So....there is only a 5% chance of the "virgin birth" story being true?

[underpants]

I'm just asking.

This may be why THE CHURCH was so proactive on stomping down science way back when.

[Goblinmonger]

1. That's pretty generous

Of course that 5% assumes that there is a god which puts some serious question on where the hell 5% came from.

[Drifter]

2. I would guess ...

that 5% is infinitely exaggerated.

Cheers
Drifter

[cali]

4. I would guess

it's a matter of faith, rather than one of reason and science.

[Drifter]

34. Indeed ...

for belief is the foundation of religion.

Cheers
Drifter

[moblsv]

3. way back when?

seems they are still agressive in attacking science today as well.

[kikiek]

5. Which virgin birth story? Several existed before Jesus.

[Eurobabe]

6. Not unless Mary was lizard n/t

[Canuckistanian]

16. Parthenogenesis is not uncommon in nature

But it's never been reported in a higher mammal.

Not sure how it would provide any kind of eveolutionary advantage, though.

[hippiechick]

7. One wonders ...

... artificial insemination anyone? It's not like our current society is the pinnacle of the Universe's intelligence ...

or

... maybe Mary and Joseph had done the deed, but, you know, for ... PC reasons ... the writers of the story had to turn it into an 'immaculate conception' because they weren't married yet ...


or

... I heard a blip once that Mary was knocked up by a soldier or someone other than Joseph ...


:shrug: So many theories ...

[Jeffersons Ghost]

46. I wonder about your icon - EYE OF HORUS or EYE OF RE (RA)

The symbol becomes especially intruiging in context with Christianity.

A commonality with Christendom emerges from Isis Cults, in the form of a divine trinity of Isis, Osiris and Horus, who represents the resurrected child-form of Osiris. Several scholars suggest that this trilogy evolves into the Trinity put forth by Augustine, with roots in the Council at Nicea of 325 CE. There are distinct similarities in the related theosophies but glaring differences also exist. Both the Virgin Mary and Isis epitomize mothers of a living god. Horus, like Christ, embody qualities of God the Father and both spent early life in hiding. Just as Jesus became King of the Jews, Horus develops into King of the first unified Egypt. Both dogma promise loyal followers resurrection after death and feature a trilogy but the Christian Trinity differs from the Egyptian Trilogy. Not long after Constantine, the first Christian Emperor of Rome took control of the civilized world; the Holy Trinity gains the clear distinction of representing a triad that bore no specifically female element. In the same period, not only Isis cults but also diverse Gnostic belief systems, perceive a feminine aspect within Divinity. Virgin Mary in Christian theology presents an unattainable yet subservient feminine role. In Hebrew doctrines, which give rise to Christianity, women lack power. Isis, unlike Mary, personifies a goddess with powers, ruling over love and fertility in a sexually balanced trilogy.

[mntleo2]

8. That Is Why It Is Considered A MIracle

...as was the cousin of Jesus, John The Baptist, whose mother was barren and was way past menopause. Another conception like John's was when Abraham's wife Sarah conceived Jfar into her menopause, I believe she was around 70 years old and she conceived Isaac. BTW Abraham was of the city of Ur, which is in modern day Iraq.

I am not saying any of these accounts are historical, I am just saying that these odd conceptions were considered miracles, is all.

Cat In Seattle

[mwb970]

9. The whole story is cockeyed.

It always amazes me how all these miracles and amazing things happen in the Bible, with God on hand at every moment micro-managing everything the characters do: talking to them, parting seas for them, turning them into salt, all kinds of over-the-top stuff.

My question is: what happened? Nothing like any of that seems to have happened since then. No miracles occur today, no seas part, nobody is turned into salt (although I can think of some candidates for that treatment). Where is God now?

It has even occurred to me that some of these stories in the Bible may have been exaggerated, or even made up, as the document was transcribed by believers over the centuries. Every religion has their own Ancient Scriptures, and they wildly contradict each other. How can they all be true? Can any of them be true?

[underpants]

11. You know if you read Revelations it says that the apocalypse will happen..

in the Middle East...

(my response) Well I would be impressed if they had called it happening in Cleveland but let's be serious. It is a book written in a place and ABOUT that place.

[kikiek]

13. I don['t find it unusual since they were fighting there.

I think almost 2000 years of waiting for Jesus to come back should dim anyones belief that he is. Other religions had the same story too it wasn't unusual to the time period.

[KittyWampus]

10. "Virgin Birth" alludes to physiological processes occuring in area of body ruled by Virgo

that would be the intestine where chyle is formed.

A small number of humans become more fully aware of their body's potential and direct it to begin extracting finer, more subtle energies from the food they eat and then incorporating that energy into their physical body.

Look into the Alchemical term "Virgin's Milk"

People make snide references to things contained within religious writings without having any fucking idea what they are talking about and end up looking foolish to those who take the time to understand what has been written by so many ancient cultures throughout history.

[chimpymustgo]

38. Huh?

:shrug:

[mwb970]

43. With all due respect....

If you are going to talk about "physiological processes occuring in area of body ruled by Virgo" (the intestine) and "extracting finer, more subtle energies from the food they eat", you should probably hold back on the snide remarks and obscenities with which you accuse others of "looking foolish".

Just a thought.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

47. In a more reasonable attempt to discern why ancient astrologers began...

Relegating Virgo to the intestines might begin with a clear description of this Harvester of Information, ruled by Mercury. Unlike Gemini, also ruled by the mental planet, Virgo does not quickly taste information, then move on to other intriguing topics. Virgo harvests information to apply it in a practical way, instead of simply skimming through topics that remain in the mouth until they are tossed out in an effort to make interesting conversation. Virgo, in no way deals with virginity, this sign brings a depth of knowledge to the Zodiac, which certainly has little in common with the inexperience attributed to virginity.

[Zhade]

60. Is this the point where you once again tell us how Intelligent Design is science?

Please, regale us with your creationist bullshit again - it's HILARIOUS!

(Like your "logic". Try taking a class in critical thinking someday.)

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. Ah, the joy of mistranslations

The prophesy upon which the "virgin birth" is based is found in Isaiah 7:14b - Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (King James Version)

In Hebrew, the actual language used in writing most of the book of Isaiah, the word is `almah. The actual meaning of `almah is, "young woman who is not yet married." It is used in this way in several other parts of the Old Testament. Most notably, it is nowhere used to denote sexual purity or virginity. Latter translations into English translate this word more correctly, for example, the Revised Standard Version of the same verse: Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. (Incidentally, Isaiah chapter 8 describes the mother as a prophetess contemporary to Isaiah and gives details of the son and why he is significant to the history -- not prophesy -- that Isaiah is here relating.)

Between the third and first centuries BCE, the Hebrew scriptures were translated (poorly) into Greek, in what came to be known as the Septuagent. In this and other passages, the Hebrew word `almah was replaced with the Greek word parthenos, which means "a girl who has not yet started to menstruate." Again, there is no connotation of virginity; the distinction is sexual maturity, not sexual experience. In the few Christian scriptures (all written in Greek) which mention Mary, she is described as parthenos when she conceived Jesus; that is to say, she had not yet reached sexual maturity and so should not have been able to conceive.

It was not until the Septuagent and the Christian Scriptures were translated into Latin that Mary's virginity came to be "concrete scriptural fact." That is because the Greek word parthenos was translated into the Latin word virgo, which means "woman with an intact hymen." Before then, Mary's virginity had merely been supposed because of her youth. Now, according to Holy Scripture (as translated into Latin, that is), her virginity was... um... intact.

[BoneDaddy]

15. Thanks

you saved me alot of writing. It was a mistranslation of virgin and young woman.

[Ellis Wyatt]

18. That's so great

The Bible is treated like this infallible document, but they can't even translate it properly!

Mary Magdalene was a prostitute for a thousand years, and then 50 years ago the church said "Um, yeah, we had her confused with someone else, she actually wasn't a hooker. My bad".

[youthere]

20. I have an ongoing argument with a fundie about biblical inerrancy..

she actually believes a rabbit chews its cud.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. Ask her about Jesus' lineage

You might also want to bring up the dietary laws next time you see her eating a ham and cheese sandwich, and point out that the Bible calls pork to`evah (an abomination), just like homosexuality. If gay sex is such a horrible, unforgiveable sin....

:rofl:

[youthere]

32. I guess a homosexual that likes bacon doesn't stand a chance!

LOL!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

49. which words attributed to Jesus deal with that comment Tech-bear?...

While your later posts reflect it, this one appears to be lacking any real scholorship. Where does Jesus lash out at homosexuality or consumption of pork. Hebrew beliefs that deal with eating the meat, which was not only very dengerous in the past but also the present, according to science, seem well grounded in logic.

[Goblinmonger]

51. He never said Jesus said it

Leviticus says it. So what is the logic behind not putting cheese and meat together (meat of an animal and the milk of the mother that fed it).

And don't forget, this was in response to someone that took the bible literally, i.e. rabbits chew their cud as the bible tells us.

[Goblinmonger]

52. Does she think that bats are birds?

And when determining the area of a circle, she best use 3 as pi and not 3.14.....

[Zhade]

61. Does she also believe they have cloven hooves?

Man, there really IS a sucker born-again every minute!

[TechBear_Seattle]

25. Only in the western Church, interestingly enough

Orthodox tradition describes her as a wealthy woman who was cured of "posession" and after that used her fortune to support Jesus' ministry. She was one of the witness to both the crucifixion and the resurrection, the only person (other than Jesus) to be involved with both events. Tradition tells that she was one of the first Christian missionaries, using her connections of family and wealth to gain leniency of the new movement.

One interesting legend holds that Mary was at a banquet with Emperor Tiberius. During the conversation at dinner, the topic of political rebellion in Judea came up, which led to mention of Jesus. When Mary said that Jesus was killed but then rose from the dead, the Emperor laugh. He picked up an egg from a platter and said that a dead man coming back to life is as likely as this egg turning red. Of course (this being a Christian legend), the egg immediately did just that, which is why red Easter eggs are an Orthodox tradition.

[IA_Seth]

42. Interesting, thanks!

I don't know a lot about the Eastern Orthodox Church, thanks for a little more insight! There is a older fella in the nursing home where my girlfriend works who is/was a father (minister, preacher, whatever) of the Orthodox Church and he is a fascinating guy, always has all sorts of info like this.

[Jacobin]

22. Thank you

Saved me having to dig that up

[Jeffersons Ghost]

24. not to dispute anything you present techBear...

Prior to the translation from Hebrew into Greek, much of the text was likely written in Coptic, which means at least one other translation took place. Without doubt the Torah (Books of Moses) were originally a word-of-mouth Testament. In the narrow sense, Torah represents the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, sometimes called the Pentateuch. In a broader sense, Torah is the entire body of Jewish teachings.

[TechBear_Seattle]

30. At question is not what the Hebrew Scriptures were orignally

By the time the Septuagent was written, all of the books of what is now the Old Testament were written in Hebrew, with a few parts here and there written in Aramaic.

I don't recall any mention of Jewish Scriptures composed in Coptic, though.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

44. actually, I regret use of the word "likely" in my previous post...

No scholorship in my humble studies support that particular comment. Indeed, my humble personal studies begin around Septuagent, with the exception of diversion into the Chaldean Oracles.

From a book, I wrote:
Neo-Platonism designates a period of philosophy beginning with the work of Plotinus and ending with closing of the Platonic Academy by Justinian in 529 CE. Origins of Neo-Platonism lead back to Hellenistic syncretism, which spawns Gnostic and Hermetic traditions. Immensely influencing Platonic thought, syncretism brought Jewish Scriptures into Greek intellectual circles via a translation of the Old Testament, known as Septuagint, between 300 and 200 CE. The encounter between creation narratives in Genesis and cosmology of Plato in Timaeus set in motion a long tradition of cosmological theorizing that finally culminates in the grand scheme of Plotinus in the Enneads. Two important successors, Porphyry and Iamblichus, utilize aspects of the philosophies of Plotinus but neither develops a rigorous approach to match their master. Shortly before closing of the Academy, Proclus bequeaths a systematic Platonic philosophy that in some ways approaches the sophistication of Plotinus. Finally, in writings by Pseudo-Dionysius, a grand synthesis of Platonic philosophy and Christian theology occurs that will greatly influence mediaeval mysticism and Renaissance Humanism.

[Ezlivin]

37. Very good explanation!

I felt like I was back in seminary. :evilgrin:

[J Miles]

14. 5% chance?

How did you arrive at that estimate?

[underpants]

17. Here you go. Welcome to DU too

:hi:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2659241

[Goblinmonger]

23. OK, I completely missed that

and I usually catch allusions. Good one. Thanks for the delayed humor.

[J Miles]

31. Ohhh

I didn't even think of that! I remember now.

Thanks for the welcome.

[Javaman]

35. Joseph the absentee father...

2 years after the birth of jesus...

Things in the Christ household aren't all beer and skittles...

Joseph: I'm going out...

Mary: what? That's the third time this week?

Joseph: well, did you ever think that I'm a little under appreciated around here? It's jesus this and jesus that...

Mary: Joe, he's a 2 year old, he needs a lot of attention.

Joseph: you know perfectly well, that's not what I'm talking about.

Mary rolls her eyes.

Mary: not this again?

Joseph: damn straight, if you hadn't talked me out of telling your parents about that wild night in down at the shore that summer 2 years and nine months ago, none of this would have been an issue!

Mary: are you kidding???? and get stoned to death?

Joseph: I told you I would marry you then...

Mary: yeah right, "mr. I have to go dwarf bowling with my buddies"...

Joseph: you always have to bring that up, don't you?

Mary: it's true.

Joseph: True? what do you know about the truth? Immaculate conception? Bahahaha! that's rich! Prior to meeting me, there was nothing immaculate about you!

Mary: what the hell do you mean by that?

Joseph: they didn't call you the "ceiling rafter counter" for nothing!

Mary: Get out! Get out! I never want to see you again!

Joseph: That's fine by me, you never let me be the father to begin with so what's the difference???

Joseph storms out and slams the cloth door.

Mary sits alone weeping.

She picks up, the crying jesus.

Mary: (to jesus) you so better be worth it.

(you my now flame me for my atheist ways, remember it's all in good fun.)

[J Miles]

40. Haha!

I love it! My fellow heathens at alt.atheism would too. Do you mind if I post a link to this there?

[Javaman]

41. Sure :) nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

45. While not at all familiar with "heathens" as a belief system...

If any Pagans post at that site, please wish them a happy Yule (Winter Solstice) for me. What I find most troubling about many of these comments - based on lack of real scholarship - is that almost all of them bash Christianity, while none of them honor Paganism on such a Holy day (December 21, 2006.) Steeped in rich tradition going back to pre-historic times, Winter Solstice celebrates a time of renewal, where numerous Solar Deities are born or reborn to signal a time of new beginnings.

Atheists, I know and respect, rarely feel a need to lash out at any particular belief system because they are secure in their views, which are valid and protected under the Bill of Rights.

[Javaman]

50. Having been brought up catholic and have since shook myself free of it's guilt bond...

I just have to say, Catholicism is just so ripe for satire. :)

That said, have a happy holiday. I'm doing my part to continue the war on christmas! LOL

:party:

[stevebreeze]

62. I am an Evangelical atheist!

I go door to door and tell people the good word "".

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. check this out....

This OP, like subsequent posts, overlooks some important points.

Even going under an assumption that Jesus is not God, fails to alter at a few material facts: Every word that the New Testament attributes to Jesus is Divine. Furthermore, many of the teachings put forth in the New Testament cross cultural lines to mirror the teachings of Buddha and Confucius.

Was it Gandhi that said, "I have no problem with Jesus, it is people calling themselves Christians that bother me?"

[lectrobyte]

21. Who figured out that percentage? That sounds kind of goofy.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

33. also the "stomping out science" by the Early Church is absurd...

History does not reflect the assumption that there was much conflict between Science and Christianity prior to 400 AD. In fact, in several instances Early Christianity facilitates science. Here's a prime example: "Greek scientific thought had been in the world for a long time before it reached the Arabs, and during that period it had already spread abroad in various directions. So it is not surprising that it reached the Arabs by more than one route. It came first and in the plainest line through Christian Syriac writers, scholars, and scientists."

http://www.aina.org/books/hgsptta.htm

[Az]

27. Is that one of those hat statistics?

You know the one's you pull out of a hat?

[Goblinmonger]

53. I think it was a joke

It was a reference to the fact the thread that 95% of people have premarital sex. Therefore Mary had to be in the 5%.

[jody]

28. Wouldn't parthenogenesis have produced a female child since sperm determine sex? n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

58. Not necessarily.

If it was a case of true hermaphroditism caused by mosaicism, there would have been both sperm and egg, and the sperm would have been XY just as easily as XX. Not that this is at all a likely scenario.

[opihimoimoi]

29. The Virgin Birth story was around for centuries before them Bible writers

put into the story of Jesus...They plagurized/copied/used an ole story as their own...read Merlin Stone's WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN

Science demand proof when accepting something....

Fanatasy demands faith to believe....

[Javaman]

36. Read my post #35. ;) nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

48. why would anyone read conjecture, when this post is available on the board?...

Not to say that your story bashing a particular religion, isn't creative but some believers might find it offensive. Instead of insulting ANYONE'S belief system, why not deal in facts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=103821&mesg_id=103874

[opihimoimoi]

56. In those ole days, women who get children out of wedlock ...get stoned

to death...as you pointed out...so it was ..perhaps, very convenient to get the immaculate conception story going....who the hell knows...?

But for whats its worth, no stories about Jesus exists at his time...its all in the bible writen about 60 years AFTER his death.

All the historians of his time failed to document anything re Jesus....

Most likely its fabricated to sell the idea of a new religion besides them Jew dudes...sure enough it took hold and now we have ukamillion varieties of religions of the Xristian faith....Its all about control and domination....and wealth too. Not too many poor religions these days...

If those ETs were to ever make their presence known and find out what we been through...they would understand why we are committing Planetcide...its through IGNORANCE

Which in turn is the Killer for the GOP...Ignorance that is....

Time to light one up and have a pizza....

[Dorian Gray]

39. Huh?

Am I missing something? I don't know about percentages, or how one would determine a %age chance on the Virgin Birth.

[Zhade]

54. More like .0000000000000000000000000005% - on a good day.

NT!

[Meshuga]

55. Where did...

...you get the 5% from? Is that a chance of pregnancy in the case of a dry hump? :-)

[Crunchy Frog]

57. Is this about the Komodo dragon?

I think it's pretty well established that this is a genuine case of parthenogenesis.

On the other hand, if it's about Mary and Jesus, I think the chances of its being true are far, far less than 5%. Almost astronomically small as a matter of fact. The only plausible scenario that I can imagine is that of Mary being a true hermaphrodite, producing both male and female gametes, managing to fertilize her own egg, and giving birth to a viable, non-deformed child. I think it's almost infinitely more likely that legends were created about Jesus after his death, that were intended to confer a veneer of divinity on him.

[and-justice-for-all]

59. 0% to be the truth of it. nt