Can drugs be spititual?

[ZombieHorde]

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. You need another category:

"I don't remember."

[ZombieHorde]

2. Awesome!

[Cant trust em]

5. LOL.

Nice work.

:rofl:

[Qutzupalotl]

3. Entheogens are

by definition, FWTW.

[ZombieHorde]

6. What is FWTW?

[Qutzupalotl]

7. For what that's worth.

By that I mean, entheogens are spiritual if you accept that definition and concept. (I do.)

[eShirl]

9. like peyote for the Native American Church

upheld as an essential part of their religion by the U. S. Supreme Court

[evlbstrd]

4. I'm feeling the spitit right now.

I need a Kleenex.

[bananas]

18. Some drugs make it hard to spit.

[evlbstrd]

19. So very true.

That's why there's orange juice.

[tekisui]

8. Absolutely.

Usually if someone has a foundation, or spiritual vocabulary, then drugs open doors that one never could have known existed. Into a vastness interior.

The most spiritual experiences I have ever had were on drugs.

[ironbark]

10. 'The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross'

Proposes that the Biblical 'Tree of Knowledge' was Amanita muscaria-



http://johnallegro.org/main/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=15&MMN_position=16:4

http://johnallegro.org/Allegro-SundayMirror.htm


http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Mushroom-Cross-Christianity-Fertility/dp/0340128755

http://meta-religion.com/New_religious_groups/Groups/Christian/sacred_mushroom.htm

[ironbark]

13. Lest it be misunderstood as ‘advocacy’ of drugs

I would hasten to add that the ‘Sacred Mushroom and the Cross” is not an account of drug induced ‘spiritual experience’.
It is twenty years since I read the tome but (paraphrasing from memory) it proposes that humanity once existed in a blissful animal state of unconsciousness and unawareness (‘In Eden’). Warned by God of the “Good and Evil’ risks of eating from the Tree of Knowledge humanity took a bite and became conscious/self aware (“They knew their nakedness and were ashamed”)
From memory, the Author claims that the oldest fresco’s of the Garden of Eden depict a mushroom not a tree.

(As a complete aside…An Aboriginal Elder once posed the deep theological question- “How come that Adam and Eve ate the apple instead of the snake?...You get a much better meal out of a snake and it would have avoided a whole lot of trouble! ;-)

For contemporary advocacy of drugs evoking ‘spiritual experience’ one might look to
the works of Carlos Castaneda .
Though I have read some fine debunking that asserts he engaged in both academic and literary fraud…..and inadvertently created a New Age/druggie tourist industry from which the Pueblo Indians profited.
It is also suggested that Castaneda saw himself as engaged in an ideological/spiritual war with Dr Tim Leary. One of the ‘Witches’ in Castaneda’s books was ‘La Catalina’…..La Catalina is the Hotel Leary set himself up in after getting the boot from Harvard.
Castaneda was inspired/influenced by The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross’


http://www.umsl.edu/~thomaskp/cast.htm

http://www.geocities.com/the_wanderling/catalina.html

[conscious evolution]

11. Yes and no

Some are.
some are not.

Some will take you to heaven.
Some will take you to hell.

[ironbark]

14. Nope….it’s a ‘crap shoot’…’Russian Roulette’.

It has far less to do with the drug chemistry than individual body chemistry.

There are some folk who can snort, shoot and smoke anything for decades and still have enough brain cells to calculate their ‘Gimme Shelter’ royalties.

There are also ‘One bong wonders’ who wake up in the Psych Ward and spend decades dealing with drug induced schizophrenia.

The former are hailed, lauded and idolized in media and popular culture the latter (far more heroic/spiritual in their battle to recover) are hidden in Hospitals, Rehabs or live on the street.

Neither Heaven nor Hell will be found in drugs….only the illusion of both.

[Gato Moteado]

31. but aren't heaven and hell just illusions?

do you really believe there's a labyrinth of fire where some douchebag with horns and a pointy tail and a pitchfork watches you burn and suffer for eternity?

[uberllama42]

12. What do you mean by "spiritual"?

I'm sure that question seems tired by now, but the fact is that the term "spiritual" is nebulous and needs to be adequately defined before the question can be properly answered.

[ironbark]

15. Definition of ‘Spiritual’ or ‘Spirituality’

Best I’ve got is as follows
(It’s to all, no individual, and pray excuse the passion)-

Spirituality has got nothing- absofuckinglutely >NOTHING< to do with any feeling, experience, vision, dream or bliss resulting from or associated with taking drugs.

Spirituality is found in the >DEEDS< of family, friends, church, medical and welfare staff who struggle with love’n compassion (sometimes ‘tough love’) to deal with the theft, aggression, violence, car accidents, injuries and psychosis that are all to often manifest by the user or addict or teenage experimenter..
Spirituality is cleaning up their vomit and wiping their arse when they can’t.
Spirituality is the endless endless hours devoted to counselling and care trying to steer them away from self harm or suicide.
Spirituality is what binds and still permits care and support when all familial/family bonds of affection have been burnt by the addict who would “Steal Opium Suppositories from his Grandmothers arse”.

Spirituality is the daily battle for survival of beautiful beautiful bright’n’ funny young adults who flip out into drug induced psychosis and spend the rest of their days struggling against suicidal ideation.

Spirituality is found in the voluntary work of those thousands of church/religious groups who daily deal with the homelessness, poverty and hopelessness that result from drug addiction.


But elsewhere we hear “There is no good coming from religion” and ‘Spirituality’ can be found in drugs.

81% think drugs can be spiritual?- FUCKINGINSANE!

[uberllama42]

16. It sounds like you are using "spirituality" to mean "compassion"

I've never heard anyone use that definition. I asked my question because in my experience many people use different meanings for the word "spiritual," so defining the term is always a prerequisite to avoid talking past each other.

Both of my parents are atheists, but consider themselves "spiritual" people. My father is an avid hunter who tries to commune with nature as an escape. My mother is interested in a very feminist take on Wicca, though she scoffs at the superstition of it. Sam Harris, a strident atheist, has yet a third definition based on his neurological observations of a school of Buddhist meditation. The term is a semantic mirror- it means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

Also, you are taking a very binary view of drug use. There is a big difference between a rock-bottom-desperate H junkie and a group of Navajo drinking peyote tea in a religious ceremony. I have never used any drug recreationally, but I can understand that the experiences of non-medical drug use might be valuable on a personal level or in certain religious practices. In a way, your stance on drugs is similar to the take on religion you impute to other people here- you seem to describe drugs as an unmitigated evil that does nothing but destroy. Not even Dawkins's stance on religion is that harsh.

[ironbark]

17. No on all counts

No....I am not "using "spirituality" to mean "compassion"'
I am seperating out drug induced "feeling/experience" from "Spiritual/deed" (of which showing compassion would be 'one' example.

No I am not "taking a very binary view of drug use".
That people have fun, see shit, laugh till they cry (whatever) are simply egnored/omitted because it has no relivence/connection to the proisition of drug induced spiritual experience.
(I will return to the indigenous religion/drug issue later)

In a way, your stance on drugs is similar to the take on religion you impute to other people here"

Disingenious misrepresentative extrapolatimg bullshit.

I have not said or suggested "No good ever came of drug use" (recreational or religious)

[kwassa]

20. Spiritual is a state of feeling, not a state of doing.

The doing may bring about the state of feeling, but it is not the doing itself.

[Meshuga]

22. I agree with you there, kwassa n/t

[ironbark]

23. I reject that proposition utterly and entirely.

Spiritual concerns itself with matters of the spirit (human or Divine...I'm not fussed)
“Spirituality may involve perceiving or wishing to perceive life as more important ("higher"), more complex or more integrated with one's world view; as contrasted with the merely sensual. Many spiritual traditions, accordingly, share a common spiritual theme: the "path", "work", practice, or tradition of perceiving and internalizing one's "true" nature and relationship to the rest of existence (God, creation of the universe, or life), and of becoming free of the lesser egoic self (or ego) in favor of being more fully one's "true" "Self".. “.

It is extremely common for people to be thinking and feeling all kinds of wonderful, magical, blissful things and having intense inner experiences without any of it translating into action/doing for others. Such ‘feeling’ (no matter how intense) is usualy no more than spiritual masturbation…” lesser egoic self satisfaction”

It is also possible (though often rarer) for people to be feeling run down, depressed, tired, confused and yet still display a generosity of spirit in performing service to others >even when< it does not make them feel any better. Sometimes they ‘feel’ worse and will still return to serve, give aid and comfort, >do< for others day in day out for years.

The individual who takes up the “spiritual theme: the "path", "work", practice,” is engaged in >action<….service to and cooperation with others. That action may be “learning to fight gracefully” in a relationship (despite the negative feeling) or care for a terminally ill person that they don’t really care/feel for.

>Doing something< for someone you love/feel deeply about is easy and can give you/both a great glowing feeling.

But when love (“the preparedness to do for others”) is extended to the stranger or the enemy then a Spiritual act has been undertaken (often in spite of neutral or negative feeling and for no positive feeling gain).

They speak of marriage as a ‘spiritual union’ because of the demands that can arise...a child may die or even be accidentally killed by a parent…all positive ‘feeling’ can go right out the window…and yet there can remain a preparedness to do for each other or even just the preparedness of ‘one’ to do for the other…that’s spiritual…that’s spirituality- “becoming free of the lesser egoic self”

Incredibly potent, powerful, vivid, lucid >feelings< of ecstasy, joy, bliss, confidence, enlightenment and wonderment can and do spring from drug use. These experiences usually demand nothing from us and offer nothing to others (other than ripping yarns and entertainment).

Drugs and the feelings they evoke can be compared to the orgasm resulting from masturbation…it might be a mind blowing potent feeling and experience but it doesn’t change you, gives nothing to others and brings nothing into the world.

The orgasm/feeling from a relationship ten years in may be far less potent satisfying yet produce a child and demand personal growth and giving that is often hard and unpleasant.
The latter disciplined >doing< is a spiritual test/adventure…..the former is just a wank …no matter how good it feels.

[kwassa]

24. Reject whatever you like.

Spiritual concerns itself with matters of the spirit (human or Divine...I'm not fussed)
“Spirituality may involve perceiving or wishing to perceive life as more important ("higher"), more complex or more integrated with one's world view; as contrasted with the merely sensual. Many spiritual traditions, accordingly, share a common spiritual theme: the "path", "work", practice, or tradition of perceiving and internalizing one's "true" nature and relationship to the rest of existence (God, creation of the universe, or life), and of becoming free of the lesser egoic self (or ego) in favor of being more fully one's "true" "Self".. “.

I totally agree with this. It is the concept of spiritual practice, a series of actions that aid to bring about a spiritual state within oneself, such as meditation, prayer, or other practices.

It is extremely common for people to be thinking and feeling all kinds of wonderful, magical, blissful things and having intense inner experiences without any of it translating into action/doing for others. Such ‘feeling’ (no matter how intense) is usualy no more than spiritual masturbation…” lesser egoic self satisfaction”

I totally disagree with this. There are many spiritual traditions where no such action is required or taken, and you apparently reject those. I refer to various Christian or Buddhist monastic traditions. The spiritual state is the sense of unity with the divine, or the universe, or whatever one concieves the greater reality to be. Action may certainly result from that sense, but it is not the spiritual sense itself.

In my opinion, you seem to be talking about actions as a reflection of one's faith, as in "faith without works is dead".

[ironbark]

27. Ok I will........with good cause.

“ It is the concept of spiritual practice, a series of actions that aid to bring about a spiritual state within oneself, such as meditation, prayer, or other practices.”


A “series of >actions<” “meditation, prayer, or other >practices<” “the "path", "work"…disciplined >doing<.“to bring about a spiritual state within oneself”?... if that ‘spiritual state’ is the love, strength, peace, courage and sense of justice externalised in action in the world then it is indeed spiritual.

But if it is and remains a feeling “within oneself” it is just a head wank.

“I refer to various Christian or Buddhist monastic traditions.”

Then please read M Scott Peck on the incredibly hard doing work (physical, social and psychological) that is required to create and maintain such true communities. They are not and never were havens of blissed out inner peace/feelings and social harmony…there was always tension and strife that needed to be resolved. I referred to the spiritual doing/ego denial and self sacrifice required in a marriage…you are now evoking the circumstances in which the marriage is to 2-3 hundred people. The self sacrificing >doing< demand is phenomenal…up to and including the denial of individual voice (vow of silence)…it wasn’t just a contemplative device…it was people prepared to say nothing (for decades) to reduce and avoid contention. >That’s ego/self negation doing<.

Having evoked the great religious monastic traditions I invite you to now consider the poll question and imagine drugs introduced into a monastery? Hmmmm? ;-)

Think there would be more good ‘feeling’ “spiritual state within oneself” and the community?

Please…look back to the 60’s commune movement…can you find any communes that have survived without constant turnover of members? Or look to the philosophical a left political communes established around the world since the enlightenment…can you find >one< that has survived? They all went in with great glowing feelings and philosophies of peace love’n’brotherhood and they all died in the arse within decades. None could >do< the great self sacrificing hard work of community building displayed by the major living faiths.

“The spiritual state is the sense of unity with the divine, or the universe, or whatever one conceives the greater reality to be. Action may certainly result from that sense, but it is not the spiritual sense itself.”

That ‘sense” is variously described- enlightenment, satori , the mystic communal and is entirely subjective. From the outside we have no way of telling what (if anything) the individual is experiencing. I am not denying that “Action may certainly result from that sense” I am suggesting that the “action” can occur without that sense and that the action is the spiritual component. And further that claiming or genuinely feeling that sense without it being reflected in the realm of deeds is useless to the individual and the world.

The most common core thread of the worlds major living faiths is the Golden Rule…variously restated- >DO< unto others as you would have them >DO< unto you. It does not require that you ‘feel’ anything first and it does often require that you take action on behalf of another despite the absence of feeling or in the face of negative feeling.

“In my opinion, you seem to be talking about actions as a reflection of one's faith, as in "faith without works is dead".

Better- “Spiritual feeling/sense without works is dead and deceiving”
One may have no faith no feeling no mystic communal no enlightenment and still say “I hate you and all your fucking tribe but I’m still going to risk my life and jump in the river to save you”

“By their fruits shall ye know them”

[kwassa]

29. Well, we will never agree

I've never heard this definition of the word spiritual, though the word has been stretched to mean all kinds of things yours is stretched further than I've ever heard.


spir·it·u·al Audio Help /ˈspɪrɪtʃuəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.
2. of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.
3. closely akin in interests, attitude, outlook, etc.: the professor's spiritual heir in linguistics.
4. of or pertaining to spirits or to spiritualists; supernatural or spiritualistic.
5. characterized by or suggesting predominance of the spirit; ethereal or delicately refined: She is more of a spiritual type than her rowdy brother.
6. of or pertaining to the spirit as the seat of the moral or religious nature.
7. of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.
8. of or belonging to the church; ecclesiastical: lords spiritual and temporal.
9. of or relating to the mind or intellect.
–noun
10. a spiritual or religious song: authentic folk spirituals.
11. spirituals, affairs of the church.
12. a spiritual thing or matter.

from religious tolerance.org, always a great site:

Spirituality: This term is defined quite differently by monotheists, polytheists, humanists, followers of new age, Native Americans, etc. A common meaning is "devotion to metaphysical matters, as opposed to worldly things." Another is "Activities which renew, lift up, comfort, heal and inspire both ourselves and those with whom we interact."

here is wikipedia:

Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit, a concept closely tied to religious belief and faith, a transcendent reality, and one or more deities. Spiritual matters are thus those matters regarding humankind's ultimate nature and purpose, not only as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is perceived to be beyond both time and the material world.

As such, the spiritual is traditionally contrasted with the material, the temporal and the worldly. A perceived sense of connection forms a central defining characteristic of spirituality — connection to a metaphysical reality greater than oneself, which may include an emotional experience of religious awe and reverence, or such states as satori or Nirvana. Equally importantly, spirituality relates to matters of sanity and of psychological health. Spirituality is the personal, subjective dimension of religion, particularly that which pertains to liberation or salvation (see also mysticism)

Spirituality may involve perceiving or wishing to perceive life as more important ("higher"), more complex or more integrated with one's world view; as contrasted with the merely sensual.

Many spiritual traditions, accordingly, share a common spiritual theme: the "path", "work", practice, or tradition of perceiving and internalizing one's "true" nature and relationship to the rest of existence (God, creation of the universe, or life), and of becoming free of the lesser egoic self (or ego) in favor of being more fully one's "true" "Self".

[ironbark]

30. I don’t assume there will never be agreement

But work towards mutual understanding at least

I am not at all surprised that you “never heard this definition of the word spiritual”… it goes against the entire contemporary Western spiritual/cultural grain- Which, from ClapyHappy Pentecostalism to the New Age to “If it feels good do it” drug spirituality of retro Hippies all focus on feeling/inner experience.

The world is drowning in books devoted to the ‘spiritual inner journey/experience” in comparison to the few slim tomes that focus on the Spiritual in action, justice and the common good.
This is a huge pendulum swing from earlier times and often we cannot even hear/interpret what was being thought/said because it is strange to us.

The “Pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration of Independence had (as far as I can ascertain) very little to do with any individual ‘inner feeling’ and everything to do with the “common wheel”- the collective good. Jefferson would, I believe, be as uncomprehending of the prevailing individualistic drug induced feeling/ spirituality as you are of spirituality in action/deed for the common good.

The contemporary definitions only reflect this with scant attention to what was once commonly held and understood- “Another is "Activities which renew, lift up, comfort, heal and inspire both ourselves and those with whom we interact."
It has always been there it is just currently, broadly, ignored.

Mother Teresa provides a classic example of what I am trying to convey. A woman who had that called/mystic communal feeling early on and it faded/vanished. She set about her work/deeds and in latter life, even though hailed as a saint, reported an ongoing crisis of faith and absence of spiritual ‘feeling’…..and yet she continued to do profound spiritual work.

If there is >anything< to be had from the proposition of spiritual outcome from drug taking then lets see its application and worldly manifestation. At best the is IMO some drug induced or inspired Art and Music….but most of it is crap that wont be preserved beyond the next ten years let alone the next hundred.

[ZombieHorde]

25. "81% think drugs can be spiritual?- FUCKINGINSANE! "

Simple yes/no question.

Were the Native Americans who used drugs for their spirituality FUCKINGINSANE?

[TechBear_Seattle]

21. Poorly worded question. A much better one would be

"Can drugs create the sensation of what might be interpreted as a spiritual experience?"

The answer to that is: Most definitely, yes.

[ZombieHorde]

26. That would be the third option.

[ironbark]

28. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was an Ether sniffer

On a number of occasions while under the influence of Ether Doyle saw ‘The Answer’ to the meaning and purpose of life and everything…..but when he regained consciousness he could never remember what it was.

So he scattered paper and pencils all over the room so as to write down ‘The Answer’ before passing out.

Under the influence of Ether he managed to write ‘The Answer’ down and in ecstasy he retrieved it when he woke up.

He had written-

“There is a prevailing smell of Ether in the room”

[ZombieHorde]

32. Maybe he was having a Zen moment.

[bananas]

33. Was Ether his girlfriend?