Lets postualte there is a God.

[Old and In the Way]

We are fucked.

[The Straight Story]

1. Personally, I think our view of God is fucked

And how we attached powers to god he/she never said they really had.

[Vilis Veritas]

2. Why?

[comradebillyboy]

3. We are fucked no matter what nt

[Speck Tater]

4. Next, let's postulate that

absolutely EVERYTHING the Bible says about God is incorrect.

Blank slate.
Tabula Rasa.

Now, what is God REALLY like?

[The Straight Story]

5. Maybe we should ask

What does the term God mean?

[Speck Tater]

14. That's easy.

G.O.D. = "Giver Of Data", the ultimate programmer who wrote this massively multiplayer video game we call "reality".

The afterlife is just where we hang out with our buddies between rounds of the game.
Reincarnation just means after "Game Over" you can, if you like, create a new character and jump back into the game for 80 or 90 years.
Magic just means learning the cheat codes, or figuring out God's login and password.
Miracle just means a special in-game event run by the GMs just to shake things up.
Supernatural just means anything which has it's origin outside the game in the real world (i.e. the real reality where we go between games.)

All the mysteries just go away when you realize that this reality is a simulation game. (e.g. "Hearing the voice of God" is just an in-game chat channel. No biggie. And when you KNOW you put your keys down on the counter and now they're mysteriously gone, well, that's just a bug in the database. Give it a minute and the sysadmin with get it fixed and your keys will be right back where you left them.)

[AuntPatsy]

19. Now that explanation actually makes sense..hmmm..

[Leopolds Ghost]

48. Now we know... Karl Rove is hacking the game code with debug patches and power mods.

Hence his "you live in the reality-based world. we create our own reality."

He decided to engineer the Bush character as a munchkin minmax with extra saves
against the karmic effects of Evil, 30 CHA and 2 INT, "just for shits and giggles".

[Vickers]

58. Dude, my wife and I agree...you need to start your own religion.

:thumbsup:

You could be like the virtual L. Ron Hubbard!

:headbang:

[comradebillyboy]

6. Do supernatural beings really exist?

I think they do not, until I see evidence to the contrary. I am not a man of faith.

[The Straight Story]

8. For some it is not so much faith as logic

Humans see themselves as the highest beings because we have not seen evidence of something higher, yet to the ant we are god, to the cow we are superior, and so on. To think we are the highest life form is reminiscent to me of religious people thinking the earth was the center of the universe/galaxy - when others finally broke free of that thinking they found the truth because they were willing to look and question a long established 'truth'.

They found evidence because they looked for it.

And until we look we probably won't find.

Belief is a hypothesis in some ways, and proof won't be found until we act to find it. Some will take it on faith (like they do Riemann and prime number theory - he has not been proven right, nor wrong, but his theory is still something solid we can bank on, much like Fermat's last theory - which was finally proven).

[tkmorris]

23. Do you REALLY think no one has looked?

People have been looking for evidence of higher life forms for as long as they have been upright. I'm not seeing your line of reasoning here.

[timtom]

54. Fermat's last theory

Actually, that's Fermat's last theorem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat's_last_theorem (q.v.)

[Evoman]

67. What is a "higher" form of life?

Why should life have a hierarchy, just because human civilization does? That's where we get religion and god...from applying human characteristics to things we should not.

[Vilis Veritas]

9. I don't know man, Yoda looked awfully real...

Did you see him flip and shit in SW 3 when he was fighting that evil dude? If that ain't god like, then you can take my wookie out and shoot him...

saddlesore

[WheelWalker]

33. Homo Sapien is supernatural. Witness submarines, skyscrapers, Apollo 11 and WWII.

[knitter4democracy]

64. How can we define God? I think we can only define Him by what He isn't.

Not the best way, granted, but how can mere words describe such a being?

[balantz]

7. Whatever makes this appear to happen

allows it to play out in the way that it is.

[Generic Brad]

10. All those things he does to punish communities -- my fault

Floods. Fires. Earthquakes. All terms of natural disasters. Even 9/11. I have been told repeatedly that I have caused them because I do not recognize god's power in my life. He punishes others because I refuse to believe.

Yes. We are fucked. And it is all my fault.

[tularetom]

11. Whaddya mean "we"?

I didn't do nothin!

And if god asks me I'll blame it all on you. Or somebody. Anybody. But not me.

[Lilith Velkor]

12. Let's not.

We're still fucked.

[vixengrl]

13. "I tremble for my country when I think that God is Just"--

Thomas Jefferson.

I don't postulate that there is a God, or if I try to posit one, the entity is so immense that it's inconprehensible to us. If I were to posit a Deity as moral arbiter, and supposed that moral arbiter to have *my* conclusions about right and wrong, then by and large, the human race does fall a little short of the median line--the "goodness cutoff." But a higher being could be Cthulhu as well as Jesus. If Cthulhu, hopefully he'll just eat us,not f----us. Jesus would probably have issues with us. It would be a long talk.

When I consider human cruelty though, I think I'm happy I'm an atheist, and don't suppose our race is judged. I see it going badly.

[Old and In the Way]

35. "When I consider human cruelty though, I think I'm happy I'm an atheist,"

Indeed, these past 7 years makes me want to be an atheist. We all better hope that there is no Judgemental God. Otherwise, I'm fucked. And the majority of Americans can join me in our collective fuckitude.

[provis99]

15. Go easy on the Big Guy Upstairs. Maybe he's just psychopathic

That's the impression I got from reading the Bible.

[izquierdista]

16. OK.....

I suppose he will be all-seeing, all-knowing, omnipotent, all-powerful, and he NEEDS MONEY! The most Supreme, Creator of the Universe, but he just can't handle MONEY!

[Wizard777]

17. If you don't want to spoil the ending.......of your life. Don't read this post!

When I was younger I had what they now call a near death experience. Make no mistake about it. I was dead as a door nail. But I didn't stay that way. So they just call it "near death" even though I was there on "the otherside." But anyway there is a God. He is very real, very beautiful, very wise, and very loving. That's all I'm gonna say. Because I know a few of you really don't want to spoil the ending of your life. But you read the post anyway. So I'm not going to give away the entire ending. Just this particular part of it. God is real.

[Old and In the Way]

18. I had the same kind of experieneces....

under the influence of LSD. In fact, that's probably when I became aware of a religious component in my life. When I sobered up, I became an agnostic. There could be a God, how do I know? But if there is one, he's going to judge us as evil. 1,000,000+ Iraqi's have been killed, based on our government's decision to invade and occupy their country. Did we get the Supreme OK to do this?

[Warpy]

22. Acid was a disappointing experience

because although I saw where all those carvings on Gothic cathedrals came from, nary a single god or goddess ever made an appearance.

The gargoyles and cabbage roses on a sheet of purple construction paper were as good as it got. I tried taking notes on the infinite knowledge I had attained during the experience, but all they said was drivel like "The Sugar Plum Fairy eats hairy cheese rainbows."

If the universe has a first cause with a personality, that personality is supremely unconcerned with me or anything I do.

It certainly never made an appearance when I was most vulnerable and willing to believe.

[Old and In the Way]

26. Respectfully, I think you miss my point.

If there is a God of Judgement....we are fucked.

[Warpy]

62. I got your point. There is none.

[timtom]

55. You should have looked at the sky

or a rushing river. Gargoyles are typically downers.

[Warpy]

63. Skies and rushing rivers held no fascination for me.

However, the ornate carpet in the lobby of an art deco theater in town did.

People who insisted I focus on whatever they were experiencing were always a major bringdown, though.

[Wizard777]

43. That's not uncommon for the use of an entheogen. LSD is a very powerful one.

We refer to it as the Liquid Light of Ethereal Delight. I'm Mazdian or Zorastrian. But I also consider myself to be Gnostic. I can nolonger believe in God. Because now I know he exists. As for His Judgement of us. I know how that will work. But I said I wouldn't say anything more than God exists. I'm going to keep my word on that.

[zeemike]

70. It is wise to stick to that Wiz

Those that understand your experience understand, and those that don't can't.

[Fox Mulder]

28. I heard that NDE's were brain hallucinations.

I mean, people who went through a NDE had an active brain. That's why they saw "the light" and such.

[WheelWalker]

36. Are there any other kind? Than "brain" hallucinations, I mean?

[Fox Mulder]

37. I don't know.

A part of me hopes so.

[Wizard777]

39. Olfactory hallucination. Smelling something that isn't really there.

Phantom smells can also be part of hauntings. I have experienced that too. If it was olfactory hallucination. Because of the other people there that also experienced it. It would be an olfactory mass hallucination. That's highly improbable. But that was more of a miracle investigation than a ghost hunt. The lady believed she was receiving visits from the Virgin Mary. She called her Our Lady of the roses. That was because the only manifestation of the visit was the smell of roses. It started off faint and increased until the smell of roses was so strong it would just about gag you. Then it disapated. We were lucky enough to be there when that actually happened. We turned that house upside down and inside out. There was no discernable source of the smell anywhere and it was everywhere. I can't honestly say it was a visit for the Virgin Mary. But I can honestly say something paranormal is going on there.

[Wizard777]

44. Much of NDE's can also be reproduced in lab settings.

The feeling of floating and disassociation with the body. They can even reproduce the tunnle. But there is one thing that they can't reproduce in the lab. They can't put the light at the end of the tunnle.

[SlipperySlope]

38. God is real.

But most preconceptions of God are not.

If you believe in yourself, you believe in God, even if you don't know it.

[Wizard777]

42. I agree that most preconcieved notions of God are wrong. At least by my experience.

I also can't really say if my experience with meeting God was typical. Because some of the stuff he told me about my self and other things I was more than ready to write off as halucination. It was incredible at best and crazy at worst. Either way I didn't want it to be true. But I kept finding information that constantly reinforced what he told me as being true. What's really weird is that he revealed himself to me by a name that was totally foreign to me at the time. Ahura Mazda. Great! God is the chick from Star Trek in a Japanese car. Then I started to stumble across information on Zoroastrianism. That's when I discovered that Ahura Mazda actually meant Wise Lord. I have to say that my death and second or continued life have been very much a guided learning experience. There is no longer any doubt in my mind that it is being guide from above. He's broken me of that in a very accomodating way. The more I doubted him or the path he was trying to lead me down. The more proof he would send me. But I can only speak of my experience and it very well may not be typical.

[Hekate]

41. That is sweet. My mother in law is at the threshold now, & I hope this is her experience...

...when she finally crosses over.

Hekate

[Wizard777]

45. Please please please don't take this the wrong way. Having seen where she is going.

I hope she gets to stay. Sometimes I deeply resent being sent back. My memories of the astral plane and God are so beautiful. It's enough to make me break down and cry. My only consolation is in knowing that it was for a purpose that is greater than I. When they discovered that I had come back to life. When I regained conciousness. The very first thing I did was slug the Doctor that was working on me dead square in the jaw. I didn't want to leave where I was and I initially thought it was his fault I did. Then I remembered God telling me that I must go back. I know you all love her dearly and want her to be with you forever. But when she goes. I hope she gets to stay with God and doesn't have to come back here. Once you've been free of your body. It's not easy getting used to be back in it. It took me months to get used to the weight of my own flesh. It was a cumbersome burden. When everyone tells you that she's in a better place now. Just know that even though it's an understatement if there ever was one. She truly is. God Bless you all.

[Hekate]

49. She's 95, had a stroke 2 weeks ago, is gradually fading from us...It's close. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

51. Thaks a LOT for spoiling it for those of us who haven't died yet.

I know you got a free press screening and all but next time use rollover text or something. :hi:

[New Dawn]

68. non-Christians and atheists have had near death experiences as well

That means that either it is something in the brain that is causing it, or everyone goes to an afterlife. And, btw, the non-Christians did not have any "Hell" like experiences. They described it as a very nice place. There was no mention of a deity either.

[Zebedeo]

69. Here's a story about a non-Christian's near death experience

And, btw, the non-Christians did not have any "Hell" like experiences. They described it as a very nice place. There was no mention of a deity either.

Howard Storm begs to differ.

[Old and In the Way]

20. Lets postulate there is no God.

We're still on the hook for millions of innocent Iraqi deaaths. We're still fucked.

[psychmommy]

21. i don't crap on atheists or agnostics.

why do you feel the need to crap on my faith. whoever or whatever your beliefs, they are yours. somebody said whatever gets me through life. my faith does. if not believing is your way fine. why do we have to one up each other on this subject. we're here because we're dems, not because we agree on everything.

[Old and In the Way]

24. Whoa, slow down psychmommy!

I have no idea what you believe and I could care less. All I said is, 'Lets postulate that there is a God'. If so, I think we're all going to Hell. We're all responsible for the misery we've visited on this World since 3/03.

[psychmommy]

27. sorry, i get a little defensive.

because of the fundies christians are getting a lot of heat. i apologize for jumping to conclusions.

[AuntPatsy]

34. There is no reason to be upset? Faith is a personal experience in my opinion,

I really don't need to ensure others believe the way that I do nor have I ever taken offense that others do not believe, you need to realize that hell is nothing more than a man made fear put out there to ensure the masses of little people will remain fearful enough to allow themselves to be led around like little sheep.

Whats wrong with living your own life the way you seem fit? Do you seriously need to believe that if you don't act in a certain manner or ensure that others do not make fun of what you believe to be your God that you will have somehow sinned?


Really take a look at the world around you...really take a look....do you seriously believe there is a supreme being "God" that answers peoples prayers while ignoring others? Do you seriously believe "God" cares who wins a football game and the like? Do you believe a God would take sides when countries are at war? do you seriously believe that your life is more worthy then another simply because you have faith?


Hurricanes, floods, volcano eruptions, Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Mudslides, Wars, etc, etc etc, to me is pretty good proof that we humans are not as important as we seem to think we are....innocent lives are taken every single day, many leave this world in mortal pain and many more live their lives for far too long in mortal pain without hope the end will come soon enough, life is just not that important, thats more than obvious...


No one is crapping on your faith unless you yourself have reason to doubt it...I have faith because like you said it helps me in the bad times, probably the only reason I do, but my faith is different, maybe not better than yours just different, I could care less who agrees with me nor could I care how you feel as long as you don't use your faith as a tool that all must live by but I am always interested in how different people feel about faith and so I love such discussions personaly...


I really don't understand people getting so upset when people discuss religion in rational and sometimes humorous ways...you know, perhaps the way they deal with it helps them the same way that you deal with yours...its hard for me to believe in prayer simply because I don't think that I am any better than another who might not believe their prayer was heard so why should I ensure they feel unworthy and tell them to pray when I know very well prayer does not always get you what you wish for?..

Too much horror in this world exists and will continue, its pretty obvious, if a "God" as some call the supreme being as I like to believe him to be did walk among us there is no way he would just sit back and allow such horrors to continue, nor would he love adoration, power, greed and be petty and vengeful, I don't like the man made God, he is not someone that I would want to know, sounds too much like Bush type people...the supreme being I believe exists somewhere out there is nothing like us humans...if he or she is, then God help us all because then even when we die we are definitely in fear of being screwed over.

[psychmommy]

59. faith is personal

i interact with folks of different religions and feel comfortable. i don't judge them nor do they judge me. i interact with folks who don't believe in a higher power, i don't try to convince them nor they me. there's a difference between discussion and monologue. if you begin the discussion thinking you're right and the other person is wrong there is not much of a discussion.

[knitter4democracy]

65. Um, where's the crapping on our faith?

I thought we asked these kinds of questions and said this kind of stuff amongst ourselves all the time. At least, Hubby and I and our friends at our Christian college sure did.

[WheelWalker]

25. If God, then fucked? God IS we fucked? Please explain.

If God observed, then what? Fucked? Please explain.

On Edit - add pronoun

[Old and In the Way]

29. Not sure how I can simply further.;

If you believe in God, good luck explaining why we had to kill a million Iraqis the past 7 years. If there is no God, enjoy.

[WheelWalker]

30. It may not be "enjoy," there being no God. There is still the law of action & consequences.

[Old and In the Way]

31. If there is no God, is there a concept of consequences and actions.?

My proof is:

Bush/Cheney exist. Therefore there are no laws of actions and consequences.

[WheelWalker]

32. Waiting Is.

[timtom]

57. You are limiting it to your particular sense of time and space.

I believe (notice that this is my opinion) I believe that Bush and Cheney will reap very dire consequences for their inhumanity. I don't know how. I don't know when. But some form of hell awaits them.

[Hekate]

40. On the theory that there is, I continually pray that Obama lives to be an old, old man

Because otherwise, we really are screwed.

Hekate

[Radical Activist]

46. Suppose "God" is an elective office held by various beings over the years.

And that the founding of different world religions represent the efforts of different beings in the office of God. None of those Gods has power over the free will or fate of anyone.

[Indenturedebtor]

53. Like "Q" from Star Trek? Those episodes were a hoot :D n/t

[Indenturedebtor]

47. If there is a god then he/she isn't doing a very good job n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

50. Think of it this way: Humans are important to God, but so are sparrows

And dust mites on the planet Omicron Perseii 8.

It's up to humans to act out the story of our own existence (which is already no doubt foreordained, but it is ours to act the part; time is a series of choices, of inputs and outputs shaping who we are) and defy expectations set up by the limiting equations which define what is and is not a bipedal sentient being in our section of the multiverse. In other words, using reason we can defy expectations of base instinct for destruction and consumption of resources and become who we have it in ourselves to be.

God is the universal consciousness that transcends time (time is an illusion after all). Given that we're all going to die and leave this world behind eternally (for either oblivion or transcendence, take your pick) and seeing as how that eternity is likely to pass in the blink of an eye (just like all the time before we were born) what's the big deal? The secret to living a good life is to abandon all attachments; to love something you have to be prepared to let it go because all things worth valuing are impermanent.

[rebel with a cause]

52. We are fucked is exactly right.

It makes no difference if there is a god or not, this world is a mess. Is it in more of a mess than it has been in other parts of human's history? No. But we have gone backwards from where we were. We had an age of enlightment, where we decided that we were our brothers keeper. Now we have gone back to a time where if you don't do exactly what I want you to or if you are in my way, you are nothing to me. I call this the me'ism age. Everything rotates around the 'me' image. You see that in bush, he sees the world only as it affects him, to hell with everyone else. You can call it narcism or whatever, but I take it back to the motivation speakers/books that convinced people that they had to put themselves first to be happy.

As far as god is concerned, I had came to my own conclusion and was flattered to find out it was the same one that Einstein came to. I don't know if it is a god, a collective power or what, but I feel there is a something out there. Something that sometimes guides what we do. I can't explain it, but somehow we are influenced by it.

[DiverDave]

56. If there is an all encompassing god

he's a fucking monster.

[papapi]

60. Who created God?

[FarCenter]

61. There may be a God, but it is unlikely that it is aware of human beings

It is at least plausible that there is a cosmological God, i.e. creator and sustainer of the universe.

But it is completely implausible that such a God is aware of or concerned about human beings.

It would be as though you were aware of or concerned about the ant hill by the stone bridge in Central Park.

[John Gauger]

66. Why?

You didn't postulate anything concerning judgment, or about what that god values.