Buddhism fastest growing religion in West

[ZombieHorde]

Colombo, 07 April, (Asiantribune.com): Buddhism is being recognized as the fastest growing religion in Western societies both in terms of new converts and more so in terms of friends of Buddhism, who seek to study and practice various aspects of Buddhism.

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Link:
http://www.asiantribune.com/?q=node/10418

[hlthe2b]

1. I see this as an immense positive....

At least with the current Dalai Lama, there is a tremendous appreciation and compatability within Buddhism for all religions (and for those who profess none as well).

[Atman]

2. Buddhism isn't a religion

If it's growing that fast in the West, we're bound to completely fuck it up, though.

Read "Buddhism Without Beliefs." A great primer.

.

[ZombieHorde]

3. "Buddhism isn't a religion"

That is just semantics.

[Atman]

8. It's not "just semantics" if you know anything about Buddhism

The fact that people have chosen to MAKE a religion of it is beside the point. Buddhism is simply not a religion. Just ask the Buddha if you see him (but be sure to kill him afterward).

.

[ZombieHorde]

12. The Dali Lama says that it is a religion.

Although I have found my own Buddhist religion helpful in generating love and compassion, even for those we consider our enemies, I am convinced that everyone can develop a good heart and a sense of universal responsibility with or without religion.

http://www.spiritual-endeavors.org/peace/dalilama.htm

But I guess that you know more about Buddhism than he does. I am sure that all those books you once read make you more qualified.

[sam sarrha]

18. Tibetan is a conceptual language, he doesn't sweat the small stuf, a religion involves a Deity that

creates the universe, and rules it and the people in it, extorting people to worship him under pain of eternal suffering

the gods in Buddhism are born, get old and suffer death/rebirth. their unimaginable powers can not save them from the suffering of Samsara, so it follows they cant save us either..there is that pesky Buddhist logic again..
and your snippy comment at the end doesn't mean you know what you ate talking about either.

if it makes people happy because they need to have it be a religion.. that is fine, no problem. but in the Western concept of god/religion it is not religion.

Buddhism is based on meditation, which is simply a method of training the mind.. it has nothing to do with god

the fashion in which the Dalia Lams sees western thought he probably feels we are more comfortable with that.

our Lama thought Christians tried to live a good life so that they could be reborn into the God Realm to be with their god.. when i tried to explain they wanted to be born "Human" in the god realm to be with their god he got "TOTALLY" confused.. it doesn't work that way, and he didn't want to be rude to anyone and pop their illusion.

so when they say 'religion' they dont really mean it like we do...

[ZombieHorde]

30. "a religion involves a Deity that creates the universe, and rules it and the people in it..."

This seems to be your personal definition of religion, not the dictionary definition of religion.

[sam sarrha]

13. please knock off the 'kill the Buddha' crap..showing your ignorance.. that isnt Buddhism, or a Buddh

ist teaching. there is no killing in the 8 fold path... popular but WRONG.

[Atman]

23. Uh...you ever hear of a "metaphor?"

"The idea of "killing the Buddha" comes from a famous Zen line, the context of which is easy to imagine: After years on his cushion, a monk has what he believes is a breakthrough: a glimpse of nirvana, the Buddhamind, the big pay-off. Reporting the experience to his master, however, he is informed that what has happened is par for the course, nothing special, maybe even damaging to his pursuit. And then the master gives the student dismaying advice: If you meet the Buddha, he says, kill him.

Why kill the Buddha? Because the Buddha you meet is not the true Buddha, but an expression of your longing. If this Buddha is not killed he will only stand in your way.

Why Killing the Buddha ? For our purposes, killing the Buddha is a metaphor for moving past the complacency of belief, for struggling honestly with the idea of God. As people who take faith seriously, we are endlessly amazed and enraged that religious discourse has become so bloodless, parochial and boring. Any God worth the name is none of these things. Yet when people talk about God they are talking mainly about the Buddha they meet. For fear of seeming intolerant or uncertain, or just for lack of thinking, they talk about a God too small to be God."

http://www.killingthebuddha.com/manifesto.htm

It's not crap at all. Maybe the above reference will help. It's from one of very first of 843,000 Google hits on the topic, but maybe the other 842,999 say something different. Who knows?

[sam sarrha]

29. after years on his cushion only he could understand that.. you are doing less practiced persons a

disservice advocating something they dont understand, I'll bet a paycheck you know squat about Zen.. if you are not a certified Zen Monk..
...knock off the killing bullshit... you do not know what you are talking about and are misleading others.. bad karma

[Atman]

33. What "killing bullshit?"

Good grief, man...we seem to be in agreement about 100%, except for your dislike of the word "killing." Talk about bad karma...your tone and your attempts to shoot me down aren't doing you any favors, my friend. I'm not talking about "killing" anyone, let alone the buddha. Why on earth did you let yourself get so hung up on that particular METAPHORICAL reference?

And the concept of betting a paycheck on my knowledge of Zen is downright comical!

Let's you and I call a truce on this one now. Nothing I hate more than seeing two people essentially in agreement wind up tearing each other down based upon misconstrued interpretations of message board posts. Clearly, were we to be sitting together having a face to face discussion we could be more in depth in the explanation of our points. YOU just seem to be getting nasty, then having the nerve to suggest I'll suffer bad karma because you don't like my posts.

Man...DU never ceases to amaze me.

.

[sam sarrha]

36. we are not in agreement.. in the 8 fold path.. one of the 8 is "NO KILLING", your cherished metaphor

can lead others to miss understand. you grasp very tightly to something that is a misconception. a personal teaching best kept personal..

in Islam in the Koran they speak of killing.. no where in the Tipitaka is Killing mentioned other Than NOT KILLING

it is offencive, IT IS NOT DHARMA.. YOU ARE TEACHING IT AS DHARMA...IT IS NOT

I know of no one who has accepted Renuciation who would ever repeat that, it is not Dharma. i know the context, it is not Dharma, it is old Zen in a day when debates on whether Zen was even Buddhism, was Zen based on Dharma or situational momentary insight.. is that even enlightenment

[pingzing58]

72. Originally Buddhism is not a religion. It seems it's natural for people to make it so.

[Warpy]

9. Actually, it's not

which you'd know if you'd looked into it.

It's a philosophy that has been turned into a folk religion by several sects.

[ZombieHorde]

15. Dictionary.com

re·li·gion Audio Help /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

[Atman]

16. Yeah, how silly of me to take the teachings of Buddha over Dictionary.com

:eyes:

.

[ZombieHorde]

20. Dictionaries define our mordern day language.

I offered two links, one from the Dali Lama, who is often considered to be an expert on Buddhism, defining Buddhism as a religion. And one from a dictionary, which are often considered to be accurate in their definitions of words.

If you wish to change my mind, why not show me something I can work with.

[sam sarrha]

32. modern day western language can not describe Buddhist concepts, it takes a dedicated effort to learn

some Sanskrit, contemplation and meditation to train the mind to understand it.. at least a year of regular daily meditation guided by a trained teachrer, at least an hour a day before one can acquire the Skillful means to begin to understand it....

[ZombieHorde]

41. "modern day western language can not describe Buddhist concepts"

This has no bearing on our religion/not religion debate. Buddhism clearly fits within the English definition.

[sam sarrha]

25. Atman.. is the Hindu version of what westerners call the soul, there is a Hindu movement to usurp

Buddhism into Hinduism, by declaring the Buddha to actually be Vishnu..

which isn't really popular with Buddhists, there is no soul in Buddhism, nothing inherently exists in Buddhism, there is no concept of soul, more like a "Thought Stream" ever changing.. till it reaches enlightenment

[Atman]

27. I don't believe in the religious concept of a soul, either

I selected the screen name years ago, basically as a tongue-in-cheek reference to having achieved "ultimate political enlightenment."

.

[bananas]

68. Buddha himself set up a system of monks and monasteries

Exactly where did Buddha say he wasn't teaching religion?
He set up a system of monks and monasteries,
that goes way beyond simply espousing a philosophy.
Buddha established a religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism

<snip>

Buddhism during the lifetime of Gautama Buddha

Pre-sectarian Buddhism was a changing form of Buddhism, with Gautama Buddha defining and refining the proper behaviour for monks<21> (Vinaya), with the help of monks like Upali.<22> The rules were frequently amended to allow for certain (harmless) kinds of behaviour which was forbidden in a previous version of the rule.

The Pre-sectarian Buddhist monks' order grew from a small unknown order of highly dedicated monks (in the year after the attainment of Nirvana) to a large, well-established and well-known order, which needed more formalities and more rules to uphold the correct teachings and discipline.<23> It was relatively sober<24> and the monks were not supposed to go to public festivals (number 7 of the ten precepts), and were expected to refrain from activities such as playing<25> and dancing.<26> The monks were not allowed to show off their supernatural abilities.<27> They were also not allowed to use or receive money,<28> in order to lead a simple life of contentment.

In the beginning the order of monks (Sangha) did not have any monasteries, but already in its first year the Buddha allowed these to be given, after being asked to do so by King Bimbisara.<29> Many of the these monasteries were based in parks or forests, for example Veluvana, Jetavana and Nigrodharama. One of the buildings given was a very well-furnished building, comparable to a palace, called the Migaramatupasada.<30>

The Buddha, as the leader and main teacher, was the one who decided on the rules to be followed,<31> but the executive power lay with the monastic community as a whole.<32> Buddha forbade the monastic community to make their own rules<33> and gave instructions for the monks to still follow his teaching (doctrine and discipline) after his death.<34> Thus, He did not appoint a successor <35><36><37><38> to have legislative power over the Sangha and the monks. He gave limited powers to the Sangha to unanimously agree to not follow the 'lesser and minor' rules.<39>

<snip>

[Warpy]

17. I am delighted you put that much faith

in a lexicographer who is just as ignorant of Buddhism as you are.

Maybe you should listen to Buddhists instead of men who write dictionary definitions without first finding out what they're about.

Of course, religious people can see things only in their own terms, so this is probably a wasted post.

[ZombieHorde]

21. "just as ignorant of Buddhism as you are."

I see that you can not argue the points that I made.

My first point is from a Buddhist source that I trust: The Dali Lama

My second point is from a secular source that I trust: a dictionary

Please show me a better source that states that Buddhism is not a religion.

[Atman]

24. Of course I can't argue with the points you made...there is no argument.

You're points are simply wrong, and you are simply wrong. What's to argue?

.

[ZombieHorde]

28. "You're points are simply wrong, and you are simply wrong."

Why do you believe this?

[Atman]

34. samsarrha and Warpy have already provided excellent explanations.

You just don't want to hear it.

.

[ZombieHorde]

37. "You just don't want to hear it."

Warpy told me that I should listen to a Buddhist, I guess that the Dali Lama does not count. I wonder why.

sam sarrha uses his own definition of religion, which is a little different than the actual definition.

If there is something that I am missing, please share.

[sam sarrha]

26. Zombie.. hmmm why bother, you're cherry picking, if it makes you happy, you win

[ZombieHorde]

31. "you're cherry picking"

How so?

[sam sarrha]

35. it works like this.. you have a 'belief' not founded thru investigation you pick what sounds like

support for your belief.. but you don't understand that either

when we try to inform you, it conflicts with your belief, so you blame external elements for your confusion rather than admit you are confused,

called an Apriori Loop, you come to the same conclusion reguardless of where anothers input is offered

[ZombieHorde]

40. "when we try to inform you, it conflicts with your belief,"

Does it seem reasonable to take the word of an anonymous poster over the word of the Dali Lama's statement that Buddhism is a religion and the dictionary definition of what the English word "religion" means?

you come to the same conclusion reguardless of where anothers input is offered

Are you sure that you are not talking about yourself?

[sam sarrha]

44. i gave Renunciation to th Abbot of the Dalia Lama's Monastery, my Root Guru was the Chant Master of

the Dalai Lama's Monastery.. i had many discussions about religion, i was with my Lama many times when new people asked about Buddhism and Religion.. it isn't a big deal to them, they would rather you entertain that small misconception than get hung up on this stupid boring argument, religion may translate but it doesn't mean the same thing, Buddhism is a Psychology, a method of mind.

i heard many times, these questions.. Qu/can i practice Buddhism and be a Christian?.. An/ yes Qu/can i be a Buddhist and a Christian? An/ no

the reason is Buddhism isn't a Religion, you cant believe you can be absolved your Karma by a god..

Buddhists practice "Religiously" adverb i believe.. not a noun

do you know of any religion that doesn't have a god that creates/rules/intervenes the universe..??. in Buddhism the origin of the universe isn't even addressed.. it is considered a distraction, it is of no consequence

but if it makes you happy, and a more compassionate and tollerant person.. it doesnt matter

[ZombieHorde]

45. do you know of any religion that doesn't have a god that creates/rules/intervenes the universe..??.

Thelema, Toaism, and Buddhism are the first to come to mind. Though Thelema is not recognized by the U.S. government.

in Buddhism the origin of the universe isn't even addressed.. it is considered a distraction, it is of no consequence

It does not need to in order to qualify as a religion. Gods and creation beliefs are not necessary for a religion.

[sam sarrha]

49. the Tao was the philosophy of Lao Tzu.. not a religion, it was a way of breaking the violent

militerism caused by Sun Tzu.. no where a religion, a peaceful way of life.. i studied it from 1967 to 80.

[sam sarrha]

50. Thelema.... Alex Crowley..pathetic Heroin addict Con man

nonononooooo

[ZombieHorde]

52. Regardless of your feelings for Crowly.

Thelema is still a religion.

[sam sarrha]

22. Robert Thurman was the first American Tibetan Monk, he returned to Princeton U, he wrote a paper on

Buddhism and got an 'F'... upon inquiry about his grade in class, the Philosophy Professor replyed.... "just because you are a Buddhist Monk, i doesn't mean you know anything about Buddhism".. a Truly American perspective about Buddhism.. repeated here.

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. Let's add another opinion to this mix

Introduction

Buddhism, the Buddha Dhamma/Dharma, a Buddha's teaching, is a religion not simply philosophy - the teaching is not an intellectual analysis of mind and matter, but also involves practice. Buddhism falls within the definitions of religion in the Oxford English Dictionary. The courts of Law have held Buddhism to be a religion, and suitable Buddhist organisations can be registered under the law as charities under the heading Advancement of Religion. Legislation relating to eductaion, and connected regulations, consider Buddhism as a religion for the purposes of teaching religious educations in schools and with regard to the membership of Standing Advisory Committees on Religious Education within education autorities.

Origin

Buddhism is not a revealed religion. It knows of no God or Creator. The Dhamma is the law of Nature. A Buddha, ( Samma Sambuddha ), on Enlightenment, perceives Absolute Reality / Truth / the Dhamma, and teaches this and establishes a Buddhist community. After some time the teaching is forgotten. Then another Buddha is Enlightened and teaches the same Dhamma. There are Buddhas of the past and there will be Buddhas of the future. The current teaching is that of Gotama/Sakyamuni Buddha. Therefore it is incorrect to say that Gotama Buddha is the 'Founder' of Buddhism.

http://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/resources/index.html

Perhaps people here are just anxious to not have it thought of as a revealed religion.

[ZombieHorde]

63. Great post.

Thanks for the link, I will have to check that out when I have time. It seems that there are many good sources stating that Buddhism is indeed a religion.

[bananas]

66. Of course it's a revealed religion - it was revealed by the Buddha!

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. No, the idea is that Buddha worked out and discovered things

which anyone else is capable of doing so. A 'revealed religion' is revealed by a deity:

re·vealed religion (r-vld)
n.
A religion founded primarily on the revelations of God to humankind.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/revealed+religion

Revelation, or revealed religion, is defined in Webster's New World Dictionary as: "God's disclosure to man of Himself."

http://www.deism.com/deism_vs.htm

[bananas]

69. I was making a pun but there is no :pun: smiley.

This thread is kind of silly.

[bananas]

65. You could say that about any religion, including Christianity.

Jesus was a philosopher, which you'd know if you'd looked into it.

[sam sarrha]

10. it is more closely related to a Psychology, based on a logical premise Known as th Four Noble Truths

more here http://www.buddhanet.net, which is a Theravada site, a good one. there is interesting audio information in their Buddhanet Audio section, link on home page

a good Mahayana site is http://www.fpmt.org

after about 5 years of three meetings a week at the Tibetan Buddhist Chenrezig Group, a Galupa group, during a group meditation i had a realization that Buddhism was a lot like a 12 step A.A. group..only more of an 8 step group for people addicted to conventional thought.

we had a Tibetan Lama we had flown over from Dharamsala, India. we gave him a stipend and a little apartment, he provided 3 meetings a week, open door invitation, days he taught meditation at the Hospice, he kept really busy helping people, till he was deported.. stupid INS ASSHOLES.

We had about 36 regulars about 26 of them X-catholics..

we had to move, i miss them every day.

Goenka's Insight Meditation association provides free 10 day Vipassina retreats all over the world..

wish i could find a Buddhist group or meditation group here in Winston Salem NC..

[ZombieHorde]

64. The first link is broken.

I believe that the second link is for a group that put out a publication that I often saw at my old job.

[TechBear_Seattle]

58. It depends on how you define "religion"

If you define religion as requiring belief in and worship of one or more supernatural entities, then you are correct.

If you define religion as a body of belief and practices which seek to address questions beyond the objective material universe, then you are entirely incorrect.

For most adherents, Buddhism sits in the slot marked "Religion." It is recognized around the planet as a religion. Temples, meditation groups and other Buddhist organizations can be organized under 501(3)(c) of the US tax code just as any religious group may be organized. In countries with a significant Buddhist population, Buddhism holds the same social, moral and cultural position as, say, the Church of England holds in the UK or Catholicism holds in Italy or Judaism holds in Israel. Certainly, that must count for something.

Also, note that while some schools of Buddhism (such as in Theravada) do not have a place for gods in their practices, other schools have divinity-type beings (such as in Mahayana) or actually do embrace the worship of gods (such as in Vajrayana, practiced mainly in Himalayan countries such as Tibet and Nepal.) All schools acknowledge the existence of gods; most, however, class worship or devotion as an attachment that binds a soul to the Illusion that is the universe.

[CountAllVotes]

4. it is also the #1 growing religion in IRELAND

The Irish are SICK of all of these pervert priests! They fear their children will be raped now. There are now many Buddhist temples to be found all over Ireland in fact!

:dem:

[ZombieHorde]

5. I wish that they were converting for better reasons. nt

[otohara]

6. I Don't Think It Matters

what's the proper reason?

[ZombieHorde]

14. "what's the proper reason?"

I don't know what the proper reason is, but one that does not involve kids being molested would be nice.

[sam sarrha]

38. like what..?

[ZombieHorde]

62. The desire to be a better person. nt

[CountAllVotes]

59. actually it is very sad I think

I was in Ireland a few years ago. I went to an ancient Catholic Church for High Mass (beautiful and stunning place to say the very least). There was no one there! I was really shocked to say the least.

I ran into a woman while there and she was a Buddhist and she told me that many were converting to Buddhism. It was a total :wtf: moment for me.

That said, you are correct. To covert to Buddhism requires a bit more that simply following the latest "fad" which is most certainly a large chunk of the case in Ireland. Most of the population is less than 30 years of age and they don't remember the history of their own country these days in the "New Ireland" that now exists.

:dem:

[pingzing58]

60. The end of Irish (mutton) stew. Only potatos from now on for these vegans.

[lib2DaBone]

7. .. It's a start

I went thru Buddhism back in the 70's. (I know....good for me) But, if people are looking around and starting to question, is this not a good thing? imho

[sam sarrha]

39. what Buddhist group.. my wife was into Niechern then.. not really Buddhism, i ran into Dharma Bumb

Buddhism then took me a while to discover it wasnt Busshism

[Cleita]

11. A religion or philosophy that promotes peace and compassion?

I can dig that. I hope it succeeds where Christianity failed when Constantine made it the Roman state religion.

[pingzing58]

71. You're right the downfall of religion systems is that they are syncretized by the cultures that

adopt/adapt them. If you are interested in Buddhist teaching look to the original eight-fold noble path and the four truths as found in the Dhammacakka Sutta or the "Wheel of Dhamma Discourse."

[Peace Patriot]

19. I think that all of the wisest and best people of all religions, and all the wisest

and best people of non-religious humanism are Buddhists at heart. Buddhism is compassion, peace and enlightenment. And those who really think about their religion, or, in the case of the non-religious, their core beliefs, and those who, in addition, seek higher wisdom and understanding--whatever their intellectual, social or religious context--reach a condition of mind in which religious, social, ethnic, class, sexual, racial, and national differences simply have no relevance. The differences vanish. All are human. All are equal. All are sacred. And some even find themselves on the Buddhist path to "all creation is sacred." No animal killing. All discrete living things have a right to life. All life is sacred.

Aldous Huxley wrote a book called, "The Perennial Philosophy," in which he sought out all the common denominators of the all the great religions and philosophies. And that is pretty much it: compassion, peace and enlightenment. Thomas Jefferson did something in a similar vein, called "Jefferson's Bible," in which he deletes all the patriarchal dross that he thinks was added, and seeks out the core of Jesus' teaching ("Love they neighbor").

I think that a true Buddhist would be highly compassionate about other peoples' need for religious practice and for organized religion, and might even exist as a Buddhist within an organized religion, with deep understanding of both--both the history and tradition of the given religion, and the social/community and psychological needs of others, and the Buddhist higher understanding that there are no differences, that there is nothing to argue about, and certainly nothing to fight about.

Clarity. That is the word I would use to describe Buddhism. Nothing to do with worshiping Buddha. Who was he anyway? Nothing. No one. He who said, "If you see Buddha on the side of the road, kill him." Cuz if Buddha ain't within you, he is nowhere.

[sam sarrha]

42. i was doing ok till the last comment.. STOP IT!.. THAT ISN'T DHARMA.. all people are a Buddha within...

Buddha means, "One who is Awake". all sentient beings are Buddha, we are awake, all we have to do is shed our ignorance and concept of static inherant self... the chain that binds us to Samsara

essentially Buddhism is a method of training the mind not to separate Subject from Object, to recognize the Emptiness of all aggregates.

just forget the killing the Buddha thing.. you don't understand how offensive that is to many many Buddhists

would you say if Christ returns Crucify him.?? it is offencive... no ifs/buts

most Buddhist wouldn't say anything, because trying to explain it would cause you more suffering than the embarrassment of continuing to prove you don't know what you are talking about every time you say it

[ZombieHorde]

43. Killing the Buddha

This quote is from zenhall.org. I know nothing about them, but here is what they say on this matter.

The ancient teachers used to say "if you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha" or "if you see the Patriarchs, kill the Patriarchs". These are frightening words but the words are said in order to help you experience the nature within yourself.

If you awaken to that you will have tremendous respect for the Buddha and Patriarchs and realize how fortunate it is that we have their teachings and you will start to feel that you also have to convey their teachings.

http://www.zenhall.org/Pages/silence.html

This is taken from Ordinary Mind Zendo, another group I know nothing about.

There's an old saying, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Who's that Buddha? What does it mean to "meet" the Buddha? What does killing the Buddha imply?

The historical Buddha, Shakyamuni, on attaining enlightenment, is said to have realized that all beings, just as they are, are Buddhas. If that's so, meeting a Buddha on the road should be a pretty commonplace event! So should being a Buddha on the road! But that's where the word "meeting" comes in. It implies encountering something or someone outside or other than oneself.

There is more, here is the link.
http://www.ordinarymind.com/koan_killing.html

[sam sarrha]

46. the Dharma teaches that we are all Buddhas, so we kill everyone we meet.. WRONG

[ZombieHorde]

47. I don't think that that is what those links are saying.

Here is more from OMZ -

"killing the Buddha" means killing or wiping out this fantasy image, and "the road" is two fold: the road outside where we look outside ourselves for the ones who have all the answers, and the inner mind road, where we set up all the "shoulds" we must obey to turn ourselves into the Buddhas we don't believe we already are, but think we must become.

It is said that Shakyamuni's last dying words to his disciples were, "Be a lamp unto yourselves." Be your own light, your own authority, your own Buddha. Kill off every image of the Buddha, see who and what you are in this very moment, see that there is no Buddha other than THIS MOMENT.

Do you think that this is bad advice? If so, which part and why?

[sam sarrha]

48. what you are defending is not a teaching of the Buddha, it is a curruption os the Dharma

we are all Buddhas, we dont kill each other.

i dont want to get into the debate that Zen is not even Buddhism. it ia a debate

Tibetanns insist on Linage, from whom the teaching came, i only attend Transmissions from Linage holders.. the teaching can be traced back to Dharma, origional teaching.. Zen is a made up system of enlightenment. it wasnt taught by the Buddha.. not that it doesnt help some..in some way. but it isnt Dharna, the Buddha didnt teach Zen, so it isnt really Buddhism..

we are all Buddhas, we do not kill each other.. what you profess isnt Buddhism.. you arent even a buddhist why are you argueing?

we have been thru this before.. i am just trying to help you out here

[ZombieHorde]

51. "what you profess isnt Buddhism"

I am not professing anything. I am just posting some other people's thoughts on the matter.

we are all Buddhas, we dont kill each other.

The saying seems to have nothing to do with killing. It seems to be about ideas.

Zen is not even Buddhism

I have heard the same about Tibetan Buddhism. I have heard people say that Tibetan Buddhism is old folk religions mixed with some Buddhist beliefs. I have also heard from Southern Baptists that Catholics, Mormons, and Pentecostals aren't really Christians. I think that the two are pretty much the same.

you arent even a buddhist

How do you know what I am?

why are you argueing?

It is my understanding that Tibetan Buddhist have a tradition of religious debate.

[Atman]

53. You know, I may disagree with you on the "isn't a religion" thing, but...

I commend your attempts to carry on this debate with sam sarrha, who obviously feels the particular teachings he received trump everything else anyone can say to him. His un-wavering assertion that "killing" in this context means actual physical violence against another human (even equating it with the crucifixion of Jesus!) is just ludicrous, and flies in the face of common sense. We are all Buddhas, but that does not mean we are all advocating killing one another. You see that, I think most people with any sort of sense would see that. In sam sahhra's case, it appears a little "education" (or actually, a lot), is indeed a dangerous thing. It did not enlighten him, it appears to have helped him close off his mind and bring about a certain hostility toward other interpretations but that which he was specifically taught.

Very un-Buddhist of him if you ask me.

.

[ZombieHorde]

54. "isn't a religion" thing

I think that it is really just a semantics thing. Buddhism is Buddhism, and whether it is classified as a religion or not doesn't change much (except for the tax exempt status many enjoy).

Very un-Buddhist of him if you ask me.

Do perfect people have any need for Buddhism?

[Peace Patriot]

55. I imagine that Buddha said it, cuz it seems so wise to me--no ikons!

And I don't think of Buddha as one person, but as several wise folks, some of them within me. I am very sorry if this offended you. I don't think the saying means to kill anyone, but rather to annihilate the idea within yourself that you are going to spot Buddha outside yourself and then run to that guru for salvation. But you said this. "...all sentient beings are Buddha, we are awake, all we have to do is shed our ignorance and concept of static inherant self... the chain that binds us to Samsara." I think of the idea of meeting Buddha on the side of the road as the ultimate chain that, as you say, "binds us to Samsara." And I think of Samsara as the illusion that we are separate beings who can find compassion, peace and enlightenment outside of whoever it is that we think we are. That chain is the fence around our ego that imagines someone reaching into the fenced area (our selves) and rescuing us from the hell of our desires.

In other words, I think that "If you meet Buddha on the side of road, kill him" means to kill the part of yourself that is LOOKING for Buddha on the side of the road. The seeking part. The part that thinks that enlightenment is in the future WHEN you meet Buddha on the side of the road.

It doesn't really matter to me who said it. But if it matters to you, then I'm sorry I mentioned it, and that it stopped you like that. It jumped out at you. Something was wrong with it. I will say this: I find the kind of self-annihilation that I think the saying suggests fairly easy to do--perhaps too easy. It is perhaps better to have a strong ego, a fighting ego, and to be more of a warrior in our realm. Maybe the saying is too pat, too smug, too easy. Maybe I need a guru. Why should I spit on people needing a guru?

[rug]

57. No wonder. They keep knocking on my door every Saturday with new pamphlets.

[ZombieHorde]

61. That is pretty funny.

If it is true, then it is even more funny.

[conscious evolution]

70. In my nieghborhood

we actually do get flyers and pamplets.
But then again,my nieghborhood is full of bhuddists,Taoist,Krishnas',pagans and wiccans.
There are at leats three Ashrams and a Krishna Temple,along with an Existintialist Congregation.The Dalai Lamas school is just a couple of miles down the road.There is even a large community owned Zen Garden behind my house.
We don't get much christian literature though.And I have never seen the Mormons or other groups doing the door to door thing. :shrug: :dilemma: :evilgrin:

[pingzing58]

73. Buddhists don't proselytize. You must be chosen to be to placed on the noble path only after asking