Messianic Jews say they are persecuted

[azurnoir]

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family. The explosion severed two toes, damaged his hearing and harmed a promising basketball career.

Ami Ortiz, interviewed at the Tel Aviv hospital where he is being treated, comes across as no different from any Jewish Israeli his age. He's a sabra, or native-born Israeli, who speaks English with a Hebrew accent, has an older brother in an elite Israeli army unit and was hoping to join the youth squad of Maccabi Tel Aviv, a league-topping basketball team.

Messianic Jews consider themselves Jewish, observing the holy days and reciting many of the same prayers. The Ortiz family lights candles on the Jewish Sabbath, shuns pork and eats matzoth on Passover.Lawyer Dan Yakir of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel says the law allows missionaries to preach provided they don't offer gifts or money or go after minors.

"It is their right according to freedom of religion to maintain their religious lifestyle and disseminate their beliefs, including through literature," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_missionaries

I will admit that years ago upon first hearing of this sect my first thought was "traitors", but on second thought it seemed if there was such a thing as a "proper" Christianity this was it. I have never understood why logically Jewish laws did not cross over into in to Christianity, except for political and economic reasons at the time

[Ian David]

1. This is kind of like getting into a fist-fight over Kirk vs Piccard. n/t

[azurnoir]

3. Ah but what about

Janeway?:evilgrin:

[Ian David]

4. DIE, HERETIC!

I'm kidding.

She's my favorite.

[Taverner]

2. Well Ortiz can definitely claim persecution

Unless there was some other reason

But on the other hand, Ortiz should keep his beliefs to himself - and not try to push others into it.

[Meshuga]

5. Fanatic ultra-Orthodox Help the cause of fanatic Messianic Jews

Massianic "Judaism" was created back in the 1960's as an effort to convert Jews who don't know much about the nature of Judaism. They are Jews who in fact follow the Christian faith and instead of calling their religion Christianity they choose to dress as Jews and follow some Jewish holidays in order to say that Judaism is Christianity without Jesus.

By being morons when burning books and using violence against messianic Jews, ultra-orthodox Jews are just helping raise the perception that the difference between Jews and Christians is "who has the correct messiah" which helps the messianic cause.

Ultra-orthodox Jews don't just attack messianic Jews but any other Jew who don't fall in line. For example, secular Jews who open their business on the Sabbath are also attacked by such groups. A Conservative synagogue in Israel was attacked this past winter since it did not fall in line with their line of thought.

The beef that Jews in general have with messianic Jews is the deception they use in order to proselytize. They use the word Judaism in order to sell Christianity. But they are not really a danger to deserve such treatment.

I disagree with you, azurnoir, since I don't think Messianic Jews follow proper Christianity from its begining. If they believed Jesus as the messiah in the Jewish context of the word I would agree with you. But they believe in the Christian concept of messiah (son of God savior of souls) and follow the same beliefs as a Christian fundies today. Except they wear yarmulke, tallit, target Jews, and refer to Jesus as Yeshua.

[azurnoir]

7. My opinion about Messianic Jews

or any other Christian is based on the fact that Jesus no matter who's son he was; is himself a Jew and as a Jew followed the law himself (presumably). Christianity from the at least the time Constantine and the first council of Nicea was and to a great degree is IMHO a political construct introduced in an attempt to hold together a failing empire. The reason(s) for things such as dietary laws not being enforced were obvious pork was used extensively in Europe and to bar that along with certain seafoods would not have been attractive to most and could have caused hardship. The same could be said of Christian holidays which just happen to fall at the same times as most pagan ones did, this is no accident. And lets not forget that circumcision thing either, I'd wager a millennia and three quarters worth of Christian men breathed a sigh of relief over that one.

[Meshuga]

8. I agree with Ribofunk below

James' movement was probably a Torah based and followers of Jewish Law. So one can argue they are a Jewish movement and not even Christian in the sense we know the word. The James movement are probably a good comparison to the Chabadniks (Lubavitch Jews) today who still believe that the late Rebbe (Menachem Mendel Schneerson) was the messiah and are strict Torah followers.

I also always had the impression that Paul introduced the New Covenant doing away with Jewish law way before Constantine and the first council of Nicea.

Messianic Jews follow Pauline Christianity so whether they are "proper" Christianity I don't know. All I know is that they follow Christianity. :-)

[knitter4democracy]

9. There's a whole section in Acts about it, though.

It's corroborated by other early writings, too, that the very early Church dealt with whether to keep kosher and to keep with circumcision or not. Sts. Peter and Paul argued heavily that Jesus had freed the Church from following those laws, and they won at the very first Church council in Jerusalem.

The early church wasn't that organized, but it came up with much of the main theology before St. Constantine convened the council.

[azurnoir]

10. Thank you

I am not familiar with the new testament at all, so the for the information.

[knitter4democracy]

15. The Book of Acts is the history of the Church in the first few years.

It's a bit dry to read, but it details Sts. Peter and James's work, the rise of St. Paul, and how the early Church dealt with their disagreements.

[TZ]

13. Of all the religions I've encountered

Messianic Jews aggravate me by far the most. Definitely strike me as a "I have my cake and I'm gonna eat it too".
they damn well are Christians and to pretend any differently is the height of hypocrisy, IMHO.

[Meshuga]

17. They aggravate me as well. To no end!

Because of their intentions. They can believe whatever they want but they should call their religion Christianity because that is the proper label. I see them as trying to insult my intelligence when coming to me to preach their religion calling it Judaism.

I have already heard what missionaries have to say and I'm still not interested. No need to play dress up in order to get me to listen. To me they are nothing but a Christian equivalent of spammers finding new ways of sending me unwanted spam.

What is most annoying about Messianic Jews, is not that they practice Jewish customs (after all Jesus supposedly followed Jewish customs), but that they say their religion is Judaism. Anyone who believes in the divinity of Jesus (or any messiah for that matter) is no longer following Judaism.

[Zebedeo]

21. Does this mean that, in your opinion,

"real Jews" would never accept a messiah, no matter what?

You said that anyone who believes in any messiah is no longer following Judaism. I had been under the impression that Jews (other than the Messianic Jews) were still waiting for their messiah. Are you saying that is not true, or are you saying that they are waiting, but the messiah will never come?

If they are waiting for a messiah that they believe will never come, isn't that illogical? What would be the point of waiting for something that will never come?

On the other hand, if they are waiting for a messiah that they do believe will eventually come, how do they expect to recognize the messiah -- i.e. what characteristics will the messiah have that will make these Jews acknowledge him (or her)?

[Meshuga]

27. Judaism does not believe in the Christian concept of a messiah

There is no divine son of God figure who is needed for salvation in Judaism. That's a Christian concept and not a Jewish concept. A Jew who beliefs in the coming of a messiah doesn't have the Christian idea of a messiah in mind. The messiah concept in traditional Judaism is a hope for a great political (military) charismatic leader who is a human being (not a god, demi-god, son of god or other supernatural being) to come and usher us to a messianic age. A time of righteousness. Not a means of personal salvation.

The concept of a messiah in Judaism is a carrot so Jews can chase by following Jewish law. There is no need to accept a messiah to help bring about this "messianic era", the only thing required is for Jews (and Jews only) to follow Jewish law. The belief is that if we want to change the world for the better we have to change ourselves first.

A "real Jew" is a person who is born of a Jewish mother or who converted to Judaism. If he/she follows Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, no religion, or whaterver... does not make him/her less of a Jew. He/she is a real Jew.

Judaism, however, is one thing and Christianity is another. Following Christianity and calling it Judaism in order to try and convert Jews is when things get iffy in my opinion. I find that HIGHLY offensive. Christianity has a salvation story. Judaism does not have a salvation story but a story of survival. It is highly offensive when someone tries to change its nature creating confusion about something we have been trying so hard to maintain throughout the ages. I see it as disrespectful and it pisses me off!

Christianity is a religion where people achieve salvation through Jesus. I have no beef if anybody chooses to believe and follow Christianity, including Jews who choose to follow Christianity. But Judaism is a different animal. We find our spirituality through the mitzvot system. Following Jewish ethics, Jewish spirituality, and Jewish folkways are the things we work so hard to keep. And I wonder why it is so hard for these people to understand and accept.

[eyl]

29. In Judaism,

the Mashiach (Messiah) is a mortal man, not a divine being. Tradition has it that there is a potential Mashiach born in every generation, but he will only manifest if the Jewish people of the time are worthy of it.

The Mashiach is supposed to be recognized by who he is (e.g. a descendent of David) and more importantly his actions (e.g. gathering all the Jews to Israel, reestablishing the temple, and so on). Jesus did not fufill those conditions (certainly not the second set) ergo he is not the Mashiach as far as Jews are concerned.

See also here

[Zebedeo]

22. I refer to them as Jewish Christians

or Christian Jews.

I, of course, think it is wonderful when some of God's chosen people turn to Christ, just as I think it is wonderful when anyone else does.

Also, you must understand that what you view as "proselytizing," they view as trying desperately to save you from the fires of Hell. It is out of benevolent and selfless intentions that these people evangelize to the lost, whatever their ethnic identity.

[Meshuga]

28. I think I made clear elsewhere in this thread that I understand that missionaries

believe they are doing something good when trying to save people. I have no doubts about that. However, my beef is not with the proselytizing that I can politely turn down but with the dishonest way that it is being done not respecting Judaism. "Jew" is one thing "Judaism" is another. A Jew can believe whatever makes him/her happy. He can even call himself a Christian Jew if so pleases him. I have no beef with that. I do have a beef, however, when my tradition is disrespected by a group that dresses up like people who practice Judaism, and more importantly, define their form of Christianity as Judaism in order to achieve their goal.

[Zebedeo]

31. Do you say that you practice Judaism?

If so, couldn't the same criticism that you level against the Christian Jews be directed at you? Isn't it true that, while you are culturally Jewish, you do not believe in many of the most fundamental tenets set forth in the Torah? In another thread years ago, you told me that you do not believe that any of the miracles described in the Bible actually occurred. Couldn't a believing Jew accuse you of disrespecting her tradition by dressing up like a person who practices Judaism when in fact you don't really believe in the religion?

Can you understand that Jews who were raised in Jewish households and Jewish synagogues may wish to retain various Jewish customs, including religious rituals, that are familiar to them, even after they have found Christ? If you believe it is dishonest for them, is it also dishonest for you to retain such customs?

[Meshuga]

32. You look at this with Christian lenses

That is why it is so hard for you to understand. I am not only a cultural Jew. I am a religious Jew. I follow Judaism. Not only culturally but I follow the religion.

Jews are not told to believe in the Pentateuch as books containing literal facts. We are told to follow torah which is more than the first five books of the bible. An Orthodox Jew, for example, would not care if I said I don't believe that the miracles described in the bible actually occurred. Perhaps he doesn't believe it either or perhaps he does but it doesn't matter because a practicing Jew is told to practice torah he is not told to believe in Torah. The same orthodox Jew would accuse me of disrespect if I did not follow the mitzvot. Ask an orthodox Jew if he prefers an atheist Jew who follow torah or a believing Jew who does not follow Torah he will most likely pick the former and criticize the latter.

In Christianity you have to believe Jesus is your personal savior. In Judaism we have to follow torah. Christianity has a salvation story. Judaism has a survival story. Jewish movements don't argue over belief but argue over who has the best method to make Judaism survive. "Jews for Jesus" are not worried about survival of Judaism or following torah, they are worried about converting Jews to Christianity.

You use the Pentateuch to base your Christian belief. We use the Torah to follow its laws or folkways.

Like Jewish mysticism explains about the torah, the stories are its garments, the law is the body, and the soul is found underneath the laws and the stories. Look in the Zohar and you will see a passage that goes like this:

"The narratives of the Torah are its garments...Woe unto the fools who look no further when they see an elegant robe! More valuable than the garment is the body which carries it, and more valuable even than that is the soul which animates the body."

Judaism has torah. Christianity has Jesus. If you follow Torah you are following Judaism. If you follow Jesus you are following Christianity. Christians Jews follow Jesus therefore they follow Christianity. I follow Torah, therefore I follow Judaism. If a Jew doesn't follow anything then he is a secular Jew. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

[Book Lover]

35. This is still the best and most concise description of Judaism

for christians I have come across. It certainly helped me understand the differences. Thank you, Mr Wiggles.

[On the Road]

23. Oh My God, Yes

I visited a message board of messianic Jews once. You think DU is bad? It was the most poisonous site I have ever encountered on the internet. It displayed every negative stereotype of both Jews and Christian fundamentalists.

In fact, there seems to be a strange kind of role reversal. You go to a discussion board for daytraders and speculators -- those greedy amoral vultures -- and they're all like "Thank you for taking time to post that insightful analysis. I don't agree, but something to keep in mind and I've always admired your work."

The funniest message board was for people who create fake celebrity nude photos (yes, there is one). The work was usually pretty pathetic, but their attitude to fellow posters was almost courtly.

[Dorian Gray]

34. Aren't there other non-Christ based messianic

Jewish groups?

I thought that there were groups that believed that certain Messiahs (The Rebbe, among others) have already come, but they weren't a Christian style Messiah.

The Lebovic (sp?), for instance?

[On the Road]

6. The Reason Jewish Law Does Not Carry Over to Christianity

has to do with Paul, who for all purposes founded the non-Jewish part of the churn and created the ground rules and theology.

Jesus is quoted in the gospels as overturning Jewish dietary laws and arguing against the strict enforcement of commandments like the Sabbath ('the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath'). He is also depicted as breaking certain other regulations such as those involved in associating with gentiles, sinners, and the unclean. (The accuracy of that depiction is, of course, open to question.)

Paul taught that the entire Jewish law ('the Old Covenant') had been superseded by the New Covenant of forgiveness by Christ Jesus. That may have been motivated by (1) the difficulty of converting gentiles to a religion requiring circumcision and elaborate ritual laws, (2) his antagonism toward stricter Jewish followers of Jesus, and (3) his upper-class birth outside of Judea in an atmosphere in which Jewish law was probably not strictly kept (like Reformed Jews today).

What probably happened is that Paul (a master of spin and rhetoric) took certain real sayings and deeds of Jesus out of context and expanded them beyond anything Jesus himself would have approved of. Jesus is also quoted as saying "not a jot, not a tittle shall pass from the law until all is accomplished," which directly contradicts Paul's antinomianism. I have only recently begun to appreciate that much of the criticism directed at the 'scribes and Pharisees' in the gospels ('they tithe mint, dill, and cumin') is really criticism of Paul's more observant Christian opponents.

In fact, the oldest branch of Christianity, led by Jesus' brother James, had a much stricter attitude toward the Jewish law. Acts mentions circumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, eating blood or carrion (implying kosher practices), and ritual purification for the temple among others. Paul speaks in scathing terms of these practices as well as ridiculing things like observing a strict calendar of festivals and observances.

The movement started by James no longer exists -- it was a victim of the two revolts against Rome (66 and 135AD) and the resulting massacres of Jews of all kinds. (The second also led the church to repudiate the Sabbath entirely and replace it with worship on Sunday.) Islam dealt the final blow in the 7th C. You can find bits and pieces preserved in the Books of James and Jude, anti-heretical writings, and Christianity outside the Roman empire.

That's more of an answer than you asked for, but it's a big subject and cuts against a lot of traditional assumptions about the Bible and early church.

[azurnoir]

11. Interesting information

However I don't get meat sacrificed to idol's or the blood and carrion parts though.
I was raised in a pretty secular household, classic dichotomy Catholic mother Jewish father both nonreligious.

[On the Road]

24. Meat Sacrificed to Idols Was a Huge Issue in the Early CHurch

If you didn't lived outside of Judea, much of the meat sold by butchers had been already sacrificed to a pagan idol. Eating it was considered to be participating in idolatry.

Blood or carrion (alternate readings of James' Noahic restrictions) was saying that meat had to butchered in a kosher way with the blood drained out.

These are not things you encounter much today except among conservative Jews and practicing Muslims (since halal is a variation of kosher).

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. You don't quite have it right

First off, the Gospels make it clear that Jesus was an observant Jew. There is no place in the Gospels where he overturns any part of the Torah. Incidents such as picking and eating grain on the Sabbath were actually pretty mainstream: The Sadducees, who controlled the Temple, demanded blind obedience to the letter of the Law because the sacrifice industry is how the made their money. The Pharisees, on the other hand, called for obedience to the spirit of the Law, which is a consistent theme in Jesus' teachings.

Second, you overlook the Council of Jerusalem, mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 15. Missionaries were telling wanna-be converts that they first had to convert to Judaism -- which meant circumcision for the men and adherence to the Law for everyone -- before they could become Christians. Paul was part of a delegation who complained to the Apostles. After much debate, the Apostles decreed that Gentiles would be allowed to join the movement provided that they obeyed the so-called Noatic Code, ie those olded parts of the Law which Judaism taught had been placed upon all the descendants of Noah. We read:

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, with the following letter:

"The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, greeting. Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

Acts of the Apostles, 15:22-29

Granted, Paul preached against even these few restrictions, calling them crutches for the weak. But it should be noted that it was the Apostles, not Paul, who freed Gentile believers from the Law.

Lastly, there is every reason to believe that the movement led by James was the same movement created by Jesus. Paul himself admits that he preached a religion based on what he received via revelation and not by what he had received through the teachings of the Apostles. Paul had never met Jesus before his execution, and had started preaching his version of Christianity long before he ever had an opportunity to meet the Apostles. I am inclined to say that Paul made stuff up, not James.

[knitter4democracy]

14. Thank you. I was too tired yesterday to post this.

St. James was the first bishop of Jerusalem, and I've always found his epistle to be the hardest to read but the most needed.

[On the Road]

25. Perhaps I Should Have Included a Disclaimer to Azurnoir

that I was not describing the traditional mainstream understanding of the issues, although I do think it's the best reading of all the sources.

There are two places I can think of where Jesus specifically upholds the law:

"Not a jot, not a tittle will pass from the law..." and
"These things (tithing mint, dill, and cumin) you should have done without forgetting the other."

I find it difficult to believe that Jesus both said these things and declared all foods clean. He may have said that it is not what goes into the body, but what comes out (of the mouth) that makes people unclean, but it is likely that the conclusion of declaring all foods clean was an unwarranted extrapolation by later writers or editors. That would have been a pretty clear break from the law, and sounds more like something Paul would have said.

There may have been some latitude on things like walking or casually picking grain on the Sabbath. It may have been a necessity to attract support in Galilee and the Judean countryside. I would expect that most poor rural people would have found it difficult to practice the law rigorously as it was taught. But nowhwhere that I know is Jesus depicted as encouraging people to obey the law.

---------------------

I do not agree that it was the other apostles that freed gentile converts from the law. I believe it bgan with Paul. Paul describes James as sending representatives "to spy on our freedom." Although Peter is described as breaking bread with uncircumcised converts, he seems to have felt guilty about it and stopped when the representatives from James arrived.

By Paul's own account, he was perceived as a heretic and pretty much excommunicated. It's often thought that Paul had problems only with nonmessianic Jews, but he writes "all have abandoned me, even Barnabas."

The more I read Acts, the less I trust it as an accurate source, although I think it contains very revealing hints if you keep its agenda in mind.

[Igel]

30. I'd like a reference for the circumcision being required

of non-Jews by James' group.

All the references I find include a list like "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood," Paul's saying that he didn't find any difference when he consulted with them , and then Paul's argumentation about some who say Gentiles need to be circumcised.

I don't see anything showing that it was the Jerusalem group under James who insisted on circumcision.

Paul's antinomianism is ambiguous; every place has two meanings, since he's not clear--is he arguing against observing the Law (even as he argues not to fear it), or he is arguing against others outside the church?

[knitter4democracy]

16. Forgive my ignorance, but are they with Jews for Jesus?

Is that a separate group? I always thought that one was more than a little odd.

[Meshuga]

18. Different groups with the same goal

of targeting the Jewish community in their missionary work.

The odd group,IMO, is the Jews for Jesus since they give me the impression that they are very cultish where members who enter the organization have problems leaving the organization. There is an ex-Jews for Jesus website with former members telling their personal "horror" stories.

[knitter4democracy]

19. I've gotten that feeling about them, too.

One of my cousins interned in their office or worked there or something, and the light she got in her eyes when talking about them put me off immediately. Something's really wrong with that group.

Then here's my real question: why the heck would anyone try to convert Jews to Christianity? After doing some mission work in college, I'm squeamish about converting in general, but this one makes no sense to me at all. The Jews are still God's Chosen People, from what I understand, so why not leave them alone? This blending of the two faiths just confuses the issue and is more than a little weird. The Book of Acts makes it clear that converts do not have to keep their Jewish ways and that the Church gave up kosher laws and such early on, so why would someone convert but still keep The Law? I can't really explain it, but it feels wrong deep down to me. Mission work amongst the Jews is wrong.

[Meshuga]

20. These guys are religious fanatics

In their minds, Jews are doomed for not believing in Jesus' divinity and not believing in salvation through accepting Jesus Christ. So they feel the need to proselytize in order to save us in what they see as the universal war for souls.

We can always reject the attempts of missionaries but what bothers me the most is not the message that I can choose to reject but the methods used by this group.

In their ignorance, Jews for Jesus/Messianic Jews claim that they follow Jesus' true religion and customs but then they follow talmudic customs that did not exist until after Jesus lived. :-)

[knitter4democracy]

26. Like I read in a Russian newspaper once, "It's like they're selling God."

Mission work that isn't done on a personal basis and only after someone asks about it really is a sales job. God doesn't need to be sold.

As for worrying about souls, I leave that up to Judgement. I think they should too.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

33. Check out this website for more information.

www.jewsforjudaism.org

They state that Jews for Jesus is a front group for the Southern Baptists to sneakily convert Jews.

I find Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus to be intellectually dishonest and repulsive.

[IndianaGreen]

36. These scum are not Jews! They are Christian fundies pretending that keeping Jewish customs

make them Jews. Have they not forgotten the Schma? God is One! Not two, or three, and definitely not human!

[TCJ70]

37. I know some messianic jews in Israel...

...and they really do have a hard time with employment and other things if it's known that you are messianic. This isn't a made up thing.