I know why atheist are arseholes.

[Swede]

They've had relegion shoved in their faces all their lives. You shove back. The beievers and agnostics have to accept this,and not be so defensive. It's what being a liberal or progressive is all about. I am agnostic right now by the way.

[melody]

1. Agnostics have belief systems (or non-belief systems) shoved in our faces from both sides

But I don't think atheists are arseholes (or assholes, for that matter). I just give the poor sanctimonious ones
a lot of room between us (just as I do with Christians and other believers of one kind or another).

[Swede]

2. I have been a true believer a couple of times in my life.

And I look back and cannot understand that part of my life. Questions have to haunt the Pope. He has no line to God.

[AP]

3. Why people fight over someone else's faith or lack of it baffles me.

And your explanation seems so juvenile and hypocritical. If you're upset by having something "shoved in your face" and you think the solution is to shove it back, doesn't that sort of justify and guarantee the cycle of asininity?

I also think that being "an arsehole" about an issue is the first and last refuge of a person who can't really make a persuasive argument about that issue -- and that applies to people who push religion in your face as well as people who are "fundamentalist atheists". When you put the two together...well, there have to be much better ways to spend your life than getting caught in that vortex.

[Swede]

5. You say juvenile and hypocritical,I hope that I am neither.

I will try to back up both. I meant no lack on your part.

[trotsky]

4. I can sort of go along with this.

However I think another huge factor is that believers are quite accustomed to the special, privileged status that religious ideas have in society. So accustomed to it, in fact, that the expression of disbelief comes as a direct, personal attack. Much like if you lived in a protected bubble your whole life, never having human contact, and then you get out and walk down the street, and somebody brushes your arm. Ack! Overwhelming! How could that person be so insensitive and harsh?

[TZ]

6. Ding! You got it.

Has anybody ever been approached on the street by an atheist telling them to stop believing or something bad will happen to you. No. Had their doorbell rung by people who presume that you need to be saved from religion?No. But apparantly some people think thats no big deal when it goes the other way and I should ignore it, or be above it.
Its okay to tell me I'm going to hell or I'm not a real American or I should leave the country, or my beleifs are "dangerous" but I can't point out the flaws in their beliefs with out being painted as a you know what kind of atheist arsehole?
Hell yeah we have the right to be resentful!

[Dorian Gray]

9. I have no problems with people expressing non-belief

though I do agree that there is a huge segment in middle america who may not agree. In the ebb and flow of discussion, I try to take in the points that people make and see from their POV. In real life, away from these boards, the majority of my friends, though they may identify culturally as Jewish or Catholic or some sort of mainline Protestant denomination, really are pretty much non-religious. Not Agnostic or atheist. But rather... don't think about religion all that much, don't know what they believe, don't put much thought into it, and don't really care all that much. And yet, a number of these people might be shocked when one claims to be atheist.

It's a pretty interesting phenomenon.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. Hmm...

yes, I've seen that, too.

"Culturally religious" maybe? As an identity more than a belief?

[Dorian Gray]

27. I think that's it.

People are raised a certain way, so they embrace the cultural aspects of it rather than the theology or beliefs behind it. I've seen the same with political beliefs, to a certain extent. Kids in Republican or Democratic families raised that way and identify as such, without much knowledge about politics or why they identify the way they do.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. You know, I'm not threatened in the least by someone's

statement of disbelief.

It's when that statement migrates from a statement like "I don't believe X" to "Anyone who believes X is a delusional idiot" that I have a problem.

Which is what I hear is the problem many of us, believer or no, have with some right-wing, fundamentalist religions types. It's not their personal belief, per se. It's when they wish to extend their belief to our laws or our lives that we get itchy.

So whatever you (general you) choose to believe or disbelieve is fine by me. But it's nice when the same is extended my way, if you know what I mean.

(I'm not discounting that there are some people who DO take exception to your non-belief.)

[knitter4democracy]

23. Exactly what I was thinking.

Someone's faith path has nothing to do with me, so I don't care if they have one or not or where they're headed on it or what they believe or don't believe in. Telling believers that they're stupid, mentally ill, deranged, or worse is when I get a bit huffy.

[cosmik debris]

7. Not entirely true

And it is certainly a broad brush with which to smear.

I was raised in a Presbyterian household and graduated from a Baptist University where I "grew out of religion". The next twenty five years of my life were peaceful because I was not having to fight any battles on the religious front.

It wasn't until I was in my late 40's that my employer tried to shove his religion down my throat.

I fought back and lost.

But I still look back fondly on that previous 25 years of detente.

So, if you had posted that 20 years ago, I would have said NO! no one has ever shoved religion down my throat. And I believe that there are many atheists like that who have learned to peacefully coexist with peaceful religionists. We just "out grew religion" and went on with our lives.

Anyway, my point is that you should not confuse self-defense with assholery. And you should not call people assholes when they are working for the greater good (religious freedom). And most of all, you should know that religious thuggery is not the cause of atheism. Reality causes atheism.

[smoogatz]

8. I think atheists are sometimes perceived that way simply because

they state what, to them, is obvious: religious belief is a form of magical thinking. Many religious people find that critique—or any critique of their uncritically held beliefs—offensive. If what you believe is the "Revealed Truth," then the non-belief of others is likely to mean that there's something wrong with THEM, not with what you believe.

[Dorian Gray]

10. I agree with this

Religion, for a number of people, is truly a part of their self-identification. When someone asks me to describe myself, I might say that I am an Irish Catholic. That tells a lot about my beliefs, my worldview, my background, and who I am. It's inextricably tied into who I am. But, I try not to be too sensitive about criticism about the Catholic Church. A lot of the criticism was brought upon itself and it is deserved. They reaped what they sowed, and now it is their job to get beyond that.

The only thing that slightly annoys me is when someone assumes you are a "sheep" if you are religious. But it annoys me much in the same way it would annoy me if someone told me that the Beatles suck. :)

[knitter4democracy]

24. There's a meme I don't like.

Why do so many here assume believers don't critically assess their faith and have doubts? I don't know any believer who hasn't doubted whether it's all true or hasn't critically examined their faith from time to time.

Sure, there are probably some out there, but since Hubby and I went to an evangelical Christian college, I'd bet I know more evangelical Christians than most here, and everyone I went to college with and all of my Christian/Wiccan/Buddhist-Shinto/Mormon/Other faith friends whom I've spoken with about faith have all expressed doubts and times of questioning. Those who don't question their faith aren't very mature in it, usually, but are instead new believers still in the first high. Give them time.

[smoogatz]

28. Fair enough.

You're certainly entitled to believe whatever you believe, and question it (or not) to whatever extent seems reasonable to you. For me, the natural and obvious end of that process was non-belief, but there's no reason that should be the case for everyone. I think I may lack the spirituality gene, if such a thing exists (and if you're a non-believer, it stands to reason that the capacity for religious experience is hard-wired, for better or worse).

[knitter4democracy]

34. I've seen people take both paths on that.

I've had good friends who became atheists at the end of the process, and I've known Christians who became stronger in their faith at the end of the process. I think it's purely a personal thing and highly dependent on the person.

I kind of like the hard-wiring argument. It does seem to make sense.

[Evoman]

11. Atheists aren't assholes, people are assholes.

It isn't religion shoved in my face that make ME an asshole. I'm an asshole for entirely different reasons.

[Goblinmonger]

12. You're an asshole

because that's just how Latino's are.

I really need a :rimshot: smiley.

[Evoman]

13. You see Swede? There is even a spectrum of assholes in the atheist clique.

On one hand you have your everyday minor assholes like me. At the other end, you get the kind of person who takes assholery to such extremes, that the sheer gravity of the assholey center causes a sort of implosion. A black hole of ass-hole, so to speak.

Now, it is known that even a black hole ass-hole (which I will call a Blasshole),as big as it is, will nevertheless inevetably end up being attracted to a center blasshole. This blasshole is almost like a quasar, detectable from miles away and giving off high amounts of hot, unbearable asshole energy.

In english, this massive super-blasshole is known by its more common name, Goblinmonger.

[varkam]

14. For me, it's not so much a matter of pushing back...

but rather it's just that I don't see religion as something that is sacred and beyond rational inquiry. In fact I think it's one of the more interesting things around to think about. I just don't feel the need, though, to pull any punches when it comes to a discussion of religion.

[AllHereTruth]

15. What does this statment mean:

I am agnostic right now by the way.

[charlie]

17. It means

the week he lost his everloving mind over a chocolate Jesus and capped it by hoisting a celebratory drink to the death of (atheist) Kurt Vonnegut looks even more idiotic today.

[AllHereTruth]

20. Thank you for that Charlie :) n/t

[Silent3]

16. I don't go out of my way to say bad things about religion...

...and religious or "spiritual" ideas, but in a discussion forum like this, where such issues are obviously on the table and up for discussion, I'm frank and direct, and occasional a bit sarcastic, in a way I'm sure some people take as being an asshole.

It's not that I think that what I say is so over the top, but that so many people are so accustomed to the idea that religion must be respected, treated reverently, and handled with kid gloves. They confuse the respect they are owed for their right to believe as they wish with respect owed to their beliefs themselves.

A lot of these same people who expect such special deference feel no such restraint when it comes to their own approach to atheism -- just try to get elected to high public office in the US as an open atheist if you don't understand what I mean. A lot of believers seem to believe that "faith" of almost any brand, even when wildly incompatible with their own faith, is better than no faith at all. I doubt such people even think about the fact that they're essentially expecting atheists to quietly accept a status as second-class citizens, citizens who must place the beliefs of others on a pedestal that they themselves aren't entitled to.

Well, I don't need a pedestal for my atheism, but I'm not recognizing anyone else's pedestals either. I'm going to criticize, say, the doctrine of the trinity or crystal healing, with exactly the same sharpness I'd bring to criticizing trickle-down economics or the war in Iraq.

And even if that occasionally means comparing God to Santa Claus to make a point, so be it! :)

[knitter4democracy]

25. I've never seen you be all that snarky.

Some snark, sure, but nothing disrespectful or mean.

:hug:

[Silent3]

29. Fear my snark!

I know all the tricks: dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire.

[knitter4democracy]

33. Oh no! Not the puns!

*shudder* Never the puns. Okay, I surrender. Just don't use the puns!

:D

[and-justice-for-all]

21. That could not be further from the truth...

I am only an asshole when provoked, I do not go looking for a fight. But I will fight back...

I, for one, have not had religion shoved in my face. At least not from family or friends. Would 'outside' sources count for having shoved it in my face?

Religious ideology that has latched itself onto our Government pisses me off. the Dobsons, Hagees, Perkins, Robertsons, Phelps and Falwellians piss me off; with their hypocrisy and delusion of 'moral superiority."

[HamdenRice]

22. I agree to a certain extent

I don't agree with this:

"The beievers and agnostics have to accept this,and not be so defensive. It's what being a liberal or progressive is all about."

No one "has to accept" intolerance, and accepting intolerance is not what "being a liberal or progressive" is about; it's about combating intolerance.

To put it another way, the only ideology that free speech liberalism is not required to tolerate is any ideology that would close off free speech. The only ideology that tolerance is not required to tolerate is intolerance. That's a common puzzle of free speech scholarship.

[trotsky]

31. Please give examples of this "intolerance" of which you speak.

Last I checked, disagreeing with someone's religious opinion did not amount to intolerance. Even being rude about it doesn't make it intolerance. Shouting down people, calling them names, using a phrase against them that they've told you is derogatory and offensive, breaking the rules and getting multiple posts deleted - THOSE would be some pretty good signs of intolerance, I say.

[knitter4democracy]

26. I always keep that in mind when I read here.

If you go by polls on this board, as a Christian, I'm in the minority. So, I read here to learn more about those of non-faith and other faiths so I can learn how to use better language and not offend and know more about my Dem brothers and sisters.

It's more when people cross the line and just plain attack and use very loaded and negative language without even trying to debate or listen to another viewpoint when I get annoyed. I'm expected to be nice and respectful and listen politely and ask nice, polite questions, but it's okay for them to call me mentally ill or horrible names? Hmm. That doesn't seem right or fair.

[cynatnite]

30. Christians are assholes because they think their religion trumps all others...

Same could be said for Catholics, Muslims, etc...

Celebs, teenagers, politicians, etc...

:eyes:

[JerseygirlCT]

32. You know Catholics ARE Christians, right?

;)

[cynatnite]

36. According to some christians...they are not n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Those Christians would be terribly ill-informed then about the

history of their faith.

Catholicism *was* Christianity in the west until the Reformation.

[cynatnite]

38. Some of them, like my mother, don't care about history...

In her eyes, Catholics are not 'real' Christians.

[JerseygirlCT]

39. Well, not much to be done about that, is there?

But whether she cares about it or not, whether she likes it or not, doesn't change the fact that Catholics *are* Christians. In fact, if she's Protestant at all, her faith wouldn't exist without Catholicism.

[cynatnite]

40. Your fact and her fact contradict each other...

What does a person do? :shrug:

Me? I don't care. I'm an atheist and I think all religion is bogus. :smoke:

[JerseygirlCT]

41. Well, she has an *opinion*, which we obviously aren't going to change

OTOH, I have *fact*.

[Meshuga]

42. "Christians are assholes because they think their religion trumps all others..."

But what am I when I think my mama's opinion surpasses all facts?

God, do I sound like a 12-year-old or what? :-)

[JerseygirlCT]

43. I'm rubber and you're glue...

LOL.

[Meshuga]

44. LOL n/t

[varkam]

45. I'm guessing that these are the also the some christians...

who aren't exactly big readers, especially not when it comes to the bible.

[northernsoul]

35. Paint with a broad brush often?

just wondering

[conscious evolution]

46. You think they got it bad

Try being polytheist.We catch it from both sides.
At least the atheist have one thing going for them-None of the Ten Commandments are about them.