, and not only that

too many of the laws, state-by-state, basically enable fraud because the penalties aren't very stiff.

I've often said we need to do a state-by-state analysis of the voting and election laws, craft some model legislation and start lobbying for REAL reform. In fact, I started a thread for the purpose of brainstorming (I just kicked it too):

INVITATION: Let's Think Tank Election / Voting Reform
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=75403&mesg_id=75403

[berniew1]

11. Ohio Election Officials Obstructing Vote Count and Recount to run out time

Richard Hayes Phillips, Ph.D.

As of election night there were 155,428 provisional ballots still to be counted in Ohio. The eagerly awaited Ohio recount cannot possibly begin until after the votes are counted for the first time.

It is now Friday, November 26, 2004. Twenty-four days have passed since the presidential election. There are 88 counties in Ohio. To my knowledge, only 13 have examined their provisional ballots, counted them, and posted the results on their websites. The 13
counties are: Ashland, Brown, Butler, Clinton, Geauga, Greene, Hancock, Montgomery, Pickaway, Preble, Tuscarawas, Union, and Warren.

Altogether, there were 23,873 provisional ballots issued in these 13 counties, or 15.36% of the
statewide total. At this rate, it would take five months to count them all. This strikes me as a
deliberate stalling tactic to delay the Ohio recount until after the electoral college meets in December.

Here are the unofficial results in the 13 counties, with the sum totals compared with those reported on election night, so as to compute the net gains:


ELECTION RESULTS AFTER COUNTING PROVISIONAL BALLOTS

County Bush Kerry Others Ballots Not Cast Counted

Ashland 16,171 8,555 234 25,739 779
Brown 12,647 7,140 105 20,281 389
Butler 109,866 56,234 696 168,976 2,180
Clinton 12,938 5,417 58 18,674 261
Geauga 29,974 19,588 205 51,286 1,519
Greene 48,377 30,530 361 80,602 1,334
Hancock 25,101 10,343 140 35,926 342
Montgomery 138,361 142,977 1,205 287,635 5,092
Pickaway 14,160 8,578 123 23,132 271
Preble 13,733 7,274 119 21,559 433
Tuscarawas 23,825 18,854 260 43,760 821
Union 15,869 6,665 96 22,911 281
Warren 68,035 26,043 337 95,512 1,097

Bush Kerry Others

Total 529,057 60.04% 348,198 39.51% 3,939 0.45%
Earlier 516,376 60.18% 337,902 39.38% 3,753 0.44%
Net Gain 12,681 54.75% 10,296 44.45% 186 0.80%

John F. Kerry is actually gaining on George W. Bush as the counting of provisional ballots proceeds. In counties that Kerry lost by 20.8% on election night, he is losing by only 10.3% among the provisional ballots counted. In the 75 counties yet to be heard from, Kerry actually held a lead on election night:

ELECTION NIGHT RESULTS

Bush Kerry Others

88 counties 2,796,147 2,659,664 25,993
13 counted 516,376 337,902 3,753
75 uncounted 2,279,771 2,321,762 22,240


There are 208,696 uncounted ballots in these 75 counties, including 131,555 provisional ballots, and 77,141 regular ballots, mostly punch cards, which will have to be examined by hand during the recount. For a county by county breakdown of the uncounted votes,
read “JOHN KERRY CONCEDED TOO SOON” at

http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/uncounted.htm

Half of these uncounted votes, 104,748 (50.19%) are in 9 counties, 8 of which were won by John Kerry.

http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/summary.htm

There are also 14,799 ballots still uncounted in the other 13 counties, according to the table above. No wonder Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell is trying to slow down the counting of provisional ballots, and trying to delay the recount until after he certifies the winner. There needs to be a firestorm of protest to cause him to recuse himself, or a restraining order issued by the courts.

[indigo11153]

15. How can it be legal?

What Blackwell and the republicans are doing in Ohio is criminal. How do they get away with it?

[Junkdrawer]

14. Kick

:kick:

[dewaldd]

18. Missouri is worse...you can only ask for a recount if the margin is 1%

So if you just cheat enough so you win by a margin greater than 1%, you are home free.

[ParanoidPat]

19. Georgia Title XXI, Chapter 2 Section 324.....

....... One of my favorite laws governing electronic voting machines. :evilgrin:

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/GaCode/Title21.pdf

Warning! The link above is to a 379 page .pdf file that contains NO index of any kind and there are NO titles on any code sections!

21-2-324.
(a) Any person or organization owning, manufacturing, or selling, or being interested in the manufacture or sale of, any voting machine may request the Secretary of State to examine the machine. Any ten or more electors of this state may, at any time, request the Secretary of State to reexamine any voting machine previously examined and approved by
him or her. Before any such examination or reexamination, the person, persons, or organization requesting such examination or reexamination shall pay to the Secretary of State the reasonable expenses of such examination; provided, however, that in the case of a request by ten or more electors the examination fee shall be $250.00. The Secretary of
State may, at any time, in his or her discretion, reexamine any voting machine.

(b) The Secretary of State shall thereupon require such machine to be examined or reexamined by three examiners whom he or she shall appoint for the purpose, of whom one shall be an expert in patent law and the other two shall be experts in mechanics, and shall require of them a written report on such machine, attested by their signatures; and the Secretary of State shall examine the machine and shall make and file, together with the reports of the appointed examiners, his or her own report, attested by his or her signature and the seal of his or her office, stating whether, in his or her opinion and in consideration
of the reports of the examiners aforesaid, the kind of machine so examined can be safely and accurately used by electors at primaries and elections as provided in this chapter. If his or her report states that the machine can be so used, the machine shall be deemed approved;
and machines of its kind may be adopted for use at primaries and elections as provided in this chapter.

(c) No kind of voting machine not so approved shall be used at any primary or election and if, upon the reexamination of any voting machine previously approved, it shall appear that the machine so reexamined can no longer be safely or accurately used by electors at
primaries or elections as provided in this chapter because of any problem concerning its ability to accurately record or tabulate votes, the approval of the same shall immediately be revoked by the Secretary of State; and no such voting machine shall thereafter be purchased for use or be used in this state.

(d) At least ten days prior to any primary or election, including special primaries, special elections, and referendum elections, the election superintendent shall verify and certify in writing to the Secretary of State that all voting will occur on equipment certified by the Secretary of State.

(e) Any vendor who completes a sale of voting machines that have not been certified by the Secretary of State to a governmental body in this state shall be subject to a penalty of
$100,000.00, payable to the State of Georgia, plus reimbursement of all costs and expenses incurred by the governmental body in connection with the sale. The State Election Board shall have authority to impose such penalty upon a finding that such a sale has occurred.

(f) When a machine has been so approved, no improvement or change that does not impair its accuracy, efficiency, or capacity shall render necessary a reexamination or reapproval of the machine or of its kind.
(g) Neither the Secretary of State, nor any examiner appointed by him or her for the purpose prescribed by this Code section, nor any superintendent, nor the governing authority of any county or municipality or a member of such authority, nor any other person involved in the examination process shall have any pecuniary interest in any voting machine or in the manufacture or sale thereof.

(h) The compensation of each examiner appointed under this Code section shall be fixed and paid by the Secretary of State.

[WhoWantsToBeOccupied]

20. Georgia

Are you in GA, ParanoidPat? If so, could you please:

1) Explain why GA is one of the worst election irregularity states and the pioneer in e-voting theft while having a Democratic SoS who appears (from her website photos) to be popular among Democrats? Is she a wolf in sheep's clothing... or just a naive sheep?

2) Share your speculation on whether Andrew Veal took his own life? I think it's really strange that an extremely well-informed, deeply caring, perpetually cheerful guy beloved by all who knew him, engaged to marry who "happened" to have run a huge University of Georgia survey group for six years disappeared on Election Day and took his own life under such odd circumstances. It's, of course, possible. But I've had nightmares about his apparent suicide. I very much want to believe that he took his own life as a symbolic act of frustration, but I can't stop thinking about how convenient his death was, given that he has had a backseat pass to "Ground Zero" of e-voting theft for the past six years (esp. 2002). Also, again completely speculating, I can't stop thinking about what a convenient warning to pollsters (esp. exit pollsters) Veal's well-publicized Election Day death served as. My suspicions are probably wrong. I really hope you know some facts that can help me sleep better at night. I'm starting to see conspiracies everywhere these days.

[ParanoidPat]

21. Sorry, I'm currently living in California.......

.......and am unfamiliar with the local Georgia political scene. I just happen to have read the election laws for all 50 states and that particular section of the Georgia code is in a class all by itself. :)

You might ask Eloriel, she probably knows more about Georgia elections than most Georgia elections officials. In fact, she probably knows more about US elections in general than most people on the planet.

[bj2110]

22. Thought I'd give my thread a link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x74810