Dead Sea tablet suggests Jewish resurrection imagery pre-dates Jesus

[Phx_Dem]

The premise that the Messiah died and was resurrected after three days is considered the foundation of the Christian faith, one which differentiates it from Judaism. Through the generations, this belief stood at the center of the debate between Christians and Jews. But now, a mysterious tablet from the time of the second temple has led researchers to believe that this premise of messianic resurrection is not unique to Christianity, but rather existed in Judaism years before Jesus was born.

The tablet, which has been dubbed "Gabriel's vision" because much of its text deals with a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, was discovered eight years ago, but a large part of it is illegible and researchers have had difficulty interpreting its meaning.

Israel Knohl, a professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, has offered a new interpretation of this text recently, which has sparked interest in the Christian realm. Knohl's interpretation could shed light on the history of Jesus and the way Christianity grew out of Judaism.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999719.html

[Teaser]

1. It's pretty thin evidence if that's all he's got...

I'm sure there's more to it than the article outlined. But as it stands it doesn't convince me.

[wurzel]

2. Has all the validity of the entrails of a chicken.

[Ian David]

3. Some will see this as a vindication of the prophesy of Jesus.

Others will see it as evidence that Christians just re-wrote old Jewish stories using Jesus as a new character.

However, I think "Jews" for Jesus will get more mileage out of this than anyone else.

[hedgehog]

4. There's this whole manuscript with all kinds of imagery about how

the Messiah must suffer.



It's called the Book of Isaiah!

[Ian David]

5. Apparently NOT prophesy, but about a historical figure named Shimon.

<snip>

"This is a revolutionary text," Knohl said when presenting his research at a conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls held this week at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. "The text changes the way we look at the historical Jesus, and provides a missing link connecting Judaism and Christianity," he added.

"I identified a previously unrecognized Jewish notion that the blood of the messiah is necessary in order to bring about national redemption. The idea of a tortured messiah who was resurrected three days after his death was adopted by Judaism before the birth of Jesus. The main ideas of the Jesus myth existed in Judaism," Knohl went on to say.

<snip>

... concluding that the text is describing the angel Gabriel as someone who raises from the dead the prophet leader named "Minister of ministers" three days after his death. He associates this minister with a historic figure-a Jewish leader named Shimon who declared himself king and led a failed rebellion against Herod in the year 4 B.C.E. until he was killed by Herod's army.

More:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999719.html


Oh, my...

The Christians are following the wrong Messiah!

SHIMON!

[hedgehog]

9. Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead, as opposed to being

raised by someone else. In addition, Jesus's Resurrection involved other changes sufficient to make it difficult for his followers to recognize him at first and that allowed him to appear in locked rooms, etc. Lazarus and the un-named widow's son were raised by Jesus himself before he died.

[Ian David]

10. How come, when someone dies, we pray for their immortal souls...

... but you never seem to hear a minister or hospital chaplain leading a prayer for Jesus to resurrect them?

Just like if you lose an arm or a leg, people don't usually pray for you to grow it back.

[hedgehog]

16. How come you address a two thousand year old tradition with

a snarky question?

[Ian David]

17. Because MY people are born with five thousand years worth of snark bottled-up inside. n/t

[On the Road]

6. What's Knohl is Claiming is Pretty Revolutionary

although one would think that Jesus and how Jesus was viewed by his followers grew out of Jewish ideas at the time.

Because of the uncertain provenance, the tablet has to be viewed with some suspicion, especially in light of the uncertain dates of a lot of the Dead Sea Scroll to which it's being compared.

[Ian David]

11. This is true. The scroll comes from "a friend of a friend" sort of source.

Remember a few years ago, the hoax with the coffin of Jesus' brother?

[On the Road]

14. Yes, That's Exactly What I Was Thinking

What makes it more difficult is that you can't do carbon dating of stone, although you can analyze the patina and examine the tool marks under a microscope. Most documents of this kind were written on leather or papyrus.

I don't automatically dismiss the finding. I have long thought that Jesus did not dream up his mission by himself, but was part of a community that might have written a document like this. It does seem a little convenient, though.

[ORDagnabbit]

7. For those who study history this is well known....goes all the way back to Osiris and beyond

[Bob Dobbs]

8. Correct.

The messiah meme appears in every religion with a divine representative visiting earth.

Further, the archeology of the middle east disproves the old testament at purely fiction as well.

Inerrant word of god, my ass.

[ORDagnabbit]

12. do a search on pagan christs and you'll see lots of imagry....statues, paintings, carvings

http://www.entheology.org/POCM/

[Ian David]

15. Not to mention Brian

[Occam Bandage]

13. Well, resurrection imagery is common in Egyptian and Zoroastrian cults, so no surprise there. Still,

this is quite possibly the thinnest of thinnest "suggestions" I've seen in a long time.

In the "Gabriel's vision" text there are 87 lines. Toward the end, on the 80th line, there is an unclear sentence containing the words "shloshat yamin" (three days). The next word is broken up, and when the text was first published, three dots were used in its place. However, Professor Knohl recognized it as "Hayia", which he interpreted to be the command form of the work "Hai", to live, concluding that the text is describing the angel Gabriel as someone who raises from the dead the prophet leader named "Minister of ministers" three days after his death

"Well, you see, there's this unclear sentence, but this broken-up word might be "Hayia," which might be a command form of "To live," which might mean that this Shimon guy is being commanded to live, which might mean they're being resurrected, and since it's near the phrase "three days," it might be resurrection after three days!"

Yeah, I'll pass.

[On the Road]

18. When You Read Original Documents in This Area

you would be surprised how much is based on of a few words. The state of this inscription is like a lot of the Dead Sea Scrolls -- a different interpretation of two or three phrases places some of them in an entirely different century.

It's certainly not conclusive, but even without the "arise" it's pretty interesting. I don't see a reason why they couldn't generate a list of alternate possibilities and see if any of them make sense.