More Catholic Schools Closing Across US

[DeSwiss]

More Catholic Schools Closing Across US

By MATT SEDENSKY, Associated Press Writer
Sat Apr 12, 8:14 AM ET

MIAMI GARDENS, Fla. - For 46 years, crime, recessions and hurricanes proved no threat to the daily ritual of St. Monica School, where the entire blue-and-white uniformed student body gathered outside each morning to join in prayer. Come June, though, the tradition will fade away, and "amen" will close St. Monica's morning recitations for the last time. The school, a home-away-from-home for mostly minority students, will close.

As Pope Benedict XVI next week makes his first trip to the U.S. as pontiff, Catholic schools across the country, long a force in educating the underprivileged regardless of their faith, face the same fate as St. Monica. About 1,267 Catholic schools have closed since 2000 and enrollment nationwide has dropped by 382,125 students, or 14 percent, according to the National Catholic Education Association.

The problem is most apparent in inner cities, in schools like St. Monica with large concentrations of minorities whose parents often struggle to pay tuition rather than send them to failing public schools. "We lose the kids. They can't afford it. And then as the school gets smaller, you have to raise the tuition to pay the costs and it's a vicious cycle," said Sister Dale McDonald, the association's director of public policy and education research.

The pope will gather with Catholic educators during his visit, but not those who run elementary schools — the meeting is with college presidents. St. Monica has been operating on a deficit for about a decade. Enrollment went from 368 students in 2004 to 196 today. Requests for financial aid increased. The Archdiocese of Miami devoted more than $2.7 million in subsidies over the past seven years to keep it open. "There's not the numbers there to keep going," said Kristen Hughes, superintendent of schools for the archdiocese. "The economy really has had a huge impact."

McDonald notes Catholic schools have been closing since their peak in the 1960s, when there were 12,893 schools with about 5.25 million students. Today, there are 7,378 schools with 2.27 million students. The decline in enrollment is accelerating, fueling further school closures. The recent economic downturn is being blamed for some of them, but McDonald said dioceses' huge payouts to settle sex abuse lawsuits could have played a role too.

"We have no direct correlation," she said, "but as the dioceses have gone into financial debt the funds to subsidize these schools would be diminished."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080412/ap_on_re_us/catholic_school_closures">MORE

- I'm not sure whether to be gladdened by the fact that fewer kids will now be influenced further into the world's longest and on-going fairy tale; or to be saddened by the fact that more kids must now rely upon ''no child left behind'' schools for their education. Tough call.

One thing's for certain though, the loss of revenue to keep these schools open is no different than the convents that are being closed so they can be sold to pay for the for the nefarious deeds of priests who have had sex with kids. So the kids become the victims once again....
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DeSwiss


http://atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox

[SoxFan]

1. So much ignorance in a single post

[TomInTib]

3. Huh?

Maybe I am just too slow, but I didn't notice any "ignorance".

Can you help me out, here?

Thanks,
Tom

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. Well, for one thing, convents are being closed because there are

fewer nuns.

It used to be the only acceptable way for a girl to escape the expectation that she would marry early and have lots of children. I think I would have become a nun if I had been born in the Middle Ages.

Now that there are alternatives, being a nun doesn't look like such an attractive way of life.

[John Gauger]

38. You're aware that nuns were rutinely raped by priests an bishops in the Middle Ages, right?

Nuns were often visited by "incubi" in the middle of the night, and, funny enough, these spirits almost always took the form a man that had some connection to the convent or the church - somebody within walking distance of the cloister. However, they never asked any questions because it was widely known that these spirits existed and visited women in the night. A nice little scam if you can get it off the ground.

[truedelphi]

2. The catholic schools ahve long been a savior for the people caught

In the middle.

Some people must choose Between the poor and even dangerous public schools in their areas and the need to pay a huge tuition to educate their kids at a fairy-tale imposing school.

And like you mention, some of what this is about is the huge pay outs the Church must make in order to offset the lawsuits settlements to those who were molested by the clergy.


Since the hierarchy had a hand in this, it would be nice to see the Bishops and Cardinals thrown out of their palaces and surrendering their Big Screens (let them watch endless hours of baseball on small TVs, says I) rather than short the nuns and short the children.

[Ilsa]

11. Ahhhh-mmennnnn... They closed a kids' camp in the Texas

Hill Country a few years ago because it was short of funds and lots of kids were wanting to go. And they wonder why donations and tithes might be running thin? It certainly is true in my friend's church in the San Diego diocese.

[PassingFair]

31. Then why doesn't the catholic church just send money and people

....into the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM?

If they really cared....

:eyes:

[TomInTib]

4. I must have missed something.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=168673&mesg_id=168676

Interesting post, though.

KnR

[mitchtv]

5. I am a total apostate, but

I sure am glad I went to Catholic school. I learned to think for myself. (And also learned that America was discovered by St Brendan the Navigator in leather boats.) When I was expelled in Senior year, I never had to open a book in Public school, I had covered it all years before in parochial school. The church history was easy credit

[gateley]

6. I'm grateful I was educated

in Catholic schools. You learned whether you wanted to or not (and I put up a big fight).

We also learned discipline and respect - something so many kids don't seem to have these days (reading about the rise in students attacking teachers.)

There aren't too many nuns left these days.

[Iggo]

7. I went to Catholic school for 1st and 2nd grade.

This was in the mid-60's. I got out before I was completely warped, but I got a great education. When I got to public school in 3rd grade, I was light-years ahead of the rest of the kids my age. I'm glad my indoctrination was derailed before it did any real damage, but I'm forever grateful for the headstart I got in Catholic school.

[Demeter]

8. I Went One Year to a Catholic High School

1968, in Detroit, because the public schools were dangerous and useless, and my parents did not want to send me to the "magnet" school in the heart of the riot-torn city. We moved out of state the next year.

The school closed before my class would have graduated, due to the hemorrhaging loss of nuns thanks to the church reforms of the time (1968). No cheap labor, no staff, no school.

It was no great loss. Between the mindless religion classes, the deceitful courses (ever try to teach world history WITHOUT mentioning Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation?), and the lack of input from the male half of the population (and I don't mean sex--I mean how their brains work, or don't), the weakness in math and science, and the futility of it all, I was happier in my new suburban enclave school, with AP math and science courses.

But it would have been better for the city to have an alternative to the violent seething public high schools....Detroit is now less than half the city it was when I lived there, and not just in population.

[TheDebbieDee]

9. I never hear anybody talk about what may have

been going on for decades, centuries with the Catholic Church and the issue of child molestation in countries that are not as "civilized" as we are.

What about in 1905 when Timmy and all his classmates in Timbuktu who got tired of being diddled by Father Flanagan? Who did they complain to, if anyone?

And what happened to Timmy and his classmates? Were they bought off by the Catholic Church? Or was Timmy and his family ex-communicated from the church and driven out of their village for being heretics!

If you ask me, for centuries the Church has been using education s a way to maintain access to children for employees, many of whom are predisposed to diddling kids!

Millions of young people over the course of several hundred years have been molested and the Catholic Church protected the molesters, not the young people. Amazing!

[ironrooster]

12. what a stupid comment -

The vast majority of children who went through Catholic schools got a good education and experienced no
"diddling" as you call it.

I know that some did however, and there is no excuse for that - but changes have been put in place to monitor any potential child
endangerment.

But hey, I guess anti-Catholicism is the new black.

[TheDebbieDee]

14. A typical, knee-jerk reaction from an over-sensitive defender

of Catholicism.

Point me to any links that SCLC has spent millions to buy the victim's silence, or used resources to protect their ministers from prosecution on child molestation charges, then we can talk about my "Anti-Catholicism".

Also, I never said a damn thing in my post about Catholic School educations being sub-par. I only stated that the efforts to educate maintains access to these victims

Also, you stated, "changes have been put in place to monitor any potential child endangerment," What changes are these and who will be doing the monitoring? Or is this just another case of "the foxes guarding the hen house"?

And I still stand by my speculation that this molestation was probably much more rampant in third-world countries than in the west.

[Raejeanowl]

23. Your Were A Little Stronger Than "Maintains Access"

You implied that the Church's reason for getting into the education business in the first place was to secure a supply of victims for the offenders.

[mitchtv]

13. I wasn't molested, and I intend to sue!

What was wrong with me? I was cute, willing(gay), and we had a gay priest, plus I was an altar boy.

[TheDebbieDee]

15. Poor baby.....I'm sending you a hug!

:hug:

On the serious side, it's good that no adult made sexual advances to you. It doesn't mean you weren't good-looking, it means you spent time with well adjusted adults!

[PassingFair]

32. You must be onto something.

Guess the ones who were/are molested are really
ASKING FOR IT.

:sarcasm:

[Clovis Sangrail]

10. I haven't set foot in a church in years

but I went to Catholic elementary and high schools.
Hated it at the the time... but my education was head and shoulders above what kids were getting from LA Unified.

I have no idea if Miami public schools are any better than LA's.

[katherine20]

16. A Good Product

Well, say what you want about Catholic schools, but in the final analysis, their graduates are less racist, less homophobic and more likely to vote Democratic than government school graduates. It is an open discussion as to what causes these results, but the results have been verified time and time again by sociological research. (National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago, etc)

[Clovis Sangrail]

19. oh I agree... a great education

but, for me at least, that might have something to do with missing my school's pedophile.

Had I been a year earlier I might not have appreciated my 'education' so much.

[knitter4democracy]

17. I taught in Catholic schools before kids.

The constant money/enrollment pressures are really hard on everyone. Principals freak out over the least little thing, worried about any and all possible negative word-of-mouth that might affect fundraising and enrollment. When enrollment dropped at the first school I taught at, I was let go (last hired, first fired). At the second school, they were still dealing with the fallout of the merger--a boys school had been forced by the bishop to merge with a girls school, and it was still very much a part of the culture at the school, even though the merger had happened ten years before I got there.

I saw amazing things in the schools I taught in. After growing up a public school kid and getting all of my college training in public schools, I was amazed at what we could get the kids to do at the Catholic schools I taught in. We took kids from the projects, from the worst and poorest neighborhoods in the city, from every ethnic group on the east side of Cleveland, and from every socioeconomic level, mixed them all up, taught them excellence, and got them into good colleges. I think a lot of that was a culture of excellence, smaller schools, committed staff and administration and parents, and the uniforms.

[truedelphi]

18. I was a product of Catholic grammar schools.

Whenever anyone says you need a small classroom size to make a difference - I just am amazed. The nuns gave us an excellent education, and they taught around 55 kids at a time.

The HS I attended only had about 35 to forty kids in a classroom.

The discipline made a lot of the difference. That sense of sitting at your desk quietly and doing your work is largely absent from the public school experience.

[knitter4democracy]

20. Oh no, I often saw high school students have to work quietly.

It was one of the tools in the toolbox (some kids really need that quiet work time and do better with it) that I used in student teaching at the public school I trained in.

I do think that inner discipline is harder to find. I know that my seven year old has problems with that but that my five year old has an easier time working on something quietly for a long time. He's more of an introvert naturally and does better with quiet time to himself than my extroverted daughter does.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. Discipline on both the parts of the student and the administration

and teachers, though.

I remember 40 person classes in elementary, too. Didn't seem strange to us. But every one of us was an individual to the teachers and administration at the school. They knew us, they knew our siblings, they knew our parents. And yes, good behavior was required.

Of course, they have the ultimate tool for that, one that's much harder to use in a public school: expulsion.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. It definitely could be a bit of a mixed bag, but

overall, my experience (12 years) was a good one. Certainly better than I'd likely have done in the public schools.

Some of the teachers were not at all qualified. But many - most even - were dedicated, willing to work for less because they believed in the schools. The smaller size, the amount of individual attention - and the connection not just to individual students, but to the students' families, made for an effective environment in which kids could thrive.

Whether I was stuck with a particularly inadequate teacher from one year to the next, or a marvelous one, the bottom line was that I was treated as an individual, and I was *expected* to do very well. Good enough was never the mark - excellence was.

[Raejeanowl]

21. I Attended A Parochial School For Seven Years

The tuition in the 60s was $40 per semester. It is now $3,500 per year.

Lay teachers were few, and there were many opportunities for me to be alone with members of the clergy. It never happened.

I then transferred for eighth grade to a historically black high school that had just re-opened as a "junior high" school, in it's very first year of integration.

One of it's first white female students, it was only then that I was molested or assaulted, multiple times daily, by the black male students, and to a lesser degree, by the black females.

The county school system and the juvenile court (I became truant as a result of what I was attempting to avoid) placed me a private school, where I eventually completed successfully.

[and-justice-for-all]

22. Close them all...

Even those ridiculous so-called 'universities'..

[Dorian Gray]

41. I went to a Catholic University...

Boston College. I never realized that B.C, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Villanova, and many others fell under the "ridiculous so-called 'universities'" moniker.

[shrike]

24. Uh, there was religion before Catholicism.

Ever heard of Judaism?

But anyway, getting back to the post, my siblings attended a Catholic high school (more money by the time they got old enough.) Catholic Caucasian students were actually in the minority. Large numbers of Arab students attended; some were Christian, many were not. The African-American population was also significant.

I got the impression the parents were so happy to have a decent school (public schools were pretty bad) for their kids to attend, they didn't mind forking out the dough. The religion requirements were pretty minor; mass once a week. Most non-Christian parents didn't have a problem with that requirement: "hey, I'm paying all this money for you to attend, you'd better get your ass in that pew."

There's a Catholic college in my area, but you'd never know it other than crosses on the wall and a few clerics on staff. You could go the whole four years and have little direct contact with the Catholic faith. The school is the only four-year institution in the area that accepts GED students into baccalaureate programs. They've got a VERY large minority population and also older, non-traditional students. I casually remarked to one of the professors that certain students look like gang members. He said, "That's because they are. Or were."

[knitter4democracy]

26. We never had it more than once a month.

At the girls school where I taught for two years, we didn't have our own priest, so we only had Mass once a month. The religion teachers were very, very liberal, too, as were the nuns. Good school. :)

[JerseygirlCT]

29. Oh man, they dragged us in all the time to "fill out" the space at

funerals!

Since our elementary was attached to the church, we donned our beanies often and off we marched, lol!

[RebelOne]

25. My daughter teaches in Miami Gardens,

but she is a teacher at a charter school.

[mac2]

35. Every student should be able to attend a charter school.

Why those "special schools" anyway?

[PassingFair]

33. These threads are always filled with posts from people who went to parochial schools...

talking about how well educated they were.

I went to public schools in DETROIT, and I will
put my education up against ANY parochial school
education.

The difference is in the PARENTING.

My parents had high expectations.
My teachers had high expectations of me as well.

[mac2]

34. I went to university with them and they weren't that well

prepared or more impressive. They do seem rather arrogant. They believe all the hype. They don't take the same tests except for college entrance. I'd like to see their SATs, etc. compared. Where they do test in similar communities, etc. there is no difference.

I had a friend announce to me that she was well educated since she went to Catholic school not those stupid public schools. I told her I was insulted and had a very good public education thank you very much. My school ranked high and I went to good university (only top students accepted). In my city the state university was the best one.

I've seen the Catholic schools in the inner city close while the church builds new churches and schools in rich suburbs. They have bought up community hospitals (lots of tax free profits there) all over the country.

They also losing members. If it weren't for our Faith Based Funding (billions of our tax dollars) I would think more of them would be closing (sex scandals, old fashioned ideas, etc.).

We fund the training of teachers, scholarships, education programs, and busing. Religious and private schools suck off our public tax system leaving less for the public schools, hospitals, etc. The Bush Faith Based Charity Funding is nothing but religious cronyism for votes. It silences them. They are welfare organizations.

Yes...you who went to private and religious schools we aren't going to be insulted any longer. The public system is a good one if you apply yourself and your parents are there for you to thrive.

[pegleg]

36. You seem to forget that the people who send their kids to parochial

schools pay taxes too and many are tired of the crappy education that some public schools provide. Public schools definitely need the competition.

[cosmik debris]

37. What a silly notion!

Competition in education?

Competition works in a free market. The fact that education is subsidized by several layers of government proves that it is not a free market.

The concept of competition in education is a right wing nut case argument intended to shift tax dollars to private schools so rich kids can get welfare. I'm really surprised to see that argument on a liberal message board.

[John Gauger]

39. The same thing about vouchers.

Three grand a year is not enough to send a kid to private school and all the legislators know it, being wealthy enough to send their kids to private schools themselves. The only people getting vouchers are those already sending their kids to private school. It's basically a three-thousand-dollar handout to the wealthy. This of course is all part of an attempt to further starve public schools of money and eventually eliminate them entirely, as they have been trying to do since Bill Bennet's days. But the money has to go somewhere, so why not give it away to the rich?

[pegleg]

43. You are absolutely right on that one, I feel, because schools need to to move away from being

totally funded locally by property taxes, and to being funded primarily by federal dollars. That would insure in theory that all children have the same chance at a quality education. There should be no disparity when it comes to our children.

[cosmik debris]

46. About 46 percent of public spending on

elementary and secondary schools is derived from local government.

NOT as you say "totally funded locally by property taxes".

Perhaps you should understand the problem before you pontificate.

[pegleg]

47. Where I live 76% of property tax dollar goes to education.

That varies widely across the country and needs to be equalized in order to provide a quality education for all children. This is especially important when real estate prices are are dropping.
So you are saying that children don't all deserve a quality education? I do.

[cosmik debris]

49. Wow! You sure changed the subject fast!

You were talking about how much of the education budget comes from local taxes.

And you were dead wrong about that.

Over 50% of the money spent by your local school district comes from the federal government.

So now you want to confuse the issue by talking about how much of your taxes go to education.

Did you think I would be confused by your "bait and switch"?

Or did you not even notice the difference? I'd hate to think you couldn't tell the difference between your own tax bill and the budget of the local school district. That would be sad.

[pegleg]

52. Not quite sure where you got your information at but ...

The Federal Role in Education

Education is primarily a State and local responsibility in the United States. It is States and communities, as well as public and private organizations of all kinds, that establish schools and colleges, develop curricula, and determine requirements for enrollment and graduation. The structure of education finance in America reflects this predominant State and local role. Of an estimated $1 trillion being spent nationwide on education at all levels for school year 2007-2008, a substantial majority will come from State, local, and private sources. This is especially true at the elementary and secondary level, where just over 91 percent of the funds will come from non-Federal sources.

http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html

I should have said "almost totally funded" by property taxes.

[cosmik debris]

53. Would you care to change the subject again?

About 46 percent of public spending on elementary and secondary schools is derived from local government budgets
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/backgrounders/school_funding.html


In 2004-5, the funding distribution among federal, state, and local sources was 9 percent, 48 percent, and 43 percent, respectively
http://www.hoover.org/research/factsonpolicy/facts/4249156.html

So, once again you are wrong. The schools are NOT "almost totally funded by property taxes".

In fact, only 43-48% comes from local property taxes. Less than half is NOT "almost totally funded".

Would you care to change the subject again?

Edit: Just to save you the trouble, where I said: "Over 50% of the money spent by your local school district comes from the federal government." I should have said "state and federal government."

Now, go ahead and change the subject again.

[pegleg]

55. Where pray tell do you think that 48% and 43% respectively come from?

Depending on where you live it comes mainly from property taxes.

[cosmik debris]

56. I'll spell it out since the numbers are kinda tough for you

9% from the federal government.

48% from the state government.

43% from local government.

There is no way you can spin 43% as "totally" or even "almost totally". In fact, 43% is actually less than half. I'm not kidding, it really is less than half. Look it up if you don't believe me.

But you are doing a pretty good job of trying to distract from your error. Keep trying. :)

[pegleg]

57. When you add 48% and 43%, you get 91%. The bulk of that 91%

is from PROPERTY TAXES. Because there is such an inequity in property tax revenues from district to district, some schools are taking in more than others, even with attempts in equalize. Add to that the unfunded mandate requirements of NCLB, and some schools are overwhelmed. So here you have schools competing for tax dollars. Some parents are choose to yank their children out of this mess we call a public school system and send them to private schools. Herein lies the competition for students. My point is: that we do away with this sort of funding and totally fund all public schools through the federal government. An elementary school student in , say , New Hampshire would get the same education as one in Mississippi. Good Night.

[cosmik debris]

58. 48% from the state government does NOT

come from property taxes. States do not collect property taxes. State taxes are not local taxes.

Property Taxes
Taxes on land and the buildings on it are the biggest source of revenue for local governments. They are not imposed by states but by the tens of thousands of cities, townships, counties, school districts and other assessing jurisdictions.
http://retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

Let's recap. State taxes are not local taxes and they are not property taxes. There is no way you can spin a state sales tax or state income tax as a local property tax. That just doesn't work.

You do see that don't you?

[uberllama42]

54. Impressive.

You made a sweeping claim, which cosmik disproved with a numerical fact. Rather than admitting that you were wrong, you responded with a tangentially related number which has no bearing on the initial, false point that you made. I wish my professors would let me get away with that kind of thing in class. Unfortunately they usually don't let me dodge responsibility like that.

Oops. Now you're probably going to accuse my of thinking college students don't deserve a quality education.

[pegleg]

40. And it is simply because of your opinion

that they do need some competition. In many parts of the country (certainly not all)public schools have let the students and taxpayers down, i.e. graduating students who can't read a word. It's not a right wing opinion, it's the opinion of a parent and teacher who want his kids to be prepared for life. Until the public schools can be totally directed toward the goal of learning, I'll keep my opinions thank you.

[cosmik debris]

45. Competition only works in a free market

and your opinion won't change that.

You may parrot the right wing talking points until you are blue in the face, but competition only works in a free market.

I'm not defending public schools, I'm pointing out the absurdity of your "competition" metaphor.

That is the framing of the right wing nuts who want vouchers so that rich kids can get welfare. That's all it is. It has no basis in logic and no foundation in fiscal responsibility.

Competition is the myth created by the right wing to induce suckers into believing that private school vouchers are the key to improving our schools.

Bottom line:

1. You can't have competition without a free market.

2. There is no free market.

3. Therefore competition is not possible.

You will feel a lot better when you stop allowing the right wingers to do your thinking for you.

[pegleg]

48. If you can obtain an equal, stable source of funding then students

could be given a quality education no matter where they live.

[pegleg]

50. You are not living in the real world. Many educators in this country are having to compete for

funding and having to make serious cuts in programs, while schools in higher income areas are able to provide exceptional facilities and essentials.

[cosmik debris]

51. You're Changing the subject again

You started talking about schools competing for students. Now you want to talk about teachers competing with each other for funding.

You are just making this up as you go along aren't you?

[JerseygirlCT]

44. Not quite right

Parochial schools do not suck off the public tax system. Those parents, like every one else, pays toward the public system. Perhaps it leaves some of the more dedicated parents less involved in the public schools - that's a possibility.

And while I am a strong proponent of public schools, the sad fact is that they are NOT always as good as parochial schools. Those in my town years ago most certainly were not. Fortunately, tuition at my parochial schools was still quite affordable in those days. We saw the comparisons when it came time for college admissions: kids from our school inevitably did better than the kids in the public HS.

Now, it's possible that had the parents who cared enough about education to send their kids to the parochial school been very involved and demanding of the public schools - it's possible in that situation that over time the public schools would have improved. The trick there is that they don't improve quickly, and if you're saddled with a less than terrific school system, chances are good you won't improve it in enough time to for your kids to see the benefits. A problem, to be sure.

Our public school funding is part of the problem as well. Well-off towns tend to have better schools. More involved parents, but also bigger funds to draw from come budget time. The property taxes are higher, etc. I think schools should have a very large state funding component. But the difficulties go much deeper. And yes, parental involvement is absolutely critical.

The problem with your post is the broad brush you took out. Are all parochial schools better than all public schools? Not at all - that would be absurd. But in many cases, they are. In some cases, they are not.

[Dorian Gray]

42. I agree with you.....

the difference is the PARENTING. And the expectations. You can get a great education almost anywhere if you have good parenting and high expectations. Including public school. (I attended public schools until college, and my education was better than that of my friends who went to the catholic high school or grammar schools in our town.)