Rick Warren is wrong. Hitler was NOT an Atheist.

[Quixote1818]

Well, their is NO evidence he was an Atheist.

I am not an Atheist by any means, but I believe strongly in people telling the truth when speaking about History. I got a little pissed off Sunday watching Meet the Press and listening to Rick Warren (Author of 'The Purpose Driven Life') call Hitler an Atheist when I knew this to be false. I took the time to research the subject tonight and found that a variety of websites give very different opinions on this. However, I think the Straight Dope gives a very un-bias sold answer to this question.

I am going to send this to Media Matters. I hope others will as well. These cheep shots at Atheists really tick me off.

From the Straight Dope:

Snip>>

There is no evidence anywhere that this leader ever professed to anyone that he is an atheist. He and his followers actively campaign against atheism, even to the point of physical force, and this leader allies himself with religious organizations and churches. This is the evidence. So where does atheism fit in?" As Krueger notes, there seems to be no real evidence that Hitler was an atheist. On the other hand, since one could never be sure when he was speaking his real thoughts and when he was simply riling up the masses, it's difficult to say for certain.

An interesting side note: Two of my sources, both of whom are well-versed in WWII history, said something to the effect that Hitler acted as if he had a messianic complex and perhaps believed himself to essentially be a god or the messiah. As one put it, you could certainly make the argument that he was a firm believer in God, if by "God" you mean "Adolf Hitler."

As for your chat-room experiences, well, my friend and source David Gehrig noted that Hitler still sets the gold standard for "easiest rhetorical cheap shot." He related a comment from Usenet that there is an empirical law: As a Usenet discussion gets longer, the probability that someone in it will compare someone else in it to Hitler asymptotically approaches 1. In other words, atheists looking for a quick cheap-shot may claim Hitler was a Christian; similarly, Christians looking for a quick shot may claim he was an atheist. Know what? Hitler was a vegetarian! Oooh, those evil vegetarians! He also recommended that parents give their children milk to drink instead of beer and started the first anti-smoking campaign. (So by the "reasoning" used in these types of arguments, if you are truly anti-Hitler, you should smoke heavily and only give your baby beer!) Better watch out, though he was an oxygen-breather, too! In other words, does it really matter whether Hitler was an atheist or a Christian or whatever? Just because somebody may hold a particular worldview (along with other views) doesn't make him a spokesman for that view, or even remotely representative of others who hold that view. No matter how his madness is painted, he was still evil incarnate.

Link: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

[beam me up scottie]

1. straightdope is as credible as drudge.

I am so sick of this issue.

[Kingshakabobo]

30. Do you have any examples of "Drudge-like" behavior?? nt

[beam me up scottie]

36. It's mostly hearsay and uninformed opinion.

Some of it may come down on this side of the facts, but anyone who uses un-sourced opinions to reach a conclusion about Hitler's beliefs or anything else just isn't credible.

[Kingshakabobo]

47. Ok then. I just wouldn't compare it.....

....to that evil right-wing-shilling closet-case.

[beam me up scottie]

51. Well, you got me there.

My opinion is that he should have done more research before opening up this can of worms, but he is not a right wing schill by any means.

[Kingshakabobo]

196. Whew! Glad we cleared that up.....

I thought, maybe, I missed something. I used to read him every week but that was when I was younger. I voted for Reagan (stupid college kid) when I was younger so I wasn't sure.

I see where you are coming from.

[beam me up scottie]

198. I actually like Cecil.

This is just a subject that's been done to death.

[Kingshakabobo]

200. I must say I've enjoyed this thread.......

.........watching you wade through the "christian bashing" claims.

You are doing a lot of heavy lifting. LOL. I've learned a lot.

Thanks!

[beam me up scottie]

202. Well, it is my turn to persecute them.

I take my Evil Atheist duties seriously. :patriot:

[Critters2]

2. Just for the record, Hitler was NOT a vegetarian. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Perhaps Rick can explain what he meant by this:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Or maybe this:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

[Nikki Stone1]

6. Good post with some real info

I had never heard these before. Thanks

[Warren DeMontague]

4. The "logic" used in these cases is, obviously the good people believe in "God"

and so anyone who isn't a good person must not really believe.

[beam me up scottie]

9. Yep. Just like the snake won't bite them if they really believe.

Actually, I think serpent-handling is under-rated.

We should encourage these people.

And supply them with real snakes, like King Cobras and Black Mambas.

[TexasProgresive]

134. Eastern Diamondback Rattlers aren't real?

[beam me up scottie]

159. Oh, they're real enough.

Just not aggressive or dangerous enough.

Did you ever see them swinging those poor rattlers around over their heads?:evilfrown:

I mean, if you really really really believe your faith is strong enough to save you, God won't let any snake bite you, right?

[frankly_fedup2]

321. What difference does it make what snake they handle. A poisonous

snake is a poisonous snake. Die just as fast. Also, unfortunately, in the backwoods where I live these idiots are still doing this. They also have the nondenominational churches where the preachers speak in tongues and jump from pew to pew. The revivals are the really entertaining ones. The healing, the growing in length of limbs, the saving.

One question I have about these healers. Why is it when they lay their hands on the people they go limp BUT they fall back wards? When Jesus Christ "healed the sick" they fell at his feet.

Also, regarding Hitler (my 2 cents), Pope Pius XII said nothing against the extermination of the Jews by Hitler and his Nazis. They killed the Jews because, at that time, the majority of the businesses (or major money around) belonged to zionists, and he wanted all that money.

Also, Pope Pius XII, known as "Hitler's Pope," is said to have been a Pagan behind closed doors . . . but who really knows the truth?

[beam me up scottie]

322. Um, no. All snakes are NOT created equal. Trust me, I know.

One bite from the Mamba or Cobra and they'd never make it to the hospital.

They probably wouldn't even make it to the car.

They use Eastern Diamondbacks because they are non-aggressive and will do just about everything a snake can do before finally striking back in self defense.

That's what that rattle is for. It means: "Stay away from me, you idiot! Can't you see I'm a poisonous snake?" :D




Dang, you do know your bible, don't you?

I bet you'd be a lot of fun in church.

I don't live too far from you, maybe we should drop in on them sometime?

[frankly_fedup2]

323. I didn't know we lived that close to each other. I could take you to

a few churches that you would not believe. They also drink Arsenic. Do you think it is watered down?

Aren't you the one that gave me the URLs to The Urantia Handbook? Or was that Peanutbrittle?

[beam me up scottie]

326. Uh, that definitely wasn't me :)

I have no idea if they water down arsenic.

But just like with the snakes, I would suggest they try something a little more potent to REALLY test their faith, though.

Like cyanide or say, polonium-210 .

[Dr.Phool]

5. Hitler was Roman Catholic.

You can find a ton of information at www.infidels.org

Or you can read "Hitlers Pope".

[beam me up scottie]

7. Rick Warren is the vilest of scum. He is a liar and a cockroach.

from Wiki:

Warren made the claim that he is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and is a good friend of President Bush and most of the top Generals at the Pentagon in an email to WorldNetDaily's Joseph Farah.

Jeez, I shouldn't have said that, hell, cockroaches are royalty compared to him.

[Patchuli]

14. 'Wiki' is by no means infallible,

and that being said, I totally disagree. I think Pastor Warren is a good guy. If he misspoke, I'm interested to know more about it but I don't think trashing him upon the authority of a resource as 'reliable' (sic) as Wiki is the way to go. IOW, GIGO. 'Garbage in, garbage out.' :sarcasm:

I do hope this is not turning into one of those Christian-basher things. That game is getting old.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Rick Warren is the one that made the claim. You think he's a "good guy" ?

:rofl:

[Patchuli]

25. That's my opinion

based on more than just reading an internet blog as in your case. I've heard him preach, I've read and followed the Purpose Driven Life. My sister belongs to his church. If he misspoke about Hitler, that was misguided but it certainly doesn't prove some pissy anti-Christo point of view about Pastor Warren as a man or a person.

I believe in live and let live. I am a Christian. Are you interested in actually debating anything or just being mean-spirited?

[beam me up scottie]

29. What's there to debate?

You believe in the NTSF and that Rick Warren is a good guy.

Head meets wall, not interested.

[Patchuli]

38. Why don't you first explain

what NTSF is since I don't always speak in acronyms and hold off on your smarty comments until I know WTF you are talking about?

[beam me up scottie]

46. No True Scotsman Fallacy.

No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking. It refers to an argument which takes this form:
Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

This form of argument is a fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge") is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman"), or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.


Using the context of culture, individuals of any particular religion, for example, may tend to employ this fallacy. The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behaviour. If there is no one accepted definition of the subject, then the definition must be understood in context, or defined in the initial argument for the discussion at hand.

[Patchuli]

92. Well "accepted definition" or not,

a follower of Christ is not a bigot, a racist, a hater or a liar. That is the perception of this Irish/English/Scot/Greek American Christian, whatever "cateogry" that translates out to be.

[beam me up scottie]

94. Oh, please, history is full of millions of bigoted, racist, hating, lying christians.

Read your bible if you want to know where they got their instructions.


Recognize this handsome fella?:

[Patchuli]

98. It's one thing to say you are and one thing to be...

goodnight, bmus.

[beam me up scottie]

100. It's one thing to think and another to know.

I am making no absolute claims, I am refuting them.

[trekbiker]

138. dont forget the long line of bigoted, racist, hating, lying POPES

[beam me up scottie]

160. An inconvenient truth.

:spank: Bad atheist!

[trekbiker]

189. just finished Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion"

a very good read. Up until that book I always considered myself a "strong Agnostic" but in reality I have always been an Atheist. But Dawkins makes a good point in his discussion on probabilities that no one is 100% pure Atheist since there is no way to disprove the existence of god. But just as you can arrive at a 99% probability that life exists on other planets in the universe even though there is no direct evidence you can also arrive at a 99.99999999% probability that god does not exist and so for all practical purposes are an Atheist with just a slight amount of Agnosticism. Unlike the religious believer who is 100% sure that god exists (based on that horrible concept known as "faith")

I wonder how many Atheists are here at DU. Has to be higher than the national average of 5-10%. and a hell of a lot more than over at FR (0% over there I'm pretty sure)

[beam me up scottie]

193. I discovered that after * was installed and used his inaugural speech to alienate non-christians.

I am both an implicit and explicit atheist depending on the god or gods in question.

Add yes, there are a lot of atheists on DU, even though many of us can't come out of the closet outside of here.

[Danger Mouse]

197. ...and that's terrible.

There should be an atheist pride movement.

[trekbiker]

208. thats the problem with Freethinkers..

organizing Atheists, Agnostics, Freethinkers... near impossible. Like herding cats. we're just too damn independent and rational. But that could change if the religious whacko right and thier NeoCon pimps ever succeed in eliminating the separation of church and state (basically destroying our constitution)

[Quixote1818]

35. He seemed like a decent guy on Meet the Press

However, I did get the impression that he was prejudice against non-believers. He went after Atheists pretty hard, and mostly with disinformation. It's a shame that everyone listening to that program probably came away thinking Atheists were responsible for most of the deaths caused in the last 100 years. One should be very careful before making such statements. He seemed to want to breed a prejudice against non-believers and that is not cool.

Compared to Pat Robertson or James Dobson, Warren is 100 times better. He still needs to work on getting his facts correct and he needs to be called out on what he did.

[johnaries]

8. Hitler was a Christian, and Nazism was a Christian movement.

"Gott Mit Uns!"

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. Yes indeed. "Gott Mitt Uns". Only atheists would come up with that slogan.

:crazy:

[JVS]

49. Gott mit uns is Prussian slogan that had been there for hundreds of years.

The Nazi's didn't come up with it.

Assuming it to be an endorsement of Christianity is like assuming that our government endorses freemasonry because of the symbols on the $1 bill. You could however say that an officially atheist government would likely discontinue the tradition.

[Critters2]

40. That'd be interesting news to Christians who were arrested for standing against the Nazis

Neimoller and his ilk.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. I'm sure the atheists and freethinkers who were killed by the Nazis would be equally surprised

to find that he was their responsibility.

[beam me up scottie]

62. And the christians who stood with them?

Oh, but they couldn't be REAL christians, could they? :eyes:

[rebel with a cause]

70. Don't want to argue but here is my thoughts on the matter.

Hitler was at times a so called "Christian" who was known to also hate Christians. There were Christians in the concentrations camps with the Jews, and they were there because of their religion. He was raised a Catholic but went against that religion in his early teens and never was known to attend a mass,etc (or so I have read).

He was considered a neo-pagan by some, some of his henchmen were, but that he was has been reputed by others. He was thought to have formed his own idea of religion where his god had chosen him to carry out his plan. Hitler was known to have re-invented Jesus to be a Jew hater/fighter and used this to justify his treatment of them to his followers. What Hitler, or any other sociopath really thinks is probably going to remain a mystery to most of us, because they change it daily to suit their own wants and needs.

Okay, here is my point. for atheist to be blamed for Hitler is no different than for Christians on the whole to be blamed for him. There were people who died both at his hands and fighting to stop him that were members of different religions and those who did not belong or believe in any religion. Nazis were sick people who got power, abused it and did a lot of horrible things sixty odd years ago. They were a diverse bunch of white people, but above anything else, they were evil sociopath sickos.

[beam me up scottie]

75. Atheists aren't blaming christians for Hitler.

They're just pointing out the fact that unethical murdering dictators can be (and are) christians too.

There were Christians in the concentrations camps with the Jews, and they were there because of their religion

Got any proof they were sent there because they were christian?

[rebel with a cause]

108. Not on me.

In my studies years ago I read that when invading Norway, I believe it was Norway, some of those thrown into the camps were done so because of their religious beliefs. There was also a special on PBS a few months ago on those in the concentration camps that mentioned this and showed the crosses on some of the prisoners in the photos that distinguished them from the Jews. It could be because they were Catholic, I am not sure. I only know the piece was to show how in the camps the two groups, the large Jewish population and the later smaller Christian population co-existed, and died, without any animosity toward each other. I wish I remembered the name of that program also, but unfortunately I do not. Sorry, it is just a piece of knowledge I have without any way at the moment to back it up.

[beam me up scottie]

113. Oh, I'm not refuting the fact that christians died along with jews,

I just never came across anything in my research that showed Hitler sent them to the camps because of their religio

[kwassa]

175. as historically ignorant as it gets around here

[lvx35]

10. I believe Hitler was an occultist.

He basically had his own faith, which drew on occult beliefs from the Thule society and other sources. His meglomania was at such a level I would strongly anticipate him to belief himself to be the recipient of divine revelation, so whatever he believed was very much his own, not consistent with other faiths. The idea that he was a Christian, knowing full well that Jesus was a jew, makes no sense to me.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Of course you do.

Hitler couldn't possibly be a christian.

[Patchuli]

16. A 'Christian' in name only

kind of like *.

[beam me up scottie]

17. And you can tell that he doesn't believe that Jesus is the son of god how?

The No True Scotsman fallacy is just that, a fallacy. Christians are no better than anyone else.

[Patchuli]

21. Neither of those men

are/were followers of Christ. As for the 'better than' game. Nope, don't play that. I'm not supposed to, per my gospel. All I have to say is that Hitler was not one of us. Professing something doesn't mean you are unless you live it. It's pretty obvious that neither Adolph nor * live/ed it.

[beam me up scottie]

26. Oh, but Hitler DID live it. Just like the Crusaders and the KKK.

You can't possibly know that he didn't believe that Jesus was the son of god, so stop trying to use the NTSF.

Since you can't prove he didn't believe in the christian god, he has as much claim to christianity as anyone else.

[Patchuli]

34. That's a obviously misguided opinion

as living as a Christian doesn't involve rascism and mass murder. I am sorry that you are so prejudiced towards Christians, but the pathetic attempt to lump mass murderers who profess Christianity in an obvious attempt to gain acceptance (as in the two examples I cited previously) as real Christians does not support your position of prejudice towards Christians. I'm sorry you feel this way.

[beam me up scottie]

43. I'm sorry your belief in christian supremacy makes you think you're better than non-christians.

Anyone who claims to believe in the christian god IS a christian unless you can prove otherwise.

Trying to narrow the definition to exclude people who might reflect badly on your religion won't work.

And your belief that certain people aren't good enough to be christian is prejudiced.

[Critters2]

45. That's right. Beam me up Scottie is the one who decides who's a Christian. nt

[beam me up scottie]

48. Nope, individual christians are. And, unless you're omniscient, you can't prove them wrong.

Your claim to christianity is no more valid than any other.

[Critters2]

53. There's no point in having a discussion if there's no accepted definition of the term being debated.

In other words, welcome to my ignore box.

[beam me up scottie]

57. Oh, but there is a definition, it just isn't your narrow and exclusive one.

It's too bad you're not capable of discussing the issue, but I'm not surprised.

Nobody likes to find out they're not special.

[Kingshakabobo]

67. "Nobody likes to find out they're not special."

You hit the nail right on the head.....:thumbsup:

[trekbiker]

142. right on Scottie... n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

65. So by defining all the "bad people" out of Christianity you come to a place where all Christians

are good people.

Wow!

If that's not a tautology, I'm not sure what it is.

[piedmont]

106. Petty response. Not particularly persuasive. nt

[rebel with a cause]

82. I don't claim to be a christian, but your argument has holes in it.

Muslims for example believe in the same god that christians believe in and Jesus is represented in their holy book, so does that make them a Christian in your way of thinking.

I take it that you are an atheist, so does that mean that if someone is a mass murderer and an atheist, then all atheist are the same. But even here there is a difference. There is no definition for an atheist other than one that does not believe in a god or higher being.

A Christian is, the pure definition of one, one who belongs to Christ, is a follower of his (Jesus) teachings. Just saying you are a Christian does not make you one. You can belong to a christian religion, you can belong to a christian church, but that does not make you a true Christian. If you do not follow the teaching of Christ (Jesus) you are not a true Christian.

You can use a religion to start/fight a war, but that does not make you a true believer in that religion. Just as we say the "terrorist" are not true Islamic followers, because their actions go against their religion.

[Critters2]

83. I hope you're wearing your flame-proof suit!

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

88. Are you omniscient? No? Then put the fallacy down and pay attention.

You don't get to redefine christianity to exclude dead guys, 'kay?

Christians have spent the better part of two thousand years persecuting and murdering non-christians.

There are entire museums dedicated to their creative torture devices.

They not only killed for Christ, they enjoyed it.

You don't get to disqualify all of them.

Get it?





Oh, and there's also the NTSF.

No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking. It refers to an argument which takes this form:
Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

This form of argument is a fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge") is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman"), or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.



Using the context of culture, individuals of any particular religion, for example, may tend to employ this fallacy. The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behaviour. If there is no one accepted definition of the subject, then the definition must be understood in context, or defined in the initial argument for the discussion at hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman

When you can prove that YOUR definition of a christian is the CORRECT one, come see me.

[rebel with a cause]

117. I have nothing to prove to you.

I do not defend what has been done in the name of religion. I actually hate it, and thus do not personally believe in organized religion of any kind. But I do not force my beliefs on others. I do find interesting the teachings of Jesus, Muhammad and other prophets, just as I find Marx and other theorist interesting.

As for the definition, just look it up. The meaning of the name Christian is just what I said it is. Belonging to Christ, a follower of Christ. That is why many that now scream out things from the Old Testament as the doctrine they are following cannot in the true sense of the word be called a Christian. Because according to the teachings, Jesus (or Christ as he was referred to) was suppose to put an end to the old ways or the teachings found in the Old Testament, and the old way of hate everyone that is not like us was suppose to end then. Well, it did not and it continues today.

My father was a Baptist minister, my son is somewhere close to being an atheist. I am the link inbetween.

Now for what I can and cannot do, that is not your call. You can disagree with me, just as I disagree with some of what you said, but that does not give either one of us the right to say what the other says or even thinks. 'kay?

[beam me up scottie]

120. It's hard to disagree with the facts.

I am not claiming Hitler was a christian, Hitler made that claim.

So unless someone can prove that he lied about his belief, it doesn't matter what you or I think.

[Patchuli]

95. You are out to badmouth Christians

and are not about to let facts or truth stand in your way. Please don't presume to know me or whatever "prejudices" I may have in your opinion. I accept you whatever the heck you believe. I do believe that I am a lot more open-minded than you are.

[beam me up scottie]

103. I have their actions as proof, I don't need to badmouth christians.

It is not intolerant to point out inherent belief in christian supremacy.

Again, if you want to know where the Crusaders got their instructions, read your bible.

[Patchuli]

177. I see nowhere in this thread

you've manaaged to hijack, where I claimed "Christians are better than other people." You have an uncanny knack of putting the words you wish to attribute to other posters in their mouth, whether or no that person said it.

Another simple blatant point you are missing is that a person claiming to be a Christian doesn't make it so unless they live it, every day of their life. I think it is YOU that are prejudiced and ready to fight with anyone who doesn't cowtow to your belief, or nonbelief.

[beam me up scottie]

178. Again, if you believe that immoral people can't be christians, you believe in christian supremacy.

I use the broad, inclusive and TOLERANT definition of "christian", not the selective one used by people who claim to be morally superior.

From religioustolerance.org:

any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. Included are: the Roman Catholic church; the Eastern Orthodox churches, conservative, mainline, and liberal Christian faith groups; The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons); Jehovah's Witnesses and a thousand or so other religious organizations that identify themselves as Christian. Also included are those who consider themselves to be Christian even though they do not identify themselves with any particular religious group.

***

* To conservative Protestants, a Christian is often defined according to their salvation status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with some of their foundational beliefs: that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be "born-again" to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.

* To Roman Catholics, a Christian is often defined according to their baptism status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with their fundamental beliefs, including their understanding of the Bible, the declarations of many Church Councils, the statements of many popes, and their church's tradition.

* To many in the very early Christian movement, a Christian was defined as a person who was baptized and proclaimed "Jesus is Lord." Their definition was "true" to them because it agreed with their understanding of their religious belief at a time when the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not yet been written and assembled.

And so on, with the remaining definitions.

***
So there is not a single version of Christianity; there are literally thousands. Many of these faith groups believe that they alone are following Jesus' teachings; they are the "true" church. The Roman Catholic Church issued a formal statement to that effect in 2000-SEP. Although many ecumenical efforts are active today, the Christian religion remains split into thousands of denominations -- in essence thousands of varieties of Christians.

Keep it up, though. I've always been fascinated by the hypocrisy of people who accuse others of intolerance while claiming their faith inoculates them from unethical behaviour.

[Patchuli]

190. bmus

Let's not keep it up since you are hardheaded, prejudiced and you don't listen very well. Why do you persist in lumping all Christians in one bag? That can't be done intelligently with any faith or religion by a person.

All people, know matter what they believe, can and do sin. I never said they didn't. Lose the preconceived notions and you could actually have a decent discussion. I was raised Catholic and left the church at age 12. I became a born-again Christian in my late teens. I am no more anything like a Catholic than you are.

I attend a church of no-denomination other than Protestant Christian. Everyone is welcome at our church. They do not push this Left Behind crap which I detest as crap propaganda or any other kind of garbage like that. Please educate yourself as to the term "Christian" before you attempt to throw us all in the same dumpster.

[beam me up scottie]

191. "christian" = someone who believes that Jesus was the son of God.

According to ReligiousTolerance.org, your narrow definition and attempt to exclude others who don't believe EXACTLY as you do is intolerant of your fellow christians.

any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. Included are: the Roman Catholic church; the Eastern Orthodox churches, conservative, mainline, and liberal Christian faith groups; The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons); Jehovah's Witnesses and a thousand or so other religious organizations that identify themselves as Christian. Also included are those who consider themselves to be Christian even though they do not identify themselves with any particular religious group.

***

* To conservative Protestants, a Christian is often defined according to their salvation status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with some of their foundational beliefs: that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be "born-again" to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.

* To Roman Catholics, a Christian is often defined according to their baptism status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with their fundamental beliefs, including their understanding of the Bible, the declarations of many Church Councils, the statements of many popes, and their church's tradition.

* To many in the very early Christian movement, a Christian was defined as a person who was baptized and proclaimed "Jesus is Lord." Their definition was "true" to them because it agreed with their understanding of their religious belief at a time when the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not yet been written and assembled.

And so on, with the remaining definitions.

***
So there is not a single version of Christianity; there are literally thousands. Many of these faith groups believe that they alone are following Jesus' teachings; they are the "true" church. The Roman Catholic Church issued a formal statement to that effect in 2000-SEP. Although many ecumenical efforts are active today, the Christian religion remains split into thousands of denominations -- in essence thousands of varieties of Christians.

[Patchuli]

238. I can say I'm anything, it's the doing that proves it...

You just love this circular argument, all designed to point out how RIGHT you are and how wrong anyone who doesn't agree with you is. Since you know so very little about me other, you are in no position to judge me or submit me for 'judgment' to websites in your vast internet findings. As for tolerance, you could stand to learn some.

You can say you are a Christian, but if you purposely cause the death of thousands, as in say, the cases of * and Adolph Hitler, you are not living as a Christian. I can say I am a fabulously wealthy genius but saying so doesn't necessarily make it so.

[beam me up scottie]

242. You mean like how you said you were being persecuted?

How about if I point out how RIGHT these people were?:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

[opiate69]

243. Oy..

You can say you are a Christian, but if you purposely cause the death of thousands, as in say, the cases of * and Adolph Hitler, you are not living as a Christian.

Again, here you are arbitrarily narrowing the definition of Christianity.. Get some new material

[Patchuli]

258. Like I said before,

a person can call themself whatever they want, it's the actions that prove if it's true or not.

Get yourself some new material, bmus already has your Scotty thing covered. It never ceases to amaze me how people yelling about intolerance are so very intolerant...

[beam me up scottie]

260. "how people yelling about intolerance are so very intolerant"

Right, because it's intolerant to point out the fact that christians aren't any better than the rest of us.

[opiate69]

262. Ain't she something??

I mean, I'm not really even in this fight, and I'm about a whiskey-coke away frm using the ignore feature for the first time.

[beam me up scottie]

265. I keep getting these images of Betty Bowers in my head.

:rofl:

[opiate69]

267. ROTF! I just googled Betty..

I had no idea who you were talking about at first! Brilliant!

[WhollyHeretic]

263. Will you stop persecuting her you damn Evil Atheist

Just lay down and let her walk over you. Damn uppity heathen. How dare you insinuate that christians aren't superior to the rest of us wretches.

Edit: I guess the ™ symbol won't work in subject lines

[beam me up scottie]

266. ROFLMAO!!!

The ™ symbol does work in subject lines but I can't figure out how to do it either.
:freak:

[opiate69]

268. It should be hold down "Alt" then type 0153 on the 10 key pad

[WhollyHeretic]

269. When you do it in the subject line though you get this: ™

It appears as ™ before you click post message but after you post it turns to gibberish.

[opiate69]

272. Weird.. worked for me last night...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=105024&mesg_id=105112

:shrug:

[WhollyHeretic]

273. I've used it before too. I'm not sure why it's not working now

strange :shrug:

[charlie]

276. Don't preview it

The forum software will replace it with a HTML entity if you use preview. If you do use preview, make sure you insert it back into the subject line before posting.

[beam me up scottie]

278. Wow, awesome!

This forum is sooooooooooooo educational.

[WhollyHeretic]

279. It turns out it was because I use Opera as a web browser

Once I tried it with internet explorer it worked :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

284. ™

Yep, that's it alright.

[beam me up scottie]

271. Ah!

The missing formula!

Tankuveddymuch!



on edit, crap! it still doesn't work...

[charlie]

275. ™

[WhollyHeretic]

277. This is strange ™ it works with internet explorer but not with Opera

[beam me up scottie]

280. That's why!

I have Opera and I'm not giving it up for a ™ !

[WhollyHeretic]

287. I love the layout of Opera

Plus I use windows, macs, and linux and can use Opera on all of them. Though I did have a website call me a turd for using Opera with windows. You could only see the message saying that if you were running Opera on windows.

[beam me up scottie]

290. I tried Firefox, it can't compare.

You do realize we'll be accused of persecuting Windows and Firefox users next, right?

Wait for it.;)

[WhollyHeretic]

293. Did you know that Hitler was a Windows user

Stalin liked Macs.
Benito Mussolini was a big Linux supporter.
I hear that Bush loves BSD.

:yoiks: :hide:

[beam me up scottie]

298. BSD?

Is that anything like WMD?

[WhollyHeretic]

301. Not really, BSD actually exists

:D


A Unix based operating system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Software_Distribution

[beam me up scottie]

303. I love that guy!

trotsky uses him for an avatar sometimes.

The green sneakers are killer.

[charlie]

297. Here's where we part ways. Good day, MADAME!

Naw, I like Opera, but prefer Firefox because it's simpler. I was testing out Opera below to see if I could suss out the problem. It's a pretty spiff browser, I actually paid to use it back in its 3.xx days.

[beam me up scottie]

300. I knew it!

They warned me about you people...

Opera's addictive, the right click options, the notes, dictionary, widgets, it rocks.

[charlie]

282. ™

Lessee...

Edit: Huh. That's odd.

[charlie]

286. ™

Trying something...

Edit: Nope. Crappo.

[opiate69]

285. Hehe.. must be Jee-zus fucking with you !

;)

[beam me up scottie]

289. LOL! LOL! LOL!

:rofl:

[frankly_fedup2]

327. Teach us something else. I'm sooooooo board and would love

to learn something new.

Are there a list of numbers that do things with the "alt" key or any other key for that matter????????????

[opiate69]

229. "I see nowhere in this thread

you've manaaged to hijack, where I claimed "Christians are better than other people."

Here's one of your posts from earlier:

Well "accepted definition" or not,

a follower of Christ is not a bigot, a racist, a hater or a liar.

So, in other words, only Non-christians can be bigots, racists, haters and liars.. i.e., Christians are better than non-christians.

[Quixote1818]

54. I agree with you

I wrote the OP and I tried to keep this from becoming a place to attack Christianity. I think as the founding Fathers observed, when anyone has absolute power or any religion has absolute power, the leaders use that power for evil and control. These are the "illogical" outcroppings of most religions due mostly to power and control. Most religions when practiced in their purest form, or at least with some degree of critical thinking can be very beneficial to the world.

The greatest threat to world peace is a lack of tolerance, weather it be religious people hating non-believers or non-believers hating religious people. The key is tolerance and understanding.

[beam me up scottie]

58. And the most tolerant position is that no religious belief makes anyone morally superior.

It's the believers who always choke on that, not non-believers.

[Quixote1818]

80. You may want to think that over a little bit

Warren was responding to a non-believer claiming to be morally superior to Christians. The guy claimed Christians were responsible for most of the evil in the world. To say that non-believers don't ever claim to be morally superior to believers is just flat out false. Both sides do this all the time and all it does is breed division and hatred.

Rick Warren was wrong to say what he said, but the "non-believer" Rick Warren was responding to was misguided as well. I do think Rick Warren's statement was more false than the other guys because it has zero truth to it. At least their is some truth to the fact that most wars are Religious wars, but blaming all Christians on the actions of a few, is as bad as Republicans saying all Muslims are evil because of the actions of a few.

The fact is, all belief's have both good and bad adherents and making sweeping generalizations, such one side is more or less morally superior gets us no where.

I am not defending Rick Warren, I just wanted to point out that both sides claim to be "morally superior". Don't kid yourself.

[beam me up scottie]

84. I stand by what I said, not by what he or anyone else said.

Christians have always claimed they invented morality, and they used that claim to persecute and murder their way through the last two thousand years.

Hypocrites like Rick Warren and several DUers on this thread seem to think it's intolerant to point that out.

Your premise in the op was correct, but the NTSF League Of Country Club Christians used it as an opportunity to validate Warren's position.

They are the ones claiming moral superiority, not atheists.

[Patchuli]

102. But you, bmus

have the prejudice problem. Do you lump all other groups together as well? Gays, straights, races, ages, etc.?

The religious groups you accuse of persecution of non-Christians were not following the teachings of Christ, which doesn't include persecuting your fellow human. I am horrified by the Crusader freaks and the Spanish Inquisition. I don't find them to be in any way related to my nondenominational Christian faith which welcomes all who come. I walked away from a cruel Christian sect (Roman Catholic) toward one of love and acceptance. I find myself with nothing in common with fundies either. Please try to broaden your knowledge of Christians, at least beyond DU threads and Wiki.

[beam me up scottie]

105. Nope, I'm the tolerant one, I'm not claiming moral superiority because of my religious beliefs,

you are.


As for where I got my research, you should try reading the bible sometime, it's a thousand times worse than anything Steven King or Clive Barker could dream up.

[Patchuli]

109. Pardon, me

but bull$hit. I claimed that Rick Warren is a good man. That's all I said. You've written everything else into everyone's words that don't personally agree with you. You may want to check out your responses to me for stating my opinions re: Pastor Warren as a gage of how "tolerant" you are.

Like I said, good night bmus.

[beam me up scottie]

110. Anyone who claims that christians can't behave immorally is a religious bigot.

Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch, how is it intolerant to say that christians are NOT MORALLY SUPERIOR TO NON-CHRISTIANS?



By default, when you make the claim that immoral people are non-christians, you are claiming to be morally superior to non-christians.

[piedmont]

111. It's like they've never heard of SIN or something. Must not be true Christians. nt

[beam me up scottie]

114. Have they never read their bibles???

Pinhead looks like a saint compared to the christians in that book...:banghead:

[Patchuli]

179. "Anyone who claims that christians can't behave immorally is a religious bigot."

And exactly where did I or any other person who doesn't agree with you say that? Stop making things up so you can flame.

You've now made two baldfaced lies about what I've said. Show me where I said either that 'Christians are superior to nonbelievers' or that 'Christians don't sin or behave immorally.' I am a Christian because I am a sinner, not because I am perfect.

Nobody is perfect except God and I know that is not what I said to you. Either put up proof or stop trying to stir a flamewar, please.

[beam me up scottie]

183. Oh brother. When did you change your name to "Anyone"?

And I've explained this several times to you, I couldn't possibly make it any simpler.

You're either incapable of understanding the concept of christian supremacy or you're being purposely obtuse.

[trekbiker]

147. okay... and what Whackjob said this??

Mathew 10

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came
not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[beam me up scottie]

165. And who sent a bear to rip some kids to pieces because they made fun of a bald guy?

The bible needs to have warning stickers on it.

[trekbiker]

207. yeah the old bald man and the bear story.. 2nd chapter 2nd Kings...

the god of the old testament is a psychotic, immature, sexually deviant freak. How any religious person can read the old testament with a straight face is beyond me. And this god is supposedly the same one that instantly changed his behavior in the new testament and sent his only begotten son to die for humanities sins... err.. only Jesus is God so God basically worshipped himself and died for sins that he created in the first place.. uh.. wait.. shit, I'm getting a headache

[beam me up scottie]

211. Me too.

This is why I'm an explicit atheist when it comes to a god who, as Gene Roddenberry put it: "creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.".

[Patchuli]

180. "The key is tolerance and understanding."

You are so right. I also have to remember what other Christians have told me over the years, we get persecuted for our belief. We always have and we always will be. I love this picture I have of Jesus with the words "I never said it would be easy. I just said it would be worth it."

I understood the purpose of your OP.

[beam me up scottie]

182. You're being "persecuted"? How dare you make that claim in a thread about the Holocaust?

The ignorance and arrogance of that statement is stunning.

[Patchuli]

186. Persecution ranges in degrees

from death and imprisonment all the way down to people who just have to fight and argue with you. Learn a bit more about the life of a Christian, please before making assumptions. Rightwing fundie extremists with who I have absolutely NOTHING IN COMMON are all you see. There are leftwing, liberal Christians but some folks just can't seem to grasp that.

Your continued criticism and arrogance in thinking you know what I believe or say is a form of persecution. You will note that I have not once commented on your spirituality, let alone criticized it. A friend of mine who is a nonbeliever makes cracks like "Why do you want to waste a perfectly good Sunday morning in church." That is a mild form of harassment aka persecution. He knows it's none of his frigging business to say it but he feels free, just the same. I of course, laugh it off but it gets old. It's not like I'm telling him at any time that he may burn in hell for his nonbelief or would I ever.

Here's a fresh thought for you; if you expect tolerance, be sure to give it yourself!

[beam me up scottie]

188. Now I'm persecuting you? Are you fucking serious???

Persecution ranges in degrees
from death and imprisonment all the way down to people who just have to fight and argue with you. Learn a bit more about the life of a Christian, please before making assumptions. Rightwing fundie extremists with who I have absolutely NOTHING IN COMMON are all you see. There are leftwing, liberal Christians but some folks just can't seem to grasp that.

Actually, you do have several things in common, you both claim to be the "real christians", you both use the bible to support your claim, and you both think you have the omniscience to judge whether or not others are christian.

Your continued criticism and arrogance in thinking you know what I believe or say is a form of persecution. You will note that I have not once commented on your spirituality, let alone criticized it. A friend of mine who is a nonbeliever makes cracks like "Why do you want to waste a perfectly good Sunday morning in church." That is a mild form of harassment aka persecution. He knows it's none of his frigging business to say it but he feels free, just the same. I of course, laugh it off but it gets old. It's not like I'm telling him at any time that he may burn in hell for his nonbelief or would I ever.

I criticized christians who think they're better than others and you are the one who pretends to know what others believe.

My saying that your claim to christianity is no more valid than anyone else's is not intolerant.

In fact, it's exactly the opposite.

A friend of mine who is a nonbeliever makes cracks like "Why do you want to waste a perfectly good Sunday morning in church." That is a mild form of harassment aka persecution.

In a country where people are beaten to death for being gay by members of YOUR religion, who own everything and make all the rules, you claim to be persecuted by a friend who cracks wise about your faith and a person who disagrees with you regarding the premise that christians are morally superior to non-christians.

How revolting.

Here's a fresh thought for you; if you expect tolerance, be sure to give it yourself!

But I do, I have been saying all along that people are neither morally superior or inferior because of their religious beliefs or lack of them.

You're the one who's been arguing that point.

[Danger Mouse]

199. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

BMUS, I always knew you had it in you. :eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

217. That's the most elastic definition of persecution I've ever seen...

"from death and imprisonment all the way down to people who just have to fight and argue with you."

Wow. Just wow.

[beam me up scottie]

240. Here's a little something to help you separate the "degrees" of persecution:

PERSECUTION:








PERSECUTION:








PERSECUTION:





.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.






NOT PERSECUTION:








NOT PERSECUTION:








NOT PERSECUTION:














Where do you want me to send the flowers and sympathy card?

[Danger Mouse]

241. BMUS...please, please tell me...

That Fred Phelps didn't get to erect that vile monument to hate...please...please...my fragile mind is teetering on the brink here!!!

[beam me up scottie]

245. I think he's still trying.

He's sued several other counties for the "right" to erect his "memorial".

[Danger Mouse]

249. What a fucking scumbag...

...the worst kind of Christian, him and his entire brood of hate-filled psychopaths...making a mockery of the young man's suffering like that...protesting soldier's funerals...his evil never ends...he's like some kind of devil...ugh...

[beam me up scottie]

250. See, you get it.

He doesn't represent christians or christianity, he's just a vile hateful creature who happens to believe in the christian god.

[Danger Mouse]

251. Yeah, I know...

but the problem is that he still exists...and it makes me want to weep :cry: and puke :puke: at the same time.
There are so many evil, loathsome, vile people in the world...so much suffering...I can't take it...

[beam me up scottie]

252. I think he does a good job.

Extremists like him turn almost everybody off.

It's like holding up a mirror so that homophobes can see what we see when we look at them.

[Danger Mouse]

253. Yeah, but...

...homophobes just distance themselves from him, dig themselves deeper into their ignorance, and feel even better about it...'I love the sinner, but hate the sin, at least i'm not like HIM!'
He hasn't changed any minds. Just brought a paritcular kind of ugliness to light...some vile people are attracted to it, others revolted...unfortunately, the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' crowd can't see the similarity between themselves and fred phelps...and his existence only causes them to further distinguish in their mind between him and them.

[beam me up scottie]

254. I think you'd be surprised.

He made a lot of people around here very uncomfortable when he showed up.

Several of the guys I work with were very critical of his "beliefs", even though they are creationists who vocally oppose gay marriage.

[Danger Mouse]

255. Exactly...

most people hate him...but refuse to see how they are similar to him!

[beam me up scottie]

256. That's a job for your friendly neighborhood atheist.

Compared to getting a 40 year-old to listen to MLK Jr's "I Have a Dream" speech for the first time, holding up a mirror is nothing.

[Danger Mouse]

281. I suppose so...

as for me...the NyQuill is doing its magic, so it's bedtime...goodnight, and thanks as usual, for great discussion

[beam me up scottie]

291. Sleep tight!

Hope you feel better. :hug:

[Patchuli]

259. I've never seen so much energy

expended on something you claim to be so tired of. Once again, you misunderstood what is said to you.

Good night, bmus. Who knows, maybe Scotty will hear you...!

[beam me up scottie]

264. Misunderstood? I don't think so. And I quote: " Persecution ranges in degrees

Persecution ranges in degrees from death and imprisonment all the way down to people who just have to fight and argue with you.

Your continued criticism and arrogance in thinking you know what I believe or say is a form of persecution.

A friend of mine who is a nonbeliever makes cracks like "Why do you want to waste a perfectly good Sunday morning in church." That is a mild form of harassment aka persecution.

[Orrex]

236. I'm sorry--it sounded like you said "Christians are persecuted"

We're talking about Christians, right? Persecuted? I don't think so.

Sure, non-Christians might enjoy pointing out the myriad inconsistencies of Christianity and the bible, and we might not want to see the decalogue engraved on every public edifice in the country, but that's a far cry from persecution. In order to be persecuted, you have to be in a position to be persecuted. When you're the overwhelming majority of the population and you control just about all of the government and your saber-rattling can steer public policy, manipulate retail practices, and forcibly tweak the content of the public airwaves, then you're not persecuted. Sorry that it irks you that some of us don't believe that Godson was nailed to a telephone pole 2,000 years hence.

But persecuted? Nah.

I know that almost all Christian believers aren't the caricature bible-thumping whackos we hear stories about, but the fact remains that Christians enjoy a position of privilege in the US that makes them frankly immune to persecution, absent some massive and fundamental shift in our country's religious demographics. Heck, we can't listen to ten minutes of Congressional floor-speeches without being reminded that we're a Judeo-Christian nation. If that qualifies as persecution, then it's far easier to be persecuted than I realized.

I suppose that I was persecuted this evening when the video store didn't have the DVD I wanted. And that guy who turned without using his signal? He persecuted me. My cat just took a big, stinky dump in his litter box--clearly he's persecuting me, too...

[Patchuli]

283. Persecution can be severe

as in bodily injury or as simple as being harassed as with my friend who bugs me for going to church. It can be as simple as you thinking you know what "irks" me when you don't know me. It has nothing to do with Christians in America these days. There are many different paths of thought and practice for Christians. I don't belong to the warmongering, policy-forcing kind of church that pushes their belief down others' throats.

If you follow Christ, you will be bugged about it by someone somewhere. The lack of tolerance here on DU considering we are supposedly progressive and liberal is simply amazing. The fact that there are fundies and then there are just plain people who have a faith is overlooked. I express an opinion and get haranged for a good while, yet am I preaching to others that their way of life is wrong? Nope. Was I evangelizing? Don't think so. Therefore, it looks like intolerance is directed towards me for having an opinion, namely about Rick Warren and the fact that * and Hitler were bullshit 'Christians.' It's not the talk but the actions.

If Dems can keep a majority with the amount of discord among us, it will be a miracle...

[beam me up scottie]

288. Hyperbole, anyone?

It can be as simple as you thinking you know what "irks" me when you don't know me.

If you follow Christ, you will be bugged about it by someone somewhere.

The lack of tolerance here on DU considering we are supposedly progressive and liberal is simply amazing.

Therefore, it looks like intolerance is directed towards me for having an opinion, namely about Rick Warren and the fact that * and Hitler were bullshit 'Christians.

:nopity:

[Orrex]

309. By your definition, everything is persecution

More specifically, you identify as persecution the simple voicing of a differing opinion.

It can be as simple as you thinking you know what "irks" me when you don't know me.

Sorry, but that's a wild exaggeration. Obviously I don't know you, but by your own statements within this thread you make it clear that your friend's comments are bothersome to you (a la "they get old" or however you put it). I suppose you're trying to accuse me of stereotyping, that I'm generalizing about you based on my perception of generic Christians. Not so--I'm only replying to the substance of your posts, such as it is.

If you follow Christ, you will be bugged about it by someone somewhere.

Well, tough toenails. If you do anything, you will be bugged about it by someone somewhere. That's not persecution; that's the nature of diversity, since diversity doesn't equate to a welcoming embrace of diverse opinions. Freedom-from-persecution doesn't mean that no one will disagree with you or criticize your arguments, you know.

I express an opinion and get haranged for a good while, yet am I preaching to others that their way of life is wrong? Nope. Was I evangelizing? Don't think so. Therefore, it looks like intolerance is directed towards me for having an opinion, namely about Rick Warren and the fact that * and Hitler were bullshit 'Christians.' It's not the talk but the actions.

Well, since that's irrelevant to the point I'm making, I don't need to address it. I'm not commenting on your statements re: Hitler or Warren. Instead, I'm simply taking issue with your melodramatic definition of persecution, about which you've given me no reason to change my opinion.

[Patchuli]

310. Call it whatever you like,

but because you are playing with semantics, I will use the term harassment. Here's the Merriam-Webster's definition of persecute since some on this thread think it refers only to injury/death, etc. You will notice it covers just disturbing the peace of mind and IRRITATE(ing) people as well. As you can see, the example you used *is* covered.

persecute
One entry found for persecute.
Entry Word: persecute
Function: verb
Text: 1 to cause persistent suffering to <people who were persecuted simply for practicing their religious faith> -- see AFFLICT
2 to disturb the peace of mind of (someone) especially by repeated disagreeable acts <she likes to persecute her sister with pointless, annoying questions at inopportune times> -- see IRRITATE 1


When I quit smoking, I was harassed by my friends who still smoked for it. Although that is very mild form of harassment, they hoped that it would be enough for me to come back into the fold and continue to ruin my health with them.

When I returned to church after many years' absence, I had/have friends who don't believe and think it's a waste of time. It's none of their business that I attend and believe and try to follow the teachings of Christ, but they still feel the need to ridicule my belief, just like nonbelievers on this thread.

Call it whatever you like but if I taunted the nonbelievers here that they were "going to hell" for their lack of faith, then perhaps the crap slung at me for my opinions might be deserved. As it is it just leaves me thinking that the "brights" or whatever they call themselves are a bunch of intolerant, judgmental ignorants with a need to feel superior to others.

I still believe in live and let live. Too bad others, regardless of the state of their belief in a higher force, can't seem to do that.

[Orrex]

311. Even your cited definition doesn't really support your case

Both definitions point out the persistent and repeated nature of the irritation as essential to persecution, and even in this you're stretching it.

The convenience store down the street never stocks Zowie Brand Comic Books, even though the proprietor knows that I like them. Therefore, his repeated and deliberate refusal to accommodate my wishes qualifies as persecution.

Do you see how that might blur the issue to the point of futility?


FWIW, I'm sorry that some people give you a hard time about your beliefs, and for that matter I posted a poll a few days ago about the idiocy of the term "Brights" as a designator for atheists/freethinkers/rationalists. But your eagerness to attack anyone who doesn't make an overwhelming display of support for your beliefs suggests to me that you have tolerance issues of your own, especially when you aggressively justify your intolerance on the basis that you feel you're being persecuted.

[Patchuli]

313. Orrex, that is merely your opinion

as it does cover affecting a person's peace of mind and I have noticed over the years that people do persistently and repeatedly bug me and other Christians I know because we believe and attend church. I think Merriam Webster's definition exactly fit what I'm talking about. Here's the link so you can look for yourself. http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus?book=Thesaurus&va=persecute

As for your comic book, that is a silly example so I won't bother.

I don't know what to call people who don't have a faith in some higher force, so I used "bright" just because some of them do. As for your assertion that I am "intolerant" and "aggressive" about anything on this topic, that is horseshit. I'm not interested in pushing anything on anyone else nor am I interested in having their belief or nonbelief pushed on me. I think some of the posters on this thread confuse all Christians and really don't know much at all about the myriad differences between Christians. If they did, they wouldn't bring up that lunatic Fred Phelps at every turn.

That said, I still like Rick Warren and don't care if people on this thread like it or not. As I said before, there are quite a few posters on this thread who fall into the 'intolerant' range simply for jumping on others who think differently than they. The circular argument got old and my ignore list grew unfortunately.

[opiate69]

314. ....

No one here is "bugging you" for attending church.. people are, rightly, calling you on your smug superiority complex.

[NMMNG]

316. Persecuted?

In what fantasy land are Christians persecuted? How can a group that comprises around 80% of the nation be persecuted? (And if you're so fragile that you consider somebody debating with you about your religion on a RELIGION DEBATE BOARD to be persecution you need help.)


The fact is that Christians have so many privileges that people of other religions and the non-religious don't have that any time their privileges are slightly restricted or even merely questioned they yank out the persecution card. Funny how they don't give a damn about how everybody else feels when they're running roughshod over the nation for their own benefit.



You don't know the first thing about persecution.

[WhollyHeretic]

247. Persecuted?

:spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl:

-How many presidents have been non-christian?

-How many serious presidential candidates have been non-christian?

-When exactly have we had anything but an overwhelming majority of christians in the house and senate?

-When has the large majority of the population not been christian?

-What is that book that people have to swear on when in court? I think it's a Richard Dawkins text...

-How does the Pledge of Allegiance go?

-What is it says on our currency? "In godless heathens we trust"?

-How many times have you been to a graduation/formal ceremony where god wasn't invoked?

-What sitting vice president and future president said "No, I don't know that christians should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Oh wait I think he said atheists not christians...

[Quixote1818]

22. I think he probably was a Christian but I can't say so with 100% certainty

Many of the founding fathers tried to pass themselves off as Christians when in fact they were humanist free thinkers. Hitler may have been a public Christian but in private had very different religious beliefs. Unlikely, but possible.

Even if Hitler was a Christian, Jesus didn't teach his followers to eradicate the Jews. I don't think we can blame Jesus and Christianity for the actions of Hitler, however Christians, or any kind of fundamentalists have a higher probability of killing in the name of there religion.

Certainly, it was a climate of Anti-Semitism in Germany that allowed Hitler to kill millions of Jews. Their definitely was no climate of Atheism in Germany.

[beam me up scottie]

32. The founding fathers didn't try to pass themselves off as christians.

And no one is trying to blame Jesus and christianity for Hitler.

I agree with your other points, though, and add that Martin Luther had a lot to do with Hitler's anti-semitism.

[LanternWaste]

153. I think you may be correct in avoiding the certainty of the absolute

I think you may be correct in avoiding the certainty of the absolute. One must look at a person's actions and ask if they fall into or out of the fundamental tenets of a religion or philosophy to better understand if that person was indeed a disciple of the religion or philosophy in question. And even that is merely evidence rather than proof.

Yet in the final analysis do we give greater weight to a man's words or deeds?

[China_cat]

15. I guess you haven't noticed that there are plenty of

evangelical 'christian' organizations who believe that they will be commanded by god to slaughter the Jews when the time comes? They don't countenance the fact that Jesus was a Jew...he was the 'founder' of christianity so, of course he was a christian.

btw, you're right (partly) about Hitler's occultism. However, it was very firmly mixed with christianity and only became more evident (and more important) in the latter days of his 'reich'.

[lvx35]

27. I've never heard that at all.

I've heard Evangelicals who believe Israel will be consumed in a great conflaguration at the end times, but I have never heard of evangelics plotting to slaughter all the jews. Where are you getting that from, out of curiosity?

[China_cat]

33. You can start with the video game

'Left Behind: Eternal Forces'...convert or kill Jews and atheists. Promoted heavily to 'christian' children.

Pat Robertson..."the only thing Jews are good for are to bring as sacrifice to the lord".

Come south some time and listen to the rhetoric. It'll make you sick.

[Critters2]

37. And all Christians believe those things.

Sure we do.

There's a rule against making broad generalizations. I'm guessing you forgot.

[opiate69]

41. Reading is fundamental...

I guess you haven't noticed that there are plenty of
evangelical 'christian' organizations who believe that they will be commanded by god to slaughter the Jews when the time comes?

Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time finding exactly where China_cat claimed all christians "believe those things"

[Kingshakabobo]

73. The only broad generalization was the "all" in your strawman. nt

[China_cat]

136. I never said that. Don't put words in my post that aren't there.

I said "I guess you haven't noticed that there are plenty of evangelical 'christian' organizations who believe that they will be commanded by god to slaughter the Jews when the time comes? They don't countenance the fact that Jesus was a Jew...he was the 'founder' of christianity so, of course he was a christian."

Even "plenty" does not come close to 'all' and 'evangelical' (dominionist) does not equal christian.

And you illustrate why the assholes of the religion are seen as speaking for all.

[Patchuli]

292. Christians are all alike

didn't you get that meme? :tinfoilhat:

[opiate69]

294. Quit it with the strawmen, Einstein..

no one on this board ever claimed Chrstians are all alike

"Get off your cross.. we need the space to nail the next fool martyr"

[beam me up scottie]

299. WWJMUSA?

Who would Jesus make up shit about?

[beam me up scottie]

295. "Christians are all alike, SQUAWK!" "Christians are all alike!"

[JVS]

44. I've heard some dumb Robertson quotes, but I need some kind of link for that one.

And not just one from www.stupidshitpatsays.com but something that big ought to have been covered by a newspaper

[China_cat]

135. It was...several of them.

I'm trying to find the cites for you but it didn't happen yesterday so finding them isn't easy. It had to be at least 10 years ago on the 700 club. Broadcast far and wide.

[lvx35]

74. okay left behind people. right....

interesting:

Don't expect the traditional power-ups, either. You can't upgrade armor or increase attack points. In "Eternal Forces," you can summon a gospel choir or pray to gain spirit points. If you're part of the Anti-Christ, summon a rock band or curse to pump up your team.

So I can play the anti-christ too? hmm. hehe. Well, at least its fair and balanced!
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/16283782.htm

[WinkyDink]

143. Of course, the refutation of THAT stupidity is: Would Christ actually be so

egomaniacal as to worship HIMSELF?

[johnaries]

18. Perhaps you should read this article.

http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier.php

We often hear accusations that "Adolf Hitler was an atheist and look what he did!" The idea that Hitler believed in God, that he even claimed Christ as his own, is so shocking to people that they will go to any lengths to deny it. But the notion that Hitler was an atheist has already been soundly refuted.1 He was unmistakably a god-fearing Christian.

It is claimed that the quotations and evidence of Hitler's belief were a ruse, propaganda for the benefit of his Nazi followers. This is hardly plausible. After all, if Hitler had to pretend to be a god-fearing Christian to sway his Nazi supporters, that means Nazis had to have been god-fearing Christians. Certainly, Nazism in general was no kind of atheism. It was without doubt a Christian movement, even rabidly anti-atheist. Like the McCarthyites that came after them, the Nazis equated atheism with their arch-enemy Bolshevism. Atheism was among their many charges against the Jews. Even the SS wore Gott mit uns, "God is with us," on their belt buckles.2

This was the official position of the Nazi party. And it went to the very same extremes that we see among Christian Fundamentalists in America today. For instance, read this excerpt from the 24th principle of the Nazi party, from the infamous Twenty Five Points (1920):

We demand the freedom of religion in the Reich so long as they do not endanger the position of the state or adversely affect the moral standards of the German race. As such the Party represents a positively Christian position without binding itself to one particular faith.
Likewise, the 1933 Nazi Concordat with the Catholic Church, Article 21:

Catholic religious instruction in elementary, senior, secondary and vocational schools constitutes a regular portion of the curriculum, and is to be taught in accordance with the principles of the Catholic Church. In religious instruction, special care will be taken to inculcate patriotic, civic and social consciousness and sense of duty in the spirit of the Christian Faith and the moral code, precisely as in the case of other subjects.
So there can be no doubt that the Nazis were thoroughly and devotedly Christian, eager to inculcate Christian theism for future generations.

Or perhaps this article from About.com:
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/p/NaziChristian.htm

The truth is that German Christians supported the Nazis because they believed that Adolf Hitler was a gift to the German people from God. German Christianity was a divinely sanctioned religious movement which combined Christian doctrine and German character in a unique and desirable manner: True Christianity was German and True German-ness was Christian.

or this collection of sources:
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Hitler's Christianity

To deny the influence of Christianity on Hitler and its role in World War II, means that you must ignore history and forever bar yourself from understanding the source of German anti-Semitism and how the WWII atrocities occurred.

By using historical evidence of Hitler's and his henchmen's own words, this section aims to show how mixing religion with politics can cause conflicts, not only against religion but against government and its people. This site, in no way, condones Nazism, Neo-Nazism, fascist governments, or anti-Semitism, but instead, warns against them.

You can get back to me when you've finished and tell me why you still believe he was an "occultist".

[Critters2]

23. The Barmen Declaration was a reaction to the "German Christian" movement

declaring it a heresy.

Maybe Christians should decide what a Christian is.

[johnaries]

39. "Maybe Christians should decide what a Christian is." OK.

Which Christians should decide? Rick Warren? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? Billy Graham? The Pope?

Actually, isn't that exactly what the Christian Adolf Hitler did - decided who were Christian and who wasn't?

[Critters2]

42. There were Christians who stood against Hitler. Not that they'd be respected by

atheists on DU. But they existed, nonetheless.

[opiate69]

50. And that somehow proves Hitler wasn't a True Christian™ ?

[trotsky]

163. Sure they'd be respected.

And respected a hell of a lot more than people who arrogantly insist a bad person could NEVER be part of their club.

[JVS]

91. Since when did Hitler decide/ care who was and wasn't Christian?

It seems the only thing he cared about was who was Aryan, who was non-aryan (Slavs, Gypsies, Jews (ethnically. no mercy if they had converted to another religion or were secular)), and who was socially undesirable (Gays, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses, the retarded, freethinkers, etc.)

[beam me up scottie]

93. Can you answer his question?

Who gets to decide who's christian?

[JVS]

101. Whoever has authority to excommunicate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication

And I was commenting on the final part of his post "Actually, isn't that exactly what the Christian Adolf Hitler did - decided who were Christian and who wasn't?"

I want to know when Hitler went into the deciding who is and isn't Christian business.

[beam me up scottie]

107. Hitler wasn't excommunicated and he never denounced his christianity.

And since we can't prove otherwise, his claim that he believed in the christian god is as credible as any other christians.

[JVS]

112. You seem very happy to take him at his word rather than establish that he was practicing

Did Hitler attend Mass regularly? Did he go to confession? Did he take the sacrament? Were last rites administered to him before his death? It is still quite possible that Hitler was what people often refer to as lapsed.

[beam me up scottie]

115. You must be joking.

My father renounced catholicism when he was 8 years old, but they still count him.

If you are claiming Hitler wasn't a christian, the burden of proof is on you to back it up.

[JVS]

119. I'm not claiming that he isn't one. You are making a conflated claim

You are claiming that he is a member of the Roman Catholic denomination of Christianity. This is pretty clearly the case. Baptised, no excommunication, no known conversion. We have biographical data to back that up. But you are conflating that with the idea that he believed in Christ. For that there can be very little evidence as people often claim things they don't do. One way to collect better evidence is to check up on if Hitler was doing his Christian "homework" so to speak is to check on his participation in the rites of his church. Since you are so keen on the idea that Hitler was a faithful Christian, the burden is on you to show evidence of his participation in the religion.

Just because the RCC counts your father as a member doesn't make him one of the faithful.

[beam me up scottie]

121. Nope, read my posts again, Hitler was the one who claimed he was a christian.

You need to prove he wasn't.


You can start here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2988911&mesg_id=2989295

Just because the RCC counts your father as a member doesn't make him one of the faithful.

It doesn't mean he's been excommunicated, does it?

[JVS]

124. You need to prove you points rather than just state them as fact

"1.) Hitler claimed to believe in the christian god.

2.) Hitler never denounced his christianity.

3.) Hitler was never excommunicated from the catholic church.

4.) Hitler mentioned his religious beliefs many, many times throughout his adult life, both in public and in private.

5.) Not one single christian and/or historical revisionist has been able to prove that Hitler stopped believing in the christian god."

1,3. should be easy to verify.

2. is difficult because it's a negative. But ultimately unimportant for your quest to prove your claim because your evidence should really be focused on #4

4. a listing of these "many, many times" is needed, not just your claim

5. this is just your comment which steps outside of the point. You are essentially saying "My argument is right because nobody can prove it otherwise"

I don't care one way or the other and am not arguing that Hitler was an atheist. I am unsure of what Hitler's religious views were, but your argument is not very convincing and although it has definitely been established that Hitler was involved in christianity early in his life, evidence from his later life needs to be presented and not merely asserted on the authority of the words of beam me up scotty

[beam me up scottie]

126. You asked for it...

evidence from his later life needs to be presented and not merely asserted on the authority of the words of beam me up scotty

Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity

A damaging blow to any apologist argument against Hitler's Christianity comes from the fact that nowhere in any known source does Hitler denounce his Christianity or Jesus.

If one is to use the Table-Talk as evidence against Hitler's Christianity, then where does it appear? Nowhere in Trevor-Roper's introduction does he argue that Hitler was not a Christian.

Nowhere in the conversations of Table-Talk, does Hitler denounce his Christianity or Jesus.

On the contrary, Hitler's (or Bormann's editing) aims to show that the Church form of religion produces lies, and that the original Christian religion was an incarnation of Bolshevism, from a falsification from St. Paul. But whenever he mentions Christ, Hitler has nothing but admiration:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-- of a whore and a Roman soldier.
The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him.
-Hitler

Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolsevism.
-Hitler



As tortured as Hitler's logic is, He never condemns Jesus. On the contrary, he sees Jesus as an Aryan, a liberator against Jewish oppression! If Hitler did not see himself as a Christian, then why doesn't he condemn Jesus? Why doesn't he accuse Christ as being a Jew? Why does he see Christ as a liberator?

Biographer John Toland explains Hitler's reason for exterminating the Jews:

Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, 'I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so,' he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God-- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty.

Moreover, there are no known documents, speeches, or proclamations by Hitler where he even comes close to denouncing his belief in Christianity, or Jesus.

The Protestant and Catholic Churches in Hitler's time never accused Hitler of apostasy. Hitler's Christianity in Germany was never questioned until years after WWII and then only by Western Christians who are embarrassed to have him as a member of their faith-system.

The reasoning by the apologists in regards to the Table-Talk seems to be that because Hitler spoke against organized religion, then he must therefore be anti-Christian. But even if we take this simplistic approach and assume the Table-Talk as the actual thoughts and beliefs of Hitler, it fails for the simple reason that dismissing a religion of one's own faith does not exclude or excuse one from a personal belief as a Christian. A Christian is simply a person who believes in God and Jesus in some form or manner. Christianity, the body of believing people, simply does not require organized religion at all.

There are many examples of prominent Christians who denounced religions who opposed their own personal beliefs. Indeed, the Protestant reformer, Martin Luther who was once a Catholic monk, denounced the Catholic hierarchy as the work of the anti-Christ and establised by the Devil . Yet I have yet to see a Lutheran accuse Luther as being a non-Christian. The history of Christianity is filled with examples of people of differing Christian faiths denouncing each other. I have personally conversed with many Christians who have denounced all forms of religious organizations, yet they have a strong belief in God and Jesus Christ.

Indeed, even the Table-Talk has Hitler saying:

Luther had the merit of rising against the Pope and the organisation of the Church. It was the first of the great revolutions. And thanks to his translation of the Bible, Luther replaced our dialects by the great German language! -Table-Talk

If simply speaking against a Christian religion were enough to oust one from Christianity, then some of the most influential Christians would have to reside with Hitler.

The papacy is truly the real power and tyranny of the Antichrist.... As beautiful as it was to keep a state of virginity, in the early days of Christianity, so abominable has it now become, when it is used as a means of eliciting Christ's help and grace. -Martin Luther (Luther's Confession, March 1528)

We maintain that the government of the Church was converted into a species of foul and insufferable tyranny. -John Calvin (The Necessity of Reforming the Church, 1544)



If we used the same logic of the apologists against Hitler, then we should remove Luther, Calvin, and many other prominent so-called-Christians from membership of Christianity.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Unused quotes

In an attempt to rewrite history, those who desire to eliminate Hitler from membership of Christianity, always find an excuse to dismiss Hitler's actual words. Instead they rely on indirect quotes from a questionable source such as Bormann's edited version of the table talk. But if we were to use this form of dubious scholarship, shouldn't we also quote Hitler from other indirect sources? If so, then, again, their plan fails and reveals the slanting of their bias. For if we took these apocryphal sources as evidence, then Hitler's Christianity become even more evident.

Those who knew Hitler remarked about his Christian views.

Here we have a Christian minister to his fellow Christians:

If anyone can lay claim to God's help, then it is Hitler, for without God's benevolent fatherly hand, without his blessing, the nation would not be where it stands today. It is an unbelievable miracle that God has bestowed on our people.

-Minister Rust, in a speech to a mass meeting of German Chrisitans on June 29, 1933



The established Methodist church paper, the Friedensglocke, vouched for the authenticity of a story about Hitler where he invited a group of deaconesses from the Bethel Institutions into his home at Obersalzberg:

The deaconesses entered the chamber and were astonished to see the pictures of Frederick the Great, Luther, and Bismarck on the wall. Then Hitler said:

Those are the three greatest men that God has given the German people. From Fredrick the Great I have learned bravery, and from Bismarck statecraft. The greatest of the three is Dr. Martin Luther, for he made it possible to bring unity among the German tribes by giving them a common language through his translation of the Bible into German....



One sister could not refrain from saying: Herr Reichkanzler, from where do you get the courage to undertake the great changes in the whole Reich?

Thereupon Hitler took out of his pocket the New Testament of Dr. Martin Luther, which one could see had been used very much, and said earnestly: "From God's word."

Even the Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich who visited Hitler at his mountain retreat in Obersalzburg confessed:


Without a doubt the chancellor lives in faith in God. He recognizes Christianity as the foundation of Western culture...

And this comes from reputable Christian sources of the day including a Cardinal! How odd that there are Christians today who think they can divine the mind of an anti-Christian Hitler they never met, removed by a generation, and dismiss all his direct quotes about Jesus, while denying their own brethren of the Church who actually talked with Hitler. If prominent Christians in the 1930s could be so easily deceived, could not be the same be applied to today's Christians? And if deception describes the temper of the faithful, then what does that say for Christianity as a whole and the thinking process that it entails?

And on Hitler's allegiance to his "true" Christian spirit:

I do not remember even a single occasion when Hitler gave any instructions that ran counter to the true Christian spirit and to humaness.

-Wagener, in Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confinant, p.147

To Wagener, Hitler supposedly confessed his attitude toward his view of true Christianity as a form of socialism as opposed to those he thought did not understand Christianity. Note, Hitler's view here of socialism was not like that of communism (Hitler detested communism) but rather one of a National nature (very similar to Right Wing Christians in America who want to nationalize Christianity) :

Socialism is a question of attitude toward life, of the ethical outlook on life of all who live together in a common ethnic or national space. Socialism is a Weltanschauung!

But in actual fact there is nothing new about this Weltanschauung. Whenever I read the New Testament Gospels and the revelations of various of the prophets and imagine myself back in the era of the Roman and late Hellenistic, as well as the Oriental world, I am astonished at all that has been made of the teachings of these divinely inspired men, especially Jesus Christ, which are so clear and unique, heightened to religiosity. They were the ones who created this new worldview which we now call socialism, they established it, they taught it and they lived it! But the communities that called themselves Christian churches did not understand it! Or if they did, they denied Christ and betrayed him! For they transformed the holy idea of Christian socialism into its opposite! They killed it, just as, at the time, the Jews nailed Jesus to the cross; they buried it, just as the body of Christ was buried. But they allowed Christ to be resurrected, instigating the belief that his teachings too, were reborn!

It is in this that the monstrous crime of these enemies of Christian socialism lies! What the basest hypocrisy they carry before them the cross-- the instrument of that murder which, in their thoughts, they commit over and over-- as a new divine sign of Christian awareness, and allow mankind to kneel to it. They even pretend to be preaching the teachings of Christ. But their lives and deeds are a constant blow against these teachings and their Creator and a defamation of God!

We are the first to exhume these teachings! Through us alone, and not until now, do these teachings celebrate their resurrection! Mary and Magdalene stood at the empty tomb. For they were seeking the dead man! But we intend to raise the treasures of the living Christ!

Herein lies the essential element of our mission: we must bring back to the German Volk the recognition of those teachings! For what did the falsification of the original concept of Christian love, of the community of fate before God and of socialism lead to? By their fruits ye shall know them! The suppression of freedom of opinion, the persecution of the true Christians, the vile mass murders of the Inquisition and the burning of witches, the armed campaigns against the people of free and true Christian faith, the destruction of towns and villages, the hauling away of their cattle and their goods, the destruction of their flourishing economies, and the condemnation of their leaders before tribunals, which, in their unrelenting hypocrisy, can only be described as balaphemous. That is the true face of those sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man, motivated by selfishness, personal greed for recognition and gain, and the ambition to maintain their high-handed willfulness against Christ's deep understanding of the necessity of a socialist community of men and nations. We must turn all the sentiments of the Volk, all its thinking, acting, even its beliefs, away from the anti-Christian, smug individualism of the past, from the egotism and stupid Phariseeism of personal arrogance, and we must educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each one of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers! This youth will, wit loathing and contempt, abandon those hypocrites who have Christ on their lips but the devil in their hearts, who give alms in order to remain undisturbed as they themselves throw their money around, who invoke the Fatherland as they fill their own purses by the toil of others, who preach peace and incite to war.... and on it goes.

- Hitler in Memoirs of a Confinant, p.139-140

In the second interview from Hitler's secret conversations, Hitler reveals:

We do not judge merely by artistic or military standards or even by purely scientific ones. We judge by the spiritual energy which a people is capable of putting forth, which will enable it in ten years to recapture what is has lost in a thousand years of warfare. I intend to set up a thousand-year Reich and anyone who supports me in this battle is a fellow-fighter for a unique spiritual-- I would say divine-- creation.... Rudolf Hess, my assistant of many years standing, would tell you: If we have such a leader, God is with us.

-Hitler, in Secret Conversations With Hitler, p. 68

On the Concordat between Germany and the Vatican, Hitler remarked:

We do not forget the influence of the churches. There will definitely be no Vatican crusade against us. We know Monsignor Pacelli since he was the Vatican's diplomatic representative in Germany for twelve years; as Secretary of State and adviser to Pope XI it is greatly in his interest that the German Catholics should at last have a statute .

-Hitler, in Secret Conversations With Hitler, p. 79


Rarely do you see apologists against Hitler's Christianity quoting from these memoirs and secret conversations, yet they want us to buy only out-of-context quotes from the Table-Talk. There are many more religious quotes from these other sources, too numerous to cite here. I only give these examples to show that Hitler's Christian thoughts are expressed even more vividly in these extraneous sources. If I had relied only on these sources, the clarion cry of foul would rise from the ire of Christian apologists, yet their only rebuttal comes from the even more dubious copy of the Table Talk edited by Bormann.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Myth 1: Hitler was not a Christian


The entire section on Hitler's Christianity provides ample evidence for his brand of Christianity. The evidence itself destroys any opinions or beliefs about Hitler's alleged apostasy.

The evidence shows that:

Hitler was born and baptized into Catholicism

His Jewish antisemitism came from his Christian background.

His early personal notes shows his interest in religion and Biblical views.

He believed that the Bible represented the history of mankind.

His Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution) included a section on Positive Christianity, and he never removed it.

He confessed his Christianity.

He tried to establish a united Reich German Church.

Hitler allowed the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches.

He encouraged Nazis to worship in Christian churches.

He spoke of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations.

His contemporaries, friends, Protestant ministers and Catholics priests, including the Vatican, thought of Hitler as a Christian.

The Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler. He died a Catholic.

To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts.

****************************

The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations

Compiled by Jim Walker

Originated: 27 Feb. 1997

Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today's Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. In the 1920s, Hitler's German Workers' Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a "Programme" with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a "positive" Christianity:

24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession....




Hitler's speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of faith. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveals the strength of his Christian feelings:


My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt 3: 7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3


It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity.
-Adolf Hitler, in an article headed "A New Beginning," 26 Feb. 1925


Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933





The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933




We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.'
-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933



This is for us a ground for satisfaction, since we desire that the fight in the religious camps should come to an end... all political action in the parties will be forbidden to priests for all time, happy because we know what is wanted by millions who long to see in the priest only the comforter of their souls and not the representative of their political convictions.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the men of the SA. at Dormund, 9 July 1933 on the day after the signing of the Concordat.


National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State.... The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men's spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church.... It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.
-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election

The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie.
-Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party (quoted from John Cornwell's "Hitler's Pope"


We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933




I believe that Providence would never have allowed us to see the victory of the Movement if it had the intention after all to destroy us at the end.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to old members of the Party at Munich on 8 Nov. 1933


The German Church and the People are practically the same body. Therefore there could be no issue between Church and State. The Church, as such, has nothing to do with political affairs. On the other hand, the State has nothing to do with the faith or inner organization of the Church. The election of November 12th would be an expression of church constituency, but not as a Church.
-Adolf Hitler, answering C. F. Macfarland about Church & State (in his book, The New Church and the New Germany)


While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.
-Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message on 1 Jan. 1934


Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1934


It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934


We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people.... It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the "Old Guard" of the Party at Munich on 19 March, 1934


The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren ), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of to-day.
-Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda


No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends....
National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934


So far as the Evangelical Confessions are concerned we are determined to put an end to existing divisions, which are concerned only with the forms of organization, and to create a single Evangelical Church for the whole Reich....
And we know that were the great German reformer with us to-day he would rejoice to be freed from the necessity of his own time and, like Ulrich von Hutten, his last prayer would be not for the Churches of the separate States: it would be of Germany that he would think and of the Evangelical Church of Germany.
-Adolf Hitler, in his Proclamation at the Parteitag at Nuremberg on 5 Sept. 1934



What we are we have become not against, but with, the will of Providence. And so long as we are true and honourable and of good courage in fight, so long as we believe in our great work and do not capitulate, we shall continue to enjoy in the future the blessing of Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, at Rosenheim in Bavaria, 11 Aug. 1935


Only so you can appeal to your God and pray Him to support and bless your courage, your work, your perseverance, your strength, your resolution, and with all these your claim on life.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Frankfurt on 16 March 1936


In this world him who does not abandon himself the Almighty will not desert. Him who helps himself will the Almighty always also help; He will show him the way by which he can gain his rights, his freedom, and therefore his future.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Hamburg on 20 March 1936


Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.
-Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism


I believe in Providence and I believe Providence to be just. Therefore I believe that Providence always rewards the strong, the industrious, and the upright.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to National Socialist women at the Nuremberg Parteitag of 1936 <11 Sept. 1936>


So long as they concern themselves with their religious problems the State does not concern itself with them. But so soon as they attempt by any means whatsoever-- by letters, Encyclica, or otherwise-- to arrogate to themselves rights which belong to the State alone we shall force them back into their proper spiritual, pastoral activity.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin on the May Day festival, 1937


We National Socialists, too, have deep in our hearts our own faith. We cannot do otherwise. No man can mould the history of peoples or of the world unless he has upon his will and his capacities the blessing of Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, to Nazi leaders on 2 June 1937, as reported by a correspondent of the "Daily Telegraph"


I will never allow anyone to divide this people once more into religious camps, each fighting the other....
You, my Brown Guard, will regard it as a matter of course that this German people should go only by the way which Providence ordained for it when it gave to Germans the common language. So we go forward with the profoundest faith in God into the future. Would that which we have achieved have been possible if Providence had not helped us?
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Regensburg on 6 June 1937


If we pursue this way, if we are decent, industrious, and honest, if we so loyally and truly fulfill our duty, then it is my conviction that in the future as in the past the Lord God will always help us. In the long run He never leaves decent folk in the lurch. Often He may test them, He may send trials upon them, but in the long run He always lets His sun shine upon them once more and at the end He gives them His blessing.
-Adolf Hitler, at the Harvest Thanksgiving Festival on the Buckeburg held on 3 Oct. 1937


This Winter Help Work is also in the deepest sense a Christian work. When I see, as I so often do, poorly clad girls collecting with such infinite patience in order to care for those who are suffering from the cold while they themselves are shivering with cold, then I have the feeling that they are all apostles of a Christianity-- and in truth of a Christianity which can say with greater right than any other: This is the Christianity of an honest confession, for behind it stand not words but deeds.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking of the Winter Help Campaign on 5 Oct. 1937


Remain strong in your faith, as you were in former years. In this faith, in its close-knit unity our people to-day goes straight forward on its way and no power on earth will avail to stop it.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Coburg on 15 Oct. 1937


In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger.... I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty.... If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths.... Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937


National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a 'volkic' political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship.... We will not allow mystically-minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.... Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.
-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept. 1938.




The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument.
-Adolf Hitler, in his proclamation to the German People on 1 Jan. 1939


Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.... The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State... Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.
It is therefore, to put mildly-- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich.... I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?
3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion.... There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State.... This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives.... But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy.
-Adolf Hitler, a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939


If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939


Sources:

Baynes, Norman H. Ed. "The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939," Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942

Cornwell, John, "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII," Viking, 1999

Again, as I said in post #99,

I am not claiming with absolute certainty that Hitler remained a catholic or even a christian.

I am not claiming that Hitler persecuted jews solely because of his religious beliefs.

I am not claiming that Hitler in any way represents christians or christianity.

What I am claiming is that Hitler could, and very possibly did, retain his belief in the christian god throughout his adulthood.

Since Hitler claimed to be a christian, I am not the person whose words you need refute, he is.





And there's more but I'd have to dig into some old posts since I lost my pc several months ago and all of the notes in it.



On the upside, I'm really putting this laptop through its paces tonight, I'm impressed.

[frankly_fedup2]

324. Other Christians, of course. They are the most judgemental of all

as far as who is going to Heaven or Hell and I'm sure you are going to Hell in their opinion (not mine. I'm an agnostic ...still searching).

[beam me up scottie]

325. There's still time for you, lol!

Go on without me. :D

[toddaa]

171. A Christian is someone who believes Jesus died to atone for sin

Correct?

If not, then I really did waste a shitload of Sunday mornings in those infernal Sunday School classes.

[Critters2]

212. Substitutionary atonement is one view, not one I subscribe to

I'm closer to Rene Girard's position on this. In short, no I do not believe Jesus died for my sins. Yes, I am a Christian.

[Warren DeMontague]

209. I think Torquemada was in charge of that, for a while. nt

[lvx35]

56. The gospels aren't the documents ranting about the jews, the aryan race.

For that, you need to look at German culture of the time, you need to look at Nietzsche, you need to look at how it was all thrown together in a religion worshipping a master race, a race of supermen.

[beam me up scottie]

64. You need look no further than Martin Luther, actually.

Don't tell me.

He wasn't a real christian either, eh?

[catbert836]

315. Nietzsche wasn't anti-Semetic

Although he was interested in eugenics and certainly had prejudicial tendencies against the, shall we say, non-white races, he considered the Jews a formidably strong race and hoped for a union of the Jewish and German races.

In fact, he broke off his friendship with composer Richard Wagner because of his anti-Semitism.

[Dr.Phool]

63. Thanks for reminding me to renew my sub to Freethought Today!

Been so busy with elections, I let it lapse.

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. But Jesus wasn't a Jew. He was a good Aryan.

Ever hear of Christian Identity? The precept was invented in the 1800s in Britain, and was adopted by the Nazis, as well as American cultists, as proof that Jews are sub-human, directly descended from the devil, and the the true nation of Israel was Aryan.

That way they can have their Jesus and their hatred, too.

[Critters2]

13. Christians (Protestants at least) rejected the notion that one could be

Christian and Nazi, with the Barmen Declaration, written by Karl Barth and signed at the city of Barmen in 1934. Many of its signatories were arrested or fled the Nazis.

Here's the text of the Barmen Declaration: http://www.ucc.org/faith/barmen.htm

[beam me up scottie]

20. Well isn't that cute?

They don't get to kick all of the bad guys out of their country club, sorry.

Christians are no better than anyone else.

[Critters2]

24. So you get to decide who is and who is not a Christian? Who died and made you God?

[beam me up scottie]

55. Nope, christians do. And unless you're GOD, you can't prove them wrong.

Christians are no better than non-christians, sorry. :hi:

[piedmont]

69. The point is tha NO ONE gets to decide who's a "true" Christian

As beam_me_up_scotty has brought up several times in this thread, you can't just after-the-fact declare that a monster who professd to be a Christian wasn't a "true" Christian. Besides being a logical fallacy, it also sets up a nasty superiority complex, whereby the only "true" Christians are the saints and virtuous, with all the worst sinners having been disowned. It probably also isn't WJWD (what Jesus would do).

[China_cat]

184. The only requirement for claiming christianity for your own religion

is that you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. (And even that can be fudged a whole lot) The rest is just picking and choosing what you agree with out of the bible and claiming that this is what god wants.

So the only person who gets to decide who is or isn't a christian is the person declaring themselves to be. Period.

Otherwhere you asked 'did you know there are gay christians'. Well, that depends on who you ask. Ask any fundamentalist and they will tell you no, gay people CAN'T be christian at all. Some others will say yes, they can...but only if they never act on their feelings and live a totally celibate life with no emotional partner. Still others will say yes, of course, all are children of god.

And EVERY ONE of those points can be substantiated with the bible.

[SidDithers]

192. Good post, China_cat...nt

Sid

[rebel with a cause]

90. And probably no worse.

Sorry to say, but there are bad among us all. Even I have to admit there are people out there that believe like I do that may not be the nicest of people. And I think that I am an O8)

Guys we are all human, and as my mother use to say: "All men have feet of clay." Atheist have to learn to be more tolerant of those in religion just as those in religion have to learn to be more tolerant of everyone else. Since I am neither, I guess I just should sit back and watch you all fight it out. Never mind how much sense is being made in the arguments.

[jgraz]

96. The only problem with that

is that Christians are following a doctrine that explicitely teaches intolerance and violence against non-christians. Given that reality, it's hard to argue that atheists are equally likely to be violent or intolerant.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Well, we're not the ones claiming absolute knowledge about his beliefs.

Here are the facts and the summary I use when I have time to dig it out and post it:

Facts:

1.) Hitler claimed to believe in the christian god.

2.) Hitler never denounced his christianity.

3.) Hitler was never excommunicated from the catholic church.

4.) Hitler mentioned his religious beliefs many, many times throughout his adult life, both in public and in private.

5.) Not one single christian and/or historical revisionist has been able to prove that Hitler stopped believing in the christian god.


Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to prove that Hitler lied about being a christian.

Please don't bother citing edited notes from Martin Bormann and/or other hearsay found in "Hitler's Table Talk" or opinions from christians who want to distance themselves from Hitler by narrowly redefining christianity in order to posthumously exclude him from the religion.

I understand their desire to do so, but neither christians nor Germans can change the rules to disown one of history's cruelest human beings.

I am using the term "christian" as a noun, not as an adjective, since there is no doubt whatsoever that Hitler did not follow all of the teachings of Jesus Christ, and also because you so adamantly claimed that he was NOT one.

The broad and inclusive definition of "christian" followed by a brief explanation from the wise people at ReligiousTolerance.org :

any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. Included are: the Roman Catholic church; the Eastern Orthodox churches, conservative, mainline, and liberal Christian faith groups; The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons); Jehovah's Witnesses and a thousand or so other religious organizations that identify themselves as Christian. Also included are those who consider themselves to be Christian even though they do not identify themselves with any particular religious group.

***

* To conservative Protestants, a Christian is often defined according to their salvation status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with some of their foundational beliefs: that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be "born-again" to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.

* To Roman Catholics, a Christian is often defined according to their baptism status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with their fundamental beliefs, including their understanding of the Bible, the declarations of many Church Councils, the statements of many popes, and their church's tradition.

* To many in the very early Christian movement, a Christian was defined as a person who was baptized and proclaimed "Jesus is Lord." Their definition was "true" to them because it agreed with their understanding of their religious belief at a time when the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not yet been written and assembled.

And so on, with the remaining definitions.

***
So there is not a single version of Christianity; there are literally thousands. Many of these faith groups believe that they alone are following Jesus' teachings; they are the "true" church. The Roman Catholic Church issued a formal statement to that effect in 2000-SEP. Although many ecumenical efforts are active today, the Christian religion remains split into thousands of denominations -- in essence thousands of varieties of Christians.

A quick definition of the No True Scotsman fallacy from SkepticWiki:

No True Scotsman

Definition

No True Scotsman is a type of logical fallacy in which the arguer claims that elements of class X have a property, and, when presented with a counter example Y, asserts that Y therefore does not belong to class X.

The argument is a fallacy since it redefines the class as needed to suit the argument. In doing so, it can make any claim at all vacuously true under the new definition.

Examples

Antagonist: "Because Christians fear God, they will act more ethically."
Protagonist: "But Jim Bakker wasn't acting ethically when he stole millions from his church."
Antagonist: "Yes, well, Jim Bakker seemed to be a Christian, but apparently, deep in his heart he was not."

Waivers:

I am not claiming with absolute certainty that Hitler remained a catholic or even a christian.

I am not claiming that Hitler persecuted jews solely because of his religious beliefs.

I am not claiming that Hitler in any way represents christians or christianity.

What I am claiming is that Hitler could, and very possibly did, retain his belief in the christian god throughout his adulthood.

Since Hitler claimed to be a christian, I am not the person whose words you need refute, he is.

The burden of proof is on you since you made the absolute claim that he was not a christian.

[rebel with a cause]

122. evidently you mistake me for someone who said Hitler did not claim to be a Christian.

Of who said that he was an atheist. I did neither. I am not going any further with this, since I quoted no one in my reasoning, and did not intend to, your insults are needless. I was only pointing out to you that there is another side to the argument that you are so righteously pursuing. I believe in tolerance, I believe in fairness, I saw neither in your post tonight and that is the only reason I even bothered to say anything. For health reasons alone, I leave you now. Good luck to anyone who disagrees with you in any way.

[beam me up scottie]

123. Where did I say you made that claim?

All I did was show you what I keep on hand to refute people who do.

Jeesh.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

218. I suggest we enlist Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and other famous atheist to draft a declaration

that officially establishes that you can't be an atheist and a ruthless dictator at the same time.

Would have the same value.

[beam me up scottie]

219. Ah, a pre-emptive No True Atheist declaration.

I like it. :thumbsup:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

220. I have it from good sources that Stalin put SUGAR in his porridge!

It's in recently-disclosed secret KGB documents!

[beam me up scottie]

221. Well, that settles it.

He must be a christian.

Atheists take their porridge straight or not at all.

[johnaries]

28. Apparently, that was a minority of the Protestants. Which is why

they had to flee.

Just like there are Liberal Evangelicals here in the US. Unfortunately, the RW Evangelicals shout louder.

[Critters2]

31. But at DU both progressive and conservative Christians catch crap from the

"brights". They make no distinction.

[beam me up scottie]

59. At DU, no religion is revered, sorry. If you can't reasonably discuss the issue, bow out.

Christians are not morally superior to non-christians.

Oh, how intolerant of me! :spank:

[opiate69]

66. Yeah, BMUS.. you big meanie!

:P

[beam me up scottie]

71. How have you been, you godless heathen scum?

:evilgrin:

[Critters2]

72. Did you know there are gay Christians? nt

[beam me up scottie]

77. Did you know there are christians who want to kill gays?

and adulterers

and feminists

and atheists

and (insert name of infidel sect here)

I can keep this up all night...:hi:

[SidDithers]

194. Depends on who you ask...

see the excellent point made by China_cat upthread.

Sid

[johnaries]

61. That is sometimes true, or at least often enough. And I apologize

that so many times all the different kinds of Christians get lumped together.

I have read the Bible, and I love the actual teachings of Jesus. Now, Paul, I have problems with him sometimes.

It is true that some people claiming to be Christian actually follow his teachings, while many others obviously do not. If the definition of "Christian" truly is "Christ-like", then the latter obviously are not "Christ-like".

However, as a religion, Christianity has fallen victim to the same problem that popular religions have fallen prey to throughout history. Because they are popular, people who seek power will use popular religions to gain power and control. The history of Christianity is full of many examples up to and including today.

The organization Americans United for Separation of Church and State http://www.au.org/site/PageServer which is an inter-faith group, points out that we should not attack the followers but those Leaders who are abusing religion for personal gain and glory.

Perhaps more DUer's should follow that advice. Perhaps myself included.
But my primary purpose was the same as the OP - to dispel the myth that Hitler was an occultist or atheist. Whether you consider him a "true" Christian or not, the fact is that he claimed to be a Christian.

And there are a lot of people claiming to be Christians who appear to be following in his footsteps.

[beam me up scottie]

68. THere's a difference in how that label is used, too.

If someone says they're a christian, that only tells others what god they worship.

[jgraz]

87. "No distinction" is wrong, but so is absolute, qualitative distinction

The fact is that progressive Christians and conservative Christians are both following the same religion. The progressives may emphasize different bits of the teachings, but there's nothing in Christian doctrine to suggest that their view is theologically more correct than the right-wing fundies.

Progressive Christians don't like to admit it, but they're following a religion that has been shown time and time again to be easily pressed into service as motivation for some of the worst atrocities in history. By ignoring that fact, we make it more likely that we'll see Christian-driven violence in the future.

[trekbiker]

155. "brights"???? that label will die a deserved death..

we are Atheists and Freethinkers.

[beam me up scottie]

164. That's supposed to be an insult, I think, even though none of us call ourselves that.

Although I can't say for sure, since no "real" christian would insult people.

WWJD?

Who would Jesus dis?

[trekbiker]

213. I know, and to think the "The Brights' Net" is right here in my

town. A pretty dumb idea, why create a frame that can be used to ridicule and attack Atheists and Freethinkers? I'm sure the originators of "Brights" are not arrogant or "elitists" but that is exactly how they will be portrayed by the ignorant religious hordes..

[beam me up scottie]

214. I agree.

I know they were just trying to get around the stigma but picking that particular word was a really bad idea.

[jgraz]

76. Hitlers' religion is irrelevant. The Holocaust was driven by Christian ideology.

Does anyone deny that hatred of the Jews has its roots in the Christian church? Or does someone wish to contend that anti-semitism originated in the "atheistic" Nazi movement?

In many ways, the Holocaust is just a modernized, mechanized version of the inquisition. Witch burning meets mass production.

[piedmont]

86. Yeah, even if you could convince me Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian...

what about the majority of the German population that supported his policies? What happened to all the Christians in that mostly Christian country? Were they simply not "true" Christians between 1933 and 1945?

[rebel with a cause]

97. Maybe like a lot of Americans today

They were just too afraid to say anything. I use to blame all Germans for what Hitler did, but today I have had a change of heart because I don't want the world to blame me personally for what the bush and his bushies are doing.

I see a lot of talk here and maybe people are protesting, but how many here have taken up arms to stop the torturing of people by those in our government. Not I, and I doubt that I will be doing that anytime soon. If I had been in Germany during that time, and in my present circumstances, I would have been crying over what was being done and helping anyone that I could, but I am not going to lie. I would not have done more than a lot of the Germans did.

With that said, I am going to go let my aching heart (and I mean that literally) rest. goodnigt all. go in peace.

[0rganism]

78. Why does everyone seem to be missing your primary points? Rick Warren is WRONG

and the media antics which promote his brand of WRONGNESS are part of a continued popular culture war against atheism.

The wrongness is not really about whether Hitler was "truly" Christian in some absolute sense -- I doubt even the most fervent atheists would advance the idea that Hitler embodied the "best qualities" of Christianity -- but rather, if there is positive evidence to support the frequent claim that he was actually an atheist -- i.e. one who holds a belief in the absence of divinity.

Furthermore, even if there were a valid claim of that sort to be made, it no more tarnishes the nature of atheism at large than Hitler's Christianity (for which positive evidence does exist) would tarnish Christianity, or his alleged occultism would tarnish occultism.

Hitler was a very special sort of evil, a prime example of what happens when qualities of hyper-developed hatred and demagoguery join together to seize power in the name of a single ego in a war-ravaged country desparately hungry for identity and leadership. We should not lay the blame at the feet of any faith or lack thereof, but place it on his direct enablers, and seek to ensure that it never happens again.

Rick Warren's wrongness is therefore threefold: he pushes an idea with no evidence in contradiction to that for which there is evidence because he wishes it to be so, he uses that falsehood to disparage those who do not share his faith, and in the process of furthering said agenda, he glosses over very real and faith-independent lessons which can be learned from Hitler's crimes.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Thank you.

I WAS searching for more dirt on that pos until the first NTSF post reared its ugly head.

[Quixote1818]

81. Well put! I hope you write to Media Matters with your thoughts!

What is disgusting is that millions of people watched that program and Rick Warren left many of them with the impression that an Atheist was responsible for the Holocaust. That deserves a swift and powerful response!

[beam me up scottie]

89. And thank you.

For noticing what he was doing, starting this thread and discussing the issue reasonably. :)

[Quixote1818]

104. Thanks, I just hope enough people write Media Matters

so they will call attention to Rick Warren's misinformation. I am sick of all the prejudices against non-believers in this country. I wish they would make Jefferson's letter to his Nephew Peter Carr, required reading in every public school. Perhaps that would end some of the prejudices against those who don't believe in God, and make it OK for non-believers to be who they are, without fear.

[beam me up scottie]

116. Now that's a good idea.

I think all of the founding fathers' letters should be on display in every school, courthouse and legislature.

[Quixote1818]

85. Link to Media Matters here. PLEASE CONTACT THEM!

What really matters here is that Rick Warren left millions of people who watch "Meet The Press", with the impression that an Atheist caused the Holocaust. Such a false statement deserves a swift and powerful response! PLEASE WRITE MEDIA MATTERS ABOUT THIS NOW!

http://mediamatters.org/contact_us

[beam me up scottie]

118. I'll send them what I've got on hand.

But I'm afraid we'll be drowned out by the "moral" majority who are continuing to rewrite history as we speak.

[rman]

125. Uhm, "Hitler was an atheist" = cheap shot at atheists?

How so?

[beam me up scottie]

127. Uhm, 'cuz he wasn't?

And because Rick Warren is using the MSU technique (Making Shit Up).

[jgraz]

129. It's also a cowardly evasion of responsibility by a Christian

The fact is that many of Hitler's ideas had their roots in Christian doctrine, especially his vicious anti-semitism. It's a matter of historical record that the Jewish Holocaust was carried out with the tacit approval of the Vatican (I say "jewish holocaust" because Pious XII actually DID complain about Hitler's execution of disabled people).

This new "Hitler was an atheist" meme is just the latest attempt to deny the role that Christianity played in fueling the most atrocious parts of Nazi philosophy.

[rman]

137. I agree with your analysis

At the very least Hitler did pander to his religious base, and he didn't mind receiving support from certain Christian authorities

Whether or not Hitler really was an atheist or a Christian is hardly relevant - as is the case with Bush.

[renie408]

145. It is a shot at atheists if your reasoning is that part of why Hitler

did what he did was due to being an atheist. Rick Warren's implication is that there is something inherent in a lack of belief in God which leads people to be actively evil.

Rick Warren is an imbecile.

[rman]

151. So Hitler being an atheist or not is only an issue if you believe Warren's

imbecile implication?

[renie408]

154. No, that's not what I meant.

You asked if Warren saying that Hitler was an atheist was automatically a cheap shot at atheists. If it were said in the same way you might mention what kind of car he drove or how tall he was, then no, it isn't. But when said by someone like Warren, who believes that it was a contributing factor in Hitler's behavior, then it was a cheap (and inaccurate) shot.

It seems to me that mentioning atheism with regards to Hitler's activity is stupid, anyway. It just begs for people to mention how many times devoted belief IN god has caused death and destruction.

[rman]

158. Actually i was asking if the OP meant that

saying Hitler was an atheist is a cheap shot at atheists.

Anyway, i think we agree on this issue for the most part.

[charlie]

128. Eh, Warren's a goob

He's a religious chauvinist who'll claim someone who isn't a member of one of the "main" religions is an atheist:

"Because the truth of the 20th century is more people were killed in the 20th century by atheist governments than all Christian ideas throughout history combined. When you look at the godless communism, and, and Nazism—which in itself was, was we’re the ruler—tens and tens of millions, maybe a hundred million people were killed in the 20th century by atheists, not by believers. So yes, you can go back to the Crusades, and they were wrong. They were flat out wrong. But let’s take the most recent history. Atheists were what caused the most people—Stalin was an atheist, Mao was an atheist, Hitler was an atheist. He was an occultist, actually. And, and so let’s just make sure that history is told.

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s06120132.htm

[beam me up scottie]

130. I was going to say what an idiot, but then I read a little further

and changed my mind.

"Most of the world is non-Christian, two thirds is not, but most of the world has faith of some kind. For instance, there are 600,000 Buddhists in the world, there are 800,000 Hindus, there are 1.3 billion Muslims and 2.3 billion Christians. The actual number of true secularists is actually quite small outside of Manhattan or Europe. So most people have a faith. Now, if you say you have to put your faith on the shelf to do humanitarian aid, you’ve ruled out most of the world. And, and so what I’m saying is, I honestly don’t care what your motivation is to do good, as long as you do good. You might have a political motivation. Somebody comes and says to you, "It makes good sense—it’s good foreign policy for us to help people get well, like with AIDS." I’ve noticed they tend to like your country when you help them out. It’s just flat out good foreign policy to do health care, OK? That’s not my motivation, but it’s fine. Then there might be a political—a profit motivation, make money and help people. I wish more businesses did it.

"Because the truth of the 20th century is more people were killed in the 20th century by atheist governments than all Christian ideas throughout history combined. When you look at the godless communism, and, and Nazism—which in itself was, was we’re the ruler—tens and tens of millions, maybe a hundred million people were killed in the 20th century by atheists, not by believers. So yes, you can go back to the Crusades, and they were wrong. They were flat out wrong. But let’s take the most recent history. Atheists were what caused the most people—Stalin was an atheist, Mao was an atheist, Hitler was an atheist. He was an occultist, actually. And, and so let’s just make sure that history is told.

Russert then turned the focus of the discussion back to domestic concerns, "because it is quite interesting watching you and your wife Kay involved in the AIDS movement. Strong evangelical Christians who nonetheless—this is what your wife, Kay Warren, said: "There are consequences that can happen when you’re sinful, but it’s not a sin to be sick.

Russert commented: "Embracing those with AIDS, even though she has strong feelings about homosexuality, you created quite a controversy last month when you invited not only Republican Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas to your church, but Barack Obama, the senator from Illinois who’s thinking of running for president, as a Democrat. This is the Christian News Wire, when Phyllis Schlafly and some other Christian leaders wrote to you, saying this: "We oppose Rick Warren’s decision to ignore Senator Obama’s clear, pro-death stance and invite him to Saddleback Church. If Senator Obama cannot defend the most helpless citizens in our country," speaking about abortion, "he has nothing to say to the AIDS crisis. You cannot fight one evil while justifying another. The evangelical church can provide no genuine help for those who suffer from AIDS if those involved do not first have their ethic of life firmly rooted in the Word of God."

What a greedy vapid moron.


"The actual number of true secularists is actually quite small outside of Manhattan or Europe."

So, according to this genius, because most people have religious faith they're automatically non-secular?



And his wife, "There are consequences that can happen when you’re sinful, but it’s not a sin to be sick. "

quite the humanitarian, isn't she? :mad:

And, hey, as long as they're making money, it's all good.

[charlie]

131. Yeah, he knows what he is doing

Further up the article, he gives his history of the early 20th century schism of Protestants into "liberals" and "evangelicals", a false dichotomy. Evangelicals took the soul, liberals took the body. Mind and ass, sacred and profane. Right. And liberals were practicing a form of "Marxist" Christianity. Like with that crack about secularists in Manhatten and Europe, the guy is just too happy popping out hot-button codewords.

[MichellesBFF]

317. An Idiot whose numbers are wrong

He claims there are 600,000 Buddhists in the world. More like 350,000,000.
In fact, there are probaly 1 to 3 million Buddhists in the US alone.

And how about 800,000 Hindus. That's more like 848,000,000.

I'd take anything this guy says with a giantic grain of salt.

[beam me up scottie]

320. Oh I take EVERYTHING this wretched excuse for a human says with a ton of salt.

I can't stand human predators of any kind.

He and his cold fish wife would love to convert the world and build their empire.

[Bill McBlueState]

318. he forgot a lot of secularists

The actual number of true secularists is actually quite small outside of Manhattan or Europe.

What about New England, California, or Japan?

What's cool is that if you took a map of the world and colored in "where the secularists are" and then you took another map of the world and colored in "where most of the advances in culture and technology are being made," they'd look very much alike.

[beam me up scottie]

319. I know.

Funny how that works out.

How about countries where people celebrate hangings?

[Swamp Rat]

132. Rick Warren is a BIGOT and he is, of course, wrong.

Hitler had a messianic complex and was very happy to ally himself with Christians against "non-believers."

I believe that Rick Warren, and people like him, are the type who would have aided Adolf Hitler in the extermination of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, liberals, Buddhists, atheists, intellectuals and free-thinkers.. et al.

It's people like Rick Warren we need to watch very closely in order to make sure another 'Hitler' doesn't come along to use Christianity to commit genocide... oops! too late!

[Patchuli]

181. I will respectfully disagree and suggest that it's

people like Dr. Dobson and Pat Robertson that are the dangers. That is based on having never heard Pastor Warren express hatred or intolerance toward another living soul. If there is proof that he has been hateful, I'd like to see it.

OK, fireproof jumpsuit on, check.

[LynnTheDem]

133. Nazi uniform; "Gott mit uns"

[Ian David]

139. See prior thread: Hitler Celebrated Christmas

Hitler Celebrated Christmas
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=97928&mesg_id=97928

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

140. Maybe He Was. I Say It Carries No Relevance Anyway.

Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But who cares? It means absosmurfley nothing. He had brown hair too. Should I protest that? Be ashamed of it? Care whatsoever?

He was an evil piece of shit. That's all that really matters.

[renie408]

144. I think that people like Rick Warren

are using the 'fact' that Hitler was atheist as an explanation for him being an evil piece of shit. They are also say that it is a well known 'fact' that atheists are immoral, blah blah blah.

If you were an atheist and someone who tries very hard to be moral and decent, this sort of thing would get old after awhile.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

148. Know What I Do About Worthless Premises Like That?

I ignore them; completely.

Acknowledging them gives them even the slightest bit of credibility or validity. Why do that?

If someone said "Hey, his last name is Bundy too! I bet he's a murder as well!", would you actually defend yourself against such an absurd notion, or would you laugh and ignore it altogether?

Why defend against such stupidity? Almost anybody is going to have the common sense to figure out the absurdity all by themselves, and anyone who would believe it would be too stupid to bother arguing with or defending against to begin with, no?

[renie408]

150. you are right

But it gets old after awhile. We are atheists. No god for us. We live in a semi-rural area in South Carolina. I am probably the only parent in SC homeschooling a child because we AREN'T religious. After my daughter told some class mates that we don't believe in god, they started pretty much torturing her. The teachers and the school were not very...sympathetic. My son got rebuked in class because he argued with his SS teacher when she said that having the Ten Commandments on display in the state capital was not a violation of church and state. She then read an email outloud to the class the next day which quoted some incorrect figures about how many Americans were Christians and how the minority should just 'sit down and shut up'. My kids say they are atheists and I have told them that at 11 and 15, they aren't ANYTHING yet. I have told them that until they read the Bible cover to cover, they shouldn't say they don't believe in it. I try hard to be respectful of the belief's of others. Just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean it isn't a wonderful thing in the lives of many others. Sometimes I would just like the same respect.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

156. "Sometimes I would just like the same respect."

And you deserve it. 100%

[trekbiker]

157. good for you... you should move to California.

[WinkyDink]

141. I thought the Inner Circle and AH were more Nordic-myth oriented.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

146. In Hitler's own words.

We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf,

We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk.

-Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935,

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

[Stuckinthebush]

152. Case closed in my opinion

Good finds there.

Hitler was a Christian and saw his movement as Christian.

We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. -- Adolf Hitler, 1928

[Greg Helmsley]

149. Rick Warren's Church Needs To Be Investigated.

If you caught his "special" (which was actually a church service) on Fox News, I noticed there were breaks for comercials, real comercials. That is in VIOLATION of its tax exempt status. Someone is making a profit.

[beam me up scottie]

162. Yes, I agree.

Imagine the revenue that would generate.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Greg Helmsley]

169. Thanks

You noticed it too? Why would there be comercials for a church service anyways?

[beam me up scottie]

172. Have you ever heard of Creflo Dollar?

The first time I saw his infomercial, I thought it was a spoof.

These guys might seem harmless, but because of their wealth, they are able to reach and brainwash large numbers of sheep, I mean people.

It's like they're conditioning them for something.

Something like hijacking this country and turning it into a theocracy, for instance.

[Greg Helmsley]

174. Yes :), I've heard of him.

Yet he paid for the time, which is legal. Rick Warren on the other hand was advertised on Fox News, during the christmas "special's" breaks, they showed a car commercial, Aflac, Sprint, American Idol plug, stuff you see on regular television. Not even NBC showed comercials during its annual Papal Christmas Midnight Mass. I am outraged, what about the rest? His church MUST be stripped of his Tax-Exempt status.

[beam me up scottie]

176. You know, you should start a separate thread about that issue.

I'm not sure if he can lose his tax-exempt status but I wonder if that is enough to start an investigation.

[Danger Mouse]

161. Hitler was a Christian.

Bush is a Christian.
FUCKING DEAL WITH IT.
Were/are they GOOD Christians? Hell no! Do they represent all Christians? Hell no!
They are just evil, vile, loathsome people who happen to be Christian. THEY EXIST. DEAL WITH IT.
I've never heard an atheist whine that Stalin or Mao weren't 'true' atheists just because they were evil and killed people. Just because you're a Christian, doesn't autmoatically make you exempt from being a vile boil on the ass of humanity.

[beam me up scottie]

166. "a vile boil on the ass of humanity"

You have a way with words, Elrond.

*BMUS swoons*

[Danger Mouse]

195. What can I say, BMUS?

I'm a cunning linguist, after all :)

[beam me up scottie]

203. You are truly evil.

:rofl:

[Danger Mouse]

204. Am not! I'm a Christian! The Bible tells me I'm good and holy!

There's no WAY I could possibly be evil. :evilgrin:
But I think at this point, I'm probably destined for hellfire anyway. At least I'll have most of my favorite people to keep me company O8)

[beam me up scottie]

205. My standard response to people who ask me "Don't you want to go to heaven?" :

Nah, I wouldn't know anyone.

[Danger Mouse]

206. People have actually used that line??

Honestly, if heaven is anything like what most of these fundies envision, it'd be full of arrogant, hypocritical, insufferable pricks, anyway. But they don't REALLY care about heaven. They care about HELL, HELL, HELL.
Ever read 'A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.' It gets it dead on. A character goes on for page after page after page describing hell down to every last excrutiating detail, yet only devotes a couple of pages to heaven as almost an afterthought.
They loves them some fearmongerin', yes they do!

[beam me up scottie]

210. Oh, you'd be surprised what they tell you when they find out you're a non-believer.

That one was a favorite of my ex-mother-in-law.

She also used to tell my husband and myself that we would go to hell if we didn't accept Jesus and blah blah blah...

I used to tell her to save us some seats near the air-conditioner. :evilgrin:

[trekbiker]

215. "used to tell my husband" aaahahaha.....

scottie... all thru this thread I thought you were a guy.. thats funny. one of the things I like about the net

you know, Kirk never actually said the line "Beam me up Scottie" in TOS. Another Trek myth.. Hey, maybe it will be perpetuated and distorted by future generations of Trekkies and eventually become a... RELIGION

[beam me up scottie]

216. I know, I saw it on a bumper sticker in Vermont and it stayed with me.

When I was in the Marine Corps, most men dismissed my opinions, if not my service, because of my sex.

The internet levels the playing field.

[Danger Mouse]

222. You were in the Marine Corps as well?

Wow...the things we learn about each other :)

[beam me up scottie]

224. Weird, eh?

BMUS the raving uppity atheist/feminist/liberal/vegetarian used to play for GOD COUNTRY and CORPS.

I'll bet you have a background that's at least as interesting, most DUers do.

[Danger Mouse]

227. Hmm...perhaps...

There are interesting events in my family's recent history...namely an unsolved murder/suicide, drugs, whores, all kinds of debauchery :P
but (most) of it doesn't really involve me...aside from spending a few weeks in china while i was in high school, i've had a relatively uneventful life...

[beam me up scottie]

228. " unsolved murder/suicide, drugs, whores, all kinds of debauchery"

My kind of family. :D

[Danger Mouse]

234. My daddy brought me to a whorehouse when I was a toddler...

ah, the repressed memories :D
so, BMUS, how on earth did I ever get on your good side? seems like a lot of the christians on DU seem to hate you with a flaming passion...

[beam me up scottie]

235. Ah, but lots of christians love me too.

I even have http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x79553">proof!

And I love you guys right back.

Some people are just more used to their sacred cows being shot than others.

And I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before:

"It is one of the Christian delusions that Christianity brought charity into the world. It did no such thing."

~ H.L.Mencken

[Danger Mouse]

237. Mmm...I just enjoy the rise you get out of some...

It's so entertaining...

[Danger Mouse]

223. I bet she loved that one =)

I certainly do.

[beam me up scottie]

225. Oh yeah, I was her FAVOURITE, right from the start.

:rofl:

I mean, come on, here we are, trying to leave to go to a DIO concert and she keeps calling - the woman was hysterical - begging us to stay home or something BAD would happen...

It was surreal.

[Danger Mouse]

226. And then...

you would go to HELL and BURN in pits of FLAME for all ETERNITY...
wretched sinner :P

[beam me up scottie]

230. It was one of the most peaceful concerts I've ever been to.

I even went to the bathroom without hubby as an escort, every one of the evil devil worshipers let me through without so much as a grope.

[opiate69]

231. OF course it was..

A good portion of Dio's lyrics are actually very positive (in a weird sort of "you're a social outcast, but you're still special" kind of way)

It's the same old song
You've gotta be somewhere at sometime
They never let you fly

It's like broken glass
You get cut before you see it
So open up your eyes

You've got desire
So let it out
You've got the fire
Stand up and shout-shout

You've got wings of steel
But they never really move you
You only seem to crawl

You've been nailed to the wheel
But never really turning
You know you've got to want it all

You've got desire
So let it out
You've got the fire
Stand up and shout

You are the strongest chain
And not just some reflection
So never hide again

You are the driver
You own the road
You are the fire go on explode

You've got desire
So let it out
You've got the power
Stand up and shout

/I loves me some Dio... (runs off to the bit torrent page)

[beam me up scottie]

232. sigh...

if my ex had a voice like Ronnie, I'd have followed him to the ends of the earth...

*BMUS swoons again*

[Danger Mouse]

233. Well of course...

...you weren't (presumably) a virgin, therefore inelligible for sacrifice to their dark gods!
Silly woman!

[varkam]

167. What the hell does it matter?

Just curious.

[beam me up scottie]

168. Hi varkam!

The op is right to be angry about how the "moral" majority is rewriting history.

And I'm thrilled to see a non-atheist sticking up for us.

[varkam]

170. I enjoy revisionism about as much as the next fellow...

which isn't very much. I suppose I just get wary whenever Hitler is brought into the fray. Oh Godwin's law, how I adore thee.

[beam me up scottie]

173. That's why I said I was so sick of this issue in my first post.

You just know what's coming next...:banghead:

[Patchuli]

185. You certainly expended a lot of energy

on a issue you claim to be "sick of." :P

I think tolerance would be well-used by all, regardless of where you are spiritually.

Happy 2007.

[beam me up scottie]

187. Christian supremacy makes me sick.

Claiming that people who act immorally aren't christian is the same thing as claiming that people who act immorally are automatically atheists, muslims, jews and/or other non-christians.


"Tolerance" is admitting that nobody is morally superior or inferior because of their religious beliefs or lack of them.


Which is what I've been saying all along.

[Patchuli]

239. I've never said anyone is either

"superior" or "inferior" in light of their faith or lack of. Get yourself some glasses and perhaps a reading comprehension class, while you're at it.

I will say that Hitler and * are/hypocrites and there was nothing 'Christian' about either of them. Now spin there anywhere you want, but this argument is just dumb. Like I said, you talk a lot about intolerance but show little to anyone else.

Good luck with that.

[opiate69]

244. Since you seem to be blind.. here are your own words again

Well "accepted definition" or not,

a follower of Christ is not a bigot, a racist, a hater or a liar.

[beam me up scottie]

248. Nice.

It's like arguing with Betty Bowers.

[Patchuli]

257. And you point being...? nt

[opiate69]

261. You can't seriously be this dense, can you?

Well "accepted definition" or not,

a follower of Christ is not a bigot, a racist, a hater or a liar.

I would think it pretty elementary that a person who was neither a bigot, racist, "hater" (what-the-hell-ever that means) or a liar would be morally superior to one who was.. your premise further implies that anyone who is guilty of these offenses is in no way a "True Christian™".. ergo, non-Christians are morally inferior to Christians.

[beam me up scottie]

270. She can't be reading our posts.

It's the only explanation.

[WhollyHeretic]

274. That or maybe it's performance art...

Really bad performance art :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

296. It could be a fellow EAConspirator goofing on us.

Or a test!

[beam me up scottie]

246. Reading comprehension? Glasses?

Let's have a look at my post again:

Christian supremacy makes me sick.

Claiming that people who act immorally aren't christian is the same thing as claiming that people who act immorally are automatically atheists, muslims, jews and/or other non-christians.


"Tolerance" is admitting that nobody is morally superior or inferior because of their religious beliefs or lack of them.


Which is what I've been saying all along.

Kindly use your ever-so-acute 20/20 vision to point out where I accused you of anything.

[Danger Mouse]

201. But...but...

...all atheists are immoral little heathens! Right? Aren't they? Oh, my fragile little Christian world! That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more.
When Christians start whining about being oppressed in this country, then the terrorists have won.

[opiate69]

302. Over 300 posts.. this thread needs more cats, I think

[beam me up scottie]

304. ROFLMAO!!!

[trotsky]

305. Holy f'ing crap

That is the funniest thing I've seen in ages. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[charlie]

306. My new favorite

[beam me up scottie]

307. !

:rofl:

You guys are killing me!

[Rabrrrrrr]

308. Stop lying, Rick Warren, you miserable piece of hatebased shit and admit the truth.

Fucking Christian Triumphalist douchebag.

Show some honesty, you stupid lying fuck, and admit the truth - that's what Jesus would have us do: admit to the truth, no matter how bad it stinks. Especially when it stinks.

Sadly, Rick ol' boy (btw, did you ever pay Haggard back for those times you found yourself cashless at your evangelical meetings?), we Christians have to pony up and admit that Hitler was one of our own. An evil, psychopathic, shitty excuse for one of our own, but one all the same.

But then, Rick, you don't want to admit that truth because a) you're a lying scumfucker, and b) your hate-based racist triumphalist heretical version of Christianity is the exact same as Hitler's, except replace "German" with "American".

[charlie]

312. Gadzooks

That is some righteous thunder. I'll give you a tip o' my hat... and wide berth.

It's even more awesome when I imagine it in "authentic frontier gibberish."

(...I remember that long-ago "explain your handle" thread :D)