Dems feeling defenseless against GOP? Time to scrap Democratic Party?

[ElementaryPenguin]

Yesterday, a DU poster shared with us a response they had received from Democratic Congressman Barney Frank (whom I admire) - in which Frank seemed to be implying that while he and his Democratic colleagues were quite aware of the voting "irregularities" (a.k.a. the Republican Party had rigged the Presidential election) there was in fact nothing they could really do - they were virtually powerless to confront these treasonous criminals - because the GOP now controls every branch of the federal government.

It evidently hasn't occurred to Mr. Frank & Company (including Sen. John Kerry) that instead of simply laying down their arms and accepting - or "conceding" this defeat - a defeat that may well spell the END of democracy in America (the world's most celebrated democracy) - they should, instead, attempt to LEAD a Ukrainian style public revolt - rather than simply watch supremely dedicated, but ultimately out-manned patriots like Bev Harris, do their best to mount serious legal challenges.

So if the GOP can't get a fight out of the Dems when they've enacted a system that guarantees that all Dems will be illegally defeated at the polls - then what's next? If the GOP decide to actually start killing off the Democrats on the hill one by one - will the Dems still be "powerless" to stop them? (I won't even go there.)

Simply put, if the Democrat Party is absolutely unable or unwilling to fight to protect this nation and its constitution from a ruthless, Nazi-like mob of Right Wing Neoconservatives that has now - by way of an election coup - captured control of our government and military - then what use are they to anyone in America? What choice do we have but to scrap this party now - and put some serious resources behind a new progressive, but inclusive party (a party that should seek to include the growing group of discontented moderates among those who consider themselves Republicans). Call us the Constitutionalists - or whatever you want to call it - no matter who leads it initially, we'll have no less clout at this point than the Democratic party (just less money, for awhile.) This party may well attract many independents and pseudo Repukes, who simply vote that way because they've been programmed for generations to hate Democrats. A move such as this would also be more in keeping with the intent of the founding fathers - who were generally opposed to the consolidation of too much power into any specific political parties, fearing that partisan allegiances to these parties could in time become even stronger than the allegiances to the nation itself. Partisanship in America today has now reached the level of flat out TREASON! ENOUGH! Perhaps it's time we realized that in order to survive - we may really need to SECEDE - and build a leaner, meaner opposition party!

This is OUR country, folks - not The Bushevik's, and not the Democratic Party's - it's threatened like it's never been threatened before - and we've got to come up with any way we can to save it! Wouldn't you have loved to see the ideas of the DU, implemented for real by the DNC? We can kick the crap out of Rove and his telegraphing Neanderthals - just on ingenuity alone.

[Warpy]

1. Not giving them an organized enemy to focus on will

cause them to turn inward and do what the extreme right always does, feed on their own as they try to purify their ideological message through party purges. It's already starting at government agencies like the CIA and State Department.

As for scrapping the Democratic Party, I'd be all for it if the Greens would hammer out some sort of coalition party with all the other little progressive splinter parties out there. While the DLC holds power and keeps forcing the party to the right, there is not much reason to vote for them.

[ElementaryPenguin]

3. Good post, W.

I agree.

[Mirwib]

60. There will not be a viable third party in this country in my lifetime

There is no way to scrap the democratic party. You may change it, but the system is set up to keep any third parties out of the system.

[ElementaryPenguin]

61. Hey, I've seen lots of things in the last 4 years that I never expected to

See in my lifetime! Just stick around, you might see plenty more.

[Mirwib]

65. The system is set up against third parties

From gerrymandering to winner-take-all districts, the system strives to keep third parties out. The strongest third party that I expect to see is the Reform party; it, however, never got beyond a governorship and maybe a congressman or two.

[ElementaryPenguin]

67. The Republican Party was a third party, once upon a time...

[ClassWarrior]

68. And we can turn them into one again if we unite in the Dem party.

NGU.

[Laelth]

69. Agreed, and it was the more liberal party at the time.

This may just be the American political pattern. The Whig party was failing, and the Democrats (then conservative) were dominant. The Republican party rose from the ashes of the Whig party and seized the government in the person of Abraham Lincoln.

Perhaps 2004 was 1856 again? Perhaps 2008 will be 1860? Or, perhaps we'll have one-party fascist rule for another 100 years, regardless of what we do (if we even last that long). It's up to us, really, but I think it's a good idea to consider our options.

-Laelth

[ElementaryPenguin]

70. How times change, uh? Repukes - once the party of the people

Yet it's all so cyclical.

[Mirwib]

79. The Republicans were a third party 150 +- years ago

That is a long time to go with only two major parties.

There are other third parties since then, but they make impacts for short amounts of time and then disappear.

[jamboi]

50. I agree that coalition w/ Greens and other progressives is the way to go.

I think that needs to happen also within the Dem party in an explicit, outwardly evident way. Its already true largely inside the party in a quiet, behind the scenes sor of way. I think it would help to make it a public and well-known fact. "Look at us, we are the big tent that embraces people, all people. A diversity of people." I think the Dems should embrace a healthy form of populism and be the party for the people. (Spoken by a Green :-) )

[ElementaryPenguin]

55. I think you're on the right track as forming a party of true populists.

The Greens have something cool happening, but is it a big enough movement to forego building a whole new party from scratch, with a whole clean slate? Not sure.

:shrug:

[ClassWarrior]

57. I think Greens should infiltrate the Dem party.

The only way to change the party is for you and me to change the party.

NGU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Barney Franks gave you teh path to take

when there is no legal recourse left
When there is no use for petitions...

Well you know the drill

It is called the Declaration of indcependence

He just told us, folks it is up to the people... it has always been up to the people

So tell me, what have you done to educate others?

DON'T wait for leaders, you are that leader. SO god damit, LEAD...

[ElementaryPenguin]

6. You're absolutely right.

So I ask. What do we need the Democratic Party for? Can't we do better?

[ClassWarrior]

14. You missed the point. We ARE the Democratic Party. If it's useless...

...it's because WE'RE useless. And if it's strong, it's because WE'RE strong. For which office do YOU plan to run?

NGU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. There are several tacks to take in this fight

1.- Civil Disobedience

2.- Taking over LOCAL PRECINCTs for the party

3.- Running for local offices and taking over

All that you do, from now on, must be made to emphasize, governments derive their consent from the governed and all of this tacks must be followed

Some must run for dog catcher, others must spread literature, still others must take to the streets. There will come a time when all of us will have to take to the streeets

But running for office is not mutually exclusive from civil disobedience.

[ClassWarrior]

28. Not at all mutually exclusive!! I say all of the above!!

And I think you do too. But I also say it will be a long, hard slog. We can never forget that it took the Radical RW 30 years to slither under the skin of our politics. We need to start with Progressive dog catchers... and Progressive talking points... and lots of little, positive Progressive efforts that won't be slam-bang-instant like EP and so many other seem to want.

It will get ugly. But we HAVE to be steadfast. Because we're RIGHT.

And why blow up a perfectly good party structure when it'd be so much easier just to infiltrate it and take it over from bozos like the DLC?...

:evilgrin:

NGU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. read post # 30 I think you will like it

:-)

[ClassWarrior]

33. I did!! I do!!

:toast:

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

53. I haven't missed that point - I agree that's who we are. But sometimes

You have to fire the coach - simply because you can't fire the whole team. Your allegence to your country ought to be far stronger than it is to your political party, and I'm assuming it is. We need a makeover - including a name change. But the makeover can't be strictly cosmetic - for we are in dire need of some fundamental changes - many of which are often discussed here at DU. You will survive calling yourself something other than a Democrat.

[Eloriel]

15. The Dem Party is irrelevent now

They've made themselves that. One day they might wake up and figure it out, but we certainly can't wait for that nor can we afford to waste any more time or energy on trying to GET them to listen.

And that reminds me of how utterly betrayed I felt when we worked SO hard to try to get just one Senator to stand up with the CBC, and then a bit later when we tred to get our good Dems in the Senate to not confirm Ashcroft. I've never worked so hard on anything as I worked on trying to prevent Ashcroft's nomination. I worked hard on trying to stop the war, but I worked harder to try to defeat Ashcroft's nomination.

None of them would listen. THEY WEREN'T LISTENING. I wrote to Zell Miller: I wish I had $10 or $50,000 so I could BUY your attention. I don't remember feeling quite so betrayed (and bereft) after that, but I do recall that it was one "betrayal" after another -- not listening, just not listening.

Well, if you can'te get their freaking attention, on ANYthing, what point is there to having them at all? What point is there to continuing to NOT get their attention?

We're on our own, as surely as the sky is blue. We are on our own. And we must start acting, because time's awastin' and we have none to lose. Many of us have seen the playbook, and its original came from the 1930s in a land not that far away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Hence why this afternoon I will be pounding the pavement with them

leaphlets again.

[ElementaryPenguin]

66. We ARE on our own. It's like a Twilight Zone episode - we've all been

Transported into Germany in the 30's. It's as if God were saying, "just in case you were wondering what it was like - how a thing like that could possibly happen..."

Now we KNOW!

:evilfrown:

[Twist_U_Up]

13. nice

[rabid_nerd]

4. They're powerless because noone's in the streets

It's not that they're rolling over, it's just that all they have to back them up are emails, faxes and phone calls. And fund raising on demand.

Money and bits and bytes.

Vaporware.

Where's the people?

Oh yeah, wasting 24/7 posting here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. hence why you and I need to lead

We are those leaders people are looking for

As is this afternoon I will go get some more leaphlets out there

[rabid_nerd]

9. I'm broke and tired and already have my feet deep in this stuff

I'm already a state level party weirdo and undefeated elected and opinionated Democrat who is very active on every level from Borough to national from being Streets Chairman in my town to already part of an 08 exploratory campaign and avidly crunching #'s when I'm awake.

But I've yet to see anything BEFORE the inauguration, and that's too late...

And my candidates will tell you, I can't organize people very well.. I'm a PR guy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Then use your skills

I will need somebody to do the layout for an underground paper

I will need somebody to make handouts, yes there are some on the web, but

I need somebody to start doign the branding we will need

I need you to think of a phrase or how to use the following

Regresive

Fraud coast to coast.

See what you can do is what I need you to do. I do not need you stand in the front, others among us can do that and will do that...

;-)

Organizing, and leadership, we all have a role

[ClassWarrior]

29. Branding Nad?? You hit my button...

I'm an ad guy. PM me.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

7. If the people aren't there -they should be leading people into the streets

There is a role for leadership.

[rabid_nerd]

10. There have been calls for people to hit the streets...

but noone's listening...

[ClassWarrior]

16. So what are you waiting for?

Are you working the list of contacts you made working 20 hours a week on the campaign?? I am.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

20. Thank you for never being shy about announcing your resume, CW!

I'm sincerely grateful to you. Try to keep in mind - this isn't about me vs. you - it's about if there's a future for the Democratic Party or not.

[ClassWarrior]

22. I never said it's about me vs. you...

I said it's about doing something! You seem to have a real passion and conviction about all this - yet you don't ever seem to offer any positive directions in which to channel that raw energy. BE the change you want to be, EP.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

11. I think I'd pick on the people wasting 24/7 watching the boob tube!

The DU, with its many activists of all varieties - is not the most appropriate place to accuse people of doing nothing. But you're right. Where ARE the people? Not in the streets because their TV's didn't tell them to go there.

:puke:

[Old and In the Way]

8. Great post EP.

I'm totally at loss to explain the collective lack of reaction from our Democratic leadership. I sent a fax to Kerry's office today suggesting a course of action that should be taken immediately. There are tangible things they can do other than shrugging their shoulders and crying in their teacups. Fact is, if they continue to do nothing, that will guarantee the loss of progressive politics for the unforeseeable future. They follow this path to certain destruction. I am in a wait and see mode. But, if they show us nothing over the coming weeks, I'm prepared to end my lifelong support for a Party that cannot muster the courage to stand for the majority of Americans.

Anyway, here is my fax to Kerry...so far, no response:

Honorable Senator John Kerry


Senator Kerry-

First, I want to thank you for your service and running an honorable campaign for President. I am not convinced that you did not, in fact, win the majority of the popular votes in this election. I, along with many other Democrats, are becoming quite concerned with the growing perception that our Party is failing to challenge the results. If this perception takes hold and things in this country continue to deteriorate, our Party may be permanently damaged.

I understand that it is impossible to take the fight through the Republican controlled corporate media. It is obvious to many of us that the broadcast media is complicit and vested in maintaining the status quo. Perhaps this election cycle is lost, but the larger question remains....how can we assure ourselves of the popular will of the American voter? We are driving ourselves collectively insane with the thought, "what if this election was stolen...again".

I know you will be a major force in the next Senate, but we need you to do more. We need you to lead a campaign that shows Democrats we are still a viable force to reckon with. Here's what I hope you will consider:

-------------------

Seems to me that a first comprehensive action by the Democratic Party needs to involve a national/local coordinated campaign to ask some fundemental questions of it's constituents. How to accomplish this?

How about sending a postcard to each registered Democratic voter in the country with the following questions:

(1) Who did you vote for?
(2) What Party were you enrolled in on 11/2/04?
(3) What is your most important domestic priority?
(4) What is your most important international priority?
(5) What changes and actions do you want Congressional Democrats to undertake, starting in January?

I'd make these questionnaires available to Republicans, too. I doubt we can expect any support from rabid Bush Republican supporters...but perhaps there are more than a few Kerry Republicans who are interested in knowing if their vote was counted properly in this election.

Coordinate the collection with Democratic notary publics and local activists to get this information back for collation, analysis, and publication.

We can no longer expect Republican corporate media or biased polling companies to deliver our message to/from the Democratic leadership. We need to pipeline our communication more directly so we can get our own answers and insight on this election.

Secret ballots and a criminal party that controls the machines to record the vote, the process to count it, and the media to announce it ; it's a recipe for a bloodless transition to a fascist, totalitarian country.

-------------------

This action can start in selected states/precincts and be scaled up as the results dictate.

I posted this at www.democraticunderground.com. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x89055) I believe that you are aware of this site as Chris Heinz and Elizabeth Edwards have both posted here. You have a ready legion of activists just waiting for you to give us direction to our growing frustration. I hope you can lead, either directly or indirectly, to make this happen. We (our Party) need to know if we have the right message and vision. If we lost, so be it...we have more work to do. If we won, then the 1st order of business is proving it irrefutably to ourselves and this administration.

Thank you for your consideration on this.

Sincerely,

[ElementaryPenguin]

12. Really great letter, Old and NOT in the way!

I may be wrong, but I've got a hunch that a new movement is going to take hold - a movement perhaps sprung from the DU! Seriously! We can make it happen - and I don't know who else can.

[Generator]

17. Well considering some of us are thinking of

scrapping the country for good, the least we can do is scrap the Democratic party.

Someone needs to catch a clue. It's time for hardball-and I don't mean the twisted show that pretends to be inside the beltway.

The DNC needs to be bled dry of all $$$. Maybe then they will wake up and smell the fascism that surrounds them.

[ElementaryPenguin]

18. It's hard to fight fascism with subtlety.

We need to be every bit as tough and nasty fighting for the constitution as they are fighting for evil!

[ClassWarrior]

19. Then infiltrate the hollow carcass of the party AND FIGHT!!

Quit whining AND DO SOMETHING!!!

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

21. YOU are the whiner on this thread!

Now kindly find another thread to torment.

[ClassWarrior]

23. So was the question in the title of your thread a rhetorical one?

Do you prefer to only get answers with which you're comfortable?

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

25. No. You're welcome to stay.

:toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. On civil disobedience and organization

Civil Disobedience has certain rules to it. First off, we must strive for PEACEFUL civil disobedience. If you cannot keep your temper down, stay home until you can

This means DO NOT start a confrontation

If you are asked to leave by the cops \rent a cops, do so

Now what you can do RIGHT NOW

Leaphlets, people are not taking to the streets because they have no idea something is wrong. We need to let them into the fraud story.

Demonstrations (those will take time, some are already occuring)

Seat in

Talking in front of local groups.

Talking to people yes engage them in the supermarket... ask probe, you will be surprsied.

LISTEN to people you would be surprised what people are thinking, they know something is wrong.

Leave "read literature" in laundromats, public transportation, et al

Now on orgazining


On Organizing

"Let nobody fool you, all the loud noises we hear today are nothing but the death groans of a dying system. The old order is passing away, the new order is coming into being. But whenever there is anything new there are new responsibilities. As we think of this coming new world we must think of the challenge that we confront and the new responsibilities before us."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
August 11th, 1956

We are those new leaders in a new day.

Now what is our organizing principle? What is the goal that you are I are willing to sacrifice all, yes even our lives, for?

I say the organizing principle is Democracy... it is to rescue this Republic from the Fascists who now control it. But you need to cut this into bytes that can be used and explained. If you say democracy people will look at you... weird... after all we have a democracy... didn't you get the memo?

Moreover, you are to use history as a guide, we have been here before. Yet our present condition is different from the condition that faced MLK. We are now living in a police state.

So first things first, do not loose HOPE. If you hope, then they win.

Here are the things that all of you must do locally.

1.- Create Action Committees. Each committee must have an organizing principle voted in by the organization. Yes we want a democracy back, you need to do this democratically.

Remember:

The only true responsible consensus will emerge from the grassroots

Every alliance must be considered on its own merits (Yes look for the support of TRUE conservatives and Libertarians)

True alliances are based on self interest for both groups, and some common elements (Libertarians and US want to protect civil rights, true conservatives and us believe in budgetary discipline)

When one person stands up, he will be run out of town, when a thousand stand up... the situation is wholly altered.

Laws only declare rights, they do not deliver them. Yes you will have to fight for them and stand for them.

Remember the words of MLK on this.

"There comes a time when one must take the position that is neither safe nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because his conscience tells him it is right."

Martin Luther King

And the time for us to take positions that are neither safe or politic or popular is now.

The authority of government derives from the consent of the governed, yet we recognize that this authority is now a sham. The President and his men did not win this contest in any fair fashion. Moreover, this context has left us with no avenues for redress. We can petition, we can march and we can demonstrate, but now we must consider that our actions will not be politic, nor popular or safe. This is now our conscience that demands we act.

So what ARE YOU going to do now?

It is now the moment of decision...

[ClassWarrior]

32. I've been wanting to take CD training, as do some friends...

It's a big step, but I'm getting there. And your point about PEACEFUL protest is well taken. As my latest hero, George Lakoff (see picture at left), says in his newest book, "Remember that the radical right requires a culture war, and shouting is the discourse form of that culture war ... You win a victory when the discourse turns civil. The win when they get you to shout."

NGU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Got my paws on Ghandi's and MLK writings, as well as

Walden David thouraeu, and speakling of branding... we need to make Jefferson chic once again.. as well as learnign and Enlightenment and science

;-)

[oneold1-4u]

72. Finally Jefferson returned

There's still many Jefferson Dems. out there. they were disenfranchised from the party somewhat for being too honest.
Bring them back for cleaning house and those who "can't take the heat can get out of the kitchen"! (Pres. Truman)

[newyawker99]

84. Hi oneold1-4u!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ElementaryPenguin]

42. Excellent post!

:yourock:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Not gonna flame you

just gonna ask two questions ....

DO you think hte democrat, ANY democrat got a fair shake from the Media and the Republican Noise Machine

Do you think that vote fraud did not occur from coast to coast?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. oh this makes Tammary Hall looks

like a bunch of boy scouts on a field outing... when the history of this is finally exposed you may understand how massive

by the way, you think it is ok since it happens every four years, right? this is what you are telling me, RIGHT?

[maseman]

40. Dems have it all wrong with marketing

I have been in the media for 15 years. Primarily radio. The Dems try to typically match Republicans on spending money on the TV. TV is VERY expensive advertising and does not work well compared to radio. Do you realize that in Cleveland it can easily cost upward of $5,000 to air ONE TV commerical during prime time? You could run 15 radio ads on the top radio station in Cleveland for the same price...

But the Dems don't do it. Dems are the working class people. The service workers, the second and third shifters, the younger people, etc. These are the people who are most effected by radio as a personable medium.

Why don't they listen to this? Who can I talk to to discuss this? The Republicans used deep research this year to reach specific types of people with marketing. I work with the research they use. We need the dems to be able to use it to their advantage.

[ClassWarrior]

41. Good. The party needs to HEAR this... Join your local county Dem party!!

Educate them!! The only reason they don't know is because no one with their ear is telling them!!

NGU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Ok , ok you two

I just now how to do some muckracking and get people off their doofs on a board

I need help wiht branding... and we need brandign that will work both in Cali as in oh Cleveland, and the east coat and the south.

First things first, lets brand the other side, our friends the Dominionists... we all know REGRESIVE works.

Now we can also use Fraud coast to coast... it is good...

But we need far more and we need to capture the language in a way that joe six pack will GET IT.

Cheap Labor conservative, though good and truthful, runs a tad contrary to the regresive mantra, and they are regresives.

:-)

[ElementaryPenguin]

52. Need to give this a good deal of thought.

We really do need a catchy way to desribe them.

[ElementaryPenguin]

43. We do have to counter the Right's radio advantage...

And make "CONservative" THE dirty word, rather than LIBERAL.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

47. Liberal's too dirty to fix. We're Progressive.

NGU.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

58. FDR and Adlai Stevenson were good liberals.

Good men, real leaders, our forebears. But we live in Progressive times. And they require Progressive solutions.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

51. You're probably right. Progressive works for me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Ok, we already are making inroads there

AAR and Ed Shultz are beating the righties on every market they are going head to head...

Now we need to do more than that... can we say PROGRESSIVE paper that also deals with labor and actually covers ahem, NEWS?

[KoKo]

73. Progressive is the way to go. "Liberal" as a word is so tarnished by the

Repugs...it will never be viewed with anything but laughter.

Progressive sounds good. It will take them awhile to deal with that one! In the meantime we can build on the ruins of the Old Democratic/Corporatist/Inbred/Inside the Beltway Party a new structure which works with Greens (I don't think many of us fit well with the Libertarians...but who knows)and former Naderites.

The alternative is dealing with Harry Reid, Joe Biden, Joe Lieberman, Zell Miller, Evan Bayh and a bunch of others who've been in DC TOO LONG! The only thing good to come out of this "selection" so far is that Tom Daschle went down. I don't care how many DU'ers loved that man....he ruined our party along with the McAuliff's, Shrum's and the rest of the hacks.

Throw them out...don't give money to the DNC/DLC but give money to any activists/environmental and progressive causes and actions.

I want to stay within the party if we can rebuild, though. Although I'm on a thin edge here. We have some great folks...it's just they've been drowned out by the hacks. Those are the folks we should support.

And, we should focus on our own counties and states to start. Because if we get good folks in there, then the rest takes care of itself. That's how the Repugs did it. Local and then on up....

I don't know...it's hard now not to be bitter and angry and feel used.
I hope I can move beyond that. Right now I'm hanging on to the re-count efforts as a start to get the voting situation repaired.

[ClassWarrior]

76. You are so, sooo right KoKo...

Why rebuild when the party's there waiting for us to take over? And we can do it. We just need to be diligent and patient.

NGU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

87. I hear you. With Repugs, negative connotations of the word "liberal" will

never disappear, anymore than their negativity toward the name Hillary Clinton. It's probably seeped into their DNA by now.

[newyawker99]

85. Hi maseman!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[chrisclub]

38. Democracy in US ended 4 years ago

when the Supreme court ruled to stop the count in Florida.

[ElementaryPenguin]

46. What ended it 4 years ago was the lack of public response to the theft

Shameful!

[KoKo]

74. "EP" back then we believed in the "System" that it would work! How did

we know the Supremes would turn on us? We didn't know what to do. It dragged out so long it was almost Christmas before it was over. Folks were stressed out with family obligations. You couldn't exactly drop everything and run to DC at the last minute. Folks did protest the Inauguration but most of us didn't know what had hit us. Everything we believed about laws in this country was shattered.

It's like now, after working four years to be left with THIS??? Many folks here are still in shock and unable to post. Others will never post again they are so disgusted. The rest of us are here trying to work this through in whatever way we can.

We threw everything at Bush...and what's happened? But, we are more organized and have all kinds of troops we didn't have then. We have Bev Harris and Hedda and Ida, the Green and Libertarian Parties and all the folks here who woke up Nov. 2nd and went to work here trying to do something about the vote even though they were in a daze. We have support somewhere. It's not just us who think the screaming Chimp is destroying the whole world...rearranging his toybox.

[Nordic]

78. Yeah the Dems have FOUR FRIKKIN YEARS to deal with this!

and they've done NOTHING. Nada. Jack shit.

[ElementaryPenguin]

80. There's no excuse for them not to have prepared for this! Bev Harris

Had us all alerted to the likelihood of this exact type of fraud. THEY KNEW - and seem to have done little to prepare for it, or if they did they decided to abandon it - and abandon all of us in the process! A truly ASTONISHING betrayal!

:puke:

[KoKo]

82. No....I wouldn't say it was an "astonishing betrayal." It was "business

as usual." That's how they saw it. And, oblivion as to how computers can be used for mischief or fraud...or just a lack of interest.

[newyawker99]

86. Hi chrisclub!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Cats Against Frist]

54. Step Number ONE: Be nicer to libertarians

I'm a left libertarian, and I get flak from Democrats all the time, without them being smart enough to know that there are anarchists, anarchosyndicalists, libertarian socialists, and mutualists. At worst, even most right-wing libertarians -- though groaningly -- would not begrudge the co-op, the union or the commune, if it were not coersed. Same with libertinism -- right-libertarians hate it, but most of them begrudgingly accept it.

Also, Libertarianism isn't LAWLESS -- I am an all-inclusive libertarian -- and though I personally support the co-op, the solidarity-strong union and the commune, I would also support the individual, the anarchocapitalist, and the company -- and if they were fair, I'd buy their products. If they weren't, I wouldn't.

You may not agree with, or understand libertarianism -- many think we're heartless (and some are) -- and "utopian" -- but let me ask -- is it any more unreasonable to ask someone to be good to others, and take responsibility for themselves, than to ask everyone to support a left-wing authoritarian government, or to suck up to Mammon Oil Jesus?

In the end -- you'd rather live with libertarians than the Christo-Corpo-Fascists of the GOP. One thing you can count on is that most mainstream libertarians -- left and right-leaning -- (not extreme libertarians) respect the Constitution -- and consider it the basis for governance, and wouldn't let it get trampled on by Bushler.

Of course -- many right-wing libertarians are too dumb to even know that Bush is a big-government, right-wing authoritarian. Trust me -- I've had to open a few eyes. A lot of right-wing libertarians are just GOPTARDS that don't want to pay taxes.

And libertarians agree with liberals on MANY, MANY things:

1. Civil liberties.
2. Returning native lands to Native Americans, and giving the Sierra Club, Audubon Society, etc., control over the national parks.
3. Strict penalties for taking away life, liberty or property, due to negligence, environmental pollution and theft.
4. Protection from right-wing authoritarianism.
5. "Getting Local," -- shopping and living and producing in smaller spheres, to encourage community.
6. Getting involved in local politics.
7. Ending corporate welfare, corporate and farm subsidy and bailout, stripping corporations of legal human status -- getting corporate money OUT of the government.
8. Peace and Security -- not pre-emption and empire.

There is a lot of common ground, between the two -- even the "capital L" libertarian party. Most of the things about which Democrats and Libertarians disagree, can still take place in libertarian society, only with more local control and more personal responsibility and community effort.

I'm not saying you have to agree -- but they're powerful allies against the Christo-Fascists.

[ElementaryPenguin]

56. Lots of good points there, Cats...

You folks are in as far as I'm concerned.

[ClassWarrior]

59. C'mon in. I'm ready to prove that Dem party truly is a big tent.

NGU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Yes Libertarians

and TRUE conservatives (yes there is a difference) are natural allies.

You are right, the problem is that most people are not aware that even some of their very liberal views are truly libertarian in nature... care to excahnge notes on the Patriot Act?

;-)

How about New Freedom Initiative?

[Lisabtrucking]

63. This is what we are fighting for.

Go down to bush won get over it, and watch it. This is what we are fighting for

[Lisabtrucking]

64. Here is the link for got it sry

http://www.notthistimegeorge.org/

[tonyblair]

71. Lloyd George & the Liberal Party

Britain had a 2 party system until the 1920s. The Labour Party was set up by, and as the political wing of, the trades unions; at least in theory, Blair is accountable to the ordinary trade unionist (to get his own way he usually raises the spectre of the Tories).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_(UK)#Liberal_decline

[wrate]

75. EP, you have the revolutionary vision and the passion. Don't let go of it!

n/t

[Nordic]

77. I am 1000% with you on this. People need to wake up and smell the coffee

WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE.

The Democratic Party has conceded their very existence to the GOP.

They serve absolutely no purpose in the big scheme of things any longer.

A new party can do no worse than the Democratic Party.

Yes, yes, yes, SO glad someone else is saying this besides me!

[ElementaryPenguin]

81. Right on, N. But 1000% ? Sounds like another voting irregularity!

:evilgrin:

[Nordic]

83. Hey, I'm just trying to overcompensate!

for the fraud on the other side.

What's a thousand percent here and there anyway?