How to convert a believer in 10 easy steps...

[TRYPHO]

Ok, I've been reading a lot here from people who either have a friend they want to convert, of beliefs that are so fixed that there's no room for maneouvre, or people that are so open to anything that they try everything, and end up with nothing. (plus many other options, yada yada yada, kiss the atheists) :grouphug:

So, what I want to know is (given that you are what you are, for whatever reasons you got there), what is the best method for enlightening you in another path?

What are the most convincing points, questions, ideals, actions, anything you blooming well like, to convince someone to become a Jew, Christian, Muslim or Atheist, or to convince someone who IS one of those to not be?


Come on, convert me, you know you want to!

(OK, I know that this line of questioning probably isn't in the best ethos of the website, but even so, I'm sure people must have SOME convincing reason/s for BELIEVING or DISBELIEVING in some of our God-options, that are worth sharing and aren't based on emotions)

TRYPHO

[jgraz]

1. Am I allowed to kill you?

Cuz that would pretty much answer all your questions. :evilgrin:

[TRYPHO]

19. Only if you can prove i'll go to heaven

LOL

TRYPHO

[Roland99]

2. Hard to say.

For me, just simply reading books from biblical scholars that delve into the Jewish/Hebrew history/culture and how the Bible was pieced and edited together helped set me on the path toward non-belief.

One must have an open mind before the journey can begin, though.

[TRYPHO]

15. It made me go the other way actually.

I found it all totally fascinating, learnt of the authority being passed to the Judges, read the history through to present day, came to the Talmud, which covers all the missing peices, and am quite serence as a believer, and the customs of my belief.
But back to the point in hand, perhaps "information overload" for other religions might convince them their religion had weaknesses and flaws, but I doubt it. I would imagine (and I am VERY well read on early Christianity) that they would find that as fascinating as my insights gained in to ancient Judaism.

But as you say:
One must have an open mind before the journey can begin, though.

So if someone is FIXED they wont be changing no matter what you might say to them.

TRYPHO

[Az]

17. Deep study seems to have a varied effect

There are plenty of stories that go either way. A person who's faith is bolstered by deep study or a person who's faith is shattered by deep study. I have known a miriad of both. It seems dependent on particular paths and pre-existing mindsets.

[Joe for Clark]

3. Don't do this.

Religion and politics need to be kept very far apart.

From a pretty decent christian,

Joe

[William769]

4. It's not a matter of convincing.

To accept Jesus Christ as your saviour is personal and life changing. There are no pros or cons to it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

11. Christians get real insulted

Christians get really insulted when I tell them I accepted Jesus Christ, yada yada, and NOTHING CHANGED. Life didn't get any better, I was still depressed, unemployed, etc. I have told numerous Christians point blank that life did not change. Didn't work.

I just burned up gas and wasted time going to church, hearing about what a horrible piece of shit I was just for being born (which made me want to crawl in a hole--I told the preachers this). They wanted money I didn't have.

I also asked them to help me find a job (NOT a handout, a job) and got no place.

And then they say "Well you didn't pray hard enough, bla blah blah..." which insults my intelligence/faith/whatever.

They tell me I have free will, but if I DO NOT choose THEIR religion, I'm going to hell, which is called DURESS in the legal field. They are lying about that version of free will.

And then if they say that some bad person claimed to be Christian, they pull out the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, which says that "No true Christian would do that". Which is not a logical excuse at all. I know of no one that can examine a person's heart and determine if they are a true Christian or not.

I called my aunt to tell her her sister (my mom) had died. She gave me a commercial for Jesus. I told her that it didn't work for me, I had tried it. She said "I urge you to believe". She said, "When you have the funeral, I want to be there."

I did not want to put up with her commercial for Jesus, so I refused to hold a funeral for my mother. I also did not want some preacher Mom didn't know going on about her life, when she did not believe in any form of religion when she died. Mom thought there was no afterlife, and she was cool with it. I told my aunt this. My aunt was horrified. She'd rather my mom had been worried about salvation, I guess, than be at peace with herself. :banghead:

I got deconverted from Christianity because it didn't do anything to help me. I consider it to be a comforting delusion for most people. Read Sigmund Freud for more information.

[William769]

18. Not all Christians. I'm not insulted.

If you notice in my post I said nothing about Church, I said it was personal.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but I can't change that and won't even try.

To me Christianity is helping other people and finding the good in our world, and yes that fills my heart.

I once told somebody that when I die, I will go knowing there is a better place for me, but if by chance I was wrong & I get burried & all that happens to me is that I turn to dust... well you know what it was worth it because it gave me piece of mind when I was alive.

[Joe for Clark]

24. You are christian ,huh? - What didn't you understand exactly

when Jesus said his kingdom was not of the earth. You prayed and you think he didn't help you - well maybe you weren't supposed to helped as you thought- maybe you needed to learn something from the trials life gave you. What makes you think you know better?

To the person that startyed this - KEEP RELIGION OUT OF THE BODY POLITIC. It is not good for anybody to mix it. It is personal to people and you are inviting comments that do not belong here.

Joe

[TRYPHO]

33. I fairly new here so maybe I've made a mistake....

To the person that startyed this - KEEP RELIGION OUT OF THE BODY POLITIC. It is not good for anybody to mix it. It is personal to people and you are inviting comments that do not belong here.
--
Joe, either here (for the benefit of other newbies) or as a Personal Message (which I've never used so that might be cool) could you please tell me why a religious question is political? Or why I shouldn't ask a religious question on a Religion/Theology forum (admittedly of a political website).

I knew my original post was contentious (even flame-bait) but your argument it shouldn't be HERE seems odd, which I put down to my ignorance.

Please enlighten me.

TRYPHO

[Joe for Clark]

35. I'll do the best I can.

A belief (or disbelief in a god) has nothing what-so-ever to do with a political philosphy.

And it didn't used to be that way. And if events did not turn the way they did the past 6 years, it wouldn't matter to me in any event.

But it did turn.

The rise of a religious right - it so turned on the rest of us christians - in such a bad way. It made, at least for a time, being considered christian into being a right wing nut job - that it gives people, at least me, a really bad feeling. Say christian in a political atmosphere and it just brings up defenses that go so deep. And they shouldn't. Just a personal belief, right??

The problem is that it has been made political - not by any of our choosing - just has.

Joe

[TRYPHO]

37. Ok, thanks for that

I can see where you are coming from now. Of course I'm not Christian, and I'm not even American (should i be here? Yes, coz I f hate GWB and he rules/ruins the world, which I have to share with the dimbo) so I don't feel the emotion you do with this subject first hand.

Also, it seems sad/strange/at odds with what other people are saying on this site, where they are saying its hard in some places to get on UNLESS you are a practicing Christian, and where declaring yourself an Atheist* is like committing cultural suicide.

Anyway, that discussion is for elsewhere, and on another occasion.

I am genuinely sad to hear anyone of any faith is having a hard time with it because of the way others are treating them. Lets just start the ball rolling in the right direction with some positive mixed culture dialogue**, and let the love spread out.

Yeah.

TRYPHO
* - or whatever
** - apparently you Americans spell that without the ue at the end. I will show you how it is spelt where English was English not whatever it has evolved in to now over there.

[Joe for Clark]

39. Its cool - I didn't explain that well.

I think. There are many here who can do do better than me explaining it.

The point is they shouldn't have to - not in America.

Joe

[TRYPHO]

16. My question might have come across badly..

I'm more interested in the INFORMATION people have, than the actual desire (WHICH I ASSURE YOU I HAVE NONE ---->REPEAT NONE<-----) to try and convert anyone.

I just think people know things I don't - either PRO or CON.

Don'f forget I wanted supporting info too.

But if you say its just on faith then so be it, it just on faith. And facts can't argue with faith.

TRYPHO

[Az]

21. Every person I have ever met that converted one way or the other

talked about how it changed their life. And the truth is shifting your world view does change a lot. Whether you are taking up a belief, accepting a belief, or rejecting a belief. They all shift how you see the world. They change things. So whether you find Jesus or lose Jesus it changes things in a very real way.

[Warpy]

25. So is the realization you've got a completely different path

For the record, I'm never out to convert anybody to anything. Well, maybe heart attack victims to a low fat diet and nonsmoking lifestyle, but that's about it.

We're all constitutionally guaranteed the right to follow our illusions, delusions and rationalizations to the bitter end. Since we really have no clue who's right and who's wrong and nobody's come back to give us the real scoop on what's to come, we may as well recognize everybody's right to whatever gets them through the night.

It's really the height of arrogance to tell other people their belief system (or lack of it) is wrong and to try to convert them to another that's likely equally wrong.

[queenbdem87]

5. OK....

No religious doctrine can be proven factually. We live in a world that is based no functioning under fact and logic. Therefore, believing in some religious doctrine is illogical and impractical as well. I certainly wouldn't be able to dispute the existence of a higher power, but one would certainly not be able to prove any religous doctrine out there. Religious faith is a circular fallacy that has no place in rational discussion. I was raised a christian and came to these conclusions. All religion is is a manifestation of most people's inner inclination to believe in a higher power. It is also usually a creation by those in power seeking to keep order and power in their traditional place, not to spread a religion. Most christans, for example, would most likely not even be christians today if it wasn't for Emporer Constantine of Rome deciding that accepting that faith would keep his empire secure in the future.

It is also dangerous for a person to rely on religious beliefs for moral guidance because it doesn't have a rational/factual basis....this ignores the fact that there is a factual basis for certain moral values such as equality, choice, being anti-death penalty etc.

[ngant17]

30. Monotheism evolved from sun worship

and from a rational and scientific standpoint, we are are forced to believe that the Sun is the source of all life on this earth.

No religion can ever stand up to rational thinking and logic.

You don't need religion to be altruistic.

As regards the existence of a soul or spirit, there are a lot of unanswered questions here.

[Mojambo]

6. I don't want to convert people

It seems incredibly arrogant.

[twilight_sailing]

7. How do I know you are worth the trouble?

[TRYPHO]

20. My Mum seems to think I'm worth a lot

She loves me, my wife loves me, and my kids love me.

I'm worth a fortune as long as the currency is love-dollars.

Otherwise, my money is owed.

TRYPHO

[bluerum]

8. Errr,,,,mmmmm. OK. Ya wanna be a satanic love slave for a 400lb

ex chorus girl cult?

[TRYPHO]

23. Are there benefits?

I have one day free a week if you can offer free dental cover!

TRYPHO
(photo required first)

[bluerum]

40. Sorry - no dental. But of course, you won't need it once you shed

your skin.

BTW - one day a week ain't gonna cut it for these gals.

[TRYPHO]

42. Sorry - deals off = I need my skin currently

Perhaps in the Spring when I shed it next.

And I only like BIG gals, so keep gorging gorgeous.

Thinking of you,

TRYPHO
(Can anyone see an escape pod?)

[Burma Jones]

9. Well, primarily, the person you want to convert has to be in a weakened state

Either a Child, or an addict or someone with a lot of self doubt or pain or loneliness or at the wrong end of a gun. Then you can sell them anything. That's how it's done usually. It's pretty much along the same line as selling dish detergent or Beer.

[Az]

14. Unfortunately

This is often the way in many beliefs use. While not done in a deliberate or malicious way on the part of the participants the more effective belief systems have adopted the idea of trying to "share" their particular beliefs when people are most tramatized. And this is very effective. Its human nature.

Tradgedies are times of shifting beliefs. They can shift a person's world view by weighing for or against a particular belief. Left to their own a person can wander into any particular belief at such a time. This is why Clergy most often attempt to ingratiate themself at such times (again not maliciously, its just an adapted aspect of any system that needs to propogate its beliefs). By guiding a person at such a juncture they can mold their view to fit more with the world view their belief system holds. And as is typically the case their belief is that they are guiding the person to a better path.

[Joe for Clark]

36. That is very offensive.

Some of us believe what we believe by learning and seeking.

And then, I guess some of us really just do go by the best beer commercial.

Any way, I wouldn't be mixing the two thoughts.

Joe

[Burma Jones]

49. Ah, well, the OP was asking about converting

What you describe is not the same thing. Conversion is a type of coercion, folks going out finding some sort of faith because they want to connect to the unknowable is different. So, I wasn't trying to offend anyone except maybe proselytizers

[Az]

10. The single best way to convert someone

is not to try. Don't set out to convert someone. At its base such a concept is morally reprehensible. We all have a desire to see our world views shared by others but we wish to have our world view respected therefor you have to morally respect others world views as well. Its sort of where our entire notion of human rights comes from.

That being said the best way to convert someone is not to. I repeat myself but it really is the way. Do not try to convert them. Instead just represent your world view in a strong and confident manner. By being the best representitive of what you believe in you provide for your friend an example of your world view in action. And that is really how we learn things.

When we are children we are effectively instructed in what to believe by being told what to believe. But once we begin to develop our own sense of the world we begin to reject things others tell us without determining it for ourself. Ask any parent about this effect.

Missionaries (some of them anyway) have figured this out. They go out into the world and do good deeds. It is the strength and generousity of their actions that sparks interest in their world view. There are of course missionaries that make their actions conditional but they are not as effective as the altrustic ones.

A further benefit of not trying to convert people to another belief is it dismantles their notions about what other beliefs are about. And this in and of itself causes them to rethink their beliefs. If their experience differs from the beliefs consistantly then they begin to question their beliefs. So if they believe that whatever belief you hold is evil or nefarious in some way and their experience of you differs with this and you are strong (but not pushy) in your beliefs then they have to rethink their beliefs eventually.

Be strong. Represent your beliefs. But do not expect others to accept your beliefs. Allow them to believe what they will. And in so doing you will do the most you can do to share your beliefs with those around you. Push your beliefs and you wind up pushing people. And that gains you nothing.

[William769]

13. Are you single?

Just joking. :evilgrin:

BTW, I love your post.

[Coyote_Bandit]

12. My beliefs

are my own. I cannot make them yours. Everyone is responsible to choose their own "faith" - regardless of what that belief system may or may not entail. If someone can be persuaded to follow any particular belief system then they can be manipulated. Too many folks are afraid to accept responsibility and come to their own conclusions, therefore, they rely on someone else to reveal "spiritual" truths. I will find my own truth.

[TRYPHO]

22. I find that interesting...

perhaps that will be the modern path - each man for himself and dont try and convert me. I like that. But I still feel there's some value in gaining both insight and information in to others beliefs, and therefore one should also have the negatives or antithesis of that belief when looking in to them, since, when given a one-sided point of view on entry, every religion, cult, sect, creed and faith would probably appear enticing.

So, although I will gladly accept YOUR faith is YOURS, can you accept that it has flaws and negatives, and that if someone is interested in your faith, should they be told the negatives, and should/would/could you be the person to tell them?

TRYPHO

[Coyote_Bandit]

26. The thing is

faith by its very nature depends upon personal belief. By definition it is not purely rational. Faith often includes matters of mystery and paradox. All belief systems ultimately rest upon some assumption that cannot be proven or disproven.

My faith is my own and cannot be yours because you must choose your own beliefs. For the same reason, my faith is not my own if I do not believe. And if I believe then my own bias makes it unlikely that I will identify limitations within my belief system. Even if I identify them I may tend to downplay them or to dismiss them - perhaps due to something like my own misunderstanding of the less than rational aspects of my faith.

You suggest that it is incumbent upon me to identify and reveal limitations of my belief system. Why? I do not prosyletize and would encourage anyone who might approach me to come to their own conclusions and to find their own truth.

People must assume responsibility for their own spirituality, do their own investigations and come to find their own truth. Those who do not do this are subject to being manipulated and used.

I must say that the burden of questioning and defining personal truth lies with the seeker. Just because somebody is selling something (whether a tangible good or an intangible belief system) doesn't mean you have to buy it. And there is always somebody selling something.

[dmallind]

27. Well anecdotal but

In a very large number of informal and quite a large number of formal debates I have "deconverted" precisely ONE Xian.

This is a source neither of pride nor of shame. It has never been my goal to do so, and while of course my intent was to argue for atheism (defined as a lack of belief in gods) as the only inductively reasonable conclusion from a logical POV, I frequently admitted, and still do, that faith by definition works outside pure logic and is perfectly fine, per se, for those who are happier with their faith than they would be without it.

That said the argument that did the deconversion (at a Xian bookstore with Ray Comfort on the other end of the argument - who made the mistake of misdefining atheism from the get go) was a pretty basic extrapolation from free will and omnipotence. I've used it a hundred times. It's a tricky one to answer, but I use it to demonstrate the rational internal inconsistency between the two concepts in Xian theology rather trying to disprove divine existence with it. It only worked that way (to my knoweldge!) the one time. Actually that bears a comment - "deconversion" is rarely an instant epiphany like conversion, or at least born-again conversion, often can be. It's more than probable cumulative effects of secular arguments eventually tip over a doubter into a nonbeliever without a specific single trigger more often than not.

Anyway basic idea is

Premises:
- God knows everything
- God can do anything
- God created my soul with full knowledge of what I would do in life, even if the free will was mine alone (the latter clause is a problematic assumption to me, but I was making the argument to a Xian and the idea of course was to have him agree to the premises)
- Atheists will go to Hell.

Argument:
God created a soul knowing that it would become an atheistic one, even again if you assume that I had the free will in this matter. That means that at the specific instant he decided to create my soul he knew it would be bound for an eternity in Hell. He had the power to change that, and not necessarily at the expense of free will - he could have simply exercised his own free will and not made my soul at all. He however made a soul knowing that after some finite and largely harmless if atheistic lifespan, he would torture that soul in Hell for eternity.

Conclusion: Any god who would do this is either malicious or not omnipotent, and therfore not big G God.


A rather common argument but the twist I use that is less common is to not argue against free will but instead accept free will (for the purposes of this argument!) and show that God still has to choose to damn for eternity a soul he made knowing he would do so - which kind of calls into question why he would bother either a)creating it or b)giving it terrestrial life at all before throwing it in the "reject bin" of Hell.

A reminder (long post I know) it is not my intent or desire to deconvert anyone, nor do I suspect this argument would deconvert most people (I can think of stronger ones myself - principally those showing the syncretism of pre-Xian faiths into Xianity and hence the derivative nature of the faith).

[happyslug]

28. Try the following

1. NEVER offend the person you are trying to convert, no matter HOW opposed to his or her belief system you are. This is often hard to do by "True Believers" but must be followed. Look at the Vatican Web-Site, you do not see any condemnation of ANYONE. The reason is if someone is Offended he or she will go into a defensive mode and any possibility of conversion is lost.

2. See what is the world view of the person you are trying to convert. See what he or she has in common with what you want him or her to believe in. St Paul (one of the greatest converters of all time) did this constantly, once he even went into a temple where they was alters to all the gods, including one to any gods they had missed, he used that alter to show that the Greeks he was trying to convert was already worshiping Christ in the form of this Altar to unknown gods. The communists did the same pointing out they ere for the poor just like the Christians were.

3. Emphasis all the good that came out of your movement (and ignore the bad, or if you na not ignore the bad spin the bad to minimize the bad). Look at any ad campaign right after a food tampering case, temper improved seals are introduced or increased and this is used to show that the alleged tempering is no longer possible.

4. Make sure your movement look "sexy". "All the Girls/Boys attend our function". Your local bar does this to get the young people in. It is part of "Converting" people, by making it "Fun" to believe in something (Look at the ads for Beer, everyone is having a good time and look young and healthy for they drink beer. Tied in with this is the concept if you get someone to start to use your product in their teen years, they will continue to use your product till death, thus make whatever you are selling "Sexy" to today's youth.

5. Make it look like the "Smart" thing to do. People want to do what other think is "Smart". Thus saying that buying X is what smart people do, people will buy it because they want to look like they are "Smart".

6. At the same time appeal to they basic needs, for example the need for being popular, thus if you ar ea member of our group you will be popular, reinforce that by making sure all and any new member feels not only welcomed into your group but is treated as a full member. People want to belong, and once they are a member of something will stay with it just to satisfy their need for friendship.

7. Another basic need is Sex, try to make sure any new convert feels he or she will be able to satisfy their sexual needs. Thus all religious (With just a few exceptions, the Shakers for one) not only permitted Sex within marriage, they encouraged it among they members. Sex is also used in selling a lot of things, why else do you see all those young models need automobiles? It is not some sort of welfare program for god looking models.

8. Safety Needs are another basic need that needs to be factored in. You need to feel safe. The Gin makers use this concept when selling pistols for self-defense. Automobiles use this concept when selling SUVs. "You feel safer when driving out SUV".

9.Food is another basic need, best used in areas of actual starvation, but it was used in the US for example during the 1930s when California Fruit owners passed leaflets into the Dust Bowl to get new fruit pickers to push down the wages of fruit pickers (And is used today to get illegal immigrants to come into the US to lower wages).

10. Protection of love ones, For example when selling SUVs to men so they can feel that they had protected their wives and children by buying a SUV to drive.

Now all of the above can be used (and have been used) by almost any group who wanted to convert people. This includes Madison Avenue whose jobs is often to convince people to change they belief system regarding what to buy. No ad ever says "If you buy brand Y, you are an idiot", no the ad is more "Smart people use Brand X" and then show why "Smart" People are buying brand X.

The big two factors are the first two, i.e. do NOT offend the people you are trying to convert AND understanding who you are trying to convert. When the Jesuits went into China, they first studied the Chinese and even says good things about the Chinese Ancestor Worship (The Pope in Rome in around 1700 then blew the program by saying no Christians could continue to worship their ancestor, a position the Jesuits opposed for they knew they could NOT convert the Chinese if conversion was viewed as an attack on Ancestor Worship).

Thus to convert anyone you must know that person, more than they know themselves (Thus Madison Avenue does a lot of marketing research on who they are aiming they products at to make sure they know they market). Thus to convert anyone (even you) I must know you and NOT what you tell me (People often lie to themselves) but based on pass behavior which I can only see if I study you for months on end (Which I do not have time to do).

Thus you will find people even in the Vatican attacking Ann Colter's comment about Converting the Middle East as stupid for it takes years, Often Centuries to convert a people (Rome was NOT majority Christians till about the time of Theodosius the Great, who lived about 70 years after Constantine, thus by 400 years after the Birth of Christ only about 1/2 the Roman World was Christian and that was almost 100 years of Imperial Support of Christianity by 400 AD (THrough Christianize of the Empire would accelerate rapidly after 400 AD). The reason is the need to understand who is being Converted and to then arrange for person to be converted (While you do have some incidents of Violence to non-Christians at this time period, these are rarely reported to have support from the Church or the Imperial Court, being more mobs that channeled they anger at any pagan they happen to run across). It was not till the Reign of Justinian 200 years after Constantine that it was made illegal to be Pagan, and that was only to "convert" the last holdouts of the almost disappeared Pagan Religion (In the Case of Justinian, the temples were closed and churches built in their place with no record of any act of Violence in the changeover).

Anyway, my point is to convert anyone takes time, and effort. If you follow the first two rules you can convert almost anyone to anything provided the system of belief (In God or the Happiness of buying Brand X) has some basis that helps the convert feel his life would be better off with the "product" whatever it is.

[Zhade]

29. There is no such thing as an Atheist, atheism NOT being a religion.

One cannot convert to the lack of belief in unproven gods that is atheism; one can only de-convert from religious beliefs.

(Sole exception being 'strong' atheism, which is belief-there-are-no-gods atheism versus the no-belief-in-gods atheism of most atheists.)

[TRYPHO]

31. Never heard of strong-athiests before

Thanks for the enlightenment. Seems strange to me that weak-atheists (??) are the majority according to you, since I would have imagined the belief-in-no-gods more agreeable to a new-age science-based prove-requiring person, than a don't-have-a-god-of-choice atheist, which sounds almost agnostic.

Anyway, I accept your point on non-conversion compared to de-conversion.

TRYPHO

[Zhade]

45. Not sure where you get "New Age" from - this agnostic atheist doesn't go in for that nonsense...

...any more than I go in for unproven religious myths and gods!

It's all about the evidence. Since the professed gods of humanity's religions utterly lack any corroborating evidence, I don't believe in them (which is of course quite different from believing gods have been shown not to exist, which is pretty tough for us humans to do).

[greyl]

47. Those New-age Industry marketers are really doing a number on people, eh?

[Crunchy Frog]

32. Nothing at all will convert me.

And I have no interest whatsoever in trying to convert you to the sort of amorphous panentheism that represents my own spirituality.

I'm generally respectful towards, and interested in, other people's beliefs (so long as they don't try to convert me, and don't use them as an excuse to behave badly), but I'm comfortable with my own, and am not open for conversion.

My reasons for my beliefs are that they work for me. I have enough respect for you to think that you've come to the same conclusion about your own beliefs. Just don't declare a religious war on me, and we should get along fine. :D

[TRYPHO]

34. And I dont want to convert you, my friend...

But I wanted as much factual info as possible before seeking the wisdom of other options. If someone asked me what the pro's and con's of X were, I wouldn't have much of a clue. I know next to nothing about any religion except my own, and I thought it might be interesting to get some positives/negatives of other religions (And atheists, God help them :-) ) but perhaps I put my question across in too flammable a manner (lesson learnt for future).

As I say, I don't want to convert or be converted; but I have learnt a lot by hearing some of the positives of other religions/belief-systems/non-belief-systems, and wanted to know more about their bad points AND good points.

Apparently you wont tell me, and if I asked you'd say I should find out for myself out of the repsect you have for me.

Well, thanks, friend.

TRYPHO

[Crunchy Frog]

38. My religion basically has one member in it

and is not looking for converts.

I'm sure that my personal spirituality has alot of cons to it, but I'm not trying to convert anyone to it, so it's really not of anyone else's concern. (And as I mentioned upstream, it's fairly amorphous, therefore not that clearly defined, nor does it lend itself to being described in a quick sound bite.)

I'm not being defensive, it's just that my personal spiritual beliefs are personal. I don't subscribe to any religion, nor am I associated with any religious institution. My spirituality is kind of like my sense of esthetics, simply not up for debate. You may detest the kind of music that I like, or the types of novels I enjoy, but that really means nothing to me at all, since I'm not asking you to share them with me.

I've never really "gotten" the whole proselityzing business. Maybe it's because I don't believe anyone's immortal soul is at stake.:shrug:

[Az]

41. Everyone evangelizes

The trick is recognising it when you are doing it. Do you believe in tolerance and think everyone should just try to get along? Then thats what you are proseltyzing. Unless you become a hermit and leave society you are pressing your ideas and beliefs into the world around you.

[Crunchy Frog]

43. There are some views that I try to convince others of.

Why, I've even knocked on people's doors on behalf of certain candidates for political office.

We all try to persuade others of the correctness of some of our views. There are some of us, however, who believe that there are some areas of belief that really are personal and private. For example, I don't know what your sexual orientation is, and I don't care, and I sure as hell am not interested in trying to persuade you to change. That's kind of how I view spirituality. Of course, you're free to try to convince me otherwise.:)

[Az]

48. See, you just did it

You evangelized tolerance. Fortunately for you I am already one tolerant mofo so I am not going to try to snap your head off for suggesting such a thing. But by representing your beliefs and ideas you are effectively transmitting them into the society around you.

Not even hard core fundamentalists try to push all their beliefs on others. They promote and push specific aspects of their beliefs but they too hold back a lot of their own notions.

Its a forest for the trees kind of thing. Most of our beliefs are so much a part of our life that we don't see it when we attempt to share it with others. And a lot of us are not part of a codefied set of world views that we try to share with others. Fundamentalists are easy to recognise because they have a clearly defined set of beliefs they are trying to press onto other people. Others simply have their own personal views that they live out and broadcast into the world is a much less organized fashion.

[Danger Mouse]

44. I'm not out to convert anyone...

...and if I have a serious spritual discussion with anyone, it will be people that i know are receptive to it. I hate it when people tell others what they should believe, and I REALLY hate it when hell gets thrown in there as a deal maker.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. I don't think it's possible to convert people who are essentially satisfied with

their current belief system. If they're happy as they are, attempts at conversion just annoy them.