Is monotheism the apotheosis of theism?

[BurtWorm]

If so, why? If not, why not?

[ananda]

1. hmm

Yes, I believe that monotheism is the ideal, the quintessence of theism.
God is just God.

And then I've heard it said that olytheism is the great
expression of all that is human, both the divine and the
daemonic, the bodily.. the mental.. the spiritual energies
that move us through the worlds.

Both are good.

Sue

[More Than A Feeling]

2. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the apotheosis of theism

is the realization that we actually have no clue about the nature of God, and that furthermore, if we suddenly received clear and positive information about the nature of God, a lot of us might decide that worshipping said entity isn't such a hot idea.

The reason I call this the apotheosis is because it shows respect for any possible God out there by refusing to commit idolatry through the worship of our own ideas of what that god might be like.

[Evoman]

4. Dude, your like two steps away from Atheism.

After realizing that we really have no clue about the nature of god, the next step is realizing that the limited info we have is completely made up. The last step is realizing that their is no evidence for god whatsoever, and that there really is no reason to have belief in a god.

Then all of a sudden your an atheist, and you no longer care about god. If he does exist, then let him show himself someday...in the meantime, lets just live life assuming that one day we're going to be worm-food.

[Finder]

3. I don't think so, however...

the so-called monotheistic religions apply apotheosis in making saints, prophets, etc...

The only truly monotheistic religion today is Islam although Mohammed's status (and some of his decendents) is pretty close to being apotheosized in some sects.

In Judaism(scriptural)there was a belief in more than one deity although only one was worshipped.

[Meshuga]

6. There is only one deity in Judaism

And that is the whole point of Judaism. Having only one God. The most important prayer by Jews called the Shema ("Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohaynu Adonai Echad." -- Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. - Deuteronomy 6:4-9) is recited twice daily by practicing Jews and a reminder of just that God is one.

As far as God that's the only point theist Jews agree is that God is one. Beyound that, any personal idea of God goes. Some think of God as a process and some as a personal God.

There are different names and attributes given to God in scripture but that God is only one.

In Jewish scripture God is sometimes referred to as God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob etc. since these individuals had a different experience or a different idea of what that one God represented to them. But as it is recited by religious Jews twice a day, the Shema tells the Jews that there is one God.

As opposed to the father, son, and holy ghost claim by Christianity.

[Finder]

7. I was talking more about the belief in more than one deity...

not the worship.

[Meshuga]

8. No belief either

There is the belief in God and that's it. There were Hebrews in the Biblical stories who worshiped pagan gods, images, etc. but that has nothing to do with Judaism. These are storied to teach against idolatry.

Judaism is based on the belief that God is one. There is no devil, no saints, no semi-god messiah, etc. in Judaism.

[Finder]

12. Like all religions, Judaism has its sects....

and not all have orthodox views.

We should start a thread on this separately.

[Meshuga]

13. Which non-Orthodox sect...

...believe in another deity? Not Reform. Not conservative either.

[BurtWorm]

9. What's this business about "Elohim"?

Forgive me for not being right up on it, but I recall reading that early versions of the Hebrew God refer to "Elohim," which is plural. Supposedly, it's a relic of either a previous polytheistic incarnation of Judaism or a nod to the dual-nature of god, being both male and female.

What's that about?

[Meshuga]

14. Same deal as the Torah...

...refers to Moses as Elohim in Exodus 7:1 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, 'See, I have made thee a god (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.'"

When the Torah refers to God it uses verbs in the singular form. And if it refers to other "false gods" then it uses the verbs in the plural form.

The reason... Good question. I don't know. I will ask my rabbi on Saturday.

[TRYPHO]

17. there are actually 4 well defined source documents in the OT

I am simply going to tell you they are the D, J, E and P sources - with J standing for the Jahweh name of God. The others are Elohim, Priestly and Deuteronomy - which is quite dinstinct and represents the reformist views of King Josiah in the late 7th century BC.

Start another thread if you want more!

TRYPHO

[BurtWorm]

18. Now I remember where I read this: The Book of J

Actually, Harold Bloom's intro.

Thanks!

:toast:

[Meshuga]

21. Documentary Hypothesis

From wikipedia...

adding on edit:

"In studying the Hebrew Bible, some historians and academics in the fields of linguistics and source criticism have proposed the theory known as the documentary hypothesis: that the Five Books of Moses (the Torah) represent a combination of documents from different sources rather than a single text authored by one individual."

"Major areas considered by scholars supporting the documentary hypothesis include:

-The variations in the divine names in Genesis;
-The secondary variations in diction and in style;
-The parallel or duplicate accounts (doublets);
-The continuity of the various sources;
-The political assumptions implicit in the text;
-The interests of the author(s). "

"The hypothesis proposes that a redactor (referred to as R) composed the Torah by combining four earlier source texts (J, E, P and D), specifically:

J - the Jahwist. J describes a human-like God called Yahweh and has a special interest in Judah and in the Aaronid priesthood. J has an extremely eloquent style. J uses an earlier form of the Hebrew language than P.
E - the Elohist. E describes a human-like God initially called El (which sometimes appears as Elohim according to the rules of Hebrew grammar), and called Yahweh subsequent to the incident of the burning bush. E focuses on biblical Israel and on the Shiloh priesthood. E has a moderately eloquent style. E uses an earlier form of the Hebrew language than P.
P - the Priestly source. P describes a distant and unmerciful God, sometimes referred to as Elohim or as El Shaddai. P partly duplicates J and E, but alters details to suit P's opinion, and also consists of most of Leviticus. P has its main interest in an Aaronid priesthood and in King Hezekiah. P has a low level of literary style, and has an interest in lists and dates.
D - the Deuteronomist. D consists of most of Deuteronomy. D probably also wrote the Deteronomistic history (Josh, Judg, 1 & 2 Sam, 1 & 2 Kgs). D has a particular interest in the Shiloh priesthood and in King Josiah. D uses a form of Hebrew similar to that of P, but in a different literary style.
"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

[TRYPHO]

24. I've got enough book to read already

without you having to add to my list. I need to live to 120 to get through what I've got plus the whole feckin internet to wade through AND keep up with the DU postings.

Dont you lot have jobs to go to?

TRYPHO:-)

[BurtWorm]

27. It sounded like you'd already read from what you wrote above.

I'll keep my books to myself around you. ;)

[kiahzero]

5. How strict is your definition of monotheism?

Is Hinduism "monotheistic?"

[BurtWorm]

10. I've never heard of it being called monotheistic.

Is it monotheistic according to your view?

[kiahzero]

16. It depends on the definition of monotheistic

The reason I ask is because Advaita Vedanta (which I understand to be the dominant school of Hindu thought) could easily be construed to be monotheistic, as there is only one "god" which is everything. I wouldn't call it monotheism, but others might.

[BurtWorm]

20. Do Hindus think of it as monotheism?

I tend to think of monotheism as literally belief in and worship of a single god, as opposed to belief in a slew of them, or belief in a concept of god that shifts shape from one to many and back and forth. I usually think of the monogod as separate from the universe, but maybe that's too limited a definition.

Are you asking if this is monotheistic because you think it's the apotheosis of theism, whatever it is?

[kiahzero]

22. Perhaps a similar manner.

I believe that the nature of the divine is unknowable and beyond our ability to understand in a complete sense; therefore I cannot really justify any belief in what the "apotheosis of theism" is, if any such thing exists.

[Finder]

11. This will lead to another definition struggle.lol

Most polytheistic religions have a lead god or creator god or force. Vishnu according to the Vedas for example.

Even in Judaism, Elohim vs El etc...

Western and Eastern concepts are very different and depending how far back one has studied theology will decide how one defines certain terms used in religion.IMO

Because so much has been redefined in Christian theological terms it is difficult sometimes.

[kiahzero]

15. That's henotheism you're talking about (n/t)

[Finder]

19. Yes. n/t

[FDRLincoln]

23. my ideas

Hmm....I would consider myself a panentheist....note that is not the same thing as a pantheist. A pantheist believes that the Universe is God. A pan-ENtheist believes that the Universe is PART of God, but that God ultimately transcends what we know about the universe.

My personal philosphy owes much to the Sufis and the various mystics of the major (and minor) religions, plus my own experiences with what I can only describe as Spiritual Love-Energy, a sort of Force (for you Star Wars fans) that pervades the Universe. I have felt it in my own life, and have seen enough outside conformation of its effects (including physical manifestations that affected people who were not aware of what I was going through) that I no longer doubt it intellectually despite my tendency towards being a skeptic. I don't believe in God because of the Bible or the Koran or any other Scripture. I believe in a Divine SOMETHING that includes but transcends the Universe because of my own experiences. Your mileage may vary, of course, and I realize that my experiences are difficult to put into words, and very difficult to understand if you have not had a similar experiences.

I've been trying to codify what I believe, and I suppose one way to put it is that I am a Pan-entheistic Ethical Hedonist. . .God includes but transcends the Universe, and in this sense we are all part of God. Our minds are too limited to truly understand this completely, but we do know that Love is paramount. As for how we should live our lives, ethical, loving, and moral behavior is critical (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, etc) since we are all in this, literally, together. . .we are all cells in the larger body of God if you will. From this point of view, a person who does bad things (a murderer, a thief, an evil politician) is analogous to a cancer cell that goes wild in the body.

As for the hedonism part, I regard pleasure as one of the primary goods of life, to be shared and enjoyed with each other since we are all part of the same universe. This includes physical pleasure (sharing pleasant bodily sensations), mental pleasure (exchanging knowledge, learning about ourselves and the world), and emotional pleasure (love, caring, compassion). Of course, this has to take second place to the ethical/moral dimension, which is why the "hedonism" is listed after the "panentheism" and the "ethical" in the title of this philosophy! :)

[rug]

25. Don't you mean epitome?

[BurtWorm]

26. No.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apotheosis

1. model of excellence or perfection of a kind; one having no equal

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/epitome

1. a standard or typical example; "he is the prototype of good breeding"; "he provided America with an image of the good father"

[immoderate]

28. No.

Which is the "best" theology? Some might say the one that best reflects reality. So the answer is atheism.

--IMM

[cyborg_jim]

29. WINNER!