I have a question... Why to people pray to Jesus and worship Jesus

[xultar]

Why not pray and worship God only.

Jesus was a man. He is however the sun of God. Isn't worshiping and praying in Jesus's name worshiping a man.

Shouldn't we Pray in Gods name only?

I've been thinking about this for a lonnnnnng time.

[rkc3]

1. I've been thinking the same thing - when did Jesus kill God?

I spent 11 years in Catholic school and can't remember spending too much time worshiping Jesus - although we were supposed to live our lives like Jesus -- not for Jesus.

[havocmom]

2. I wanna know why they don't do it privately, in a closet, like they were

instructed by the Master to do.

[rkc3]

8. Wasn't there a story in the New Testament about the rich man at the

front of the Temple who proudly told the world how he loved God and a poor man in the back who rested/beat his head against the pew because he was not worthy of God's love?

I believe Jesus used this story to illustrate the differences between the Pharisees/Sadducees(sp?) and the more common people.

[teenagebambam]

3. Simplistic answer, but...

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me,
the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than
these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever
ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:12-15

[xultar]

20. Seems as though Jesus has become bigger in this whole thing.

I was wondering that in church a while back. I've been thinking about it off and on for about 6 months.

[iamjoy]

4. Because...

Jesus supposedly said, "I am the truth, I am the way, I am the light, none get to the Father but through me."

And, I think, because of the Trinity.

I suppose, at least, I'm a Jew so I was raised to take all that business about no other gods and about graven images literally, so maybe a better authority could chime in on this.

[chicagojoe]

5. Jesus=God. That's what I've been told.

The old time concept of "I am my father's son, therefore I am my father" applies here, I guess.

[Danocrat]

6. Jews have been asking the same question for centuries

"Oy, vhy go through the middleman?"

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. LOL!

[Drifter]

7. You hear the argument about evolution ...

God created the dinasaur bones to test christians. Bullshit.

I think God created Jesus to see which believers would worship him over God. This would be a blatent violation of the 1st commandment. Looks like a clean sweep to me. That should make the traffic at the pearly gates a bit light when I get there.

Jesus is as much God sons, as God exists, in the mind of man.

Cheers
Drifter

[lagged_variable]

9. Trinity

I think iamjoy got it right. It's the trinity. This was an issue that was made catholic (definitionally, "standard") in all of those councils the christians has 1600 years ago. The Nicean creed? I'm hardly a biblical scholar.

But anyways, the trinity says that Jesus and God are the same, and anyone who believes otherwise is a heretic. And since it's easier to model yourself after Jesus instead of God, there you go.

[forgethell]

10. According to

the doctrine of the Trinity, there are 3 persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 3 persons, 1 God. The New Math is very old.

However, each is God, and Jesus is the Son, also know as the Word. Jesus and the Father, God, are both prayed to. I suppose the Holy Spirit can be, and has been, prayed to, also. I don't know anybody who has ever done it, though.

[davekriss]

42. "I suppose the Holy Spirit can be ... prayed to ..."

"I suppose the Holy Spirit can be, and has been, prayed to, also. I don't know anybody who has ever done it, though."

There's that old incantation from my early childhood Catholic years that goes...

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...".

Wouldn't all of us in my catechism class have been, then, praying to the Holy Spirit?

Admittedly, that was several decades ago and my memory has dimmed...

[thereismore]

11. Jesus is God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, ...

John 1:1, 14

In other words, Jesus is the incarnation of God, in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth. There are many other quotes, these are just the basic ones. Jesus is not a middle man, because He is both man and God at the same time.

[xultar]

19. But doesn't Jesus talk to his Father when he's on the cross? n/t

[thereismore]

26. Yes, Jesus and Father are different persons, yet part of the same

God. The third person is the Holy Spirit. That's the principle of Trinity. They are distinct persons, yet part of one God. In theological literature it is described as a mystery - something you can't wrap your human mind around, yet it's true. An article of faith, essentially.

[thinkingwoman]

38. so...God has

multiple personality disorder?

[El Supremo]

13. My question is why do Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics pray...

through saints? Saints were great people, but they can't intervene on our behalf. Only Jesus can.

[thereismore]

14. That's why Protestants could not take it anymore,

among other things. Praying to Saints is idolatery, according to Protestants, and their interpretation of the 2nd commandment.

Jesus Himself said that we can pray directly to the Father because He made it possible through His sacrifice. Before Jesus, people needed the priests and sacrifices to approach God. Not anymore. Catholics are really in violation of Scripture on this.

[adwon]

15. Depends on how you look at it

Consider the Hail Mary

Hail Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with thee,
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus,
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our deaths. Amen.

It's an intercessory request, not a direct prayer. The various 'prayers' to the saints all follow a similar model. The general idea is that extra assistance is a good thing. Plus, in my opinion, it humanizes God a great deal. As a Catholic, it's hard to identify with the person of Jesus. Fully man and fully divine, neither nature confounding the other? I didn't believe that one for years. I'm not still not too sure about it, but I decided to accept that one as a mystery to be taken on faith. It's much easier to identify with Mary or the saints because they weren't God. Hell, consider St. Augustine: Lord make a better man, just not today.

[El Supremo]

16. Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church allows other cultures to...

pray to many so-called saints who were reincarnated from pagan gods. Just go to New Mexico and see how important to them their Santos are.

And I have a big problem with St. Augustine of Hippo. He may have been the greatest theologian since the beginning of the Church, but he is the one who rationalized war. I don't think the pre-Constantinian Christians would agree that war could ever be just.

[adwon]

17. Hmm

Yeah, the Church has incorporated individuals of dubious theological standing (that makes me chuckle), but so what? Catholicism is both strict and easygoing at the same time. The only thing that really binds the church is the belief that grace is the beginning of salvation, not the end. Catholicism had to adapt in order to spread. The fact that it picked up elements of various other religions is not bad in itself. It added quite a bit to the mix and is a source of divergence between the laity and the clergy. This divergence is probably good because of the hierarchical nature of the church. It provides the laity with the opportunity to have some independence from the clergy, which is nice because it becomes harder to return to the Dark Ages.

Aquinas formulated the just war doctrine. I believe it grew out of both his infatuation with Aristotle and reaction to the idiocy of the Crusades. I might be projecting my own wishes when it comes to his opinion on the Crusades, though.

Augustine, who was superceded by Aquinas, is the real father of the original sin doctrine. This is another doctrine that I've never considered valid because it implies that God rules on humans as a bloc, rather than on an individual basis. It always struck me as quite incongruous that the Church could teach that God loved us all individually, yet had allowed us all to be condemned by virtue of some mythical lineage.

[El Supremo]

18. Oops, gettin' my saints mixed up.

But when I compare animals with humans, I can understand that humans are burdened with original sin.

[thereismore]

27. Yes, brother, the Catholic Church is well aware of the idolatry issue

which is why these prayers to saints and Mary are constructed as intercessary, not as worship of the saint or of Mary. That's probably OK, yet too close for comfort in Reformed circles. There is a part of my family who are Catholic, and I consider them my brothers in Christ, however, they do some things that that are right on the edge or past it. Like take for instance the bowing to altars. They tell me they are bowing to the Body of Christ that's in it. I see pictures painted on the altar and on the walls and I see the violation of the 2nd commandment (images and bowing to them, etc.).
I think it would take an extraordinary person, one that possibly does not exist, to look at a picture of a Saint and pray to him for help and not cross the line into worshipping him (the Saint). I won't risk it.

[Stunster]

21. It's stems from the Apostles' Creed

"the communion of saints".

It's a harmony of wills, rooted in and centering on God.

If I ask you to pray for me, am I violating God's will?

[El Supremo]

22. That is the Protestant's Creed Too

Don't know what it has to do with having saints as intercessors.

As you might guess, I'm a member of the Reformed Church (you know followers of the theology of the non-saints Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, etc.). We have been trying to simplify matters for several hundred years. We don't believe that you need anyone to help you "talk" to God who is in three parts.

[Stunster]

24. So, if I ask you to pray for me,

am I violating God's will?

Yes?

So much for the Church as Body of Christ!

[El Supremo]

25. You ain't dead yet!

To quote Monty Python.

We usually don't pray for dead people (or their souls or sprits). And that includes saints.

[Stunster]

31. I know I'm not dead yet

So what?

I ask people who are alive in Christ to pray for me. Those who are alive in Christ includes people on earth and the saints in heaven, since we are all members of the same Body of Christ.

So asking St Francis of Assisi, or you, or St Therese of Lisieux, or someone else, to pray for me seems perfectly ok to me.

[thereismore]

29. We pray for other people, of course, and I

ask for your prayers too for myself, but don't pray exclusively through some Saints (declared to be special kind of saints by the Church machinery). After all, some of the so-called Saints may be in hell today. Only God knows a man's heart, the Church does not. So, ask your Father directly, in the name of His Son.

[Stunster]

32. Does not saint Paul indicate in some of his letters

the saints in certain earthly places are praying for certain people? Why should we not ask saints in the heavenly places to pray for us also?

We believe in the communion of saints. Why should that exclude anyone from communicating with saints?

[thereismore]

34. I am of the reformed persuasion, so I don't think Augustine

(for example) is a special saint because he was canonized by the Pope. I think Augustine and my grandma are saints who are having a blast with Jesus right now. I don't think you are prohibited to talk to Augustine in prayer, but I disagree with you if you think that Augustine can do more for you in terms of intercession than my grandma. I do think that when you pray, you have God's undivided attention. If you think that another saint can do something for you, alive on this Earth or in heaven, it's OK to ask. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't think that canonization makes someone a more powerful saint in the eyes of God. In the eyes of the Catholic Chrurch, yes, but does that matter to God?

[Stunster]

33. Communion in the Body of Christ

Saints are members of the Body of Christ.

Asking Christ to intercede is ok, but asking members of Christ's Body is not ok???

Christ tells his disciples to ask the Father for the good things the Father already knows we need.

When his disciples enter heaven, are they supposed to stop asking the Father for the good things the Father knows we need?

Did Christ revoke the instruction to ask, to make petition, and to be persistent in doing so?

Is there a Scripture text that says disciples should petition the Father only for their own needs, but not for the needs of others?

So, given that a disciple of Christ may be living on earth, and given the communion of saints, and given Christ's instruction to pray unceasingly and to ask the Father to supply our needs, why should not some disciples of Christ petition other members of Christ's Body to pray and make petitions on their behalf, and why should requesting intercession from other members of Christ's Body be confined only to disciples who are not yet in heaven?

[El Supremo]

35. OK, you made me look this up:

From The Heidelberg Catechism of 1563, part of Reformed Churchs' Book of Order.

Question 55. What do you understand by "the communion of saints"?

Answer. First, that all and every one, who believes, being members of Christ, are in common, partakers of him, and of all his riches and gifts; secondly, that every one must know it to be his duty, readily and cheerfully to employ his gifts, for the advantage and salvation of other members.

And From Our Book of Confessions

1. All saints being united to Jesus Christ their head, by his Spirit and by faith, have fellowship with him in his graces, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory and, being united to one another in love, they have communion in each other's gifts and graces, and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, as to conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.

2. Saints by their profession are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services as tend to their mutual edification;4 as also in relieving each other in outward things, according to their several abilities and necessities. Which communion, as God offereth opportunity, is to be extended unto all those who, in every place, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.

3. This communion which the saints have with Christ, doth not make them in any wise partakers of the substance of his Godhead, or to be equal with Christ in any respect: either of which to affirm, is impious and blasphemous. Nor doth their communion one with another as saints, take away or infringe the title or property which each man hath in his goods and possessions.



So the way I understand it is not that we shouldn't pray to saints or ask saints to pray for us, it is that saints are not more special than any other believer.

[Stunster]

36. This may be of interest

St John Ogilvie SJ was canonized as a saint of the Catholic Church in
1976. What propelled him to sainthood was the astounding cure of a
Scottish dock worker in Glasgow in 1967....

http://www.scalan.co.uk/fagan.htm

http://www.secretsyoushouldknow.com/miracle.htm

[thereismore]

28. No, but Jesus said that

we can pray to the Father directly. It is the privilage of Christians. I don't think there is something necessarily wrong with asking someone to pray for you, be it me or Augustine, just make sure you ask the Father directly, in Jesus' name.

If you were a father who loves his son, and he would never ask anything of you, instead he would go to his sisters or brothers to ask for him, what would you think? Just don't get hung up in praying through the saints exclusively.

[Mich Otter]

23. It is Christ-ianity, not God-ianity

Somebody made their priorities known when the name was decided upon.

[thereismore]

30. That name just signifies that we think that Jesus of Nazareth

is the Christ. Orthodox Jews obviously do not think so.

[merh]

37. To some, Jesus, the son of God is God in human form,

With the power of the holy spirit, God sacrified his son to us to prove his love for us, so that we would know what love is and so that, if we follow the examples of Jesus and heed his words, we can know eternal rest and can know God. The triology, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one in the same.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only child so that we could know eternal life.

God is love, Jesus taugh love, unconditional, non-judgmental, always forgiving love. When asked what is the greatest commandment Jesus responded by saying "Love thy God with they whole heart and they whole soul and second unto to that is to love thy brother/neighbor as thyself." For me it is simple, God is love, the truest, purest example of love imaginable, so true and pure that we cannot comprehend it, so messengers or prophets that understood it tried to put it in terms we could understand, thus religious books were written (the bible and the koran). Jesus, God as man, tried to simply the messages and he told us that we should love God (love Love) with all we are, with are whole heart and soul (love unconditionally, love for the sake of love). Second to that we are to love our brothers/neighbors as ourselves. That means we have to love ourselves, accept ourselves, recognize our faults but not condemn ourselves for our faults, if we love the act of loving and being loved, if we love God, and if we love ourselves, we cannot help but to love our neighbors/brothers as ourselves. Thus, the true triology, love love, love self, love others, a continuous circle of love that makes it impossible to break the ten commandments and makes it impossible to judge and/or condemn others.

[Stevepol]

39. When you pray to God, you are praying to God as if He/She/It

is a person, in other words, Christ. Jesus through his life and works became the very embodiment of God as a person in the world. If you pray to God, you still have an image in your mind of a "person," somebody who has the capability of "hearing" and "answering," i.e., a person. Ergo, God in human form, or Christ. I always heard "in Jesus name we pray, Amen" tagged onto all prayers and I still do it, not because I'm praying to Jesus, but because I'm praying in Jesus "name," that is, in his way or manner.

However, whoever a person wants to pray to I don't think it makes any difference except that it's better to go to the top when you can. Why pray to the next door neighbor who died two years ago and ask him to help you understand the Theory of Relativity when he didn't even pass high school math? Just because he's dead or has a halo around his name doesn't necessarily give him the power to be of much help. If you go to the top, to El Supremo, then God, through Christ, will send whatever person or spirit you need through your life and activities to answer that prayer. Nothing wrong with it but it seems to me you might be limiting yourself.

As for worshipping Jesus, I don't think Jesus wanted that. He told a young rich man not even to call him "good." "No man is good but God," Christ said. And Jesus washed his own disciple's feet to show them the attitude they should take toward other humans. Later, the apostles would tell those who tried to worship them not to do so because "I myself also am a man." In other words, when we're in human form, we shouldn't worship a human form since by its very nature it's unable to be God, who/which is a spirit, an Ideal. Jesus is a pattern for all men, an elder brother. Why would somebody worship his older brother? Love and intimacy yes, the deepest of trust, but worship? I agree, God is to be worshiped, not Jesus.

[patrice]

40. Many people have fixated on the person instead of the message.

They are also more obssessed with others and ignoring their own behavior. When they do think of their own behavior, it all translates to actively enforcing the "good news" on others.

There is no way anyone can know whether sodomy is a worse sin than say, e.g., not giving a can of beans to the hungry. They all just assume that they are required to go after others, because their own faults are so "small" that they don't matter. WRONG!

[Stuckinthebush]

41. The early church had major issues with this very problem

If God is god, and Jesus is God, how can we have two gods?

So, they invented a thing called the Trinity. God is three in one - God the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

So, easy as pie they fixed the problem of polytheism by creating the trinity which places god into three.

You can do many things in the beginning of a religion, its the later years when its tough to redefine.

[thinkingwoman]

43. because they can't read

and understand commandment #1.

Ok, now that I've been flippant, I'll try to respond reasonably.

Umm.

Hmmm.

I refer to my initial response. sigh.

[universalcitizen]

44. Because they can't follow their instructions which were:

"When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven..."

He also said "if you ask anything in my name..." Ask Father as if you were Me, and I will do it.

[Me.]

45. I Always Wondered About that Too

Given the 1st commandment. Then I heard a sermon given at St. Peter Avincular, in London, which discussed this very thing. And the reason given, was that the God of the old testament was a vengeful God, one to be feared, and Jesus as his son was much more approachable. Hence he became, just as was stated upthread, the middleman between the Hebrews and God.