The Ohio Recount must be a hand count

[ahyums]

I wrote about this in tonights Olberman thread but on reflection I really think it needs it's own thread.

I think the general mood here has got far too depressive considering what's been achieved. I think we're at something of an in between stage now waiting for certification in Ohio, but let's just remember that there will be a recount in Ohio, right now I think that's pretty much a certainty, and whatever Kerry's motives for joining the law suit, the fact that he did, at least ensures the count will happen. I think that alone is a huge achievement and something everyone involved can feel really proud about. If the various statistical studies about exit polls etc. are accurate then there is in my eyes a pretty decent chance that the result in Ohio could still change with a recount, I think that depends to a large degree however as to whether or not the count is a hand count.

I find it really incredible that given that many of the concerns from the first count reside in machine counting and tabulation that a second count will be made by machine, preventing that, it seems to me is pretty much the primary issue right now. The count or at bare minimum a large proportion of the count needs to be a hand count, otherwise how exactly is trust in the electoral system, the key intention for the count restored. I believe when contributions were made, they were made on the implicit understanding that the recount would be a hand count, it is absolutely vital that that should be fought for.

There has been so much energy and enthusiasm poured into this issue, which has truly been a wonderful sight to behold in many ways but it could be negated to an extent if this crucial issue of counting by hand is not addressed. A recount can be fair, a recount can be accurate and a recount can and will resolve this issue to a significant extent, but only if the majority of the counting and tabulation is done by hand.

[RaulVB]

1. "General mood too depressive"???

Who's mood is that???

[righteous1]

2. I tell you folks i have been pretty up lately

but today pissed me off royal

[pbartch]

9. What happened TODAY......to get you mad?

Did DEMS get some bad news?

[righteous1]

15. Several things, thanx for asking

but if i text the litany i'll depress everybody else. Suffice it to say i am getting the same feeling i did late election night, that it's very close to being over and nothing i can do to stop it

[ahyums]

3. just a feeling I'm getting

If I'm wrong I'll be delighted

[lonestarnot]

4. I would love to see this election overturned and want it overturned in the

worst way, but the bigger issue is democracy itself. I'm committed to a loooong enduring fight until I check off the planet! So why sweat the undertone of depression at this point in the game. We won't be able to take the next hill with attitudes such as the ones I read you describe.

[ahyums]

5. which attitude if I may ask?

[lonestarnot]

22. depressive mood...

When a person is depressed, they get lethargic, stay in bed, do nothing. It is a form of defeat. I will not be depressed. That's all I meant.

[ahyums]

24. ah I see what you mean,

if I'm understanding you right you're saying that if I'm worried about people being depressed now what's it going to be like when and if things really go bad, right?

[mary195149]

6. Does anyone know the problems with the Ohio votes?

I read so much on the problems with the different states that I am confused now on what we are looking at for Ohio. According to Olbermann, Kerry is now just under 120,000 votes less than Bush in Ohio. I assume they will be looking at the disenfranchised votes. People that left because of the long lines on election day won't help us. Is there any certain counties we should be focusing in most, of where they are expecting to find discrepancies? And what type of discrepancies?

[ahyums]

7. if by the the disenfranchised votes you mean the undervotes

I think the ones which comply with Ohio law should be counted. More generally I think the main driving force is the suspicion over the result based on exit polls and other statistical evidence and the belief that either the counting machines or the tabulators could have been tampered with, which a hand recount should pick up where there is a paper trail. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on the above.

[MarkusQ]

20. Yeah, it will help a lot

People that left because of the long lines on election day won't help us.

If the lines were too long as a direct result of actions taken by the head of one of the candidate's campaigns (and thus an authorized representative of the candidate), in clear violation of the law and of the US constitution...

AFAIK, if they were just caught stuffing the ballot boxes, that would only be a state-level crime, instead of a federal offense and a violation of the constitution, which this is.

--MarkusQ

[KaliTracy]

8. Problems with Ohio Vote

Tried to do this under your question, but it wouldn't let me.

Approximated 93,000 ballots were set aside because they were "spoiled" (extra holes in the card, or what have you).

Machine Disparity was Rampant -- and I would demand to know precinct by precint how many people voted, and how many machines were in each place -- I think that would tell lots.

Optical scan votes are generally put BACK through the machine -- I'm not sure why they can't hand count them, too, but they did that (put them back in machines) in Florida if my memory is correct.

For the provisional ballots, they say they've already checked and double checked the ballots, and sent/contacted people who were not valid (they are supposed to send a note to them or the ballot itself (??) if it is not counted).

There were many anomalies -- like the Warren County Stats (yes, the place where they had the lock down) Where in 2000 * got 69.95% of the vote and Gore got 27.71% with Independents getting collectively 2.34% of the vote, and in 2004 (with Massive democratic presence (Gore pulled out of Ohio in 2000) * got 72.06% Kerry got 27.58% and collectively the Independents got .35% of the vote ??? -- though Nadar *wasn't* on the ballot this time, and he was in 2000.

other things, too.... go to www.votersunite.org and look at Ohio

Tracy

edited for clarification.

"The important thing is to never stop Questioning." -- Einsein.

[mary195149]

10. Thanks for the info and the great link!! n/t

[Stevepol]

11. Hand Counts

They hand counted New Hampshire didn't they? The optical scan machines can be hand counted, in fact, have to be hand counted in order for the recount to be meaningful. If you put the votes back thru the machine it will count them exactly the same way it did before. Machines don't change their programming on a whim. If they didn't do that in New Hampshire that would explain the result of the recount. But I was under the impression that the NH recount was totally a hand count.

[ahyums]

12. so optical scan votes are definitely put back through the machine then?

Is the counting process of the optical ballots not one of the major areas of suspicion? and if so can nothing be done about this. I really can't believe all this money was raised, all this time was spent just to repeat the same methodology which was under question in the first place

[KaliTracy]

16. optical scan can be hand counted

this article states that.

Franklin County: http://www.indystar.com/articles/1/194039-4421-098.html (and the recount changed things http://www.jconline.com/election/stories20041113/200411130election1100322817.shtml )

This article states there are two ways to do it (depends, probably on the election commisioner)
Kentucky: http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2004/11/13in/A1-nine1113-6652.html

Here... in florida, after a "machine failure" - instead of counting the votes by hand at the end of the night -- they "locked them up" http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1265387/posts


this is just a small sample.
seems to me that it varies per state and district

tracy

edited for clarification

[ahyums]

25. well surely if it can be and indeed has been in other places by the looks

of things the same should happen in Ohio. I wonder if I'm working on wrong assumptions here or if I've missed something somewhere along the way, but as far as I can see this is completely critical to much of the fraud and indeed the recount argument.

[closhedbb]

13. I think it's time to MoveOn.org

Somehow I think that most of you people are going to be trying to find a way to get Kerry into office for the next four years. If you are really concerned about voter fraud, then you should be investigating it in all 50 states, not just the one that would flip the election. That just proves that Democrats are in it just to get Kerry in office, not for the moral or ethical value of the pursuit.
Everybody thinks they are right. Reps and Dems both do, equally powerfully, as well. Since we don't have a higher supreme authority to clarify things, we have to go with majority, which we did a month ago. To work to flip this election is to work against the ideals of the founding fathers. But most of you do that on a normal basis anyway...

[farmbo]

18. To expose voter fraud that flips 20 EVs is EXACTLY what our FFs would want

That's why they formed the Electoral College. And passed a Constitution calling for "free and fair" elections. GOP fraud is NOT protected under our constitution.

Bloody nice try...

Now go to bed and dream your Freeper dreams.

[MarkusQ]

21. Wrong on several points

First, I'm a Republican, so don't start with any of the red-blue name calling stuff. It isn't just Democrats that are interested in this, not by a long shot.

Second, your logic is flat out wrong. If we were trying to catch a bank robber, would you suggest taking finger prints at all banks, or only the ones that people were claiming were robbed? Ohio and Florida would be the most likely places for fraud (if any) to have taken place, and therefore are the most reasonable to check.

--MarkusQ

[Laura PourMeADrink]

27. What do you mean "we" Why do you care?

[newyawker99]

26. Hi closhedbb!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[KaliTracy]

14. Lots of Punch Cards in Ohio

So it's not all for naught.

Blackwell was trying to change over to electronic -- some areas used them during the primaries and went back to optical scan or punch card for the General (different reasons sited -- mainly "money") -- maybe *she said in a whisper* he wanted to use a "different" way to sway the vote... (naw, just strike that -- just a lunkheaded conspiracy theory)

Tracy

[Zeebo]

17. Is there a central tabulator system in Ohio...

or does each precinct provide it's own total? Reason I ask, if the alleged fraud occurred at some other location rather than the precinct itself, by running the ballots through the optiscan readers, they may be able to identify precincts that have their totals off from the official count. Yet, if the fraud occurred in the software of each precincts optiscan reader, we will never know the truth unless the a hand recount occurs.

Another question since I'm here, is the Ohio recount on for sure? I assume it starts the moment after Blackwell certifies the election on Dec 6th. If the repugs attempt to stall will the recount go on even after Dec. 13th?

I hope this doesn't end even before it can begin!!!!!!!

[KaliTracy]

19. I'm not sure

tried to google some information, but coming up with definitions -- not Ohio practices. Looking forward to someone having the answer, though.

[ahyums]

23. I think the recount will pretty much certainly happen although

not a chance of finishing it before certification.