Anyone else having a hard time with this Madsen stuff?

[trumad]

Yeah...I'm an old DU codger who pretty much has seen it all here on DU for the last 3 plus years......AND that's why I've loved DU. I credit DU with pushing items that most thought were tinfoil hat conspiracy theory's into actual evidence of truth.

But after reading all the Madsen threads and then seeing the dude supposedly post here on DU with the help of DUers I've never seen or heard of before, I'm having a pretty hard time buying it all. Usually when I believe something like this I would tell my friends, relatives, etc, another words, get the word out that something was up and to watch for it... I've haven't done that yet.... And I'm really not even close to doing it.

This is my first post since Nov. 2nd 2004..... and it's MHOP.

tru

[Carolab]

1. Well, they DID have him on Pacifica today

so, that's some shred of support, isn't it?

[jamboi]

113. Since I've corresponded w/ him & helped him post last night I've had enoug

h contact w/ him to think that we should at least give him a hearing and judge his story on its own merits/demerits.

As for you never having heard of me or other new DUers, well I can't help that I'm new to DU, but I'm glad to find a place to conect w/ others who care about preserving our constitutional democracy. I think huge numbers of people were, like me flung from the sidelines onto the playing field by the gut wrenching feeling that something went very wrong in this election. A number of them, like me have found there way here. I recognize that some of the newcomers are people who mean to sew disinformation and disrupt our discussions. You'll have to judge each of these individuals individually and make up your mind based on their actions. Please avoid the very same type of stereotyping and profiling that we decry the righties for.

[pbartch]

143. AVOID STEREOTYPING is right!!

I'm a newcomer too. Should I be less credible than someone with 1000 posts?

I say we give him a chance and stop shooting him down.

[Stand and Fight]

148. Here, Here

I completely agree with that line of thought!!

:toast:

[Emillereid]

155. What show was he on?

[Tace]

2. I, Too, Am Withholding Judgment

Cheers

[Junkdrawer]

3. Me. I don't buy the Madsen stuff...

It's a "burn the books" type theory that has a huge amount of cash buying the election with nebulous "programmers" - forgetting all the hard earned information that's been uncovered over the last several years.

[ixion]

4. I guess I use the tried and true method in these cases...

"if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..."

However I think your skepticism is a good thing in this case. ;-)

It's an anvenue that it still worthy of investigation, IMO, but it's always important to stay grounded and simply seek the truth.

[rfranklin]

5. Until some of those "programmers" come forward and testify...

there isn't any sense in paying attention.

[NVMojo]

52. You tell me you would come forward with this info without some

type of guarantee of protection from the Bush mob. Grow up, people.

[Deb]

6. Same here, because he said he has a "copy" of the check

I don't understand why a check was cut. It seems an electronic transfer of funds would have been used.

Trying to keep an open mind.

[BlueDog2u]

8. Read the Q & A Please n/t

[Carolab]

9. He explained that

said an electronic funds transfer past $10K is flagged.

Quote:

"Sorry for the delay... on the check --it is a bank check or cashier's check. Any EFT larger than $10K would be reported to FINCEN here in Tyson's Corner, VA. One for $29.6 would get automatically reported to CIA, NSA, FBI, IRS, DHS and others. They kept this to as paperless trail as possible."

[w13rd0]

18. Correct...

...transfers over 10k must be properly documented...

[progressoid]

29. Yeah, here's some problems I have with that...

If they wanted a paperless trail, why would they have a check drawn up for 29 million dollars?! If they wanted a paperless trail, they could have smuggled cash in from the cook islands instead. Our borders are wide open.

Somebody else want to help me out with this next one...I'm no financial lawyer, but I have this vague memory of money laundering laws (title 31 I think) that require any financial transaction over 10K to be heavily documented. If the bank in Denver is involved, they would have reported this. i. e. big federal paper trail.

Madsen needs us to make some huge presumptions for all of this to work. Again, I would love for this to be true, but he's doing a poor job of persuasion.

[flyarm]

106. carrying money across border

any american can carry and cross the border $10,000.00 without declaring it, anything over that must be declared, foreigners as well!

from a flight attendant!
$29 mil would mean a whole lot of trips by a whole lot of people, of course unless smuggled or carried on military transport!!

do think iran -contra, and the drug smuggling that went on by air!! and gun smuggling by air and ship!!

[zann725]

139. His thread quote:Kerry people "...not being brightest light in chandelier"

struck me as odd. Being that Kerry has a background as a Prosecutor, and headed up both the BCCI and Iran/Contra too, I find it hard to believe that Kerry would NOT be versed in criminal activity, and planned ahead for it.
Maybe I just misinterpreted the quote...

[yardwork]

145. I interpreted that comment to mean that the Kerry campaign is

holding Madsen somewhat at arm's length.

Here's my feeling, in answer to Trumad's question. Deliberate vote fraud is an incredibly serious charge, and nothing will be done unless there is absolute proof. So far, we have a lot of suspicious events and surprising results - but no hard proof - yet.

I don't know about Madsen, BBV, Bev Harris, or any of the other groups. What I DO know is that it is a good thing that people are looking carefully at all this. I wish that the Democratic Party leadership was looking more carefully. Maybe they are, but just keeping quiet about it.

If it can be proven that bushco stole the election, it will bring them down. We're talking felonies, jail sentences, absolute disgrace.

Personally, I think that bushco is fully capable of having stolen the election, and a lot of signs suggest that they did steal the election, but so far we haven't seen the hard evidence required to prove it.

[rjbny62]

20. check makes no sense, I also think etransfer of funds is logical

[truehawk]

48. e transfers of over 10,000 are logged at the FR

[acmavm]

7. Who knows? Do I believe all of it? Not really, do I think there's some

truth buried in his beliefs? Yes.

Of course money has a large part to do with this mess. The bush* family has committed a lot of crimes because they have access to money. But rarely does anyone talk openly about it, they just usually end up dead somewhere, according to the stories.

The only thing I always tell myself is that there are conspiracy theories simply because there are conspiracies. Everyday a group of totally unprincipaled thugs are pulling something off. I think that's exactly what happened during this election. I just don't know the details, and I don't know if we'll ever really get to the bottom of it all.

[progressoid]

10. I think Madsen's biggest problem was the way he first broke the story

Because of the nature of his source material, it read like a conspiracy right from the start. Since he had to leave out so much detail to protect his sources, it just sounded like rumor. Still does. He's going to have to really pull it together with some hard facts to make it believable. It's just too undefined.

I would like to believe it, but as it stands it could just as easily be a planted story to discredit all of the fraud stories. If Madsen is being exploited, he will be seen as the poster child to cast doubt on all of us as tin-foilers. He would become DU's Dan Rather.

This is also going to be a really hard sell to the masses and the MSM. Does he have an audience outside of the web?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[progressoid]

96. jeepers, somebody wee wee in your Wheaties?

So, if I read something with a critical eye, I'm a freeper? If I dare to challenge anything posted on DU, I must be polluted by fox? Wow, with a single post you deduced my true political leanings and my desire to sabotage DU. Amazing.

I don't doubt that Madsen is investigating this thoroughly, the problem is with his delivery. If he puts this out for public consumption while holding back information critical to his case, it begs to be viewed with a pinch of skepticism. I'm simply not ready to accept everything written about the election or b* just because it's fulfills some base desire to bring down b*. Here's an example from the dark side; I know a guy that believes that Clinton had Ron Brown and Vince Foster killed. He knows this because he heard about a guy that knows a guy that was remote viewer for the CIA that saw it happen in his mind. Well, that's just swell but it doesn't prove anything. Gonna need a little more.

I hope Madsen is right and it brings down this administration and embarrasses the hell out of the MSM. I hope he can make all of the pieces come together, but as it stands, it needs some work.

Skeptically optimistically yours...

[Doremus]

11. I too am withholding judgment for now

His claims are just that right now - claims.

We need to proceed with caution and remember there are few corroborating facts to back up his scenario.

I'm not a total disbeliever, but a little skepticism will serve us better than blind faith.

[Stand and Fight]

69. Holding back

I have got to agree with you. I'm holding back judgment for now, because as I see it Madsen has the history and the credentials to be a reliable source of news. After all the guy is nothing like Jeff Fisher -- he sounds like he has it together, he's reasonable in his assertions, and he's obviously on to something. I want very badly for his claims to be true, but I too am maintaining skepticism until there are tangible hard facts.

[flyarm]

110. i feel the same..to vague!!

last year madsen wrote an article about bush going to iraq and the palstic turkey story, well his time lines were totally off...he never checked facts of time changes and he wrote the story that bush had to wake soldiers and have them eat turkey early in the morning. this proved false and many of us who were posting his story got egg thrown in our faces..it was sloppy reporting at best..

i would love this story to be true, but it is too vague, and even with his q&a i still did not feel any tough questions were answered. i felt that anyone who has been on top of all this voter fraud could have answered they way he did, now thats just my opinion and we know what opinions are worth, but i do not feel comfortable repeating this story without more facts..just the facts folks..real facts , not vague comments .
there are several things mr madsen could have answered without putting anyones life at risk. example, he alluded to media reports and other tabulation places that were locked down, other than warren county , i have searched and had others searching for these so called facts , and i have found no where else..that was a tabulation center ..not polling place, as mr madsen alluded to tabulation places that were locked down. he could have easily answered where those places were he was refering to.
i felt more like mr madsen was now having people here search for places that were locked down , after the fact that he wrote it in his article.
i write an "unprofessional article" here in fla every two weeks, and i will tell you , i do not allude to other articles without crediting that article and putting the source in my article.Nor do i reference other media without the link to the other media article , or person i quote. i am anything but a professional writer. but i certainly know enough to source who i am referencing.

i hope mr madsen is 100% right and if his story has legs that it see's the light of day. but i will not repeat this story until more details ..real details are known with verification.

call me a rove sceptic..but i dont trust rove for a minute, and if he can silence this vote fraud story, he would use anyone to do it...
rove shut down the real story before the election with dan rather..it was not the awol story , but the 9/11 story 60 minutes was going to show and then renegged where the 9/11 commission wrote a supplement to the commission report that named names in this white house of the failures in the march up to 9/11..it was the real story rove smeared cbs for ..to shut down this story...

I dont trust rove, and yes i am a skeptic!!
sorry but i have seen too many sure things that were going to take bush down , and rove has shut them down , and destroyed many peoples lives in doing so! And humiliated some fine people in doing so! and put peoples lives at risk, i.e. Valerie Plameand all the oepratives she worked with all over the world...nope i don't trust rove for one bloody second.
rove sees the truth as his only fear and he sees us as the truth seekers and he sees us as his only fear as we seek the truth.
i for one do not want to fall into his trap..i want facts, just the facts folks...not vague "mays" "could possibly be's" etc.
give me the facts when you have the whole story and you can verify with concrete stuff...fly

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

117. I feel the same way here, and will see how it unfolds

And I do remember the Thanksgiving article Madsen wrote last year, and I checked time zones, and used my fingers and toes (lol)to see if Madsen was right, and he wasn't. The article was called Wag The Turkey.

As to trusting Madsen's story... it is way too vague, no references, the details hazy, and yes the fact that he said other vote counting places were locked down bothers the heck out of me. In fact that question was asked of him in last nights Q&A and he avoided it.

Also, why the heck does rigging the vote through the computers have to be so convoluted? Bush is already buddies with Diebold and ES&S, probably Sequoia too, and all they had to do was hand Rove the codes. The touchscreen and scan machines could have been "fixed" in the factory before being set up in precincts. Remember the votes that started to count backward? Those machines, if they were probably tested, were only tested for a handful of votes, not thousands.

I just posted this on another board. See what Karl Rove was doing election night when he found out Bush was behind Kerry. Notice this is from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3987237.stm

Drawing up blueprints for Bush victory

By Rachel Clarke
BBC News, Washington


Excerpt:


Pressure and pranks

By the time election night came around, Mr Rove was in the White House, where, unusually for a political adviser, he has an office.

He set up computers in the Old Family Dining Room and started tabulating results. He had set up a massive network of contacts, not just in state capitals, but individual districts and precincts to monitor turnout and support.


Mr Rove may spin the news, but the media still wants to hear him
Early exit polls quoted by media seemed to give Mr Kerry the edge, but colleagues said Mr Rove indicated right away that they did not tally with his information.

He used his own data to put Ohio and Florida in the Bush column - bringing cheers from the president and his family when he went into the Roosevelt Room and told them.

And when the TV networks gave either Ohio or Nevada to Mr Bush but not both - which would have led him to be declared as the winner - Mr Rove was one of the president's aides who got on the phone to news chiefs to try to pressure them to change their minds.

[tngledwebb]

12. Perhaps it's true,

but until proven or we are given more substance- it's blowing in the wind.

[Critical Thinker]

13. I ain't buying it - n/t

[Karmadillo]

14. Witch! Witch! Burn! Burn!

Skepticism is not always a bad thing.

[rhite5]

15. Serious Doubts? Yes.

Count me in.

[americanwhothinks]

16. YES! I'M HAVING A VERY HARD TIME WITH IT!

Who knows who this guy is...looks to me like a set up for some real nutty ideas taking over and invalidating the obvious, the important, the clearly messed up....

I'm new here and I've been really impressed by this site, but this whole Madsen thing looks like a setup. I mean, it'd be very easy for the right to make it LOOK LIKE this site is full of nuts-- and all they'd have to do is send in a guy in to make crazy claims, cook up a serious conspiracy theory, and then they send in some supporters for the nut-- more right-wing Yay-men sent here to invalidate DU... and then, if DU were to back this story, set up some kind of email campaign-- the whole DU operation looks suspect. The tin-foil "foil" was sent in, and the serious stuff would be lost in the dust.

Until any of these claims are supported, substantiated--before any real evidence is on the table, I'd say DU is wise to look at this thing as..well, as what it is: nothing but talk.

And DU is not a bunch of talk, from what I've seen-- it's serious people looking at reality.


The Madsen thing reeks and DU, in my view, would be wise to see this as a very suspicious red herring...If this is wrong, if evidence is offered somewhere sometime, THEN DU will take it seriously!

[lamp_shade]

22. Here Here

... or is it "hear, hear"

[senseandsensibility]

17. Welcome back to DU, trumad!

:) Don't be a stranger.

[americanwhothinks]

21. New person grateful to "codgers"

the "codgers" are the folks who are clearly not appearing here to mess with the integrity and sanctity of this site.

it's freaky that anyone can post here...anyone could post and say they're anyone... and honestly, when you look at some of what this "madsen" character says, the question,

who is this really?

it seems a possible answer is:"a lonely guy who wants to be famous for a night"

or "a republican joker who enjoys messing with heads."

anyone claiming anything about "who they are" is suspect in my opinion....

[BlueDog2u]

23. Wow have you not been reading at a furious pace....

Do some research! Answer your own questions. I'm not saying Madsen is right, but he deserves more respect than you are giving him.

[americanwhothinks]

25. Madsen v. They Guy Who Claims to be Madsen

My point was that here on DU you cannot and should not rely on a person's "credibility," as anyone could say they are anyone. perhaps the admin spoke to guy on phone? "cleared" him as the real guy? if so, i didn't hear about it...

So my comments were concerning this site-- about the guy claiming he's "Madsen"-- as to Madsen himself, I'm curious. We'll see what the guy has to say.

But on DU, the facts, the analysis, the evidence should be our concern-- because anything else IS by the nature of "virtual reality," suspect!!

Anyway, regarding research-- I'd say--if you have evidence, offer it. be generous with your own research!

[BlueDog2u]

27. Your skepticism would be more helpful

if you had a concrete criticism of something Mr. Madsen -- or, if you prefer, his double (although unlike you I see absolutely no reason to doubt that this was Mr. Madsen) -- actually said. His identity is not relevant unless you can articulate a motive for deceit and show how the alleged impersonation affects our doubt or acceptance of the things written. Was there anything in particular which you thought was misleading?

[americanwhothinks]

32. Reason for doubt a-plenty

Well, sure-- I mean, the whole thing reads like your classic conspiracy theory-- it's almost comical the way "it all comes together"--

but this isn't evidence...

uhmm...look at what Olbermann says-- I share his objections, esp.-- why would the programmers know where the money is coming from and how much of it is going out altogether? why would checks be written? why is this guy coming forward with this story, given he has no proof?

and why in the world would you "see no motive" here-- it's pretty obvious that it'd be a great idea to derail a serious effort (DU) with a bogus theory-- turn us all into tinfoil hattists-- turn this whole enterprise (DU and all the serious work discussion here) into a dismissable joke--

I mean, you see NO MOTIVE?? This is bizarre to me. DU is the MAIN artery that is keeping the questions of November 2nd alive--

and you see no motive for infiltrating and trying to sabotage?

bizarro.

[BlueDog2u]

132. How would someone pretending to be Madsen

But not being him, and intelligently answering questions as if he were Madsen, providing a series of thoughtful answers, be "infiltrating and trying to sabotage"? There are only two basic possibilities here:

1) Madsen is on to something;
2) Madsen is a dupe.

Logically, one might say that a third is possible:

3) Madsen is himself a plant.

But looking at his biography and other articles, I don't think many would put much credence in this third possibility.

Could Madsen be a dupe of a Rove plant? Possible. But what does that have to do with him appearing at DU answer questions? Nothing, so far as I can tell, except that it shows that he is willing to engage in discussion which suggests that he is at least not a cloistered dupe. Whether he is really on to something remains to be seen. Obviously he has not provided enough information for anyone to be certain of that conclusion at this time. But I believe we should keep our minds open to what he is alleging.

So, to get to the implication of this: when I said I don't see motive, I don't see motive for your allegation that Madsen is being impersonated on these boards, or even for questioning his sincerity (option #3). Do you?

Of course I see motive for trying to discredit the anti-fraud movement with planted stories, which leaves option #2 as a viable one. But that is not the same thing as doubting that our visitor is Madsen or identifying him as an intentional promoter of false stories. Your doubts about Madsen's identity don't seem credible to me, your objections to his story, while not entirely unwarranted, seem exaggerated, and your implication that he might be insincere, entirely without foundation.

[jamboi]

115. What silliness. Look I was on-line w/ Madsen and helped him get on

and his e-mails to me, the articles he wrote (having told me that he was about to post them and the main points of the story all before he posted them), his interview on Pacifica and his Q&A last night all perfectly aligned. That was Madsen!

[BlueDog2u]

172. Of course it was /eom

[Pepper32]

130. It can be proven...

All Madsen has to do is mention his discussion at DU in an article or something. And that will prove it was actually him.

Why would someone pretend to be Madsen to begin with, knowing Madsen could easily prove it to be fake? :think:

[Stand and Fight]

149. Absolutely! n/t

[BlueDog2u]

173. There's no motive for the alleged deception...

as I already said.

And yes, not only is there no motive, but anyone undertaking the deception would be found out. Allegations like this lead me to distrust the posters who make them. Perhaps its just epistemic confusion....

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

19. I'm still on the fence about him, and

Just finished reading the whole question and answer thread. One question, that was something I expressed on other threads was is that I am only aware of Warren being the only vote tabulating place being under lock down, what were the other places that he claimed existed? He never answered that. This is not a question that would bring danger to anyone. So why not answer it.

He also mentioned coders used from Brazil. Why would they need anything that convoluted if Diebold and ES&S were in the palm of Bush's hand?

Which leads to this... why was such a convoluted plan needed, and so many people needed to be involved as Madsen suggests? Bev Harris in Votergate shows how easy it is, as long as you have access to the central tabulator how simple it is to change votes.

I have also stated on prior threads that all one has to remember is that Karl Rove when finding out that Bush was behind, started to play with a bank of computers on a WH dining room table, as reported by BBC. The numbers started to change in favor of Bush.

I also think there was possible collusion with MSM. They were stalling on calling the most crucial states, stating they didn't have enough information. It is almost as if they were giving someone more time to manipulate the numbers.

[tngledwebb]

30. BBC link for Rove story? And...

Masden may be right, or not, but either way US MSM will NOT not be talking about Masden. MSM and Congress have been complicit with BushCo for years-

(Think of how Dan Rather was set up, remember the Senate that refused to lift a finger to stop vote fraud in 2000, and recall how quickly Congress approved two illegal and unjustified wars, plus the unconsitutional Patriot Acts and tax cuts for the rich. And the virtual silence of the media.)

Then pray that the outside world will soon come to our aid.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

35. BBC Link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3987237.stm
Drawing up blueprints for Bush victory

By Rachel Clarke
BBC News, Washington


Excerpt:

By the time election night came around, Mr Rove was in the White House, where, unusually for a political adviser, he has an office.

He set up computers in the Old Family Dining Room and started tabulating results. He had set up a massive network of contacts, not just in state capitals, but individual districts and precincts to monitor turnout and support.


Mr Rove may spin the news, but the media still wants to hear him
Early exit polls quoted by media seemed to give Mr Kerry the edge, but colleagues said Mr Rove indicated right away that they did not tally with his information.

He used his own data to put Ohio and Florida in the Bush column - bringing cheers from the president and his family when he went into the Roosevelt Room and told them.

And when the TV networks gave either Ohio or Nevada to Mr Bush but not both - which would have led him to be declared as the winner - Mr Rove was one of the president's aides who got on the phone to news chiefs to try to pressure them to change their minds.

[tngledwebb]

39. Thanks.

Very interesting wording.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. Your welcome, and

This glares out:

And when the TV networks gave either Ohio or Nevada to Mr Bush but not both - which would have led him to be declared as the winner - Mr Rove was one of the president's aides who got on the phone to news chiefs to try to pressure them to change their minds.

[tngledwebb]

43. And a red flag should have popped up there ,

if the BBC was paying attention- imagine if Tony Blair's top aide called tv networks on an election night, for whatever reason.

But still not a whisper from the BBC on USA '04 voting problems, or even related - ie internet fuelled CT's- stories.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

46. Although reported by the BBC, as with this Administration's

Modus Operandi, it was all done in plain sight.

Just like some of the events surrounding 9/11.........

They are so blatantly arrogant. They almost seem to shove their dirty deeds in your face, and say, dare me.

Case in point, and something that made the MSM...

Bush with the receiver on his back, "first" seen during the first debate. It was reported on widely, and what does he do? Wear it for the second and last debate too. No one had the nerve to really call him on it, and of course no one had the guts to pat him down.

Yet, I have suspected for the last couple of years that he's been wired. That's why he screws up all the time when making speeches that don't have teleprompters. How often he cocks his head as if listening. Then you can see how he misunderstands what's being said to him, when you get such words of wisdom as Peeance and Freeance..........

[tngledwebb]

57. Like 9/11 indeed.

World media have been all over the wired prez story- mainly as just another way to have a laugh at the crazy Americans.

But with 9/11 and compelling PHOTOGRAPHIC evidence that belies the Official Story and tilts to MIHOP, most of the world media has turned a blind eye. They're likely to be even less interested in statistical voting anomalies and exit poll discrepancies, ie a 'bunch of numbers that can be twisted to prove a point.'
It is as if we never left the Dark Ages...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

76. Actually, I believe that the International Community knows

A lot more about 9/11 than the vast majority of Americans do. There was a German best seller debunking it. You also have that French website that showed it was impossible for a commercial airline to only make a 16' hole, only, on the side of the Pentagon. Then there was a fantastic article by Michael Meacher, MP (and former Tony Blair Environmental Minister) in the Guardian. He wrote about PNAC, and how this administration needed 9/11 to set the wheels of Rebuilding America's Defenses into motion. The real CT is the "official" story that the administration and the media wants us to believe.

One of the biggest crimes of aiding and abetting that MSM has done is to keep silent about a huge case of reckless disregard for life on the part of this White House and the EPA. The White House edited an EPA report, and then had the EPA announce that it was safe for those who work and live near Ground Zero to return. There was absolutely no proof of that. Now 10000s of NYers are suffering from respiratory illness, over 800 firefighters had to take early retirement for disability, asthma cases amongst children in Manhattan is soaring, and even pets are becoming ill. Most striking are the pets. Due to their shorter lifespans, the problems that came along with the pollution make themselves apparent faster, which doesn't bode well for the long term affects.

The people of NY were not only victimized on September 11th, but the Bushites gave them a "gift" that keeps on giving....

[tngledwebb]

83. Agreed. Western govt's and their intelligence services

must know the real 9/11 story and how BushCo rigged 2 or 3 elections. German and French, Spanish, Canadian media have at least scratched the surfaces , but BBC still accepts the CW.

While our MSM is complicit in BushCo crimes.
Truth will out, if we survive...

[flyarm]

131. the epa and bush and 9/11

yes thank you ommm...actually i read a report that all the dogs used at wtc ground zero have died!! and my son worked there after 9/11..volunteering his time..that has had me furious on top of my already furious madness of buses complicity of 9/11!!

[Straight Shooter]

97. re: coders from Brazil

Poppy Bush is very fond of South America. Interesting, also, how close Ecuador is to Columbia.

"The aircraft crashed short of the runway while attempting to land, after its wing clipped a light pole in heavy fog. The plane was scheduled to pick up former President George Bush for a trip to Ecuador.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/

I'm just sayin'

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

108. I understand what you're saying but

Bush has Diebold and ES&S in his pocket. Why does he have to go out of the country? They just hand them to him, voila.

[Straight Shooter]

109. Makes it harder to trace

And if you think U.S. operatives are nasty, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[rhite5]

24. Until Madsen came on the scene

I imagined that votes were moved from JK to GB at the state level in a lot of states, but that they were moved by modem, perhaps from across the country by a single individual who was watching the accumulation of votes everywhere. Doesn't seem to me that hiring a bunch of techs would have been necessary and would certainly introduce a huge risk of screw-ups or leaks. I could not believe it was done the way he described.

This was bugging me and then I saw Elorial's comment in the long Q&A thread - Bingo!

[dweller]

45. which comment from Elorial?

sorry, it's a long thread there, and i've only been able to get a partial load of it.

tia.
dp

[notadmblnd]

92. I believe they stole the election more than one way

with voter roll purging
with voter disenfranchisement
with padding votes for bush
with altering totals

which ever way they thought they could get away withn in each situation, they used.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

26. Remember the root of the word "Skeptic":

In Greek, it means "up in the air". That's me.

I am, however, willing to listen to his case. Why? I just might learn something.

[Quakerfriend]

37. my thoughts exactly rhite5

I do however, have great respect for M's CV. Can't quite get my thoughts around it.

[ozymandius]

28. I wonder if Madsen has tipped his hand too far.

There were a number of red flags that went up for me. First rule of investigative journalism: you never let your opposition know that you're working on the story before the story is waterproof. He said last night that he has met with members of the Kerry/Edwards team. He said that he is going to meet interested parties of the CIA. This tells me that his story is not solid. He should already have the technical data, signed affidavits, post-election memos from the Bush/Cheney team saying "good work guys", contract details (either verbal, confirmed by affidavit, or written). He says that he is working on obtaining all of the above.

These issues are very glaringly open. Whatever Madsen does not have right now - you can be sure that the opposition forces are quickly closing avenues he will need to obtain them.

[rhite5]

31. I share the suspician about the Madsen identity.

The real Wayne Madsen is a well respected investigative reporter who has done some excellent work. This guy speaks (posts) a little too flippantly, disparaging specific people, etc.

[americanwhothinks]

33. i agree that the guy's

language, tone, style seems inconsistent with a serious reporter....

and why WOULDN'T this be someone else???

i mean, isn't this an obvious, easy ploy? honestly, i was amazed by that whole thread--

[jamboi]

134. Well I e-mailed WM asking him to show the doubing Thoms the nail marks in

his hands and feet. So its up to him to respond in whatever way he chooses to.

[Minstrel Boy]

49. There is no justifiable reason for such suspicion.

We should expect a more casual tone from him on an Internet bulletin board than in a published article, shouldn't we?

I emailed Madsen yesterday, and the response was entirely in keeping with the tone and message of "Casolaro." As was his interview on Pacifica Radio yesterday.

Wayne Madsen has not been body snatched by Karl Rove.

[jamboi]

118. Give me a break. See my previous posting re: "Thats' silliness..." n/t

[KoKo]

34. I'm skeptical. And, can't imagine why some of the posters wanted the

Q&A on DU Front Page. That make me wonder if it really was Madsen on that thread. And, why not have a "moderated" forum for all the questions? Whether it was Madsen or not, I don't think we learned much so I'll withold judgement. The recounts and other investigations are what are important. If there are other trails then they will be followed. I don't think there's any way "we" can help Madsen with this, if it was Madsen. And who knows whether if it really is Madsen he hasn't been given information to send him off in the wrong direction. :shrug:

[jamboi]

119. For one thing I don't know how to do a "Moderated Thread" & since I heard

that phrase for the first time last night DURING the session how could I respond to it. It sounds like a good idea for next time if someone will explain how it works. On the nomination I think its important enough to put it on the front page. So? I didn't say that I thought every word from his mouth (or keyboard) was infallible or shouldn't be subjected to full testing. I just think its worth further investigation.

[KoKo]

137. I would think he'd rather his replies be on the "inside" of DU... If I

were investigating would I want such a long thread where I hadn't been able to answer many questions out there? His article is linked all over the place. I think it's not a good idea to put it on DU Front Page...and I think Olberman made some good points about Wayne's latest article.

I'm a fan of Madesen and probably have read all his articles in the last three years...but this article seems "in the works" so I don't see how it works as DU Frontpage right now. :shrug:

A moderated forum is when a person from the "Mainstream" is asked to come on DU usually by the Admins or cleared by the Admins and questions can be queued in advance. Last night was more like a mob scene with three running threads and folks interrupting and throwing the same questions to him over and over. It didn't lend credibility to this really being Madsen and if it was he was probably overwhelmed by all the people going at him.

Just my 2 cents about this. I thought we looked kind of rude and I posted a question on the thread myself...so I'm as guilty as anyone else.

[propagandafreegal]

36. I'm a little wary but keeping an open mind....

We will see what happens, if it all plays out, right?

[progressoid]

38. Any body else remember that weird internet thing a couple years ago`

(or maybe I just read about it a couple years ago)...Anywho, there was this guy FROM THE FUTURE, that was answering questions on some blog. People would ask him questions about the future and he would tell them nebulous things that would feed their emotions but just barely based in reality. He could give an impression of credibility without any actual proof.

That's kinda how I felt reading Madsen's articles and the Q&A here on DU. Lots of dressing but no meat and potatoes.

Skeptically optimistic...

[distantearlywarning]

42. That guy's name was John Titor....

You know what's really weird about that? He insisted that we (America) would have a civil war in 2005 because of the results of the 2004 presidential election. When asked to elaborate on that statement, he made a cryptic reference to the election results of 2000.

He also said that the govt. elected in 2004 would start taking our civil rights away. He also predicted a war with Iran.

His stuff is starting to seem more plausible now....

I am learning not to dismiss anything these days, no matter how bizarre and unbelievable. I don't think any of us have even a fraction of the whole picture of what is going on out there.

[ahyums]

70. I just looked him up, not only does he seem to be a nut case he seems to

be an extreme right wing nut case, he is obviously into the whole survivalist game, and he links to a website which has got the old "Sore Looserman" banner on it showing who won by county - similar to the ones being used this time round to show how obvious the mandate is, clearly insinuating that the only people who will be safe will be those living in "Bush Country"- he must have been doing that because if he says take a close look at who won by county and he talks about a nuclear war it's obvious that non urban areas would be likely to be safer. So basically it seems that not only is he an idiot, he's an idiot with an agenda. Of course (just to hedge my bets a little bit) if a civil war were to start next year (and if we are to give him far more credibility than he deserves), it would be obvious that in the end the freeper types win, so the effort to defeat that outcome would need to be seriously escalated.

[truehawk]

61. Would you have believed the Right Wing Plan to take over the Media

If it had not already happened?

I had a VERY hard time trying to get it through ANYONE's head that the Savings and Loan Defaults had been CAUSED by a change in a regularatory rule. Lincoln could have been delt with as a seperate case, but it provided cover for a change in the capitolization ratio without leaving the S&Ls time to sell new stock, that set up the industry wide asset stripping operation known as the Resolution Trust that made a lot of Rethug BILLIONAIRS.

Some group of people made 19bill + world wide selling short the companies in the World Trade Center towers, and their insurers and their re-insurers.


I never ask to live in a Robert Ludlum novel, but these guys specialize in making truth stranger than fiction.

That said, I think that Madsen fishing for peices and trying to put the peices of the puzzle together. Weather those peices go to THIS puzzle or are part of something else, is something I don't think even he knows yet.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

78. LOL! Here is a link to a site about him....

http://johntitor.com/

[Duncan]

41. Totally Unbelievable - Drop it unless it grows legs

I seems like an attempt to derail and disrupt valid fraud investigation. Right now, statistical anomoly is the big story - that is the story that needs to be widely heard. Media coverage of details about how fraud was perpetrated are harmfull if they are not based on identifiable proof. Madsen's story sounds like BS to me. I know fraud occured just based on the statistics, and I hope the details are figured out, but I see no reason to believe Madsen.

And if there was truth to it, why did he bring it out without proof. No reason to waste energy on this until it walks by itself. Maybe I missed something, but I havn't seen any substantial addressing of Olbermann's problems with Madsen's vague grand unified theory.

[Ducks In A Row]

105. he addressed this in the question thread

[H2O Man]

44. I think it's very important

to have people question every single bit of it. And ask the toughest possible questions. Because while I think it is generally true, I think that the republican machine will discredit it, and that the general public will be concerned with how the democrats pushing the story respond to the toughest questions.

I note that Jesse Jackson spoke about many of the same issues yesterday. And I've read that some democratic attorneys are preparing to file a case in the Ohio State Supreme Court, based on many of the issues raised by Madsen. Does the Jackson/attorney actions prove that the charges are true? No, of course not, but it supports the idea that it is well worth our time to look very closely at the case.

This I do know: in September, I spoke with a fairly high-ranking Kerry campaign official about a break-in at an ACT headquarters near Waterville, PA. No money taken; just computer hard-drives. It may be that I am of a certain generation, but it reminded me of Watergate. Anyhow, in one of the phone calls, the person told me a little about the dirty tricks going on in 10 "battle ground" states.

I think it is extremely important that people like you ask the hardest-hitting questions possible. And that we realize we are on the same side -- this isn't a fight between those who tend to agree with Madsen, and those who are skeptical. An honest discussion is the most valuable thing that could happen right now.

[Helga Scow Stern]

116. Right on. We must realize and remember we are on the same side.

As much or more harm as the MSM and the "republican machine" can inflict, we can hurt ourselves equally by not keeping up an honest discussion that allows all kinds of questions, especially the hardest.

[H2O Man]

152. Thank you

for responding to my post! I was thinking that no one had noticed it. We have the ability to discuss important issues in a mature manner on DU. Most people seem willing and able to do so. There are others who seem to want to force wedges in.

[grumpy old fart]

47. This type of non journalistic tin hat stuff....

does nothing but a disservice to those who are trying to get to the bottom of REAL issues. It allows the MSM to just dismiss everything as conspiracy crap. Dude should get some solid facts, or just shut up.

[CementDude]

51. Soon time will indeed run out..

(Regardless of what anyone else would have you believe)..

..and we'll all look back and regret this type of "noise" which drowned out the important issues. I think we'll mainly regret that Kerry/Edwards never officially stepped up, asked for an Ohio recount, and sent their resources (attorneys and cash) to help fight for what they promised - making sure every vote was counted.

If they had done that, we'd have something - there would be a chance. All we have now is noise. People will never hear the "truth".

[Minstrel Boy]

58. This is true investigative journalism.

Maybe you mistake it for "tinfoil hat stuff" because America sees so little of it these days.

Madsen has a copy of the check. He was speaking to the DNC all weekend. He is meeting with disgruntled CIA buddies this week. He is protecting his sources. He is establishing a money trail that could have great evidentiary value, and matches the Bush family's Standard Operating Procedure.

[H2O Man]

62. I agree.

I think there is a big difference between an established DUer saying that (s)he is skeptical, and has questions about the information, and someone who dismisses it out-of-hand. In fact, there is --without any question -- a precinct that was shut-down in Ohio by people posing as federal "authorities." If the whole idea is "tin foil," I'd like those who make that claim to explain what did happen.

[BlueDog2u]

64. Yes Indeed

Where is the phantom FBI agent from Warren county? This story in itself stinks. And it jibes with Madsen's account. And let's not forget that the Talahassee Election's Office, which apparently has central tabulators for the entire state, was shut down for several hours the morning of Nov. 2 because of a bomb threat. That makes two election offices in the two most hotly contested states. Is that a coincidence? Doesn't sound like it to me.

[seemslikeadream]

90. ***Election 2004: 73 SCHOOLS LOCKEDDOWN IN PALM BEACH ***

***Election 2004: 73 SCHOOLS LOCKEDDOWN IN PALM BEACH ***
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=80870&mesg_id=80870

[Left Brain]

107. Re speaking to the DNC

Although Mr. Madsen does make claims to have talked to the "Kerry people" and the DNC over the weekend, what proof is there? What I mean to say is that unless and until there is some kind of confirmation of this from the Kerry camp and/or DNC, that piece of information is hearsay.

I'm hopeful that Madsen's claims are solid, but I also have doubts. Excitement and curiosity are one thing, blind faith another.

[flyarm]

127. precisely!! re: speaking to the dnc

precisely , i could say i spoke to kerry people as well.. the top kerry person running pinellas here in fla and sarasota and bradenton lived with me from may until last week , i spoke to him about this , and he just laughed, and he is an attorney , and was in
charge ofthe biggest area here in so west fla!! but because i spoke to him means nothing!! And i spoke to the field rep and lady who booked all rallys and speaking engagements
who was in charge of del sandusky ( swift boat vet who was with kerry in nam) it means nothing!!

i hate being this skeptical..and i dont mean to dampen peoples
hope or madsens story ,it could be 100% dead on...i pray to god it is, i pray to god we get bush once and for all...no one wants that more than me...i hold bush responsible for the deaths of my co-workers on 9/11..but anything that i my self will say or carry to others has to be fool proof, as my credibility is at stake , and that i take very seriously...i have worked too hard to get the truth out there and have taken many risks doing so..i have stood up to 9/11 commissioners..i have fought the fight,
but........
... people more hard questions need to be asked of mr madsen and more real answers need to be brought forward before this story can have real legs..

[Minstrel Boy]

167. "what proof is there?"

What proof is there you're not Karl Rove? :shrug:

I'm being facetious, but just barely. I've been reading Madsen for years, as have many others here, and he's earned our informed trust. That's nothing like "blind faith."

Many people saying this sounds crazy had never heard of him before last week. Many of them also apparently have done little reading in American deep politics.

It's possible Madsen may not nail down this story, and he may yet fall on his face, but I am persuaded he is not pulling this out of thin air.

[Straight Shooter]

98. Oh, come on. The MSM dismisses EVERYTHING as conspiracy crap

It's their favorite label. If they don't want to cover it, if it interferes with His Righteousness King George, fuggetaboudit.

I keep one eyebrow arched in skepticism, but I'll give Madsen the benefit of the doubt. Truth is stranger than fiction.

[NVMojo]

50. Yawn....

[stirringstill]

54. Let It Play Out--It Will Stand or Fall On Its Merits

Whitewater was invented by Republicans to target Clinton, which led to Lewinsky and almost brought down the Clinton Presidency. It is difficult to determine at this point if Madsen is truly on the trail of voter fraud, but I credit him for being relatively up front with what he has and what he doesn't have. He has thrown this out into the blogs in part because he admits he doesn't have all of the pieces to slam the case closed. He has met with Kerry reps and Dem Party reps and has contacts in the CIA, FBI, and other agencies. In contrast to a lot of so called conspiracy theories, they remain theories in part because only pieces of a narrative are ever unearthed. This time things may be different. It is entirely premature to claim that this is distraction from other voting issues. Multiple lines of investigation should be pursued and this is definitely one of them. People have complained that it does not seem plausible--Brazillian coders and a number of technicians. I do not disagee but it may all make more sense as the investigation progresses.

[IndyOp]

56. Madsen a freeper? You decide.

I am not saying he is, I am not saying he is not. I do want to share what I know about this. I e-mailed Wayne Madsen a few days ago to ask him to share his 'reports from around the country' about lockdowns. I asked because Eloriel had requested that we search for stories similar to the one in Warren that prevented citizens access from watching the count. The DUer's found 13+ articles that are concerning. Madsen sent me the 4 that appear below. The problem? The 4 'references' he sent were very, very weak -- they all sound more like appropriate security measures and/or minor glitches. If this is the kind of research on which he is basing his entire story, well? My hunch is that some of this story is true and some false -- by discrediting the false parts of the story Rove will discredit the entire story. If you aren't aware of this sort of behavior in past check out the movie "Fortunate Son."

System weighs 14 pounds and will be transported to polling place by inspector at which time it will be zeroed out and the polls will be opened. At 8 p.m., the polls will be closed and the touch screens will be transported to Merced and placed in an individual lock down facility which is password protected and records when each device is moved. Opening and closing of each unit is done by internal and external serial number. Software security will be accomplished by logic and accuracy testing of each unit and is open to the public for review.
http://web.co.merced.ca.us/elections/touchvote.html

For seven days, a paperless voting machine sat mute. It refused to tell Collin County elections officials and observers what votes it had recorded at Rose Mary Haggar Elementary School on Campbell Road. from a report in the Dallas Morning News <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/c... >

The touch-screen machine locked up during voting Nov. 2 and was taken out of service. Election night, despite coaxing from technicians, the machine would not divulge results from 63 voters.
<http://vote2004.eriposte.com/redstates/texas.htm#TEXAS>

Ms. Iachetta is inviting any members of the media interested in the eSlate’s security procedures to attend the “lockdown” and machine certification process on Friday, February 6th at 2 p.m. in the Basement Conference Room of City Hall. At this time the Electoral Board along with the Registrar will perform the Logics and Accuracy test and lock down all the machines before they are sent to the precincts for Tuesday’s election.
<http://www.charlottesville.org/content/files/3182DFBE-51DE-4E17-98C4-697C97B2946F.htm>

[Minstrel Boy]

59. Madsen is now a registered DUer, and it's against the rules

to suggest a DUer is a freeper.

[Truman01]

77. Doesn't this happen ALL of the time???? n/t

[jamboi]

121. Hell no! He may be right or wrong, but he's certainly no freeper. n/t

[Stand and Fight]

60. Healthy Skepticism

I believe that we have to proceed carefully on this one guys. Let's be honest -- Madsen's assertions are literally DU's collective wet dream. That is what annoys me so damn much about the whole issue -- the fact that it just comes together so nicely. It is even more bothersome that it comes together so nicely at a time when we have really begun to dig up some ugly stuff. Maybe that was Wayne Madsen on the Q&A thread, maybe it wasn't him... Either way, we'd better be damn sure that we investigate the investigator, because if we fail to do so we could get a bad case of the "Rather bug." We don't want to see all of our hard work invalidated because we are eager to prove the unprovable.

It's entirely likely that Madsen is a good natured guy with great intentions. Do y'all know what they call someone who is easily taken advantage of, cheated, blamed, or ridiculed? Well, my friends, for all of Madsen's good intentions, he could be just that -- a patsy. I don't want to see DU made out to be a bunch of dammed patsies, so it is in our best interest to remain skeptical and armed with our better judgment. Let's face it -- Madsen has not presented us with ANY HARD EVIDENCE. We don't know this guy from apples and oranges. Yes, he could be a Rovian tool to disarm us of the very credible prima facia evidence that we have so arduously collected in the past four weeks, and so we must, we have to, proceed with extreme caution.

[Minstrel Boy]

63. "We don't know this guy from apples and oranges"

Well, you know what? Some of us do. Some of us have been reading him for years. I for one trust his intuition and his judgement.

Some people here don't seem to appreciate that this is an ongoing investigation. And in order to safeguard the investigation, and protect his sources, he hasn't given us the complete picture, or rather as complete as he's pieced it together himself.

[Stand and Fight]

66. You miss my point friend

We know it is an ongoing investigation, and we appreciate that fact plenty. However, we are trying to exercise a reasonable amount of caution in reading into the story. As for the comment you quoted, I stand by it. We have no way of KNOWING that the person who posted as Wayne Madsen is really Wayne Madsen. It is not an insult to anyone, so please don't take it that way. We're working together on this... Having a collective dialectic. Read the thread I just posted please...

[Minstrel Boy]

68. Skepticism is fine, but you're going beyond reasonable caution.

You say "We have no way of KNOWING that the person who posted as Wayne Madsen is really Wayne Madsen."

I say we can know he is with as much certainty as we can know anything here.

Nothing "Casolaro" said contradicted Wayne Madsen's published work, his interview or his emails, of which I've been a recipient as well. So why spin our wheels on this point?

[Stand and Fight]

80. Why spin our wheels on this point?

The term "going beyond reasonable caution" uttered in this medium, given the story, just doesn't make sense. I don't see any harm in asking the tough questions in regards to this story. I do see great harm in accepting anything connected with it in blind faith, at face value. I stand by my convictions. One must ask the tough questions. One must maintain a level of healthy skepticism. It is an ongoing investigation as you pointed out, and there fore NONE of it is fact as of this moment -- only supposition.

[Minstrel Boy]

84. I agree with you on this:

"I don't see any harm in asking the tough questions in regards to this story."

But my earlier comment was regarding your questioning Madsen's identity, which I think we are safe to assume. If even that is in dispute, we can't even address the story.

[Stand and Fight]

86. Totally valid

That's a totally valid point that you bring up, but I still feel we can address the story by questioning whether or not the person who answered questions last night was Wayne Madsen. Want to clear this up? Email Madsen and ask him. That's the best way.

[Minstrel Boy]

89. But I don't need clarity on this. I'm satisfied it's him.

So I'll leave it to others to pester him with "Was that really you?" emails.

Though I've already seen some wonder if it's really Madsen's email account, so I don't know what it would be worth.

[mirrera]

67. Mind open not convinced n/t

[Stand and Fight]

65. Likely Nightmare Scenario for Madsen

One last point that I haven't seen anyone bring up... Stay with me on this people, because it's going to get kinda weird toward the end. I'm going to try to put us in the mindset of those who supposedly stole this election, and what their reaction would be about Madsen's story.

What would be the best way for Madsen to protect himself and his sources? I'll tell you because it is right there in front of each and everyone of us. The best way to protect himself and his sources is to have them come forward with documentation, recordings, and what have you. To whom would it be best for them to "come out of the closet"? Not us. The main stream media has almost completely ignored us. If Madsen really has something, then it would be best -- albeit risky -- for him to come to them with his evidence. The man speaks as if he has hard evidence. Well then, fine! Prove it in the best possible way by showing up at any reputable news source and reveal all to them with his sources, tapes rolling, and lay it out there for the world to see. In an age of instant communication, the very best way to guarantee your the safety and integrity of your information -- in a case like this -- is to make sure as many people as possible have access to that information. That is to say, that if Madsen does this he offers his sources (and himself) the best safety net that they are going to get. Yes, it would be hard to do, but if he has the hard evidence, if he truly has sources, what has he got to fear? Let me tell you this friends -- he has a great deal more to fear lurking around in Rovian shadows because he's playing in the same territory of the beast. And we all know about home-field advantage. Right now Rove and his cronies have that advantage. If Madsen values his story, his life, his integrity, then he will stop all of this pussy-footing around. He'll get out of the dark because if he doesn't that darkness will consume him.

Let's play... Let's put ourselves in the minds of the people who rigged the election.

Put yourself in the mind of the people who are supposedly responsible for instigating this crime, this fixing an election through nefarious means. You've done your very best to seal up any potential leaks and you know damn well that there is going to be some. You want to ensure that your crime is not discovered. You've hired all the best people for the job. People who are every bit as devious as you in their character. You've succeeded in getting your boss "re-elected". You've plugged most of your leaks, but not all of them. There's bound to be some individuals who are unsatisfied with the way you've handled things, with the way you've handled them. You pay them, but in the end they don't feel you've paid them enough or at all.

Let's face it -- there is far more danger to this Madsen and his sources if the world doesn't know anything except for the cryptic information he's relayed so far. Quite honestly, Madsen staying in the shadows will enable us to have him killed. There, we said it. If we were behind such a plot and knew that our plot was hitting the "information super highway," that no one knows whom this Madsen's foreign sources are, that he is talking to what the media has dubbed as "tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist"... Well, we'd have the son of a bitch killed. Plain and simple. Because we'd be dammed if we're going to let something like this leak! Especially if the son of a bitch is only talking to kooks online that my media has labeled as crazy conspiracy theorist. Who's gonna miss him? Who's gonna care since he's only exposed the truth to them? In fact, fuck it, let's find these talkers and silence those bastards too -- fuck 'em all for talking. Kill every last one of them. This can't be found out. These turncoats can't be allowed to get away with exposing me. They'll pay. We'll snuff out the son of a bitch before he can investigate this any further. The world will only see what we allow it to see, what we make reality to be -- nothing more. Madsen and his troupe of leakers will die at the end of a cold steel barrel.

I'm going to start a thread on this for discussion...

[New Earth]

73. i am also VERY skeptical

and have been since the first day this story came out. Hearing Madsen on the radio yesterday made me a little better, but i still don't trust the story until we have more details, and until more credible people are talking about it or confirming it.

I also HIGHLY RECOMMEND that DU'er STOP nominating the Q&A for the home page. What happens if this gets on the home page, and all these people come to read it, thinking we have some kind of 'inside scoop', and then it ends up being a load of shit? this site and board will then be considered unreliable for accurate info and make people think that this board is full of gullible, conspiracy theory nut jobs.

I'm only saying this because I love this forum, it keeps me sane, but i dont want to see it's reputation go down for a misleading story.

[mirrera]

71. oops replied to wrong post...

I will hear anyone's ideas because that is how breakthroughs happen, but like others have said, it is a little too pat and way complicated! Some things seem to ring so true I need proof they're wrong, like all the stuff Bev has outlined. This seems so full of holes I need proof that it even floats. Waiting to be convinced, hasn't happened yet.

[Avalux]

74. No way of knowing it was Madsen

I posted a question last night and hung out to read his replies, all with a shade of doubt. Here's why - if I were Wayne Madsen, I'm not sure I'd make a publicized appearance on DU and answer questions about things I don't want the other side to know. There's just something about it that bothers me - he must know this site is watched. It's feasible "colasaro" could have been a plant. I noticed too that the email he posted was an AOL account. Would Wayne Madsen use AOL?

[jamboi]

122. Give me a major break! Of course it was Madsen. I checked him out B4 I

asked him on. E-mail him yourself if you don't believe my post above where I briefly go into why I know its him.

[Avalux]

125. Didn't mean to offend you

I'm sorry if I did. These are strange times though, and asking questions is what it's all about. :hi:

[Pepper32]

141. We can prove that was Madsen!!

All Madsen has to do is mention his discussion at DU in an article or something and post it to his site. If that's not enough proof I don't know what is...

[smartvoter]

75. The details are too many and too funky.

It just doesn't smell right. I don't buy it whatsoever.

[New Earth]

79. has anyone thought to email Madsen at this point?

And ask him to confirm that it was him that was here last night?

[Stand and Fight]

81. Good point

I PM'd you.

[jamboi]

123. Go for it. He answers a lot of e-mail and if he's not buried in it now &

sees your e-mail he'll likely respond. As a matter of fact I'll e-mail him right now to urge him to respond.

[OneBlueSky]

82. the check makes me skeptical . . .

a single check to cover the whole operation? . . . doesn't make sense . . . there are easier and less obvious ways to move money around these days . . . I'll withhold judgement for now, but this has the distinct scent of a Rovian setup, imho . . .

[Minstrel Boy]

85. He did address this.

He said a single check was easier to hide than large electronic transfers; that the transaction used financial entities which are no strangers to Bush moneylaundering; and that the operation fit their MO.

[OneBlueSky]

102. I know he addressed it . . . and I still don't buy it . . . n/t

.

[merh]

87. Hey trumad - welcome back to the forum of the

wounded yet hopeful!

Take notice of all the newbies that have posted here in this thread that want to see the Madsen story go away or that "doubt its credibility". I find that pretty telling!

In the madsen thread, one rovette wants names of the sources so he can convince his reporter friend that the story has legs and wants the check posted.

I understand and respect your skeptism, but notice how many newbies want the story killed. :shrug:

:hug: to you, I understand your time away. I hope your soul has healed somewhat, we have a lot to do and need your mind.

[trumad]

91. Thanks merh

I finally crawled out of my fetal postion and have begun the long process of recovery. ;-)

[New Earth]

101. i hope everyone knows i'm not trying to discredit the story

not at all. i'm just being cautious. i did notice all the noobs who came in last night whose FIRST post was in the Madsen Q/A thread!!! Can they be any more obvious?

[pointsoflight]

88. Healthy skepticism is good, but let's see where it goes.

[trumad]

94. Healthy skepticism indeed.

Look.... as I said in the original post, I've seen many many instances of a story that was off the wall, come true here at DU. I honestly believe that the tin foilers and the errr conspiracy theorists here on DU play a pivotal role in our quest for the truth.

This story could play out wonderfully for all of us. BUT, as an avid reader of every know blog out there, I'm struck at how quite they all are with regards to this. Oh sure KOS ran something but dontcha think that something this big would be burning up the blogs. It aint happening.

I try to weigh all the evidence before jumping on the wagon and from the evidence that I have seen, I aint jumping......yet.

[F.Gordon]

93. My main concern is this........

It seems that one theory didn't pan out so he's going with another along the same lines. Has anyone asked him about this?

Here’s the scenario we must be all be prepared for:

If the pre-election internal tracking polls and public opinion polls show the Kerry-Edwards ticket leading in key battleground states, the Bush team will begin to implement their plan to announce an imminent terrorist alert for the West Coast for November 2 sometime during the mid afternoon Pacific Standard Time. At 2:00 PST, the polls in Kentucky and Indiana will be one hour from closing (5:00 PM EST – the polls close in Indiana and Kentucky at 6:00 PM EST). Exit polls in both states will be known to the Bush people by that time and if Kentucky (not likely Indiana) looks too close to call or leaning to Kerry-Edwards, the California plan will be implemented. A Bush problem in Kentucky at 6:00 PM EST would mean that problems could be expected in neighboring states and that plans to declare a state of emergency in California would begin in earnest at 3:00 PM PST.

The U.S. Northern Command, which has military jurisdiction over the United States, will, along with the Department of Homeland Security and Schwarzenegger’s police and homeland security officials in Sacramento, declare an “imminent” terrorist threat – a RED ALERT -- affecting California’s major urban areas.

Although the polls in California will not be closed as a result of the declaration, the panic that sets in and the early rush hour will clog major traffic arteries and change the plans of many voters to cast their ballot after work.

http://www.legitgov.org/essay_madsen_terrorism_and_california_071404.html

[Stand and Fight]

95. Thanks...

Thanks for posting that. I'd say more, but after all I am a "newbie" and veteran members just don't trust us. This sort of attitude makes me not want to come to the site at all. I almost regret my donations. I'd no idea that just because I don't take Madsen's claims at face value that others or myself would be slighted and dubbed a "newbie" or a Rovian tool.... Really disgusting.

See the post above to see what I'm talking about Gordon.

Seriously though, thanks.

[trumad]

99. Well I'm not a newbie and I don't trust the story...

I hope that makes you feel better. Please try to break through the mistrust of oldies but goldies here at DU... When we say we've seen it all, we really have seen it all. The repukes are nasty bastards and there aint no doubt that there are many here at DU tweaking us Dems. So if we seem to be a bit knee-jerk, well that's just the way it's got to be. Peace

[Stand and Fight]

100. Right.

Thanks for the response, trumad. But should someone go around attacking people without basing their arguments on sound research? I'm obviously a Democrat and a liberal. I don't like being accused of being anything that I am not -- I mean, I've had Rethugs accuse me of being unpatriotic and un-American. Now I am having fellow Democrats doing the same thing because I don't agree with them. How is that excusable in light that it is largely similar to "freeperism"? This is what the freepers do on their site, and I was under the impression that this site was better than that. That they were above "knee-jerk" reactions because DU promotes REASONABLE discussion. Reactions like the one I have seen in this thread and in others draws to mind creepy parallels to the freepers.

[trumad]

111. We are better than the freeps.

and quotes like yours: "I was under the impression that this site was better than that" are to simplistic in it's meaning. Everyone in politics suspects everyone.... no matter if it's the freeps or us. It's just the way it is... Now as far as ideology, we're light years better than the freeps. Quit comparing DU to the freepers and toughen up a bit.... Just because someone thinks you're a FREEP DOESN'T MEAN THE DU IS JUST LIKE THE FREEPS.

[Stand and Fight]

112. Riiiiiiiiiight n/t

[merh]

120. If it is my post that offended you, I do apologize.

If you don't like the topic of a thread or the discussion, then just ignore it and let it die a natural death.

As far as how tracking, following, discussing the Madsen story can harm us at DU, I am at a loss. :shrug:

Are they afraid we will be labeled conspiracy nutts? :tinfoilhat: Well, I have news for them, we already have that label and most of us don't mind or at best we accept it and live with it.

Are they afraid of conspiracy theories? Then, I am afraid they are in the wrong place and they mustn't go to the 9/11 forum and read how the towers were imploded by the gov, or how it was a missile that hit the pentagon, or how it wasn't the passenger planes that hit the towers but a cargo plane with bombs attacked.

There are the threads regarding JFK assassination and a hundred other theories and conspiracies, I could go on and on. That is the neat thing about DU, the discussions of what ifs or maybes. Sometimes there are links to support and sometimes not.

Skeptism of the Madsen story is legitimate, but I just find it so very curious that most of the naysayers are 1-50 post new posters, I think that is something to think about. :think:
Let's just say I am skeptical of newbies. :evilgrin:

[Stand and Fight]

124. Fair enough position

I understand and can identify with your position on the idea of newbies. I may not necessarily agree with it, but I have definitely read instances in which your concern is wholly justifiable. Given your most diplomatic and well thought out post, there are no hard feelings here on my side. Thanks for the response!

:)

[merh]

114. If that was Madsen that posted last night, he does respond

to your question. You may want to check the thread or the recaps of the thread.

[Pepper32]

142. Madsen can mention on his site he was at DU and that will prove it was him

Simple

[jamboi]

176. What site? I don't think Madsen has a web site. I can ask him to mention

the session. He said he's also about to post another article and I asked him to preannounce it here or by letting me know ahead of time, but of course I can't guarantee that will work out. Doesn't change the fact that Madsen joined us the other night. The speculation otherwise is silly.

[BlueCaliDem]

126. This Article was Written July 14, 2004...

...but my question is, was it posted on the internet in that time too? Or later?

The reason why I'm asking, is because, perhaps the Rove Team have found it; read it, and felt that to exercise it, would surely prove Madsen right, so perhaps they decided NOT to carry out the plan?

If that is true, Wayne Madsen deserves a medal of valor, imho.

On the other hand, days before the election, a now widely-accepted {on the DU, and other progressive forums} complicit television media aired an Osama bin Laden tape that should have reminded Americans of one of the MANY, if not, most important grave failures of this administration, and that we need to oust them (and maybe it had).

But as people went to the polls, they went with the complicit media's droning voices, and repeated images in the back of their minds, that the surfaced tape of bin Laden reminded us that we haven't caught bin Laden, and that "one doesn't change horses in the middle of a race".

They ultimately didn't "parade" bin Laden handcuffed and all out for the voters to see, but that tape was pretty close, and then brilliantly let fall here and there, that the Bush administration had "pleaded" {pleaded??!} with Al Jazeera not to air the tape until after the elections.

Well coordinated, if I say so myself <adjusting tin-foil hat securely on head>.

[Garbo 2004]

166. That article was speculation but detailed enough to make it look like

there was such a plan in place. Then it's easy for others to assert after the fact that publication of the speculative scenario (and that's all it was) made them change their plans.

But is Madsen's readership so huge and influential that it's likely that what apparently were his own musings and predictions would have in itself precluded anyone from going forward with such a plan if there indeed there was a plan?

Nothing stopped the war in Iraq from proceeding despite much more visible criticisms, questioning, debunking of the Bush admins claims, protests, etc. Even now there is still support for the war and Bush despite clear evidence that the reasons for the war given to the American public were bogus. Some people apparently still believe that WMD's were found in Iraq and that Saddam was behind Sept 11 despite evidence to the contray.

And such a red alert on election day and closing of the polls would have resulted in an outcry of intent to defraud the election without Madsen's article ever having being published or read anywhere. That it didn't happen cannot be viewed as confirmation of his predictions. Reading the article appears to only confirm that his completely speculative but detailed scenario was based on little other than his own imagination.

[BlueCaliDem]

174. Garbo 2004...However One Chooses to Look at Madsen's Piece...

...it's up to the reader to determine whether or not it had any credibility.

That article was speculation but detailed enough to make it look like there was such a plan in place. Then it's easy for others to assert after the fact that publication of the speculative scenario (and that's all it was) made them change their plans.

After having read that article--with tin-foil hat still atop my head--I can understand why you are speculating, that Madsen's piece was merely...speculation. :D

But do you know that for 100%?

Look, how can you be so sure, that the plans as Madsen outlined in his piece weren't true? That, at the last moment, the plans changed or otherwise they'd risk giving dangerous credibility to an ex-Reagan man, as even the most rapid right-wingers are still loathed to criticize any Reagan man--as they're loathed to criticize even Ronald Reagan's atheist, ultra liberal son?

Can you say conclusively this didn't happen? And if so, what proof do you have to back your conclusion?

But is Madsen's readership so huge and influential that it's likely that what apparently were his own musings and predictions would have in itself precluded anyone from going forward with such a plan if there indeed there was a plan?

Madsen's readership might not be so huge and influential in comparison with, say, the O'Reilly Factor (talk about a man who does nothing but "muse", and speculate as if his thoughts all were written in stone), but it doesn't take a huge readership to make his words, and information "influential", since it was, after all, posted on the World Wide Web where I'm sure Rove has Drudge-like minions spread all over monitoring anything remotely negative to Bush.

Think that smacks too much of a conspiracy theory? Well, I took the advice from another DUer here, and googled my DU screen-name--and sure enough! Two threads of mine appeared in the search.

You think Rove doesn't know about Wayne Madsen, then?

Nothing stopped the war in Iraq from proceeding despite much more visible criticisms, questioning, debunking of the Bush admins claims, protests, etc.

Because the war was crucial in MORE ways than one to the Bush& cronies crew, but also good for a president who needs a second term in office, and one that, who even if he doesn't get the votes, so his men set out to steal them, can always allude to Americans not wanting to change presidents in a time of war in order to silence any criticisms.

Protests or not, you underestimate the power of the complicit, Republican owned-and operated broadcast media where Americans get 84% of their news, and that had lead, built, and supported, if not fed, the lies for a war from Bush's lips to Americans ears.

Even my Republican acquaintances didn't believe me, when I told them in December 2002 that Bush was planning to invade Iraq--based on writings from journalists like Madsen all over the internet--that he wasn't interested in finding any WMDs. They pooh-poohed me off...and are kind of stunned still, that I wasn't such a conspiracy theorist after all.

That it didn't happen cannot be viewed as confirmation of his predictions. Reading the article appears to only confirm that his completely speculative but detailed scenario was based on little other than his own imagination.

Hopefully you recognize that the above too, is little more than speculation as well?

As for me? After the RW Repubs stole the 2000 election, I have less trouble believing they'd be so hard pressed in planning things that just don't stand in the light of day.

To be less distrustful, after all we've heard, read and seen from this administration, is just idiocy.

But that's just my speculative imagination. :)

[Garbo 2004]

175. He proposed a scenario; didn't cite "informed sources" as he does

in other articles. That lead me to conclude his scenario was speculative.

But if one wants to believe that the fact the scenario didn't occur is proof in itself that the article was based on factual knowledge rather than speculation, then it's a matter of faith, not evidence.

And certainly by December 2002 one didn't need Madsen to figure that Bush was intent on invading Iraq, the propaganda campaign evident in the mainstream media certainly already supported that contention. All one had to do is note Bush's State of the Union speech, the passage of the Iraq resolution and the PR machine at work through the MSM. Thus I too predicted that Bush was going to invade, the UN gambit was a PR move and regardless of the outcome the invasion would occur. The footprints were so evident one didn't to be an investigative journalist with "informed sources" to see how that was going to turn out.

I also recall the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution so when the Iraq Resolution passed Congress, that was all Bush needed. Given the precedent of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, the Iraq Resolution should have been the tip off. How Kerry could have voted for it, knowing history, is another matter. It wasn't a blank check but Bush would use it as if it were.

Even so, at that time one could only claim such a prediction was speculation based on reading where the footprints were headed. Which essentially is what Madsen appeared to have done in the article in question.

[Ducks In A Row]

103. no tinfoil in my closet. I think it's a strong story

he's working it smart. he has the example of what rove did to rather to help him from making mistakes that rove and the freepers can use to fuck things up.

why not sit back and watch it unfold, refrain from doing the work of rove, see where it all leads.

so what if it does turn out to be nothing (not that I believe that's what will happen). it won't hurt things anymore than it's been.

[mdb]

104. As far as credibility goes, he seems credible.

This is unfolding as we speak. It is taking time. I understand from Madsen the "how it was done" from the technicians view point as far as the fraud is not in yet. I think once we see this info it will shed more light on how credible this all is. The "how" is very important as it will hopefully help to determine whether the technicians had the technical know-how.

[me b zola]

128. We should consider

the possibility that he is part of bushco, putting out misinformation in an attempt to throw us off the trail and make us look like conspiracy freaks. I'm trying to keep an open mind about Madsen, for for now I'm rather suspicious of him.

[intelle]

129. I would liket to believe

I read through all the Casolaro posts last night, and, while I really want to believe, I have some reservations. I noticed that Madsen did not respond to some very apropos questions (Eloriel was one who asked some very important questions). And, the information he gave was vague. I understand that some things need to be vague, but, Madsen might have indicated at least where else in the US there had been poll lockdowns besides Warren Ohio..he was asked this twice and he did not answer this one. This, despite the fact that he mentioned that there were several places in the US that this happened on Pacifica.

So, I remain skeptical and hope he can bring more substance to his future posts.

BTW, I am growing weary of the mistrust that older members are throwing at the so-called newbies at DU. I have noticed that some posters with 1000+ posts are really fairly new..it IS pretty easy to do a lot of "kicking" and "bumping" to get one's post count up there. I have been suspicious of some "older" posters, but I haven't generalized this to all "older" posters. Seems to me that newbies should have the same courtesy...after all, in a court of law, one is presumed innocent. I would like to see this same mentality be extended to newbies.

I have seen freeper activity, for sure. But, this, as far as I can see, is the exception rather than the rule. I for one do not think that longevity on DU makes one more worthy of trust than his or her newer counterparts.

:eyes:

[sabra]

133. Great post, and I agree! n/t

[Alizaryn]

135. I hear you

I would very much like to be able to relax and accept everything he is saying but as I have learned the hard way remaining objective is the best way to be.
I would have been more comfortable if he had answered 2 of my questions last night they were:

1.) Was there a way that he could verify that he was "the" Wayne Madsen?
2.) He said that protecting his source was a priority and that the source would be in danger if revealed, well I asked whether him promoting having a copy of a check would enable those he feared to uncover the sources identity. (I would think it would at least give the bad guys a clue?)

So at this point, I am remaining open and listening (I don't think that hurts anything) but am not ready to totally accept the whole thing, but wish I could.

[AtLiberty]

136. The Madsen story is not more bizarre than...

...the Bushies airlifting members of the bin Laden family out of the country immediately following 9-11. And who would believe that James Baker's law firm would defend members of the Saudi royal family from the greedy family members of 9-11 victims?

Headline news on Yahoo right now is that the Ukraine's Yushchenko was probably deliberately poisoned several months ago.

Surreal.

[Junkdrawer]

138. My, my. What an effort to sell this story...

To me, that is the most suspicious thing about this story.

[Minstrel Boy]

140. And to me, the effort expended denying its worth

and assassinating Madsen's character says much more.

[Ladyhawk]

144. It doesn't smell right to me.

Since when does the BFEE pay someone with a check???? I mean, they could have wired the money, even sent someone with a briefcase full of cash.

This story doesn't pass my bullshit detector.

[jamboi]

146. REPLY E-MAIL FROM MADSEN 4 THOSE UNSURE THAT WAS HIM LAST NITE

In a message dated 11/29/2004 12:08:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, jamboi writes:
"Is there a good way for you to confirm to hard core skeptics that it
was really you on DU last night? Some doubting Thomases need some more
proof that Casolaro is one and the same as Wayne Madsen."

Yes, .... they can go to www.fromthewilderness.com or www.copvcia.com and see a teaser on my article about what happened to the Kennedy grave site on this past Nov. 22. The Cemetery officials closed off all direct access routes to it.

BTW, This story is going deeper into the rabbit hole...there will soon be some official denials and a major effort to debunk the story. Some people are getting worried.

wayne

[Stand and Fight]

147. Thanks!

Thanks for the update jamboi, you're great!

[Left Brain]

150. Randi Rhodes

There was some talk of Mr. Madsen contacting Randi Rhodes. Has anything come of this? If so, would someone post as I would be very interested in hearing Randi's perspective.

[Alizaryn]

151. E-MAIL confirmation

Jamboi...I sincerely appreciate your involvement and support with this whole issue. Please don't get upset at those of us who feel a need to ask questions like these, its not an attack on you or the information. In my case, its one thing to PERSONALLY believe or not believe something but another if want to spread the information further. This requires me to cover all the bases, I honestly think Wayne would completely understand. Keep up the effort!

[jamboi]

156. Sure, I agree. Madsen had to pass my minimal threshold test to before I

would suggest we should investigate his allegations. And everyone has to do that for themselves. I just thought some of this was quite over the top silly. I guess when we've been kept in the dark and feed manure continuously we might feel like mushrooms after a while -- either that or end up highly cynical. Anyway, I'm not saying that every word from WM's mouth is golden, I just think it bears further investigation.

[Alizaryn]

159. Agreed

Thanks again Jamboi.

[merh]

153. What are those stories, I am not a subscriber?

please advise. Thanks

[jamboi]

161. I guess that we'll need a subscriber to read them for us. Its PPV. n/t

[trumad]

154. What's the teaser?

[jamboi]

157. Good question, not sure. Well, I'll e-mail him again... n/t

[jamboi]

160. Explanation from WM of "teaser"

jamboi writes:

Someone from DU asked what the "teaser" on the article that you
mentioned earlier was and I didn't know the answer. Could you
explain that?

Its a pay for view site -- they put a blurb on it about the JFK article. They have to pay to read it.

[Garbo 2004]

168. I don't understand how a previously posted article "proves" he posted

here.

I don't see why he wouldn't post here so I'm not demanding "proof." But I fail to see how the link to a previously published article which one must pay to read provides substantiation that he posted here. At $50 annual online subscription that may boost the site's revenue, but I don't see how this is a relevant repsonse to the question. If he's providing info contained in the article, anyone with a subcription could provide that info if it's contained in the article.

[Karmadillo]

177. I'm Bill Gates. Need proof? Go to the Microsoft website and

download the latest version of the Windows Media Player. FOR FREE!!!

[Garbo 2004]

179. So Bill, fix IE, wouldya? Using primarily Opera here until you do. ;)

I go by Madsen's published work. So frankly for me it's not such a big issue whether he indeed posted here or not. It's not intrinsically improbable that if summoned that he would post here. But absent DNA testing, I suppose it's open to question. ;)

[jamboi]

158. MORE E-MAIL FROM WM

--- WMadsen wrote:

jamboi writes:

Do you think you'll want to do another
Q&A soon? Do you have any more updates on their way?

Yes, the Bushes appear to be circling the wagons -- they've noticed the articles for sure -- the rabbit hole is getting deeper but parts are also closing! I will have more coming out tonight or early tomorrow.

wm

[Generator]

162. I don't know what to think

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Read everything, question all, trust my gut.

Hey Trumad! I thought you hadn't been around since about November 2nd.

Strange days indeed.

[jamboi]

163. I think its too early to really judge. We just don't know enough yet. But

we can at least listen w/ an open mind and verify/test his allegations and see how they stack up.

[troubleinwinter]

164. trumad, I am one having a hard time with it.

I was neutral with the first article, skeptical with the second, and quite disappointed with the Q & A.

I am disturbed by the "check" through a "financial institution" linked (by Canadian authorities) to Nigerian scam. How on earth would he get a copy of the check, I wonder to myself.

I am disturbed that Madsen refers to "the kerry people"... but not a name. Hey, you could refer to any of 59 million Americans as "kerry people".

I am disturbed that everyone here just looooved Olberman, until he seemed somewhat dismissive of Madsen's story.

I don't see the statement that there will "soon be official denials" as meaningful.

The jury is out, there are plenty of people here that are into it, following it, but I remain skeptical.

[Alizaryn]

170. Olbermann

I was upset at his condescending tone when being asked if he had spoken with Olbermann also. I tried to politely communicate that to him and suggest he make an attempt to speak with him. Olbermann's blog was in response to the first article and though he was doubtful he explained what his questions were and left a window open to the possibility of there being truth to the story.

I might have been a bit defensive but Keith Olbermann has really taken chances and kept us hopeful through this and deserves out respect.

[mackdaddy]

165. What we Don't Know

I think I get the big picture: Daddy Bush and his dirty dozen (eight? ie octopus) paying big bucks to finance a scheme to have Brazilian programmers write patches/viruses to create fraudulent elections results, and used fake or evil FBI/Homeland Security to create a security "event" to let technicians (many foreigners) get access to the voting equipment or tabulators or ballots themselves and do something nefarious which skewed the election. A copy of the check which was the source money for the suitcases of cash to pay for the dirty scheme is in hand. The sources for the story are being protected for their own safety. We have a list of several states this scheme generally was likely to have affected.

I know this is an in-progress story/investigation, but we need some more specific information before it all hangs together.

What exactly was the mechanism to take away Kerry votes and give them to Bush? Stuffing extra Ballots?, "Two for me, one for you" reprogramming of DRE, scanners, or Tabulators? Installation of remote control worms in tabulators or voting machines? or all of the above.

How the bad guys technicians got access to do the dirty deeds. How long did it take? Reprogramming thousands of voting machines could be a huge job. Going to 88 counties in Ohio in itself is a big job. Just getting the modem numbers for 88 counties tabulators could take some time.

Where specifically did this corruption of the systems take place. We know of one place, Hamilton county which had questionable activity in its press lock down.

What is the command and control of this operation like. How was it all co-ordinated? Who was the mastermind, the paymaster, etc.

What would be the "fingerprints" we should look for to prove the tampering was done. What could be done to get the real vote tallies?

I will feel a lot better when a few more of the loose ends are tied off. Skeptical, but open minded and interested in Ohio.

[DemonFighterLives]

169. Welcome to all newbies!

I for one will go out on the limb. Hearing from Casolaro last night was very exiting. It was the first positive information we've had about the "election". I can clearly see where the B*shco fingerprints are all over this deception. Lot's of cash (check), impersonators, bomb scares IOW, whatever it takes.

I for one am glad that he is not giving out names and such.
I also have some suspicions that the "Kerry camp" does not want to know about all of this. Why else would John fold his tent so quickly and put his 45 million away for a rainy day? Anyone pushing this info. is in serious danger. Maybe I just feel a need to believe and this is speaking my language.

[ailsagirl]

171. I have to say that truth is stranger than fiction and

I bet anything we may have discovered is only the tip of the iceberg, which I find truly chilling. (no pun intended)

[jamboi]

178. Madsen DU Q&A compilation posted on DUer's web site! Link

http://www.legjoints.com/WayneMadsen

Thanks to Roger_Otip!!!