How do Mormons believe the story of Joseph Smith?

[OlderButWiser]

I was in my room one night.
Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.
Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.
He tells me an amazing story.
He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.
On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.
These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.
Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.
Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.
Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.
I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.
And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!
I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=214

How do you tell a story like that without laughing? And why would anyone believe it? And why is there no archaeological proof of this ancient civilization?

[Speck Tater]

1. Almost as crazy as that "Virgin Birth" nonsense, eh? NT

[ben_meyers]

10. What's not to believe? It's faith !

[elfin]

2. They believe it just like all other religion followers believe

the stories of their origin.

In other words - most do not "believe" it, but do find the culture associated with whatever story congenial to their lives, and are prepared to profess belief to partake of the benefits of the community.

I am a profound skeptic, who has a very good friend who is a Mormon -- who "lives the life", but scoffs at Smith. However, she loves the structure and the family values inherent in that church.

I have given up trying to understand her -- she is bright, hilarious, cynical -- and YET devotes a good part of her days to that strange organization.

[theoldman]

3. There is no archaeological or historical proof of most of the

old testament either. I will go so far as to say there is zero proof of the book of Genesis. Why do you think people still believe in it? Because they want to. The same goes for the Book of Mormon.

[MichaelHarris]

4. I wrote a whole deal

on that Smith dude running from bandits jumping fences and stuff while he carried hundreds of pounds of gold tablets. Man I had math, physics, and stuff complete with 8X10s and charts. Some goofy mod deleted it. I haven't written much since. DU ain't what it used to be.

[angrycarpenter]

5. With faith there is no need for rationality

Their faith says believe in this and go to heaven. It does not matter that is a bunch of hogwash. They fear hell so much that they will believe anything to avoid going there.

If you knew with absolute certainty that hell existed you would bow before the spaghetti monster if it would keep you from going.

[rox63]

6. Sounds like Smith was stoned off his ass

:smoke:

[OlderButWiser]

11. I guess the product he had to sell

was bigamy.

[MercutioATC]

7. You missed part of the tale...

Between "Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.
Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them."

and

"Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again."

is:

"I'm illiterate, so I have a neighbor copy the golden plates for me.
I can't actually let him see the plates, so I stretch a curtain across my dining room and "dictate" the plates to him.
He writes 100+ pages of these "dictations" down.
I'm a failed snake oil salesman without a lot of money, so I ask this neighbor to contribute money to spread my new message.
He mortgages his farm to do just that.
His wife gets really pissed and burns all of the pages he's copied down for me.
She tells me that if I really have golden plates, I can just dictate them to him again.
God tells me that since this woman has seen the pages, they've fallen into the hands of the Devil.
God takes away the golden plates.
God provides a set of smaller replacement plates...same general message, just not the same exact wording.
I dictate the NEW plates."

Yes, the story is THAT bizarre.

[SidDithers]

9. Pretty much just the way South Park told it too...

Joseph Smith, dum dum dum


Lucy Harris, smart smart smart

Sid

[Taverner]

13. Not only that, but much of The Book of Mormon was stolen from a book by Rev Solomon Spaulding

Called "Manuscript Found!"

It never made it to print and was lost, and Spaulding died shortly after. As for the publisher, well he is one of the 13 'Witnesses' in the beginning of every Book of Mormon.

What is "Manuscript Found!" about, pray tell? Well its about a bunch of Israelites who go to the new world on Papyrus boats and create a new empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalding%E2%80%93Rigdon_theory_of_Book_of_Mormon_authorship

[onager]

23. Papyrus boats?

How did that work? (Sorry, I'm a lazy atheist.)

I've lived in Alexandria, Egypt for almost 3 years. No ancient papyrus documents have ever been found here, and the same goes for the rest of the Lower Egypt/Nile Delta area.

The reason is simple: water, in one form or another. Alexandria has a high water table, being on the Mediterranean Sea with ancient Lake Mareotis (Mariut today) to the south. The rest of the Delta is cut with hundreds of irrigation canals, and has been since the days of the Pharoahs.

All that water destroyed papyrus as well as the mud-brick architecture favored in the region. Which means most of the ancient history in this part of Egypt has been wiped out.

That's a real shame. While northern Egypt lacks the impressive monuments found down south, this area saw some of the most interesting eras of ancient Egyptian history.

So how did those papyrus boats get all the way to America? I guess there's the old "treated with pitch" dodge, but still...

Usual Annoying Trivia:

1 A local city is one of the few places in Egypt that kept its Pharonic place-name: Dammanhor, which translates as "City Of Horus." Maybe the later rulers left the place alone because of its OTHER ancient nickname: "River Of Blood." It is located on the ancient route taken by armies invading or departing Egypt. In 1798, Napoleon's army fought there a few days before the more famous Battle Of The Pyramids.

2. Papyrus played a part in debunking a local Alexandrian legend, though a legend still believed by some.

Back in 1860, a dragoman (translator) was poking around in the underground rooms of the Nebi Daniel Mosque in Alexandria. He claimed he saw the corpse of a young, blond man in armor, lying in a glass coffin. That description only fits one famous local corpse, that of Alexander The Great.

The dragoman further claimed that the glass coffin was surrounded by ancient coins and papyrus scrolls scattered around.

Many Western visitors heard this yarn and uncritically wrote it into their guidebooks or histories. To this day, people are still petitioning the Nebi Daniel Mosque to allow excavations for Alexander's body. So far the mosque has refused, though it lets a couple of local characters make a little money by showing tourists "the site of Alexander's tomb."

The description of the ancient papyri scattered around convinced experts that the story was a bold-faced lie. But as often happens, many people prefer a lie to the truth.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Heyerdahl manged to keep a papyrus boat afloat for 57 days

and cross the Atlantic in it: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761575809/thor_heyerdahl.html

Not that I'm trying to lend credence to Mormons or Spaulding.

[htuttle]

29. I thought they stole it from The Honest Book of Truth?

THE HONEST BOOK OF TRUTH
being a BIBLE of The Erisian Movement
Episkopos LORD OMAR KHAYYAM RAVENHURST, KSC; Bull Goose of Limbo; and Master Pastor of the Church Invisible of the Laughing Christ, Hidden Temple of The Happy Jesus, Laughing Buddha Jesus (LBJ) Ranch

From the Honest Book of Truth, THE BOOK OF EXPLANATIONS, Chapter 1

1. There came one day to Lord Omar, Bull Goose of Limbo, a Messenger of Our Lady who told him of a Sacred Mound wherein was buried an Honest Book.
2. And the Angel of Eris bade of the Lord: Go ye hence and dig the Truth, that ye may come to know it and, knowing it, spread it and, spreading it, wallow in it and, wallowing in it, lie in it and, lying in the Truth, become a Poet of the Word and a Sayer of Sayings -- an Inspiration to all men and a Scribe to the Gods.
3. So Omar went forth to the Sacred Mound, which was to the East of Mullah, and thereupon he worked digging in the sand for five days and five nights, but found no book.
4. At the end of five days and five nights of digging, it came to pass that Omar was exhausted. So he put his shovel to one side and bedded himself down on the sand, using as a pillow a Golden Chest he had uncovered on the first day of his labors.
5. Omar slept.
6. On the fifth day of his sleeping, Lord Omar fell into a Trance, and there came to him in the Trance a Dream, and there came to him in the Dream a Messenger of Our Lady who told him of a Sacred Grove wherein was hidden a Golden Chest.
7. And the Angel of Eris bade of the Lord: Go ye hence and lift the Stash, that ye may come to own it and, owning it, share it and, sharing it, love in it and, loving in it, dwell in it and, dwelling in the Stash, become a Poet of the Word and a Sayer of Sayings - an Inspiration to all men and a Scribe to the Gods.
8. But Omar lamented, saying unto the Angel : What is this shit, man? What care I for the Word and Sayings? What care I for the Inspiration of all men? Wherein does it profit a man to be a Scribe to the Gods when the Scribes of the Governments do nothing, yet are paid better wages?
9. And, lo, the Angel waxed in anger and Omar was stricken to the Ground by an Invisible Hand and did not arise for five days and five nights.
10. And it came to pass that on the fifth night he dreampt, and in his Dream he had a Vision, and in this Vision there came unto him a Messenger of Our Lady who entrusted to him a Rigoletto cigar box containing many filing cards, some of them in packs with rubber bands around, and upon these cards were sometimes written verses, while upon others nothing was written.
11. Thereupon the Angel Commanded to Lord: Take ye this Honest Book of Truth to thine bosom and cherish it. Carry it forth into The Land and Lay it before Kings of Nations and Collectors of Garbage. Preach from it unto the Righteous, that they may renounce their ways and repent."

...

3. And though Omar did bid of the Collector of Garbage, in words that were both sweet and bitter, to surrender back the cigar box containing the cards designated by the Angel as The Honest Book of Truth, the Collector was to him as one who might be smitten deaf, saying only: 'Gainst the rules, y'know.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/5.php

...or was it the other way around...never been sure of that.

:shrug:

[mwb970]

8. It's even stranger than that.

Smith was a total con man and came up with some really crazy crap, all of which his followers swallowed without a word. I recently read this book about the Mormon Church. I swear, it was like reading a book about crazy people. Unbelievable.

[hunter]

19. The author of that book is also concerned about Harry Potter...

Harry Potter and the Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick

http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Bible-Menace-Behind/dp/0889652015

Abane's official website is here.

Just for fun, a whole lot of crazy crap goes on in his own Christian Community, very much comparable to the craziness of the modern Mormon Community.

Try this link for just a little taste of it: http://abanes.com/warrensmith.html

:wtf:

I figure for all the trouble of belonging to a Christian Community of any sort, I might as well be Catholic, especially in my neck of the woods. That makes me crazy too, I'm certain of it.

[edhopper]

12. Imagine that

A con man who invents a religion for his own benefit.

[Realityhack]

14. LOL - that was going to be my response.

For the OP:
Seriously though there are all kinds of psychological factors that cause people to believe in absolutely crazy shit.
If you want to see it in action read some psychology/sociology texts... and then take a stroll through the September 11th forums.

[edhopper]

15. If you cherish your sanity

you might think twice before taking that stroll. :-)

[Realityhack]

20. I failed to think once... I think my IQ dropped about 40 points n/t

[hunter]

18. Hell, take a stroll through GDP...

All sorts of people there believing in crazy shit.

I'm so glad I can hide it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. I find that I am no longer capable of reading or hearing anything about Mormonism without...

...that "dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb" song from South Park playing in my head.

[Disturbed]

17. Men wanted many women to fornicate with so they went along

with Smith's BS. The amazing part is how many women went along
with this scam.

[Kitty Herder]

27. They sent missionaries to Europe, who converted women, convinced them to move to Utah. They left out

the whole polygamy thing. The women didn't find out about that until they got here.

Plus, if you convince someone they're going to go to hell if they don't go along with your perverse desires, they're likely to acquiesce.

Polygamy was not originally part of Smith's new religion. The Book of Mormon actually condemns it. So many people already believed the whole thing by the time Joseph revealed "the Principle" to cover for his own adultery.

[struggle4progress]

21. Many people have ideas that strike me as odd, just as many of my ideas seem odd to others

These mutual suspicions of oddity extend far beyond the theological realm: you can easily find in the US people who believe with religious ardor (and without the slightest shred of hard evidence) that laissez faire capitalism is guaranteed to produce optimal results, that the species homo sapiens can be meaningfully divided into "races," that Reagan was a great president, and so on

We all like to tell ourselves that our ideas are not odd and that it everyone else who is odd, but (in fact) everybody has odd ideas of some sort. If one sets out to ignore or insult or intimidate everyone whose ideas seem strange, then there is nobody left to learn from. And if one finds many ideas "odd," one has no real hope of debunking all of them

So one should tolerate the ideas that simply seem odd but harmless and concentrate on particular notions that are immediately dangerous: as an example from a few years ago, one might point out the odd and dangerous notion that many people adopted (without the slightest shred of hard evidence) that Iraq had attacked us on 9/11 and was preparing for bigger future attacks

What then is the point of sneering at Mormons? I don't really understand their ideas, which I find odd -- but as a group they don't seem to represent any immediate threat to anybody: as a group they seem to prize sincerity and wholesomeness

[and-justice-for-all]

22. Mormonism is so ridiculous ...

John Smith is was quack-pot manipulating control freak.

There is no proof because Mr. Smith made the whole damn thing up..aka FRAUD.

[rexcat]

24. As in all religions...

it is easier to believe in simple absurdities than complex realties!

[edhopper]

26. Seems like the truth about this has been out there

for almost 100 years.

The New York Times
Sunday, December 29, 1912
Museum Walls Proclaim Fraud of Mormon Prophet

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/nytimes1912papyrus.htm

Sacred Books Claimed to Have Been Given Divinely
to the First Prophet Are Shown to be Taken from
Old Egyptian Originals, Their Translation Being a
Work of the Imagination---What a Comparison
with Metropolitan Museum Treasures Shows.

[Kitty Herder]

31. But Mormons believe it's a sin to look at "anti-Mormon" literature, i.e. anything that doesn't

agree with official, current LDS doctrine.

They live in an information bubble.

[Boojatta]

28. With a little creativity, it can be made to fit the book of revelation.

He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York. On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America. (...) Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.

We knew God was using gold to pave streets in the New Jerusalem:
"And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass."

Now we know where God is getting the gold from. It's just as he said: "Behold, I come as a thief."

[Kitty Herder]

30. People generally believe what they're taught as children.

That's the case with any religion.

I have no idea why people convert, however.

[Rabrrrrrr]

32. I'm willing to let pass almost all religions, but Mormonism and Scientology are just batshit crazy.

There is almost nothing good in Mormonism, and it's whole basis is so utterly fucked up and unbelievable, it's clearly a complete scam.

And scientology has nothing good in it, and it's clearly a complete scam.

Moon's religion is also evil crap.

[Kitty Herder]

33. But it's hard to see how screwed up Mormonism is if you're raised in it.

I was twenty-four when I finally gave it up. I'd had issues with it as long as I can remember, but it took me that long to completely throw off the belief.

If you're taught something is true from childhood and that if you don't believe it, you won't go to heaven, it's hard to see it objectively.

One thing the Mormon church does to keep people from learning the truth about it is forbidding its members from reading what they call, "anti-Mormon" literature. That includes original, historic documents from time period of the church's founding. Mormons are only allowed to read official church publications regarding church history, publications that put forward a highly revised, "faith-promoting" version of that history.