AFA's next show is "Silencing Christians"

[CatholicEdHead]

This series on some obscure cable networks, but also in DVDs for Sunday school use :puke: , is nothing but whining about being percutued because they are unable to percute others. Ann Coutler among others is a focus of this claptrap.

http://silencingchristians.com/action_alert_landing.aspx

I have never head of the three cable networks it is running on, but expect some noise when this hits the Sunday School rounds at fundie churches this spring.

[JerseygirlCT]

1. They have this absolutely pathological need to feel persecuted

don't they? I guess all the fantasies make them feel better for all the real-world harm they cause others.

[Mythsaje]

2. I wish we were BETTER at silencing some of them...

Yet, somehow, they keep nattering on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

And if Ann Coulter's a Christian, I'm a Hindu deity.

Meh.

She should be fined for intentional abuse of the English language just for speaking and/or writing the word "The," if only because everything that's likely to come after it would give raw sewage a bad name.

[tularetom]

3. Are they gonna give us some how to hints?

I know a few I'd like to silence.

:evilgrin:

[struggle4progress]

4. INSP = new name of Jim Bakker's PTL network

[billiefan2000]

28. struggle, that is the one

http://insp.com/ministries.asp

mentions what they air

they also air Rod Parsley and Jack Van Impe and John Hagee and Benny Hinn and Mac Hammond


and the creepy grifter Mike Murdock (see) http://youtube.com/watch?v=205dNLquKnE


and also David Jeremiah and Charles Stanley (at least you can learn some spirtual lessons from their shows)



http://www.ilifetv.com/programs.asp


http://www.ini.tv/programs.asp

mention what the other 2 air

[ET Awful]

5. Hosted by Janet Parshall .. . . isn't she the one Randi Rhodes made a complete ass of on National TV

You know the one with the fingers in her ears?

[billiefan2000]

29. she is a joke on Christian talk radio

BTW:

Janet Parshall is NOT a christian talk host.

she is a politcal talk host


if she was she would speaking out on the false teachings that Rick Warren and Joel Osteen and the TBN morons

and the Emergent Church are pumping down christians throats




LaLa song by Outkast (done to Randi Rhodes VS. Janet Parshall on C-Span (10-08-05)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q058WEMnlWI

[knitter4democracy]

6. Oh, for crying out loud.

Those Christians need to read some of their own history. As long as my faith isn't illegal and I'm not in danger of beheading or getting thrown to the lions, I'm good. Christians aren't persecuted here very much, and when they are (I was in high school by a teacher, so I know what it's like), there are ways to deal with it. They need to get over themselves.

[cmlove]

7. Perhaps they Protesteth Too Much

What is interesting about the left is that they never seem to
remember the intolerance of their own movement. Remember the
Nationalist Socialist Party of Germany? America is about free
speech, not one side silencing the other. Why is it that these
pundits must go back 500 years to find something despicable
from organized Christianity. Please don't quote me about the
nuts out there that claim to be Christians. All sides have
their nuts. I am concerned whenever free speech is attempted
to be silenced, no matter what side it comes from! 

[cosmik debris]

8. That's a stretch

comparing "the left" to the Nazi Party. Do you really believe that Christianity is in danger of being silenced in the USA?

[cmlove]

13. Tolerance

Can you provide a quote of a major lefty stating their unqualified support for the right of the extreme conservative to practice free speech? Fascism was the backbone of the Nazi Party, I hope tolerance is practiced on all sides.

[cosmik debris]

15. You dodged the question.

Do you really believe that Christianity is in danger of being silenced in the USA? Why can't you answer that question? What forces do you see suppressing the majority of Americans? Are you living in some sort of paranoid fantasy?

And comparing the left to Nazis is not exactly tolerant on your part.

Remember that bastion of the left, the ACLU, defended the extreme right wing Klan's right to free speech and the right to march. So your comparison is obviously false.

If you want tolerance, perhaps you should start at home. Learn your history and stop bashing liberals.

[cmlove]

17. Dodging the question...

Do you really thing the average German citizen would have supported Hitler if they really knew what was happening to the gypsies, the Jews, and some of the Christians? My concern is that extreme Socialism (NAZI Party) did their dirty work mostly in secret until they obtained absolute power. So too did Saddam Husein before he executed most of his opposition in 1963. I am concerned about any group, left or right, that seeks to limit another's Constitutional right to express free speech. Speaking of intolerance, have you ever heard about a Christian high school student who was not allowed to refer her faith in a speech as the motivating factor for becoming the school Valedictorian? I believe this was the topic of the TV show in question on this thread? Sadly, the Supreme Court decided a case against free speech that limited student expression due to a student advocating drug use. As for bashing liberals, have you ever seen a pro-choice/pro-life demonstration? The liberals are very vocal and have no shortage of words for bashing conservatives.

As for tolerance, I like the words of Voltaire: I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june07/scotus_speech_3-19.html
http://www.lsc.state.oh.us/membersonly/freedomspeech.pdf
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/studentspeech.htm

[cosmik debris]

20. That's more senseless blather

Do you really believe that Christianity is in danger of being silenced in the USA? Why can't you answer that question? What forces do you see suppressing the majority of Americans? Are you living in some sort of paranoid fantasy?

I answered your question, but you will not respond to mine. You keep changing the subject. Remember the subject of the OP was silencing Christians in the USA today, but all you want to talk about Nazis 75 years ago. If that's all you've got, you are a waste of time.

[cosmik debris]

21. My response to your Voltaire quote

I don't want your life, I want your life savings.

If you are sincere about giving your life for the rights of others, let's compromise.

You keep you life, but donate your life savings to the legal defense of the Smallkowski family's right to be atheists.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/smallkowski_family_victim_of_atheist_hate_crime_rrs_newsletter

Put your money where your mouth is.

Of course I know you won't, but you really should consider that before you post your high minded sounding Voltaire crap. It makes you sound like an empty windbag. Your promise to "defend to the death" rings hollow when you won't even bother to empty your bank account for the cause you purport to feel so passionately about.

You're just blowing smoke.

[cmlove]

22. Stereotypes

I tried to go to the link about the Smallkowski family but the link to the main story did not work. If true, and I have no reason to believe it not to be true, I think the school (private?) overreacted just as the school did in the Valedictorian case which is the subject of this thread. This discourse between us is great. It is what I am arguing for to remain to be allowed in the schools. It is sad that a majority of university faculty in America have created an environment where true discourse and the freedom of conservatives to debate their opinions (without being ridiculed) has been lost. I would like to see the left and the right champion the rights of all to speak freely with more vigor. As to Voltaire, I doubt that you also would give your life for another. As for my life savings, you seem to be stereotyping me as a rich bigoted conservative (ooohhh). No such luck. Conservative yes, rich and bigoted no. My job involves daily work with the poor and very sick mentally ill in an institution where whites are a significant minority. Not a lot of funds here. Good luck to you sir.

[cosmik debris]

23. I don't care how much you've got, only how much you give.

If you offer to give your life, and then give nothing, you are a blowhard. Your offer is disingenuous and empty. Your failure to follow through is an indication that you are not willing to live up to your own standards. Your words are meaningless without actions.

And you are still dodging the question "Do you really believe that Christianity is in danger of being silenced in the USA? Why can't you answer that question? What forces do you see suppressing the majority of Americans? Are you living in some sort of paranoid fantasy?"

Do you really believe that a handful of academics can silence 75% of US citizens? Who do you believe will shut down the Mega-Churches? Who will turn off the TV preachers? There is certainly no shortage of opportunities for Christians to promote their opinions and you have presented nothing that indicates that they are in any danger of losing their dominant (and domineering) position in American society.

Just because you are denied the opportunity to use venues provided by the taxpayer doesn't entitle you to claim the martyrdom of the persecuted.

And if you don't want your opinions to be ridiculed, don't espouse ridiculous opinions--it's that easy.




(The Smallkowskis attended a public school. If you want to know more about the Smallkowski family, Google is replete with links.)

[cmlove]

24. Dodging the question - take two...

Do you think by shouting louder you can get your opinion across. You don't seem to understand or are else uninformed about the dominant state of excessive liberalism in Academia today. Check the research please. You also didn't read my Voltaire statement very carefully. I said that I kind of liked the sound of his quote, that it was heading in the right direction, not that I had the courage to do that myself. I never made an offer of sacrifice; evidently you failed to see that. However, if I had to, I would sacrifice my life to fight off an intruder from my family. You also dodged my comment about offering to give up your life for someone else.

You also don't seem to understand that the American legal system built on legal precedent. One court in one part of the country can prohibit the actions of citizens in another part of the country through legal precedent. That is what is called Judicial Fiat or legislating from the Bench. It is a favorite tool of the left when they have been unable to get an "elected body" to pass the bill that they want. Also, have you heard of the Fairness Doctrine that the left is trying to push through to limit free speech on the public airways? A few other things, Christians ARE American taxpayers. And, Christians are NOT denied the opportunity to use venues provided by the taxpayer, check your facts please. The Supreme Court has upheld the rights of Christian students to use public venues, including school campus sites, for non-governmentally sponsored Christian activities (e.g., student sponsored Bible studies).

So why are you so afraid of allowing Christians freedom of speech? Don't liberal/socialist ideas hold up very well in an argument? Or must you, like other leftists, jump down to the childhood level of name calling. Or, are you just another relativist who believes that everything is all right, except conservative opinion of course. As for ridiculous opinions, history is full of small people who have shouted small ideas very loudly only to be forgotten. Wasn't it John Lennon who said the Beatles were more popular than God? How often is John Lennon mentioned today in the public square?

I do believe that Christianity itself is in no danger of being erased from human thought or history. However, I think it is unfair to silence free speech, unless it is directly establishing danger (e.g., yelling fire). How would you feel if a school district again started to bash gays or ethnic minorities? Just because the Christian faith is not a minority does not mean it should be not be appropriately protected as other faiths and belief systems are. Is it a hate crime to ridicule Christians? Hopefully never because I am for free speech. Yet, you seem unwilling to allow Christians their rightful co-equal place in the marketplace of ideas. Has someone who professed the Christian faith hurt you before? If so, I apologize for such a wrong-headed action by someone bearing the name Christian.

As for you ridiculing my beliefs, I don't think you understand who I am or what I am saying. To me, that is being close-minded. I am not paranoid and I am not willing to let you redefine who I am. Shouting louder or being more nasty will not change anyone's opinions. Again, good luck to you... may you find true happiness.

[cosmik debris]

25. Apparently you are new to the internet.

On the internet shouting is the use of all upper case letters. That is certainly not what I have done.

You also seem to be ill-informed on the meaning and usage of the word "if" in English sentences. If you had read my post more carefully, you could have avoided much of your post.

Your presumption that Christians are being denied freedom of speech is contradicted by numerous facts. I believe I mentioned TV preachers and mega churches. There is absolutely no challenge to either of these uses of their freedom of speech. In fact, there are 213 churches within 50 miles of my home. And freedom of speech is practiced in every one of them.

And as you pointed out, " The Supreme Court has upheld the rights of Christian students to use public venues, including school campus sites, for non-governmentally sponsored Christian activities..."

You have contradicted any argument that Christians are being silenced. In fact, you have proved that Christians are not being silenced. And yet you still whine about how persecuted Christians are.

Let's face it, When Christians are not allowed to dominate, they whine about persecution. If you don't include "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, they scream bloody murder. If you talk about taking the mention of god off of our money, Christians come unglued. Nothing short of absolute domination is sufficient for the Christian right. And any mention of giving non-Christians equal time and equal rights is automatically considered un American.

I really think you are on the wrong forum. This is a forum of open minded liberals not reactionary conservatives. We don't want your theocracy. We want equality for other points of view. We want freedom from the oppression that Christianity has historically brought to all it came into contact with.

Let me remind you of the rules we have here:

Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

Since you obviously do not fit in here, I would suggest that you politely withdraw.

[cmlove]

26. No problem

I guess you are asking me, the conservative Christian, to be silent. An interesting thought in light of this thread. Group think is a dangerous thing. Enjoy your myopia, I have much better things to do.

[cosmik debris]

27. I'm not asking you to be silent

That's your persecution complex.

I'm asking you to go where you are welcome.

I'm asking you politely to waste some one else's band width.

This is not the site for conservatives.

[Realityhack]

34. well put cosmic. BTW...

is there a way to report a user as opposed to a post?

[CatholicEdHead]

9. Actually, this group infers that if you are not 100% accepted

you are persecuted in some way. That they cannot live as Christians unless everyone submits to them in some form of modern-Christian Theocracy. :puke:

[Random_Australian]

11. What was that? 500 years?

"Why is it that these pundits must go back 500 years to find something despicable from organized Christianity?"

Readers please note that I consider actions, not people or organisations, to be despicable.

Organised christianity has, by virtue of telling people contraception is evil/wrong/lustful/whatever, helped add to the AIDS crisis.

Despicable right there! We'll get on to the whole "teaching faith over reason" thing next. :)

Christianity is just as fallible as any other organisation, and just as prone to bullshit and doing dumb things.

(Note: "just as" isn't actually true; something with good error control (like a democracy) will go better, something like a dictatorship will go worse.)

"What is interesting about the left is that they never seem to remember the intolerance of their own movement"

What is interesting about your words is that you seem to be referring to the left using a broad brush.

As if I could select a rightwing person, and the most evil rightwing person I could find, and say "what is interesting about that rightwing person is they seem to forget how truly evil they are" without bieng full of shit.

National socialists were rightwing ... the evil bastard you are after is Stalin.

[cmlove]

12. National Socialists

The Nazi Party was a fascist organization, bent on intolerance and extermination of those who didn't conform. From my perspective the left screams much louder when they perceive a wrong and are less likely to vocalize their tolerance for others outside of their norm.

Please tell me in the Bible where Jesus exterminated someone who didn't conform? If Christians are wrong about going to heaven then who cares, they are just crazy in their beliefs. If they are right, however, then, of course, God has determined what will happen to the non-believer. Christianity, in it's original form was not an organization, but a gathering of people with a belief they were willing to die for. Very few people, including most Christians, belief this passionately today. I agree with you that modern religion is very fallible but Jesus was the only person to claim to be without sin. People of all stripes make mistakes and do bad things as well as good things. It is strange when people are grouped into mass categories without an appreciation for the goodness in others.

[Random_Australian]

14. No dodging the subject. You asked

"Why is it that these pundits must go back 500 years to find something despicable from organized Christianity?"

And I gave an example from modern-day times.

And seriously, what has "Please tell me in the Bible where Jesus exterminated someone who didn't conform?" got to do with anything?

Of course he didn't. Suprisingly enough (are you ready for this shocker?) nothing I said implied he did, or required him to.

How about that!

"If Christians are wrong about going to heaven then who cares, they are just crazy in their beliefs. If they are right, however, then, of course, God has determined what will happen to the non-believer."

You do realise that when there is equal amounts of evidence for two things, you must assess their probability as equal, right?

On the one hand, there is no evidence for this God thing that sends unbelievers to hell.

On the other hand, there is no evidence for a God thing that sends believers to hell.

Since zero = zero, the chances of the two are equal and you gain nothing. Have a nice day.

"Jesus was the only person to claim to be without sin" - sorry, but claims mean exactly nothing. Evidence is meaningful. As of now, I am the only person to claim that eggplants are a nutritious source of anti-sin. Doesn't make it true.

I finish this post with two of your quotes - you can compare and contrast at your leisure.

"It is strange when people are grouped into mass categories without an appreciation for the goodness in others."

"What is interesting about the left is that they never seem to remember the intolerance of their own movement."

The left are intolerant. You don't like to put people into groups. I am living on what planet again?

Actually, that wasn't quite finally. I also notice you say "From my perspective the left screams much louder when they perceive a wrong and are less likely to vocalize their tolerance for others outside of their norm"

which is interesting for two reasons.

1) Potrayal of the left as emotionally driven
2) Potrayal of the left as intolerant. Yah. The left certainly has been against social equality; which is why they were 100% against equal rights for women, equality of the races, and were staunchly for segregation. In a parallel reality.

So, what makes you think the left is intolerant of those outside their norm?

[cmlove]

18. Dodging the question...

FYI,
Dr. Martin Luther King was a Republican (equality of the races)
http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.DYK-Why%20MLK%20was%20a%20Republican&tp_preview=true

President Abraham Lincoln was a Republican (freeing the slaves)

November 1916: Jeannette Rankin, Republican suffrage organizer from Montana becomes first woman elected to Congress.
January 1918: Jeannette Rankin introduces suffrage amendment on floor of House.

With intense drama, amendment passes House 274 to 136 (exactly the amount for 2/3 majority needed for constitutional amendment) -- four Congressmen with deciding votes are forced to leave sick beds and hospitals to vote for the amendment, one member rushes to House chambers from death bed of his wife who made him promise with her dying breath to vote in favor of suffrage.

Neither the left or the right are homogeneous groups. As for extreme left wing intolerance see:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+brutal+face+of+%22tolerance%22:+San+Francisco's+radical-left+elected...-a0129169470

http://abortionviolence.com/ So just how many pro-lifers have committed crimes against pro-choice advocates?

I'm sure you will be able to find an extreme right wing example on the web. My original point remains a call for free speech and tolerance for all sides. I find your passionate response, expletives included, an example of the emotionally driven left. Macbeth is a very good play.

[Random_Australian]

19. Bad move.

1) You said that the left was intolerant "What is interesting about the left is that they never seem to
remember the intolerance of their own movement"

I said that this was not true; noting the involvement in various social causes.

Your respose was that there have been right-wing people invovled in social causes.

Think about it. Does my rebuttal of your first statement require that no rightwing person, ever, was part of a social cause? No. It clearly didn't.

Therefore my initial criticism of your statement stands.

2) Some more of your quotes:

"Please don't quote me about the nuts out there that claim to be Christians. All sides have their nuts."

Note: Between these two quotes, I provided an example of a left-wing nutcase. As I was clearly unaware that any left-wing person was ever nuts, you decided to educate me.

"As for extreme left wing intolerance see: (URL)"

3) "Neither the left or the right are homogeneous groups" Which is a perfectly reasonable statement. Well, it does seem a little odd to say as no-one was arguing to the contrary.

I find the histrionics that you have been driven into by this topic amusing, the way you must be weeping and wailing at your keyboard


....


... well, not quite. I don't actually presume to have had any impact on you. And if I do have an impact, there is almost no way for me to tell, because the internet leaves so much open to interpretation.

"I find your passionate response, expletives included, an example of the emotionally driven left"

The same courtesy would be appreciated. If you could see me here, you would not be using the words "passionate" or "emotional".

As for the expletives, I swear sometimes.

One last thing: "My original point remains a call for free speech and tolerance for all sides" I'd *love* to hear an example of someone here saying there should not be free speech. Please.

[onager]

31. Well, he exterminated that fig tree...

For refusing to bear fruit out of season. Which made ol' Jesus look not only childish, but pretty stupid.

This is just for argument's sake, of course, since the Jesus character of the New Testament is a fictional Frankenstein mostly cobbled up from much older myths. Then stitched together with the rantings of the uncountable messiahs, prophets, and holy-rollers wandering the streets of Jerusalem circa 30 CE.

The Buy-bull reminds me of Dr. Samuel Johnson's wisecrack when a would-be writer sent him an unsolicited manuscript: "Your book is both good and original. Unfortunately, the good parts are not original and the original parts are not good."

[dmallind]

30. Sugar and porridge eh?

So you want examples of despicable behavior from Christians recently but then tell me I can't list actions by Christian nuts. Who else but nuts engage in despicable behavior?

But while we're at it. Phelps, McVeigh, Rudolph, pederasty in the church, abuse of kids at bible schools all spring to mind but lemme guess - if anyone beats a kid to death because they think they are not obedient enough to God, or if anybody blows up a gay nightclub because the patrons are offensive to God you're going to say they are not REAL Christians, right?

Never heard that one before...

[Feron]

33. Godwin's law aside...

Most complaints arise from Christians trying to legislate the tenets and beliefs of their religion and trying to sneak it in public schools through the backdoor. Nobody would care if Christians simply practiced their religion in a secular society.

Unfortunately many of these Christian leaders seem to think that pushing their religion onto others is the only way to go. Secular and people of other religions rightfully complain when they feel like their rights are being trampled on. A country with Christian laws to me is about as undesirable as a country with Sharia laws. In either case both women, minorities, and people with differing beliefs will get the shaft. Religion doesn't work in government.

Not to mention that these same Christians that whine about being silenced would think nothing of silencing people of other faiths or those who think differently. Of course it's ridiculous to complain about being silenced when you are in the majority.

Anyhow nobody is trying to silence, ban, or prevent Christians from practicing or being open about their religion. What people do want is for Christians to quit trying to codify their religion into law. Like it or not, this is a secular nation.

I don't care if you walk down the street praying with cross necklaces and Jesus Christ sandwich board on. Just don't use the law to favor or force your beliefs onto others. And legislating their religion into law is exactly what the AFA and like minded organizations are trying to do.

The funny thing is--Christian students meeting in a public building wouldn't be a big deal if it weren't for the fundies trying to force their religion onto everyone else. People often have a kneejerk reaction to Christians meeting in public buildings because they feel like there might be an ulterior motive present. And the paranoia isn't always unfounded when you consider that groups such as the AFA advocate tearing down the separation of church and state wall at every opportunity.

Only of course when the faith that is favored is theirs.

And even with all of this 'silencing' you can still openly pass out your Jack Chick tracts and preach fire and brimstone on a sidewalk without fear of losing your life, job, or property. Certainly the members of the White Rose Society weren't as privileged as you are.

[Rob H.]

10. Ugh....

I live in the Bible Belt, so there are literally half a dozen churches within a two-mile radius of my apartment, I see the Jesus fish on a lot of cars along with those "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" bumperstickers, and there's still jackassery like this about how people are trying to silence Christians? :eyes:

[CatholicEdHead]

16. I guess they have a following of only 42,000

from the last email I received from them. You can watch the first episode here with all the gushing comments. :puke:

http://www.silencingchristians.com/video4.aspx (28min flash)

They also have a blog to leave comments here:

http://www.silencingchristians.com/blog.aspx?id=199&blogid=32

[CatholicEdHead]

32. Ok, you can watch the first 2 episodes online if you want

pretty scary stuff. :puke:

Episode 1:

Low bandwidth
http://www.silencingchristians.com/video1of.aspx

High Bandwidth:
http://www.silencingchristians.com/video2of.aspx

Episode 2:
Low bandwidth:
http://www.silencingchristians.com/video3of.aspx

High bandwidth:
http://www.silencingchristians.com/video4of.aspx