What if Michael Jackson HAD been found guilty??

[LAGC]

With all the media love-fest going on out there and around here, I can't help but wonder how many would stubbornly stick by his side REGARDLESS of whether he was convicted of child molestation, since he "gave so much to the world" regardless....

But what if he didn't have all that money to buy off his victims and hire the best lawyers who could literally tear apart and discredit so many witnesses on the stand? Would we still see this extravagant funeral, and so many people gushing over his passing? Somehow I suspect we would... and that's what makes it all the more sickening.

(Note: I'm not aiming this thread toward any DU members in particular, and I've purposefully stayed out of the pro-M.J. threads to let those who want to mourn, mourn... but this "hero-worship" of a child abuser who dangled his kids out windows and forced them to wear veils when traveling outside (regardless of all the alleged molestation accusations) is just getting a tad bit ridiculous...)

[redqueen]

1. Fuck

Off

[hlthe2b]

3. ...

:toast:

[noiretextatique]

12. ...

:yourock:

[Hepburn]

97. +1...

...my sentiments exactly.

[H2O Man]

128. "

[Bryn]

130. Love ya!

:loveya:

[BlooInBloo]

2. What if....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Dennis Donovan]

50. What if Superman sided with the Nazis in WW2?

Übermann would've won the war for the Fatherland!:rofl:
(Yes, I ripped this off from an old SNL)...

[BlooInBloo]

54. And we would have sided with superman! So we hate Jews!!!

:rofl:

[stray cat]

4. You are still assuming guilt - only people in guantanomo are not guilty

and should be set free? What if he really didn't do anything and he was persecuted and lost his livlihood?

[Reform]

13. Right and i suppose OJ was innocent as well?

Yes he was found not guilty in a court of law which is why he was still a free man to walk around, but i feel he lost in the court of opinion amongst a lot of people.

[treestar]

61. Possibly he was not. The system is not perfect. But he was acquitted.

The court system may not be perfect, but public opinion is even less so. Far more less so, that's why we at least make an attempt at a court system rather than just let the vigilantes roll.

[TexasObserver]

110. An acquittal does not mean innocence.

You continually misstate the import of an acquittal. It does not mean the person is declared innocent, only that they are NOT GUILTY. A finding of not guilty can mean that the prosecution either did not or could not do its job. It may mean the jury was incredibly stupid. It could mean the defense team was simply much better than the prosecution's team.

You are free to believe anything you want about MJ's guilt or innocence, and so is everyone else. If you learn nothing else today, please learn that an acquittal is not a finding of innocence.

[noiretextatique]

82. lots of people have been acquitted

in the history of america. white defendants were routinely acquitted of murdering black people in the south, and beyond.

[MajorChode]

16. A kid drew an accurate depiction of his fuck stick

...and his own sister believed he was guilty as sin.

About 1 out of every 5 kids in this country is sexual abused, and the vast majority of perps never get prosecuted, even without MJ's wealth.

Not everyone chooses to be so naive. The assumption of guilt sure as hell isn't without basis.

[redqueen]

23. I've read the exact opposite as well.

That the drawing of his 'fuck stick' was inaccurate, which makes sense considering the jury verdict.

[LAGC]

28. That case never went to trial.

The kid who drew an accurate description of his genitals was the one who ended up settling for $20 million. (Curiously, Jackson didn't settle until AFTER the police examined his private parts... his lawyers were originally only wanting to give the family a small pittance of a settlement, but once the description of his genitals matches -- $20 million.)

[MajorChode]

30. Ah, yes, MJ himself said it, so it must be true, eh?

The boy who had accused Jackson of sexually molesting him, according to those familiar with the evidence, was able to draw—first for the district attorney, then for his own lawyers—an accurate picture of the dark spot on Jackson's penis. The boy's drawings were sealed in an envelope and clearly postmarked on a postal meter before the police ever photographed Jackson. According to these sources, the boy's drawings were an accurate match of the photographs.

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/1995/09/orth199509

[redqueen]

32. No, MJ didn't tell me that.

:eyes:

I don't recall where I read it... one of these dozens of threads I'm sure.


As for those mysterious unnamed sources, It'd be a lot more convincing if they weren't anonymous.

[MajorChode]

47. Inconvienient truths are a bitch

Quite often people just choose to believe whatever they want.

Stories quite often come from anonymous sources, and sometimes you just have to look at the credibility and integrity of the journalist, which has never been questioned, BTW. It also matches exactly what Tom Sneddon claimed quite publicly.

[redqueen]

56. Fortunately for me,

a survivor of incest/abuse, I don't spend nearly the amount of time agonizing over my abuser as many here seem prone to doing. I work with a psychologist to get over it, but I don't waste one minute dwelling on 'what ifs' about my abuser. It's pointless and stupid.

As for heresay and the 'truth'... I guess we'll never know. Oh well. Life goes on.

[MajorChode]

63. Actually only some people will never know

Mostly because they will never be convinced unless they see a video of MJ diddling a kid (and perhaps not even then). For some the burden of proof will always be insurmountable. It's hard pill to swallow when your hero is really a monster.

[redqueen]

76. Er, he's not my hero.

I just don't go around delcaring that I know things when I actually don't. The only two people that know for certain are the child and MJ.

I know that's really popular though, declaring that one knows things when actually it's just a belief.

Hey, maybe you can start with that "I know that I know that I know" that MJ was a pederast... that'd be neat.

[MajorChode]

117. It's called "analysis"

And believe it or not, the ability to think analytically is truly wonderful thing. Very few things are actually known with 100% certainty. Nobody knows for sure that the sun will come up tomorrow, but it's a reasonable conclusion that it will.

You make the same argument as the flat earthers. Because evolution hasn't been "proven" to their satisfaction, nobody can teach it without including both a disclaimer, and an alternate "theory".

[uppityperson]

43. I am amused when people can't write "penis", but must use euphemisms.

As if "fuck stick" is such a nice thing to write, but perhaps that is the reason for using that? To have it be a nasty thing?

[MajorChode]

52. Penis, PENIS, penis, penis

Somehow I doubt that you'll now be happy. People who live without humor rarely are.

You say tomato, I say tomato. You say penis, I say fuck stick.

[uppityperson]

57. Good job! I also am sorry you do not have a sense of humor.

[MajorChode]

58. Ah a clever repackaging of the old, "I'm rubber, you're glue" line

Your "humor" truly is amazing.

[uppityperson]

68. Indeed. Unlike your humorous "fuck stick" designation.

Which is not quite "amazing" humor. People I have heard refer to a penis as a "fuck stick" tend to be sexist dogs whom I do not care to be around

[MajorChode]

72. It hurts me so bad that you don't like me...

But then again, I'm not all that fond of pedophile apologists myself.

Have a nice day.

[uppityperson]

78. Thank you for acknowledging you are in that category. Makes things simpler

have a blessed day

[MajorChode]

89. Well, at least you're convinced of your own psycho babble

and that's what's important, eh?

So feel free to put words in others mouths, because I'm sure prejudging others makes your life just that much more livable.

Enjoy.

[uppityperson]

90. Your "hobby" is "Falling asleep after sex". huh. eom

"People I have heard refer to a penis as a "fuck stick" tend to be sexist dogs whom I do not care to be around" is "psychobabble"?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa

[uppityperson]

37. He drew a picture of a penis and this is evidence?Here are drawings. OMG! MJ had sex with me!

[MajorChode]

71. Was "his" fuck stick just too hard to understand?

Ah, but why take the time to understand when you can just post silly pictures, eh?

[uppityperson]

74. I don't know. Was his penis too hard to understand? most penis's don't talk to me much

whether hard or soft.

You missed my point that simply drawing a picture of a penis does not mean someone was molested.

[LAGC]

77. Well, at the very least is showed that M.J. exposed himself to the boy.

If that isn't pedophilic behavior, I don't know what is...

[uppityperson]

79. My shiny butt has been seen by little kids at the public swimming pool showers

Does that make me a pedophile? Does that make all the adults who use the public showers pedophiles?

People sometimes see each others nude bodies in non-pedophilic situations.

[MajorChode]

99. I'll take that as a yes

And lets not pretend that because the kid could accurately describe MJ's fuck stick was the ONLY piece of evidence against him, OK? Doing so really just reduces the entire discussion to such a ridiculously childish level, but I guess that's really the only way the MJ apologists can continue to maintain the charade, no? So keep telling yourself that the kid just happened to walk in on MJ in the shower if it makes you feel better. I actually get a kick out of people who pretend to be so naive.

[uppityperson]

105. Speaking of putting words into other people's mouths. Mr "falling asleep after sex" hobbyist. nt

[MajorChode]

112. It's called "turnabout"

If someone doesn't answer you can just inject your own, right?

I'm just an amateur at this; you're the expert. So correct me if I'm off-base here, OK?

I'm sure you will.

[uppityperson]

118. People I have heard refer to a penis as a "fuck stick" tend to be sexist dogs

People I have heard refer to a penis as a "fuck stick" tend to be sexist dogs whom I do not care to be around. Hobby: falls asleep after sex.

[MajorChode]

125. For someone who claims not to like me, you sure do hang around a lot

Perhaps you just can't stand not having the last word, even if you have to just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over.

That's OK by me, Uppity. If it means that much to you (and obviously it does), then by all means have at it.

Enjoy.

[Occam Bandage]

70. "Accurate" how? Did his deviate from the norm? nt

[LAGC]

75. Skin discolorations.

Didn't he have vitiligo or something?

Anyway, the kid supposedly detailed exactly where the "spots" were on M.J.'s private parts, and the police followed-up on that lead... it was said to be one of the strongest pieces of evidence against him if it ever went to trial. But he settled out of court soon after that and the boy's family didn't press charges. The rest is HIStory.

[Occam Bandage]

92. Interesting. Still, that only demonstrates he undressed within sight of the boy.

I don't see that as particularly damning, given that he admits freely and happily to sleeping in the same bed as the boy--it's common knowledge that Jackson does not understand the concept of appropriate boundaries as regards children. I would imagine that the defense would be that the boy saw MJ while he was changing into pajamas, and that's that.

I find both storylines equally compelling in the cases of supposed molestations. On the one hand, he does match the emotional profile of a Peter Pan pedophile, and the stories of abuse are plausible. On the other hand, Jackson was a well known and extraordinarily wealthy public figure whose bizarre self-promotion and constant contact with children would make him a juicy target for unscrupulous parents. Sexual crimes are among the most underreported of all crimes, but on the other hand, they also constitute the most common false claims made for vindictive or financial reasons. I honestly have no idea if he abused children, and if he did, the extent to which he did so. I can understand why some insist on believing he is absolutely innocent. I do not understand quite why some insist on declaring repeatedly that he is guilty.

[LAGC]

96. It could be both.

That he was a pedophile and the parents were unscrupulous/out-for-money.

I just don't see how just because the parents were bad apples (for allowing their kids sleep with a suspected pedophile in the first place, then suing him after the fact) how that automatically absolves Jackson of any wrong-doing.

[CatWoman]

104. I've often made the observation that I have never fucked my

daughter, brothers or sisters, yet I'd bet they could all describe my tits to a tee.

[pipi_k]

109. no kidding??!!

Since one pretty much resembles another (except for circumcised/non-circumcised) the kid either had a 50/50 chance of getting it right or...

he drew an accurate and distinctive picture of Michael Jackson's penis because it resembled Albert Einstein


:7

[MajorChode]

113. "pretty much" being the key phrase here

[Sukie]

5. It appears you have already made judgment anyway

so why ask? Oh yeah, to make yourself feel, um, what is that word........superior.

[yodoobo]

21. Why not?

As a free person he is perfectly entitled to form an opinion about someone's guilt or innocence.

[Sukie]

27. I hope that no one here who has presumed Jackson

guilty although he has never been proved guilty, never finds themselves in a similar situation. There have been many less popular, less rich people who have been accused of crimes that they really didn't do for much less than millions of dollars. And the dark side of human nature that is displayed here with the belief in guilt regardless of everything else has ruined many innocent lives. It's kind of strange how OJ keeps being brought up in these affronts towards Jackson. Most definitely not the same presumed crimes in these. Hmmm. I wonder why?

[LAGC]

29. Because they were both rich men accused of horrible crimes?

And bought the best attorneys money could afford to get them acquitted?

[NoGOPZone]

49. You mean like Robert Blake? nt

[MajorChode]

36. Let's flip the other side of your coin, fair enough?

I hope nobody here has endured getting molested as a child while the perp walks free and can molest other children.

However, this hope is pretty much forlorn because inevitably it HAS happened to many members here. About 1 out of 4 girls and 1 out of 6 boys are molested during childhood. The vast majority of their molesters are never brought to justice and those molested carry that burden around for the rest of their lives.

You tell me which is the bigger tragedy.

[yodoobo]

62. I believe he was guilty

That's my opinion and I see no reason to change my mind.

Of course had I been requested to sit on his jury, it would have my duty to ignore that opinion and make a judgment based only the evidence presented in that courtroom.

That said. That didn't happen. As a citizen not subject to thoughts crimes, nor having been asked to sit on his jury, I don't mind saying that I presume him guilty based on his own words and the evidence that we have seen.

[hlthe2b]

81. yup

:thumbsup: that's the point...(apparently)

[Critters2]

6. I keep wondering how those boys are feeling through all of this.

At least two boys know the truth about the "King of Pop". This canonization can't be easy for them.

[jobycom]

20. Depends on what they know.

If they were telling the truth, they probably aren't happy. If they were lying, they probably are feeling guilty.

[cboy4]

7. Hide thread

Kah-lick

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. He wasn't though.

Do you get that?

[jobycom]

9. What if Jimmy Carter had been found guilty of blowing up the World Trade Center?

:shrug:

[niceypoo]

11. I dont remember that court case

[jobycom]

22. So? Being accused makes someone guilty?

[niceypoo]

38. Sleeping with boys

makes people suspect that he is

[jobycom]

48. Being suspected makes one guilty?

[defendandprotect]

18. I think you mean Bushco . . . ??

[jobycom]

25. Nah, some people actually think they did it, so wouldn't work. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

10. IBTL

Oh...and :eyes:

[xchrom]

14. what if i had been born queen elizabeth? nt

[yodoobo]

15. He would probably still be alive right now

As he wouldn't have access to the same drugs in prison that he did as a wealthy man with a personal doctor.

[Justyce]

41. That was exactly my first thought. nt

[ContinentalOp]

44. I was going to post the same thing.

Wouldn't have been pushed into doing a tour he was physically unable to finish either.

[defendandprotect]

17. Too big to fail . . .

and, yes, I'm "presuming" his guilt based on what it looks like was going on.

And, yes, I'm "presuming" Bush's guilt """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

[Catherine Vincent]

19. He wasn't so the rest of your post is crap. nt

[walkaway]

24. He might be alive today. This is a man who seems to have...

slowly killed himself trying to turn himself into a white child.

He didn't need to buy children or chemically and surgically change himself. He needed psychiatric help from a professional who wasn't trying to make a living keeping him sick. Maybe in prison or with a court mandated program he would have at least had a chance to face his demons.

[TahitiNut]

26. Sometimmes, I suspect that such contemplation is motivated by a 'tingle' in one's crotch.

I suppose it's called "prurient interest" but the obsessive salacious speculation on DU seems a lot like fascinated peering at the scrambled adult channel. Juvenile, at best. :shrug:

[hlthe2b]

85. probably so, TahitiNut

or an enormous superiority complex (based on a considerable level of inferiority) of course...;)

[Contrary1]

31. As long as we're playing "What If?"

What if Junior had not been awarded the preznedency by the Supremes?

(Not a new topic, since I mentioned a group of popular African American singers.)

[uppityperson]

33. Hiding your children's faces from paparazi is a horrible thing to do indeed!

I mean, REALLY! How DARE a famous person veil their kids faces in public!

What if the moon were really made of cheese?

[LanternWaste]

34. And if he hadn't been found guilty by a court of law...

"I can't help but wonder how many would stubbornly stick by his side REGARDLESS of whether he was convicted of child molestation..."

And if he hadn't been found guilty by a court of law, I'm sure just as many would stubbornly and without regard stick by the allegations as an Absolute Truth, and base all opinions off of that.

...but that's not really a hypothesis on my part as was yours-- more of an observation.

[redqueen]

40. Yep.

A very astute observation.

[jobycom]

35. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzHJyKkEOHQ&feature=topvideos

[SidDithers]

39. And if my aunt had balls...

well, you know the rest.

Sid

[flvegan]

42. What if Billie Jean WAS his lover, and that WAS his son?

Yeah, just a little sumpin to think about.

[Fire1]

46. The way he kissed Anna Marie Presley or whatever her name is

sure didn't look like he was interested in little boys. But people see waht they want to see and hear what they want to hear.

[LAGC]

51. Most child abusers ARE heterosexual.

Only a small minority of pedophiles are exclusively into kids...

[Fire1]

53. thanks for the lesson on pedophilia. n/t

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire1]

83. Get out of my head!!! LOL!!! n/t

[LAGC]

84. No need to personally attack.

I've gained my knowledge on this subject through several Criminal Justice and Sociology (specifically criminal Deviancy) courses through the local university. What are your credentials?

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occam Bandage]

98. "No need to personally attack."

This is an interesting comment. It seems you're going on record with the moral claim that we, as individuals, oughtn't engage in unsupported speculation regarding potential felonious conduct on the part of other individuals in cases where that behavior is not relevant to any discussion or pressing interest at hand.

[LAGC]

103. Oh, I think its relevant.

In case you haven't noticed, M.J. has been all over the news non-stop for the past 2 weeks.

Her post just sounded like a case of attacking the messenger and not the message...

[Occam Bandage]

115. It's true that Jackson is/was a public figure.

And when it comes to the law, there is certainly a great deal more leeway allowed for discussions of public figures than for discussions of most private citizens. However, as you correctly point out in this thread (for which I thank you, as many people fail to grasp this), the distinctions of the law are not the same as the distinctions of morality/allowability as regards our opinions and discussions. Certainly it's legally permissible to be irritated at people celebrating the messages and works of Michael Jackson, and instead focus one's energies towards attacking him as a person. Does that make it right?

I certainly don't want to declare that it's wrong, but at the same time, I don't see much value in it.

[CatWoman]

107. as Emeril would say

BAM!!!!

[AngryOldDem]

111. You wanna be startin' sumpin?

Maybe this thread can be rehabbed after all.

:D

[flvegan]

116. This thread? A real Thriller.

Hoo hoo hoo!

Who's bad?

[AngryOldDem]

121. Now this is just Off the Wall...

Your turn.

[flvegan]

123. Of course it is. It's Human Nature.

[DRoseDARs]

124. Stop, or else I'm going to Scream...

;)

[AngryOldDem]

127. Well, then, just Beat It.

No offense intended -- just the best I could come up with at the moment, 'cause no one wants to be defeated.

:hi:

[DRoseDARs]

129. Oh, just Leave Me Alone.

Go here for more title pun ideas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson#Discography

:toast:

[Flaneur]

45. I still would not give a shit.

[Fire1]

55. I'll never believe it. There has never been definitive proof. n/t

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

59. What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?

It was a pretty funny SNL skit.

But, really, what if?

:rofl:

[treestar]

60. He wasn't found guilty

Lawyers are to give you legal advice and put your case forward for you - I feel sorry for the lawyer who represents you if you are ever accused of a crime you are guilty of - you appear to believe it's the lawyer's job to get you what you want, regardless of the truth.

He wasn't found guilty, end of story. You don't get to decide he was just because you have some sort of opinion or hunch or desire that he be guilty.

Settling civil suits is not an admission of guilt, period. That argument is a fail.

[yodoobo]

64. Actually he does

"You don't get to decide he was just because you have some sort of opinion "


We don't have thoughts crimes in this country.

The poster is perfectly entitled to decide whatever he wishes about anyone he wishes.

[Fire1]

114. That may be true but it confirms ignorance. n/t

[TexasObserver]

94. You're talking about the standard for conviction for imprisonment, not public opinion.

We are each free to conclude on our own if MJ was a pedophile, if Cheney was a traitor, or if Bush was a murderer. You are free to your opinion of the MJ situation, but not free to judge the posters here who disagree with you. That fact seems to escape those who think they're entitled to bash posters who disagree with their unwavering adoration for this dead child molester.

[ecstatic]

65. What if you had been found guilty for child molestation?

:shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

66. What if Gandhi had been a Nazi, and what if he committed acts of genocide? Then what? nt?

[Butch350]

67. But he wasn't...

and...what if my grandmother had balls, she'd be my grand dad.

Mean while, aim your lips at my butt and, pucker up.

[Butch350]

69. I think you got what you wanted...

ATTENTION!

[CatWoman]

73. and WHAT if you had been found "not stupid'?

[Fire1]

91. lmao!!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[butterfly77]

88. An innocent man would have went to jail...

Were you in his bed too,since you know for a fact that he is a child abuser.

LOVE YOU MICHAEL JOSEPH JACKSON!!!:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :applause: :applause: :applause: :toast: I guess it time to get back to some more mourning for Mike for a few more weeks,months,days,maybe years:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :applause: :applause: :applause: :loveya: :loveya: HERE'S TO YOU MICHAEL RIP :toast:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

93. He'd still be alive because

it's tougher to OD in prison than your mansion.

What's scarier is the thought of a man that looks VERY feminine in a jail full of guys. :scared:

[Raine]

95. He wasn't and

if he had been then it would've been a miscarriage of justice.

[LAGC]

106. Thank you.

I think you just proved my point.

[Raine]

108. Yup

I don't believe it and I never well.

[Hepburn]

100. What if...

...the earth was really flat?

...intelligent design was really true?

...Saddam in fact had WMD?

...you grew up?

Your point?

[AngryOldDem]

101. Why deal in :"what if's"?

It's pointless.

And flamebait.

IBTL.

[Sultana]

102. Hater Plz, he was found INNOCENT!

What part of that don't you and others understand?








:evilgrin:

[Liquorice]

120. Being found 'not guilty' does not mean a person is innocent. nt

[PretzelWarrior]

119. what if Cornwallis won at Yorktown?

what if I bought Microsoft at $10/share?

[CatWoman]

122. and what if we had listened to Ben Franklin?

we would all be speaking German, and the turkey would be our national symbol.

I always knew Ben was evil!!!

[ColbertWatcher]

126. Or, what if his alibi was considered "worse" than what he was accused of? n/t

[lawsonia inermis]

131. I don't see things as black and white, although I believe that regardless of what the decision was

the children did not lie as to their experiences with MJ! I am very pro-kids when it comes to abuse.

I also take into account the demeanor of the individual. Some peds are evil on all levels and MJ was not only so talented artistically, but he seemed like a very caring, loving person. EVEN THOUGH...