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MUST READ: Final Tallies Minus Exit Polls = A Statistical Mystery!

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:13 PM
Original message
MUST READ: Final Tallies Minus Exit Polls = A Statistical Mystery!
Edited on Tue Nov-30-04 12:44 PM by TruthIsAll
I hope this article from a famous mathematician satisfies the naysayers and trolls who have tried like hell (unsuccessfully, I might add) to debunk Professor Freeman's analysis - and my own.

Here is my latest probability posting for easy reference:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x86863

And here is the article from Mr. Paulos:
http://www.math.temple.edu/~paulos/exit.html

Final Tallies Minus Exit Polls = A Statistical Mystery!
by John Allen Paulos
OpEd in the Philadelphia Inquirer, Nov. 24, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did the exit polls taken on election day in the battleground states differ so starkly from the final tallies in those states? As my crosstown colleague, Steven Freeman of the University of Pennsylvania has demonstrated in his paper, "The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancy," the pattern is unmistakable. In Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida, the differences between Bush's final tallies and his earlier exit poll percentages were, respectively, 6.7%, 6.5%, and 4.9%.

Similarly huge differences between the final tallies and the exit poll percentages occurred in 10 of the 11 battleground states, all of them in Bush's favor. If the people sampled in the exit polls were a random sample of voters, Freeman's standard statistical techniques show that these large discrepancies are way, way beyond the margins of error. Suffice it to say that the odds against them occuring by chance in just the three states mentioned above are almost a million to one.

Since exit polls historically have been quite accurate (there is no question about likely voters, for example) and the differences as likely to have been in one candidate's favor as the other's, we're confronted with the question of what caused them. Given the indefensible withholding of the full exit poll data by Edison Media Research, Mitofsky International, the Associated Press and various networks, we can only hazard guesses based on what was available election night. The obvious speculation, alluded to above, is that the exit samples were decidedly non-random.

snip

Absent any proof or compelling reasons for the differences between the final tallies and the exit polls in the swing states, I don't understand why these gross discrepancies are being so widely shrugged off. After all, the procuring of random samples is far more of a problem for ordinary telephone polls where the minority of people who cooperate with pollsters presumably differs in some way from the majority who don't. Still, these polls are not dismissed with the same impatient nonchalance as this year's exit polls.

Of course, what makes these discrepancies more than a technical problem in statistical methodology is that there is a much less likely, much more ominous explanation for them: massive fraud. Fraud is hard to believe for many reasons, one being the widespread nature, extending over different states and regions, of the shift to Bush. The difficulty of concealing a conspiracy grows very rapidly with the number of conspirators.

snip

Hard evidence? Definitely not. Nevertheless, the present system is such a creaky patchwork and angry suspicions are so prevalent that there is, despite the popular vote differential, a fear that the election was tainted and possibly stolen. (If 68,000 Ohio Bush supporters - only about a half dozen voters per precinct in the state - switched their votes, Kerry would be president-elect. Considerably fewer switches would be required if, as is likely, most provisional and spoiled ballots were good and went for Kerry.) A high-level commission should thoroughly examine the exit poll discrepancies and our electoral apparatus in general.

This is not a partisan issue. People differ about whom they want in the White House, but almost everybody wants whoever is there to be seen by all as having been rightfully elected.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Professor of mathematics at Temple University and winner of the 2003 American Association for the Advancement of Science award for the promotion of public understanding of science, John Allen Paulos is the author of several best-selling books, including Innumeracy and A Mathematician Plays the Stock Market.

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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. "I don't understand why these gross discrepancies are being so widely
shrugged off."

Me neither. Can we get another famous person to explain that one?
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Cowboy Joe2k Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Kick this it's our only chance!
you tyrant, your lucky if we the Americn population let you get away with this.

Dont try any of this terrorist crap we know who its coming from and all there is is hate death and destruction coming from you lower the light to Green you Shrub, or your wrking the checkin counter on the Moon stupid.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. In Academic Speak - This Is Equivalent To "Houston We Have A Problem"
eom
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. 'Given the indefensible withholding...'
...of the full exit poll data by Edison Media Research, Mitofsky International, the Associated Press and various networks, we can only hazard guesses based on what was available election night. The obvious speculation, alluded to above, is that the exit samples were decidedly non-random.

Maybe we're wasting our time marching on state capitals...we should be marching en masse on the HQs of AP, Mitofsky, et al, and make them come forward with their raw data. Let a consortium of renowned statisticians look at the data and come to their own conclusions.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Can the FOIA be used in cases like this?...or does only address
info from government???...I should know but I don't.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I'm thinking probably not
Most exit polling is done by privately owned companies and they don't have to supply information to citizens. That is why they're privatizing everything, no oversight, no accountability, no transparency.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I think, sadly, that you are correct.
Edited on Tue Nov-30-04 02:21 PM by Spiffarino
That doesn't mean we can't hold their feet to the fire. It would be very inconvenient for them to have a couple thousand shouting protesters hanging around all hours of the day and night.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. An excellent article for the "average reader." Has this been sent
anywhere? I notice it's from November 24th and don't know if our DU Media workers saw it. I can send it, but don't want to do it if others have E-Mail blasted it already. :shrug:
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. BuzzFlash also posted it
Hard to tell where it went from there. It sure caught my eye when I read it. I included a reference to him in an email to Keith O., and some other editorialists.

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. KoKo, please send it. n/t
.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Will do! (n/t)
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Please blast it out - I failed to catch this one - :-(
:-(

thanks

:-)
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. This always gets to me:
"Another possible explanation for the discrepancy between the final tallies and the exit polls is that a fraction of the Bush voters were ashamed of their vote for him and lied to or avoided the exit pollsters"


I don't think the fundies feel shame...they don't think he's done anything wrong so why would they be ashamed of voting for him?
So the only possible explanation besides fraud is that the Christian right like to lie and manipulate (to make it look like Kerry won???)or they're too shy.

RIGHT! When was the last time you saw a Rightey that was afraid to say they were in love with Bush? SHY? Are you kidding me? This group is all about control and intimidation they aren't afraid. They aren't about to make it look like Kerry won at ANY time!

Also if this were the case wouldn't that trend of Bush voters lying to or evading polls have shown up in the pre-election polling as well?

That doesn't make any sense.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. agreed
Shy they are most definitely not. I even live in a blue state and Bush voters sang it loud and proud that they were voting for Shrub. I've noticed the same thing for years with fundamentalists and conservative reactionaries in general--even when you meet them for the first time they just come right out with what they think, absolutely unapologetic and in your face about it, because they've been conditioned by Rush Limbaugh et al to be that way, whereas until recently we didn't have a media outlet teaching us to be like "We're here, we're liberal, get used to it!"
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keepthemhonest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. they are not shy at all
they wear their Bush signs all over the place around here(georgia)
I have to resist running my vehicle right into them
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MikeDuffy Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. One in 1024?
Isn't the probability of flipping a coin heads 10 times in a row 1 in 1024 (1/2^10) rather than 1 in 256?
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TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kick n/t
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. I nominated this for the Home Page because it's such a good article that
anyone can understand about why we should question this election. It's written for those whose eyes "glaze over" with statistics, but get's the points home. I hope others will nominate it.
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truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
18. kick
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. Another kick here...
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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for continuing to feed us with provocative analyses n/t
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reality_bites Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. Your famous mathematician...
...debunks you himself. He at least is more careful than you and Freeman.

"If the people sampled in the exit polls were a random sample of voters, Freeman's standard statistical techniques show that these large discrepancies are way, way beyond the margins of error"

Exit polls respondents are not a random sample. Never have been and never will be.
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