My response from Barney Frank RE: Election Fraud

[Sydnie]

I wrote to Barney Frank shortly after the first info from Ohio hit DU. I was very insistent that he begin investigations into Ohio, Florida, NH and other questionable states based on the Ohio info and the exit polls issues. Here is his reply, dated 11/22:

<quote>

Dear ________,

I agreed with you that there were irregularities in the Ohio election. I have spoken on a couple of occasions with a good friend of mine who was working in Columbus for two weeks, and he is convinced that there was a great deal of inappropriate and illegal actions. The problem is that we have no investigative body before which we can press these claims. The authorities in Ohio are Republicans, and with the White House controlling the Justice Department and with the Republican conservatives in control of both Houses of Congress, all we can do is to complain. So while I agree that this is something that we should look into, it is not easy to figure out a way to do that. I am working with other Democrats to try to do the best that we can, but the lack of any legal approach that we can take may well frustrate our efforts, as unfortunate as that is. In other words, it is not a lack of concern that may put and end to our efforts to fight this, but the unavailability of any place in which we can make the fight.

Barney

</quote>

So, they (the Dems in Washington) see the issues and support our claims but it seems that there is no place to make the case where we will not be laughed out of the room. The only thing left is for us to take it to the streets and get some public support in the fight. We have to want it bad enough to be willing to stake our lives on it, not unlike what is happening in the Ukraine. We have to want it bad enough to seek support from other nations as well. If we don't do it now, we can kiss all our hopes of leaving a better world to our kids goodbye. We will be leaving them to a one party, big brother knows best world.

I don't know about you, but that is unacceptable to me. The fascists have to go!

[NVMojo]

1. I wrote the same thing here when someone was pounding on Kerry

for not doing something. With the Repuke mob controlling nearly everything, who do we go to with election crimes or high crimes of treason?

[ooglymoogly]

30. the way i see it there is a powerful tool we have

but all of us have to really pay attention and make sure all our friends are helping and starve the beast. here is the link where we can all find out who is supporting these bstrds and who is supporting us http://www.followyourmoney.org get the list and make plenty of copies and give them to everyone you know imo we must do this in conjunction with demonstrating and telling everyone we know. the ukrains have been demonstrating for seven days in the snow and rain with nothing but barrels used for heat. have we grown so fat and complacent that we can't do this to protect this fragile democracy for our childre. if there was some way we could comunicate with the ukrains. they have the world presses' ear and let them know the same thing happened here. do any of you du ers
have friends in the ukrain or any addresses we can all email? any press contacts. it might help if we all sent letters to the ukrainian press. links anybody

[Eloriel]

54. With the Repug mod controlling everything, it's

all the more important to fight. We MUST fight. The alternative, not even trying, ensures our defeat.

I don't understand why people don't get that. It's the DEFEATISM that will kill us.

And it sure is a drag on those of us who are doing our small little parts to make a fucking difference to see people advocate rolling up into a ball, pretending to be already dead.

And that includes Barney Frank, for whom I used to have a lot of respect.

[jdj]

73. it's kind of refreshing that Frank has the balls to tell the truth.

that's the least they should be doing.

It's depressing, but at least it would show their heads aren't up their asses.

Frank should really figure something out. With this anti-gay crusade going on, his seat will go asap.

[YellowDoginthehouse]

2. Hear, hear!

Unacceptable in a democracy, you're right.

[ooglymoogly]

37. what about only needing one senator and one congressmen

to start an investigation? we've got the congressmen what about a senator? barney frank is a senator. i know people in calif are camping on barbara boxers office door. how can we further that and make sure we have a senator to stand and call for an investigation? kerry is of course a senator do we all need to email him?

[ClassWarrior]

61. Barney Frank's a Congressman - lots of DUers are emailing Russ...

...Feingold, as well as other likely Senators, via the Senate Blaster:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=79018

See the thread for other suggestions of sympathetic Senators.

NGU.

[Ducks In A Row]

3. when in the course of human events, and all that.

the rethugs are in danger of getting themselves overthrown.

you can't just denied people legal remedies and not have consequences.

[ooglymoogly]

41. we all need to read this again

thanks for the post

[IAMREALITY]

4. Wow, Great Post!

Great post Sydnie! It is frustrating a bit to read, but is the reality of it I guess.

Luckily for them they got the DU CREW kickin ass and not lettin this die. OUR VOICES WILL BE HEARD!

[Straight Shooter]

5. I suggest we holler louder and longer than the Repubs, then

I appreciate Senator Frank's advice, but there are other ways to achieve our ends if the Repubs thwart our means.

We just have to think a little harder about how to accomplish our goals. To me, the most important thing, besides the effort of "the people," is to get some big name Democrats on board. And if they don't stick their neck out, make their lives miserable by constant writing and telephone calls.

[mirandapriestly]

9. There needs to be a great deal of public outrage

I don't know how that is accomplished. I am going nuts!

[blm]

6. And that's the most vexing thing of all, WE have no investigative body

because they are in control at every level. Completely unAmerican. This is a fight we have to make in the streets.

[morningglory]

52. It seems to be working in the Ukraine. Let's go!! n/t

[whalerider55]

7. hmmm

i was reamed as a doomsayer a couple days ago...

sounds like 17,000 Kerry lawyers would have known there was no legal venue to press for an action by now...

I'm disappointed by Barney- especially since he wanted Kerry's seat...

this is a battle for enfranchisement... a constitutional issue...

it seems that whether the courts are republican or not, you still use the avenues that do exist to make your case... while cultivating other avenues.

shit. such unbelieveable cowardice. in 2000, it was sheer out-strategizing. In 2002, it was foolish failure to learn from 2000. In 2004, it was staggering incompetence and a lack of imagination. How could we have been so unprepared? To wait until after the election to prove fraud, and then discover there is no legal recourse to challenge it? And Barney, the smartest person in COngress is parroting this crap?

And they expect me to stick around until 2006?
at this point, the rationale for supporting a third party isn't the repugs, it feels like its the dems.
sheesh..

whalerider55

[whalerider55]

13. it occurs to me that perhaps...

i was a bit mild in expressing my disgust for this whole thing.

i recognize we were screwed. i guess i expected a little more than a whisper of a december surprise and some shrugged shoulders, better luck next time.

even barney realizes that if we can't stop it this time, next time is purely academic

sheesh. double sheesh.

whalerider55

[Sydnie]

27. Don't be disappointed in Barney

this is a dialog that is just beginning. What you are reading is just what many here have been expressing - frustration, depressions and disbelief in our situation. This is the first of many dialogs we will have I am sure. With encouragement from us (the people) he will continue to be a voice for us and if we all work together we just might be able to brainstorm some way around this thing. Always remember, BFEE and their ilk are everywhere in Washington. Admitting that he shares our feelings and questions and is asking questions of those on the ground as well as this fellow Reps is more than I have seen from others in his position.

If we keep the pressure on them, the ones that are there to be our voice and have more clout than we do at this point and support them in their efforts, we might just get somewhere.

Where ARE the people demanding transparency? Not out in the streets making our displeasure known. Not demanding that we get answers in a way that can't be denied.

We need to learn the lesson from Kerry himself. We must be visible, determined and patient. We are not going to change things in a day, a week or a month. We must do all the things that have been suggested by his fight in the 60's. We must band together and present our case to the public (and maybe it's the public of the world where our best support is right now) with facts and with conviction that this is the most important thing we have ever done or will ever do in our lifetimes.

We must be willing to be that fated student at Kent State to effect change. We must be willing not to accept the status quo nor go along to get along anymore.

The biggest problem I see is, we are in an economic box. We are tied to lives that involve responsibilities (children, homes with bills, cars, retirement funds, etc.) that have to be weighed against what we will lose if we remain silent. What we will lose is a way of life for our children and their children is we don't "bet the farm" and work our asses off now.

We must come together and share the burden of saving our nation and we must do it soon.

So, allow Barney the time to grieve as well, then tell him to get off his ass and get moving because we depend on his voice bringing others to our table too.

[bullimiami]

8. Im sorry but when injustice rules the legal system

you have to go extra-legal and take it to the streets.

and I agree it was a total failure on the part of kerry and the democrats to not prepare for just this possibility. they had evidence of it in 2000 and 02. Rove kicked their asses again.

Load of crapola.

[whalerider55]

18. i agree

take it to the streets.

but i still think you have to take it to the courts because that is one of the remedies we have a constitutional right to, and it will keep the issue alive in the eyes of the republic.

someone wrote iin another thread about October 15 1969- Moratorium Day... it was one of the most powerful days i recall...

another thread posted the idea of wearing a black ribbon until this all gets put right...

i liked it, nadia...

whalerider55

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Barney Frank just gave us our marching orders

Civil Disobedience and any legal means are now authorized.

We are them leaders

Now who wants to talk about marching?

I know one thing that may be effective, (will be effective)

Take this letter, print it, make sure it is crumpled up and leave it at public places, so people can pick it up and ahem read it... human nature being what it is...

Oh and start wearing something that will identify all of us at all times... I sugest a neckerchief, or just a piece of blue clothing at all times...

[sportndandy]

11. We Need A Leader

The Ukrainian candidate stood up when the results came in - Kerry sat down. I would rally for Kerry, but it is hard to be taken seriously when most people perceive that our leader has quit on us.

[bullimiami]

15. sportndandy i have been saying just this since nov 3.

we are ready but we need a leader, we need kerry to be that leader.

it is so frustrating. there is a time to play by the rules alone and a time to make some new rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. No you are missing it

YOU ARE the leader... I am the leader... they just told us what the skinny is

YOU ARE THAT LEADER

LEAD!

Oh and nobody said it was gonna be easy

Here is the first thign I want you to do... print the letter, and a copy of the US Declaration... in the same page. Crumple it good... or fold it in multiple ways. Take it to a busy bus stop and ahem abandon it... human curiousity will make people take it and read it... some will even make the connection...

Oh and you think this is new? It is called leaphleting and the Founding Fathers engaged in in for ten yeas before 1776

[mod mom]

71. Rev Jackson

People either love him or hate him but, when civil rights are violated, when voters were not treated equally under the law, when blatant Af Am supression occurs-who better to call Jesse Jackson. We want our voices heard? Our voices will be heard.

[Ardee]

12. But something is being done

The answer Frank gave to you is one from inside the system. meanwhile, out here in realworldland both the Cobb and Nader camps have attempted to investigate the machinations in Ohio and New Hampshire, while ,last I heard, Bev Harris and company were hip deep in Florida's doo-doo.

Now, if all the fascists will raise their hands Ill be right around to escort you from the country....

[anamandujano]

14. The reason the repukes control everything

is because of the previous fraudulent elections with which they seized congress.

[bullimiami]

19. anamandujano exactly!

My belief is that with fair elections and the law being upheld the liberals would have control of all 3 houses of government now. we would have never lost the senate for sure and gore would have just won his 2nd term.

[John Q. Citizen]

16. That is so cool of Franks to say it like it is.

People have grown used to "someone in power" being able to watch out for their interests.

Now we are truly the only ones left who can stand up for our interests.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Yep he just gave us our marching orders

and here they are....

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
Presented by the Indiana University School of Law—Bloomington

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The signers of the Declaration represented the new states as follows:

New Hampshire
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts
John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

For additional information about the Declaration of Independence, see these sites:

National Archives and Records Administration: Declaration of Independence
Library of Congress: About the Declaration of Independence

[troubleinwinter]

17. Yah, well, at the very LEAST....

Franks and the other elected Demos can start SCREAMING IT FROM THE ROOF TOPS!!! JeezuzH!!! "It's not easy to figure out a way..."

Start making some NOISE, Franks! Act like you care! Help SUPPORT US out here!

We talk about taking it to the streets. It would help us if the folks in DC that we voted into their cushy offices would open their fuckin traps and dissent against the monstrosity!

[merh]

21. Please write him back and tell him that this is not acceptable.

They need to pursue ever legal avenue they can, file every lawsuit imaginable, debate the issues in the house and on the floor, ride the Justice Department until they are blue in the face.

To say they can't think of anything to do is outrageous. We sent them to congress to represent us, damn it, they should be representing us.

(sorry for typo, I do that when I an emotional)

[IndyPriest]

34. NOT ACCEPTABLE!!

How many exclamation points can I use? I suppose I should add I don't know how the Dems in congress are feeling at the moment: depressed? Boxed in? Shut out? Probably lots of things. And I don't doubt they are busy with a thousand other things besides this issue. BUT they have GOT to get this through their pointy little heads: They CANNOT play nice with these bastards. The future of the country is at stake. We NEED an opposition party. If the Dems are going to surrender to this, what the hell good is it to have a two party system? I will write Franks. And I'm also going to write Levin and Stabenow. This IS outrageous!

[tinfoil_beret]

23. Cut through the red tape!

Mr. Frank wrote, "So while I agree that this is something that we should look into, it is not easy to figure out a way to do that. I am working with other Democrats to try to do the best that we can, but the lack of any legal approach that we can take may well frustrate our efforts, as unfortunate as that is."

A legal approaqch? Check out http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=81249&mesg_id=86113&page=

Though conservatives control both Houses of Congress, we still have the Constitution. Since you have a supportive response from Mr. Frank, perhaps you can bring this resolution to his attention.

I have already started writing Democratic senators, but constituents get their attention first. Write your representives, and give them a solution!

[Sydnie]

40. Done, with your blessing!

I sent him the info from your thread. Lets see what he has to say about that!

[pauldp]

24. This is why we must take to the streets now!

The Dems cannot do this. They cannot win so they gave up. Nevermind the credibility they would lend to the fight if they came out and explained to the people all the evidence we have:

-The fact that the Republicans killed the paper trail. (This alone should have been made a HUGE issue when it happened)

-The studies from reputable institutions pointing to massive fraud.

-The hard evidence collected by BBV in Florida.

Have they screamed bloody murder about any of this? No.

If they could at least break the cone of media silence we could do the rest ourselves. Goddammit they are pissing me off! It is sobering to realize that in the fight of our time, we are faced with vast numbers of cowards as well as criminals.

Both Major Political Parties have failed us.
We must march and uncover the truth for the people.

[mod mom]

74. Join us in OHIO 12/4

We need to create a HUGE presence and DEMAND a full investigation. If we do nothing we will create permanent apathy in those disenfranchised. Fool me once...WE MUST GET OUT ON THE STREETS!
Join us in Columbus Ohio for the FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY RALLY on Sat 12/4. Reverend Jesse Jackson and Greg Palast will be speaking as well as the progressive group leaders CONTESTING THE ELECTION! We have to show the Ukrainians that we have NOT lost our fighting spirit!

[troubleinwinter]

25. Pfffttt...

While I appreciate Franks's candor ("all we can do is to complain"), if that is the outlook of Democratic elected officials, they can forget ever getting another dime from me.

What, they think they got a job at 7-11? Get out there and fight and scream and agitate for the preservation of DEMOCRACY, ya chickens! We elected them for a reason. If we wanted somebody in office who would just stand around and shrug when our democracy is threatened, we needn't have bothered to elect these congressmen and senators, we could have just hired the kid from the local copy-shop.

WHY do we call them "leaders"???

I can understand that there may be no legal recourse, but I do NOT understand why they hide in their leather-upholstered offices, rather than leading street marches.

[glitch]

26. This is wussie. WUSSIE. Shame on Franks, and every other wuss

in Congress. We don't PAY them to be WUSSIES.
Lack of any legal approach?? Unavailability of any place to make the fight??? How about investigate and indict? So you don't have the executive branch judicial systems, what about the states? Not every state's Attorney General is corrupted, and states are where the voting process is legislated.

Make the alliances and just do it you &$^&@*#ING @$^#*&!ERS!!

Or how about blowing the whistle to legitimate media, like the BBC? Greg Palast would love some whistleblowers from Congress.

&$^&@*#ING Weimar Republic. &$^&@*#ING Vichy Dems. &$^&@*#ING Neville Chamberlain.

Hum. Maybe I should go get something to eat. :hi:

[proudtobeadem]

28. kick

[pauldp]

29. Yes kick this one. n/t

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

31. The dems can still press a lawsuit over the election

Frank talks about "no investigative body" to refer the matter to, but it goes without saying that the state of OH will not investigate. The dems have to do their own research and then kerry can sue the state for their electoral fraud.

[Bread and Circus]

32. Hey Barney, how about the fucking court of Public Opinion?!?

If the fucking wimpy Dems don't get on TV and talk
about this nothing is going to happen. Sitting on
hands is not acceptable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. The teevee will not carry their words

there is a total embargo....

Hence WE are the media

[Bread and Circus]

50. If Kerry, Edwards were to holler, they'd get on TV

Here's a list of people I wish would speak out, at least
for voting fairness (which is patent to anyone does not exist).

Al Gore
Bill Clinton
Hillary Clinton
Wes Clark
Barak Obama
John Kerry
Howard Dean
John Edwards

[JWP]

66. No, they wouldn't

Get YOUR own butt out there and demonstrate your anger ... in front of media newsrooms, in front of Congressional offices and storm Washington DC.

The power is in the hands of the democracy now. What Franks is telling you is that they were asleep at the switch too long and the train is now racing downhill out of control.

It will take masses like in Ukraine to stop this train.

[Sydnie]

67. I tend to agree with you

It is up to US to make enough noise to get the attention of those on the fringe that think something is wrong but don't have the time or inclination to investigate on their own. We need to make it so uncomfortable for things to be "business as usual" so we can mobilize those that aren't fully vested in the fight too.

We have to be willing to leave our own personal comfort zones to effect a change. That means sacrifice just like what is happening in the Ukraine. We need to make our voices heard and not be swept under the carpet again.

We MUST!

[newyawker99]

69. Hi JWP!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Liberty Belle]

33. Tell Barney Frank & Dem leaders to hold a press conference

They should ask all Democrats and members of other parties who believe voting should not be rigged to take to the streets in protest. The leaders should name a specific date and time for simultaneous demonstrations in front of the Capitol in Washington and in Capitols of all 50 states. Invite the big progressives groups like Moveon.org and Democracy for America (Dean's group) to attend the conference, too. They could send out word over the Internet grapevine to mobilize busloads of protestors to DEMAND that Congress and the Courts take action. As long as the GOP weasels can hide in obscurity, they will do nothing. The Dems should also announce plans to send a flyer to EVERY VOTER OF EVERY PARTY informing them how the GOP thinks rigging elections is just fine--with details to back up the assertion.

[Dr Fate]

36. They are afraid of pissing off Judy Woodruff & Wolf Blitzer.

Forget it- they wil NEVER do that.

Democrats in power care more about what Judy Woodruff says than what you and I say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. no, not quite

ANTHRAX

[Dr Fate]

49. Whatever. That would be obvious after a while...

...if DEMS kept on dying from antrax.

And even if true, then they are more usless than I thought. That means they are frightened and cannot even fight for themselves, much less me.

They "forgot" how to fight, or they dont give a shit.

Take your pick.

[Dr Fate]

35. BULLSHIT!!!!!! He could go on TV and talk about it TOMORROW.

He could DEMAND that Republicans "are hiding somthing, unless they support an investigation"

He could say "with elections so close, we have to INVESTIGATE and REFORM these irregularities NOW. WHY does Bush & the Republicans OPPOSE fair elections by not wanting to look into this? WHAT are they hiding???"

He could ask the Republican guest point blank- "Why are you opposed to an investigation? Why is Bush opposed to looking inot this? What are you hiding?"

This is EXACTLY what Republicans would say.

When the "journalist" objects and says "nothing to see here"- say "Werent you the ones who told us Saddam had WMDs and werent you the ones who repeated the Swift boat lies as facts?? Why should we take your word for it?"

But Democrats are too scared that whores in clown make up on TV will call them "conspiracy nuts"

BULLSHIT.

He is not speaking out beacuse he is SCARED. Plain & simple.

[troubleinwinter]

45. YESSSSS

I am out of the mood to vote for any demo incumbent that will not stand up NOW.

They better get prepared.

Is he (and his other demo pals) scared or lazy? I don't care which, really. They are OUT unless they start speaking up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Not to ask the obvious question, but who wil you vote in?

If you do not vote, the repug will get it, if you vote for somebody else, the repuke will get it....

Now it is time WE the people realize this is in our hands, historically, the American Revolution being the exception, Politicos get behind us the people... so don't expect THEM to lead... they won't... and there are many good reasons, including the Anthrax attacks

[troubleinwinter]

48. I will certainly vote! (NEVER said I wouldn't)

But if the people we have there now are just going to roll over, screw em. I will support someone else, work my butt off for a dem who will AT LEAST have the guts to speak out.

I do not have to vote for an incumbent who just sits & twiddles thumbs.

I owe no loyalty to someone who shows me none.

Lemme see Boxer and Pelosi and Feinstein start SPEAKING OUT LOUDLY against this mess.

"Leaders"? Show me!

[Dr Fate]

51. I'll half-heartedly vote for Eunuch DEMS- but ZERO time & money.

...and I've given plenty of time & money to these eunuchs.

NO MORE.

I'm not giving money or volunteer time to people who wont listen to me or fight for me.

If they need money or volunteer time, they can ask Judy fucking Woodruff or "swing voters" for it-since that is all they seem to care about.

[elizm]

75. Absolutely!

The Dems had their base as energized as it possibly could be (thanks to Dean)..and they had the support of the majority of the electorate...and surely the support of the rest of the WORLD. If they sit on their chicken butts and sit this one out, we would have nothing left to lose...WHY NOT vote for a 3rd party candidate next time?? At least we could begin to have some hope. As it is now, the Democrats are hopeless!!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. You made the correct diagnosis, but the wrong diseaase

ANTRHAX

Now he has given us our marching orders

We are the media....

Spread this thread, and godamit don't expect them to lead, it is NOW up to us.

If you EVER wondered how it felt to be at the cusp of a revolution, now you do

[peacetalksforall]

38. This means America the great democratic republic is lost and he

should go home. Why perpetuate a fraud of a country? Kerry and Edwards and Kucinich should all go home.

Aren't there are state, then district courts to start in?

Do we want to go down as the people who didn't try?

[troubleinwinter]

60. Well, according to what BF says, they might as well all go home.

Since there doesn't seem to be one willing to SPEAK OUT.

[aquart]

39. So. There is no law. We are without means of redress.

What a dangerous situation.

[Gman]

42. Why do people still not understand that there was a coup in 2000

the government of the United States of America has been overthrown. Four fucking years ago. DUHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Wake the fuck up, people. Isn't four years long enough to get it?? What the hell do you expect from a revolutionary government? Say, "duh, ok... we'll have fair elections. Oh, sure!"

We have no government. When are people going to wake the fuck up??

[Middle Finger Bush]

53. BF is my rep

he's always a straight shooter... if he says things are this desperate, they really must be.

Please be patient and respectful if you correspond with him. Thanks.

[EndElectoral]

55. Barney should get a Senator to go with the black Caucus this time.

[Samantha]

56. The State of Ohio has violated the Constitution

It's Slate of Electors should be rejected by the Electoral College when it votes.

That's the Constitutional remedy; Democrats need to adhere to it.

Another way to combat this is to leak information to the foreign press. Attach to it a paraphrase of Bush*s own words: "the world is watching you." Start with The Mirror.

[rebelskypirate]

59. The sad FACTS....how are we gonna get it done?

Been following these threads....a few thoughts

Each state decides the manner of elector selection. It is not a requirement to even select them by popular vote(at one time, some state legislatures picked them, as US Senators were once picked)

Of course, all states DO give the electors to the winner of the popular vote(NE/ME exception. split)But in the end, the final ruling on what electors are send to the Electoral College is clearly decided by that state legislature, NOT the courts.

Article II, Section 2, Clause 2: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct"

12th Amendment: "The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; -- the President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted; -- The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President"

So once Ohio's electors forward their votes, the Senate opens the votes and there are 20 votes for Bush, one or two or 50 Senators may object.....(only 44 Democrats + Jeffords now)but in the end, Bush will have 286 EVs....and be President(again)...I do not see anything about the Senate/House approving them, and even if that is so, both houses are solidly Republican now....as they are the NEW Congress(same as the old boss, LOL)If somehow the electors are blocked(fillibuster?)....then the House votes Bush due the Republicans controlling more state House Delegations, (28 I think) and the Senate votes Cheney.......same result as the EV count...

So, with a Republican Gov and House/Senate in Ohio, and SCOTUS clearly on the side of Bush.....how are we gonna stop this? Protests and posts here certainly help rally the faithful.....but is that gonna get it done?

I guess the only way is to either overcome the 130k vote lead Bush has(not looking good), or prove MASSIVE fraud, but if those Ohio electors vote Bushx20...it I feel is ALL over....sorry to not have more cheery news, but thats what the Constitution says, and short of a Constitutional Amendment, its the Supreme Law of the Land....

Also, I often hear the words "Constitutional Crisis" if the House were to select the President, and the Senate the VP....but since they are doing exactly what the 12th Amendment says, how is that a crisis?

Anybody got an answer to these facts, sucky as they may be? I am listening, and thanks for the kind welcome from so many to a newbie!

[lawladyprof]

57. I have pounding away on Equal Protection lawsuit

brought by disenfranchised Ohio voters. See Equal Protection thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x79652

Also distribution of Ohio machines by race

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x84787#84998

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

58. Absolutely - Kerry can sue right now

The state of OH cheated him of votes and he can sue in a civil court.

[lawladyprof]

62. No, not Kerry. Disenfranchised voters--cheated of their rt to vote-eom

[tngledwebb]

63. Well, if there is no legal recourse

we've had it. If this is a real reply from Franks, that is.

[Sydnie]

64. It is real - hard copy through USPS not email

I received this hard copy reply from his office on Saturday. I didn't have time to post it until last night though.

I have since written to him again and requested that he inform me of when he will be in his local office so that we might meet in person as well.

Barney is a straight from the hip kind of leader. If there is anything that we can present as a viable path, he will step up to the plate. He is secure in his position here in MA and has been through the "fire" before and survived. He is one tough old bird!

I realize that you don't know me, thus your question of it's authenticity. I assure you that I have the hard copy to back up this post should I ever need to produce it in person.

[tngledwebb]

65. OK, but if real and he's right

we are still in big trouble.

Or he may be wrong, or spinning for some reason...

[truehawk]

68. 2 things to remember

1. We WON.

There REALLY IS a DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY and a minority of LOUD MOUTHED BULLIES.

2. There is a press lockdown because if the general pulbic realized that the election was stolen and there is NO RECOURSE, that might unplant the couch potato.

[Hobbes199]

70. S'fucked up.

We need this country back.

[googly]

72. My guess is there are reasons we are not aware of why the dem

leadership is not pressing this issue. There simply can't
be any other logical explanation. People like Barney and
others in congress just are not the type to turn the other cheek.

What could be the reasons? Your guess is as good as mine. But I
am getting more convinced by the day that there are reasons why
our side is not pressing for investigations. I am willing to cut
them some slack.