"Surely you can pray for me and I can dance naked in the woods for you"

[bloom]

From Hecate: http://hecatedemetersdatter.blogspot.com/

...For example: The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights is conducting a "2006 Christmas Watch," noting: "Every December sees its fair share of 'Grinches,' those retailers, schools, websites, towns and municipalities who refuse to acknowledge Christmas as part of the 'holiday season.' These Christmas kill-joys are all around. This Christmas, the Catholic League, Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. and the other Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have joined up to put the spotlight on these folks."

... I think what was being celebrated, menorahs aside, was a cultural winter holiday.

Religious holidays, on the other hand, are what we celebrate in our homes and at our places of worship. (OK, I don't have a set "place of worship." Today, I saw a lovely t-shirt that said, "Surely you can pray for me and I can dance naked in the woods for you." I loved that! But if I had "A" place of worship, I guess that it would be the woods.) So the CLRCR can go fuck itself. If they want to celebrate fucking xmas so much, they can go fucking celebrate it in their fucking churches and leave the rest of us the fuck alone. Otherwise, I'm going to start demanding that everyone wish me a Happy Solstice, sing Solstice songs, put up Solstice ornaments, and dance naked in the woods.

Of course, the catholics are in ZERO danger of not being able to celebrate their religious holiday. What they object to is the notion that they won't be able to shove their religious holiday down everyone else's throats.

[blue sky at night]

1. intolerance is intolerance.......

i dont like having it shoved down my throat by you either. If you hate a hater what does that make you? If you Judge others, what does that make you?...it changes nothing, it just shows the world that you are a person who has to judge. Forgiveness and co-operation are what makes things work, not fuck this and fuck that. I suggest you find someone who needs help and help them, it takes your mind off of your problems.

[bloom]

3. When people are intolerant of intolerance

that is not equivalent to oppression.

Maybe you think that Hecate should tolerate intolerance and then everyone would be happy. That is the same sort of argument that people make to suggest that women should tolerate sexism or they are sexist.

Actually - a lot of people are pissed off by people demanding that they be tolerant of other people's intolerance, sexism, racism - while those people are not willing to be tolerant of them. That's what I think it is about.

The concept of COEXIST is a great as long as the point is not that everyone be tolerant of the dominant culture while the dominant culture oppresses them.

I think a lot of people like to just ignore that oppression and pretend it does not exist.

So someone is mad. Too bad.

[blue sky at night]

5. I am not intolerant....

I forgive you for your blatant anti-religious sentiment. Glad you have time to worry about such pressing matters. Peace.

[JerseygirlCT]

14. I think what Bue Sky is saying is that

there are different ways to handle that intolerance. (I didn't see any urging to tolerate intolerance, either). You can find ways that don't require *you* to practice hate, and which may result in a positive change. The alternative usually just results in continued opposition, without any change for the better.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

7. No one hates the hater

Just like it's not intolerance of intolerance.

That's just word games to shut up people who insist the haters and bigots stop screwing up everything and everyone.

It's time to stop the stupid word games.

[blue sky at night]

10. well said.....

but, I used to hate the haters, and I never understood what that made me.

[Realityhack]

13. BS

I am intolorant of Nazism, genocide, etc.

Does that make me bad for judging others?

Crude language asside the blog quoted in the OP has a perfectly reasonable point. We should absolutely NOT tolorate a particular religion being shoved down our throats. We should speak up and tell people that it is wrong for them to be exclusive and ask that 'Merry christmas' be on everything instead of 'happy holidays' etc.

[kiahzero]

15. Exactly

I'm tolerant of others insofar as they are tolerant of others.

[blue sky at night]

16. wow, nice quantum leap there......

I am talking about tolerance of folks who have a differing view, and suddenly I am tolerating Nazism. I guess you are proof of the old paradigm, like begets like and it always will. If you can find it in your heart to forgive someone, it is for you...not them, it heals you. It also removes the power they have over you. Frankly, for a "liberal" place, there is a lot of intolerance of opposing view around here. Saying Fuck this and Fuck that really doesn't do much to move us forward, and that is what made me respond to the original poster. Perhaps you noticed I didn't return in kind, and no I am not a Catholic. Perhaps if one is more founded in his or her own view of the source of their being, then no one could EVER force anything upon them.

[bloom]

17. You might want to check your self-righteousness at the door.

As far as:

"Every December sees its fair share of 'Grinches,' those retailers, schools, websites, towns and municipalities who refuse to acknowledge Christmas as part of the 'holiday season.' These Christmas kill-joys are all around. This Christmas, the Catholic League, Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. and the other Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have joined up to put the spotlight on these folks."


Putting a spotlight on folks who don't go along with the Christmas agenda does have shades of Nazi intolerance.

You may be so wrapped up in it that you don't see it.


That's how you come across, anyway.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. You accused bloom of intolerance and hatred in post #1

when she had shown neither. She was advocating tolerance - that this Catholic organisation stop telling shops how to behave during a season that is not owned by Christians.

Neither did anyone say you tolerate Nazism. They just said that to not tolerate Nazism, or genocide, is OK.

However, your phrase that "intolerance is intolerance" does seem to mean you think that intolerance of anything, even Nazism, is bad. Is that what you think?

[elehhhhna]

2. My church is in the water.

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. But does your church...

...rise to the surface of the water when the alignment of the stars are right?

[elehhhhna]

12. Okay, my post made no sense. LOL ... my church is sorta in and sorta out

of the water but the bluer the water the churchier it is. Best Church ? The beach/es on Grand Cayman. Frikkin Crystal Cathedrals! More than heaven. 106 days to go.

[kwassa]

6. Christmas is primarily a secular capitalist retail observance

Though it clearly started as a religious holiday, most celebrate it by spending lots of money and giving gifts. The real church is the shopping mall.

this is what I object to having shoved down my throat; the societal pressure to shop and spend lots of money, rather than another way of showing love for people one cares about. Most current Christmas celebration of it is worthless crap.

[Az]

8. It started as a social assault

The Birth of Jesus was a minor observance within the church. Easter has always been the primary and most important observance within the Church.

But as the Church spread it encountered other beliefs and rituals. And it was the practice to overcome these beliefs and rituals with new ones predicated on Church Doctrine. So the birth of Jesus was used to cover up pagan beliefs and oppress them. They didn't know for certain when Jesus was born so they simply chose a conveinient date to assail the particular belief they were targetting. The irony is of course that what little we do know from the bible about when Jesus was born was that it could not have been in December. So it is a lie used to assail another culture.

All of which is irrelevant. The utility of Xmas overcomes its history. Xmas simply put occurs during a time of the year when the majority of humanity is going into a season of cold, isolation, and struggle. Gathering together for any reason to celebrate our connections to one another makes this journey through winter just a bit more palpable.

[bloom]

9. It's funny to think

how Christmas as we know it - has carried over so many pagan practices.

That Church leaders are defending the commercialism of Christmas (and the exclusiveness of that commercialization) is a sad thing for what it says about them.


This continuing oppressive assault on anything remotely secular or inclusive is symptomatic of the larger oppression that the Christian Coalition type of people would like to impose.

That people (and esp. the majority) were becoming more tolerant of each others religions (from 70s-90s) - celebrating "our connections to one another" regardless of tradition - apparently was seen as a threat to the history of domination.

The "killjoys" are those who refuse to see the holiday season as something inclusive for all religions and all people who want to celebrate connections instead of the divisions.

[cosmik debris]

11. Or they could just leave me out of it.

I find it mildly condescending for people to think that they are doing me a favor, providing me a service, by practicing their religion on my behalf. They seem to have a mistaken value of their own importance.

[bloom]

18. I don't have a problem

with people praying or "dancing naked in the woods" on my behalf. (That would depend on the situation and if the person seemed sincerely concerned).


I do find it annoying to have strangers condescendingly "forgiving" my supposed transgressions. (Oh - like for posting someone's blog entry that has the word fuck in it, or whatever).