Some criticisms sting, others just make you really sad.

[Pacifist Patriot]

This past Sunday I conducted a non-denominational worship service at a retirement community because they had just sacked their previous minister and were in a crunch. I'm not sure how the activity director found me but as one who serves a Unitarian Universalist congregation I think it is fair to say my theology is rather on the liberal side. I assumed non-denominational Christian, but when I arrived I learned it was non-denominational Baptist. You figure that one out.

I received a call from the activity director who reported I received mixed reviews. Quite a few in attendance loved me and made the assumption I was their new minister. (Um, no.) A number of others were extremely disappointed in my sermon. Why? Because I preached the universality of God's love and insistence upon respect for all of creation.

I explained how the book of Jonah is not a prophetic book, but a satirical farce that took the Israelites to task for lack of charity towards other tribes. More than a couple of people glared at me throughout the sermon as I outlined the textual reasons why this genre applies to Jonah and how the true message of the book is lost when not recognizing the satirical farce for what it is.

The direct quote was, "you were not hellfire and brimstone enough for their tastes."

Well I'm not certain whom they wished to see in the hellfire, but it means I was either in the presence of sadists or masochists...or both I suppose. What a sad commentary on the lack of human dignity these people have been subjected to all their lives. To be disappointed in a message that you, and all of humankind, are worthy of love. Really disheartening.

[msongs]

1. hey fellow UU. fear and hate rank high for many religions and believers nt

[The Magistrate]

2. As A Matter Of Curiousity, Ma'am....

Is your closing comment to be taken as indicating you consider persons of a sado-masochistic orientation to lack dignity as human beings, compared to persons of other sexual orientations?

[Pacifist Patriot]

3. I am not referring to sadism and masochism relative to sexuality at all.

psychological as in Fromm.

[The Magistrate]

4. It Is Always Interesting, Ma'am, To Note What Persists As Slur Among The More Enlightened

Mr. Fromm has never struck me as making a useful contribution to the subject. The things named do not exist outside the sexual sphere.

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. Well we'll have to part company on that then. I've always thought it less than useful to...

restrict the sadistic and masochistic to the realm of the sexual. Sado-masochist sexual gratification is not the same as having a sadistic or masochistic aspect of the personality though of course it is certainly possible to overlap. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. I find Fromm's book Escape from Freedom does indeed make a useful contribution to the subject. Any slurs regarding sexuality were certainly not intended and the enlightened should know the difference.

[The Magistrate]

8. Not Intending An Extended Engagement Myself, Either, Ma'am, Merely A Pointed Observation

The only reason for using loaded terms of that sort is the hope that the opprobrium they are widely held in will rub off somewhat on the target to which they are attached, and cause an audience to turn the same fish-eye upon them they would turn on some fetishist or other unlucky enough to be caught in a police spotlight or a messy divorce. The prepared line of retreat that it was really some specialized technical meaning intended, and not that, does not impress me much. In my view, if one means to indicate people are moved by a spirit of cruelty, and the desire to establish their more elevated status in a hierarchy of worth by vicarious exercise of cruelty to others, and feel they themselves can only be controlled from outside by the threat of cruelty upon their own persons, it is best to say so straight out.

"A man who says he loves his wife, and loves his daughter, and loves a good hamburger, had better mean something different each time."

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. LOL! Impressive vocabulary, but I suggest you got it backwards.

The general definition would be sadist: an enjoyment in being cruel and masochist: gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degradation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself, either as a result of one's own actions or the actions of others, esp. the tendency to seek this form of gratification.

'Tis the specialized psychiatric definition that involves sexuality.

They were loaded terms because you rendered them such, not because I did.

[jody]

14. Well done!

:thumbsup:

[The Magistrate]

15. Your General; Definition, Ma'am, Is The Sexual One

And unfortunately for what you conceive to be your point, there really is no other definition of the terms. Some psychological thought attempts to extend these sexual patterns to explain patterns of human behavior that are not obviously sexual, but that tendency exists in that discipline with all forms of sexuality, and its practitioners also frequently rope sado-masochism in with basic heterosexuality. Sixty years ago any psychological discussion of 'normal' female sexuality would have viewed this as necessarily containing a masochistic component, and viewed 'normal' male sexuality as necessarily containing a sadistic component. Of course, neither of these words existed before the nineteenth century, and von Sacher-Masoch was a male, and de Sade frequently had his valet scourge and sodomize him. Before the words came into existence, it was simply a recognized fact that many found cruelty, dealt or inflicted, sexually arousing. Many perfectly everyday elements of life in earlier cultures and societies incorporated postures and acts that would today be called sado-masochistic, and seldom be seen outside fetish clubs. Church life in Christendom was rife with such, and the language of the Scriptures teems with sado-masochistic imagery and metaphor, often with a highly sexualized charge.

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. I know you don't mean to be amusing, but you are funny as hell.

There really is absolutely no point in continuing this discussion. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but we're just never going to agree on this. I do appreciate your attempts to persuade however. Cheers.

[The Magistrate]

17. You Certainly Have Sufficient Presumptuousness, Ma'am, To Hold A Clerical Appointment....

Amusing the reader is always a part of my purpose; you are incapable of causing me the slightest disappointment; education of persons who read this, not persuasion of you to my view, is my root intent in this exchange.

The problem you have here is that you got sloppy in your use of loaded language, that you employed to indicate the contempt in which you hold a group of people you feel yourself superior to. You employed terms you took for granted any reader would be moved by to share your contempt for the persons so labeled, and thus find himself or herself, without giving it much thought, aligning with your view that those you spoke of are lesser creatures than you. In doing so, you employed terms and referenced human behaviors that you are evidently ignorant of, and have never given much thought to, beyond your having long accepted them as categorizing persons to whom they are applied as inferior in social or personal development, at least by comparison to you. A quirk of chance led me to read your comment, and a quirk of mood led me to call you on it, and your subsequent comments, none of which has sensibly engaged the point being pressed, have provided me sufficient amusement to sustain a mild interest in the matter against the many other claims on my attentions and time at present....

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. Ouch! That hurt.

Again, the terms are loaded because you took them as such, not because of standard usage.

I will continue to maintain that if you were to tell someone that Mr. X is a sadist they will assume you mean he is a cruel person, not that he needs to inflict pain in order to be sexually aroused or satisfied. Likewise if you were to assert that Ms. Y is a masochist they will assume you mean she likes to play the martyr and always wants to be miserable, not that she requires a beating in order to orgasm.

Yes, I do take pity on people who feel the need to be threatened with the eternal damnation of hellfire and brimstone. It's incredibly sad to me. I can't help that.

I see your opinion of clergy brought you into the discussion with a bias. That is a shame, but explains a great deal. Cheers.

[The Magistrate]

20. It Was Meant To Sting a Little, Ma'am: Good To Have The Confirmation

And yet you continue to insist on a distinction that does not really exist as your means of defense. The terms are loaded because they refer to forms of sexual gratification that are widely disapproved of, and hence they are used to both indicate disapproval, and to rally an audience to share the speaker's disapproval without putting them to the trouble of thinking much about it. When this is done by a speaker in full awareness he or she is doing this, that person is at least entitled to a degree of respect as a competent practitioner of the propagandist's art; when it is done by a speaker to save the bother of clearly expressing what his or her actual feelings are regarding the cruelty and wrong at the bottom of 'hellfire and brimstone' doctrines, it is simply an unfortunate spectacle of sloppiness and laziness.

'Hellfire and brimstone' doctrines serve several purposes, and would neither have arisen nor persisted so strongly if they did not. One of these purposes, the one which most believers on them will freely acknowledge, is that many people feel powerless before their own impulses to acts they themselves believe to be wrong or evil. In order to maintain their own behavior on lines that they approve of as right or good, they feel they need support of something outside themselves to back up their own impulses towards right and good, which they feel to be weaker than their impulses in the other direction. The prospect of future punishment for doing wrong or evil provides this, and is in many, many forms one of the basic constituents of all social and cultural systems. Another purpose, one which believers on these doctrines will typically not be so forthright in acknowledging, is the inculcation of a feeling of superiority in the 'good' believer over the rest of humanity, which will be subject to such appalling punishments that the 'good' believer will not undergo. For punishment always diminishes, always renders less than human, always turns from human to mere object, those it is inflicted on. Because this is actually, for lack of a better phrasing's availability, the inculcation of the sin of spiritual pride on a colossal scale, it is no wonder believers on the doctrine are seldom inclined to acknowledge, or even face this, though it is quite understandable that people who feel powerless against themselves, and who have often been driven by events of their lives and their perceived place in the society they are part of, to feel powerless in many areas, would seek to feed on such an exalted state as consolation for the many bruises on their feelings they sport. But this latter element is hardly unique to 'hellfire and brimstone' doctrines: a great deal of the attraction of religious beliefs is that they provide occasions for believers to experience the dark and heady joys of spiritual pride without acknowledgment they are doing so.

[Pacifist Patriot]

21. I bow to a superior intelligence.

Albeit one on which sarcasm seems to be utterly lost. ;)

Sorry I can't engage you more. It seems like it might actually become an interesting discussion about the efficacy of sin soaked doctrines but your reluctance to move beyond the sexual aspect of my original terminology leaves me cold. That and I have a date with my husband for which I absolutely must get ready.

[The Magistrate]

22. Sarcasm Frequently Does Have Difficulty Finding Its Way Home, Ma'am

It is often found wandering the sidewalks, puzzling at the unfamiliar street signs, squinting at the numbers on strange houses, and hoping for a comforting hand to hold that might show it its way....

Refraining from employment of sexual terms as tools of easy disparagement would be the simplest way of avoiding the difficulty you have expressed with my willingness to take the plain meanings of words in English and stick to this as what your use of them intended to convey.

If you feel the exchange promises interest in other directions, by all means explore them at leisure. My weekend promises well, and will leave me little time for engagement here, but you can find me at the stand a few days hence, should you wish.

"It is odd the doctrine of Original Sin finds so little favor in the modern age, as it is perhaps the one item of Christian dogma susceptible of empirical proof."

[bananas]

24. You sound like the judge who thought "black hole" was a racist remark

In the real world, common usage of the terms "sadism" and "masochism" is as Pacifist Patriot described.

[The Magistrate]

25. Happy To Take On All Comers, Sir, If You Really Want To Try This On....

The terms originated as sexual designations; their expansion into 'general usage' is rooted in their sexual significance, and derives its force as disparaging description from the opprobrium with which those patterns of sexual gratification are wildly regarded. No one calls someone a sadist or a masochist with the intent of paying a compliment: the terms are almost never used as mere neutral descriptors. Even in the more specialized psychiatric jargons of 'personality types', the personalities indicated by such descriptors are viewed as less than optimum, and inferior to whatever the employer of the jargon regards as fully realized or fully developed personalities.

Again, it amuses me to see what persons who view themselves as enlightened will cling to as useable slur, and the lengths to which they will go to defend it....

[bananas]

26. Now you sound like a porn movie

"Happy To Take On All Comers, Sir, If You Really Want To Try This On...."

[The Magistrate]

27. What An Odd Mind You Seem To Have, Sir....

"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd."

[dbonds]

28. Are you saying he added a sexual connotation to something that had a different meaning?

The irony.

[The Magistrate]

29. When The Opening Shot Is To Call Me An Idiot, Ma'am, And The Second To Call Me A Pornographer

Certain questions naturally arise, and an answer suggests itself....

Would you care to defend the proposition that when two high school kids looking at a third doing something they think little of, break out with, "God, that's so gay!" that they are doing this without the slightest reference to homosexuality, and are not invoking the reasonably wide-spread distaste for same in our society?

[dbonds]

30. To the casual observer...

it looked like you made the opening shot by insisting your definition was the only definition, and therefor you found the phrase offensive and warned the OP from not doing that again (was that as a moderator or DU poster?). I think you are mistaken in that being the only definition, there are many forms of S&M behavior which includes the sexual definition - although I would never call it an orientation as it is a type of behavior and not to whom you are attracted.

On the use of 'gay' by kids, I have confronted that very issue with some of my nieces and nephews and they really weren't using as a sexual slur. They just used it pejoratively as their peer groups do. And I remember back to high school where we would call people dildo's and have not the slightest sexual intent, it was just a slur. My nieces and nephews did stop using 'gay' around me though after that.

I don't think the two situations are analogous though, in fact they are polar opposites. One is taking a sexual slang 'gay' and using it as a slur, the other is taking a behavioral disorder and loading to mean only sexual things.

I do agree the porno remark was over the top, but it was funny in context because there was so much pretentiousness in your instance that you had the only definition.

[The Magistrate]

31. So You Consider Sado-Masochism A Behavioral Disorder, Ma'am?

Yet somehow this manages to co-exist with a willingness to claim describing persons as "a roomful of sadists or masochists or both" is not the employment of a slur, and not an attempt to associatiate a disliked thing with people one wishes others to share one's dislike of. That is a suppleness of mind quite beyond my poor mental powers to even approximate....

For the rest, there is really not much to engage, because what you have said does not even display the minimal grasp of the subject required to say something touching on it that can even be described as wrong. It is not a question of my claiming to have 'the only definition': the words are words in English that have accurate definitions, which are quite familiar to me and evidently strange as Maldorer to you. The terms employed by Ms. P.P., and those employed by the referenced children, carry their charge, and serve as insult, whether the persons employing them express awareness of their root meanings or not. It is a very simple pont, so simple that refusal to grasp it can only be an indication other interests are at work. The most probable one is that persons using them, and defending them, are of the "I am a good person, therefore whatever I do is good" school of self-imaging. That is a view as dangerous as it is seductive, and one that is fatal to self-awareness, and the capacity to behave responsibly.

[Meshuga]

32. The misunderstanding

Hi The Magistrate,

I think you have a point since the term masochist is derived from Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch's private life so it had its original sexual connotations. But since people are not aware of the origin of the word and since it is also used in a "non-sexual" connotation (for those who derive pleasure from receiving pain) I understand the usage without ill intention.

With that said I don't think it was the OP intention to criticize or question the dignity of "persons of a sado-masochistic orientation". In my own perception, Pacifist Patriot's insistence on using the "slur" was a reaction to the way you questioned her intentions, thus resulting in a personal battle instead of an educational exchange.

But you do have a point and the analogy you presented with the usage of the word "gay" makes your point clear. One can argue that the usage of the word "gay" that you presented has nothing to do with homosexuals but when learning that the usage derives from a hateful application of the word "gay" one can only cringe when hearing it in its newest "non-homosexual" context. Therefore I totally understand your complaint.

[The Magistrate]

35. You Have Taken Part Of My Point, Sir, But Not All Of It

Actions demonstrate intent. When someone employs a slur, someone intends to demean. Whether one looks down on others in frankly acknowledged contempt, or disguises contempt in raiments of pity and sorrow, one is still laying claim to superiority, and ascribing inferiority to others. Anyone who knows me will be aware that it takes a great deal to put me in sympathy with a churchful of Baptists, and it surprises none more than myself that the feat has been managed on the morning of 11 July, 2008....

That being said, Sir, your comments are appreciated, for you have shown more awareness of what is actually going on here than anyone else, and have clearly given the matter some thought, rather than simply indulged in unthinking reaction of exactly the sort the employment of such slurs is designed and intended to lead an audience into.

[bananas]

33. Here are some accurate definitions

If you didn't spend all your time with perverts, maybe you'd be aware of the common non-sexual usage of the terms.

Note in particular wiktionary definition #5:
"5. (In general use) deliberate cruelty either mental or physical also applicable to the cruelty inflicted upon animals whether for sexual gratification or not."

sadism (uncountable)
1. (mainly psychiatric) the enjoyment of inflicting pain
2. achievement of sexual gratification by inflicting pain on others
3. gaining sexual excitement and satisfaction by watching pain inflicted by others on their victims
4. a morbid form of enjoyment achieved by acting cruel to another, or others.
5. (In general use) deliberate cruelty either mental or physical also applicable to the cruelty inflicted upon animals whether for sexual gratification or not.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sadism

sa·dism (sdzm, sdz-)
n.
1. The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others.
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty.
3. Extreme cruelty.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sadist

sadism

1: a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object) — compare masochism
2 a: delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sadism

Sadistic personality disorder is a personality disorder which only appeared in the revised third edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III-R).<1> The current DSM-IV-TR does not include the category.Contents
1 DSM III-R criteria
2 See also
3 External links
4 Notes



DSM III-R criteria

Sadistic personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of cruel, demeaning, and aggressive behavior, beginning by early adulthood, as indicated by the repeated occurrence of at least four of the following:
Has used physical cruelty or violence for the purpose of establishing dominance in a relationship (not merely to achieve some noninterpersonal goal, such as striking someone in order to rob him/her).
Humiliates or demeans people in the presence of others.
Has treated or disciplined someone under his/her control unusually harshly.
Is amused by, or takes pleasure in, the psychological or physical suffering of others (including animals).
Has lied for the purpose of harming or inflicting pain on others (not merely to achieve some other goal).
Gets other people to do what he/she wants by frightening them (through intimidation or even terror).
Restricts the autonomy of people with whom he or she has a close relationship, e.g., will not let spouse leave the house unaccompanied or permit teenage daughter to attend social functions.
Is fascinated by violence, weapons, injury, or torture.

The behavior has not been directed toward only one person (e.g., spouse, one child) and has not been solely for the purpose of sexual arousal (as in sexual sadism).


See also
Antisocial personality disorder
Malignant narcissism
Psychopathy
Sadism and masochism
Sadism and masochism as medical terms
Zoosadism


External links
Psychological Profile of Washington, D.C.-Area Sniper provides some excellent theoretical descriptions of the sadistic personality.
PTypes - Sadistic Personality Disorder
- Institute for Advanced Studies in Personality & Psychology Trait details & visual reference


Notes
^ Hucker, Stephen J. Sadistic Personality Disorder
Categories: Personality disorders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder

[The Magistrate]

34. You May Not Be Aware How Dictionaries Work, Sir

The definitions are listed in order of precedence, with the most common understandings first, the least common last. All you have done is confirm my knowledge of common usage of a word in English. That was hardly necessary, of course, because my grasp of the native tongue is pretty good, and you deserve, and will receive, no thanks for it. The one trailing definition in the 'wiki' entry is meanigless (most 'wiki' entries are), since it is so obviously derivative from the actual accepted meanings that it could not exst without reference to them, and does not differ in any appreciable degree from them. The final item you cite is not current, and had only a brief existence, far from sufficient to estanblish it as anything but a highly specialized, and presently specious, usage.

The amusing element of your response is that my willingness to enter upon a plain discussion of a sexual behavior moves you to accuse me of being a pervert. That, Sir, says a great deal about you, and nothing at all about me. It is a frank and open confession on your part that you are incapable of discussing much of anything beyond the day's weather in a serious and civil manner, and are fully aware that is the case. It also suggests strongly that you find sexuality a distressing and frightening topic, one which makes you very uncomfortable. It would be unkind for me to speculate on why this is, about what unresolved issues of behavior and self-image and conflicted up-bringing might be at the root of that, but though your behavior certainly does not warrant the slightest degree of kindness from me, it remains the courteous and proper course on my part to exercise it.

[knitter4democracy]

37. Here's the OED, then.

Sadism:

Enthusiasm for inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others; spec. a psychological disorder characterized by sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviour involving the subjection of another person to pain, humiliation, bondage, etc.

1818 T. MOORE Jrnl. 30 Nov. (1983) I. 94 There is at present a society of Debaucheries in Paris founded upon the principles contained in Justine.., which they call Sadism. 1888 Pall Mall Gaz. 10 Sept. 4/2 Sadism..is happily so strange to the majority of our people. 1892 C. G. CHADDOCK tr. R. von Krafft-Ebing Psychopathia Sexualis iii. 87 There are individuals for whom,..all that is connected with death and suffering has a mysterious attraction... Still, this is not sadism, as long as no sexual element enters into consciousness. 1897 Lancet 13 Nov. 1263/2 Crimes committed by people afflicted with what is technically known as ‘sadism’. 1900 Times 15 Nov. 3/6 That had led the medical faculty to suppose that the murderer was a man of perverse instincts, and therefore, that this was a fresh instance of fetishism or sadism. 1920 G. S. HALL tr. S. Freud Gen. Introd. Psychoanal. xxi. 284 Some of the components of the sex instincts have had an object from the very beginning and hold fast to it; such are the instinct to mastery (sadism), curiosity, and the impulse to watch. 1937 H. G. WELLS Brynhild vii. 116 He..with an expression of impish sadism..prodded his sceptre into young Bates. 1943 H. READ Politics of Unpolitical ii. 18 Sadism is the unconscious impulse to acquire unrestricted power over another person, and to test the fullness of this power by destroying that other person. 1945 G. JOHNSON in T. A. Kirby & H. B. Woolf Philologica (1949) 322 Perhaps it is sheer sadism, but this reviewer cannot help but wish that Mr. Daniels had put into his book a little more arsenic and a little less old lace. 1974 I. BIEBER in S. Arieti Amer. Handbk. Psychiatry III. xv. 318/2 In my view sadism is a maladaptive response to threat; it is a paranoid constellation in which the victim is a personified representative of a variety of irrationally perceived threats. 2002 N. LEBRECHT Song of Names v. 96 Caning and sadism ceased; the playground bullies, deprived of adult role-models, turned civilised and considerate.

http://dictionary.oed.com.libproxy.library.wmich.edu/cgi/entry/50211651

masochism:

The urge to derive pleasure, esp. sexual gratification, from one's own pain or humiliation; the pursuit of such pleasure. Also in weakened sense: deliberate pursuit of or enthusiasm for an activity that appears to be painful, frustrating, or tedious. Cf. SADISM n., SADOMASOCHISM n.

1892 C. G. CHADDOCK tr. R. von Krafft-Ebing Psychopathia Sexualis iii. 89 By masochism I understand a peculiar perversion of the psychical vita sexualis, in which the individual affected, in sexual feeling and thought, is controlled by the idea of being completely and unconditionally subject to the will of a person of the opposite sex; of being treated by this person as by a master,humiliated and abused. 1899 T. C. ALLBUTT Syst. Med. VIII. 196 with predominant perversion of moral and sexual nature (for example, moral insanity, uranism, masochism, etc.). 1921 R. C. BENCHLEY Of All Things xix. 181 It contains five hundred pages of mental masochism, in which the author tortures himself for not getting anywhere in his brain processes. 1930 W. R. INGE Christian Ethics iii. 109 Modern psychology has invented the word masochism for that perversion of the sex-instinct which takes the form of self-torture. 1958 Times 9 Aug. 7/7 Strange though the urgent masochism of the milk round may seem, that is how the great majority of Americans still see us. 1974 Listener 21 Nov. 679 That Johnson's masochism did not stop at fantasy seems to be indicated by..entries in Mrs Thrale's diary. 1992 Outdoor Action (BNC) July 15 There's plenty to do close at hand when the weather turns moorland expeditions into exercises in masochism.

http://dictionary.oed.com.libproxy.library.wmich.edu/cgi/entry/00302853?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=masochism&first=1&max_to_show=10

I believe it clear from here that the definition does not always have a sexual connotation. Look at the last two references: definitely not sexual and not obvious slams at those who partake in S&M, either. The history of the words suggests that the sexual connotation is a massive part of the word's original meaning but that it's lessened over time.

[skepticscott]

38. Very flowery

But unfortunately, rhetorical polish does not by itself constitute either argument or evidence. You've been presented with hard evidence both from people who study language and usage and from people who define psychological disorders that the terms sadist and masochist have accepted (even if not primary) meanings and usages that are not psychosexual in nature. You only response was to insubstantially dismiss the dictionary entries and ignore the DSM, while repeating the same unsupported conviction that they can't have been meant any other way. Even if the original meaning of those words had a sexual basis, the meaning and usage of words changes or expands all the time, and new meanings are in no way rendered invalid by being new, nor is one user's employment of a less common meaning invalidated by there being a more common one.

And were you able to look inside the minds of the OP and responders to determine that these terms could not possibly have been meant or taken in any sense other than sexual? I think not, since I certainly didn't take them that way. That you think I or anyone else should or must is, frankly, irrelevant.

[The Magistrate]

39. No One Has Presented Me With Any Evidence That Contradicts My Position, Sir

Every person who has claimed to do so has only presented evidence that buttresses it.

Two things stand out from the exchange.

First, the very mention of sado-masochism in a manner that is not condemnatory makes a number of people nervous to the point of active distress, rousing them to amusing excesses of denial and even personal insult.

Second, people who use these terms as slurs, to take a propagandist's benefit from the general disfavor in which they know the sexual orientations they refer to are held, have a hard time reconciling that low rhetorical practice with their self-image as paragons of enlightenment, and seem to resent being called on it by a person who is well aware of how the propagandist's art is practiced, and accustomed to viewing people as resonible for what they actually do, not what they like to imagine they are doing.

"Still, as a base of operations, you cannot beat a fucking saloon!"

[knitter4democracy]

40. Everyone here has been respectful of those who practice S&M.

I've seen no nervousness or distress but instead debate and questioning of your base assertion.

I don't personally tend to use sadism or masochism as a slur or insult, mostly because I'm uncomfortable with slurs and insults that use comparison as their base. That said, I don't think every single use of the terms is automatically an insult. Considering the OED definition, it seems clear that there's more than one connotation to the word (just as gay can mean happy and joyful and queer can mean feeling odd or slightly ill). Why can't all connotations be used if they're there?

[The Magistrate]

42. Actually, Ma'am, That Is Not An Accurate Description Of What Has Gone On Here

The terms were introduced into the discussion as a slur, to indicate a lesser state of development and dignity of a group of retired Baptists, relative to the state of enlightenment achieved by a Unitarian Universalist minister. Subsequent comments have been in support of that usage, and have indeed displayed in many instances a great degree of nervousnss and distress with the subject. There is no need to repeat my points, regarding what necessarily follows from the use of terms as slurs, as they have been adequately made above.

[knitter4democracy]

44. I went back and re-read the OP.

I think the poster's point was that those residents were upset at not hearing a sermon that made them feel bad or feel good that others were feeling bad and that she was upset and concerned that that was what they wanted from a sermon. I hear frustration in her tone and some sadness, not the superiority and self-congratulation you seem to find there.

The subsequent posts have been citing evidence that the terms have multiple meanings, not all of which are sexual. Some have been surprised at your tone and how you have refused to take any evidence posted here into account, and that seems to be their issue more than the terms themselves.

Oh, and the last time I was called "ma'am" was when I taught high school. It is odd to see it here. Why do you use gender-based titles when posting a reply?

[Zebedeo]

45. The OP used "sadists" and "masochists" as terms of derision

The OP stated:

"I was either in the presence of sadists or masochists...or both I suppose. What a sad commentary on the lack of human dignity these people have been subjected to all their lives."

The Magistrate is 100% correct in his assessment of the OP's conduct and intent. The OP used the words as slurs. Whether the OP intended to accuse the parishioners to whom she had just preached of engaging in sadistic or masochistic sexual practices is beside the point. The point of the OP was to denigrate the parishioners by using terms to describe them that were calculated to encourage others reading her post to regard the parishioners as lacking in "human dignity." The method to accomplish this purpose was to employ terms that the OP assumed would carry the requisite opprobrium.

The OP was embarrassed to be called on her bigotry by the Magistrate, and has responded with pronounced defensiveness.

[knitter4democracy]

46. Well, I have a feeling she won't again.

Life is a learning curve, that's for sure.

[dbonds]

48. Is this satire? you have to be kidding.

No one can think a sadist is thing but a slur. People that enjoy the pain of others is not a good type of person.

[The Magistrate]

52. You Must Be About As Surprised As Me, Mr. Zebedeo, To Find Us On The Same Side Of A Scrap Here

It has been quite a while since our paths have crossed. How are things with you, Sir?

[skepticscott]

41. Nice try

but you essentially said nothing. And trying to slam and discredit people with pop-psychiatric analysis based on a few lines they've written really is the last refuge of the deeply wrong.

[The Magistrate]

43. Kitty Is Bored, Sir: Dangling That Tired Old Bit Of String Just Will Not Do

You are actually going to have to open a can of tuna fish if you wish to compete with the bird on the windowsill across the courtyard....

[SidneyCarton]

47. Fair enough sir,

I do not seek an argument here, but for the sake of my own enlightenment I would like to know how you would call an individual who delights in cruelty and the causing of pain for reasons other than sexual pleasure?

[The Magistrate]

50. Cruel, Sir, Is A Perfectly Serviceable Descriptive Term For That

Sadist is employed to provide a frisson of sexualized distaste. It is rather like the difference between calling a man weak or cowardly, and employing the vernacular for female genitalia to indicate he is weak and cowardly.

No doubt persons who take a delight in real cruelty deserve disparagement, but the persons being addressed as sadists and masochist in the O.P. were simply a congregation of elderly persons who missed their expected weekly dose of preaching in the style current in their youth, which to my mind hardly warrants sexualized denigration.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

49. I disagree.

In general, I think that the word sadist is used to refer to anyone who likes hurting other people or making them suffer, and the word masochist to anyone who likes or seeks out suffering themself.

So in a sense, sexual sadism and masochism don't actually fit that usage (although it wouldn't surprise me if they were the original, more correct usage) - inflicting or receiving physical pain because you like it isn't quite the same as liking suffering.

So in answer to your original question, I would say that sadists in the more usual (albeit probably techically incorrect) sense are automatically wicked people, and that masochists in that sense are severely screwed up and need help.

I'd also say that sexual sadism and masochism are even more undignified than most other sexual practices, but that's possibly not using "dignified" in quite the same sense you were.

[The Magistrate]

51. As Has Consistently Been The Case Here, Sir, Your Proclaimed Disagreement Only Supports My Point

The terms are used as slurs, and take on the quality of slurs because they invoke a sexual orientation is widely disapproved of. Indeed, you deserve some credit for at least forthrightly announcing you share that disapproval.

[Hannah Bell]

53. one can behave cruelly to others without enjoying it.

& one can receive pain w/o enjoying it.

sadist & masochist are the words that distinguish this aspect.

i notice you offered no close synonym for desiring to receive pain. cause there isn't one.

but religion has a history of inflicting pain on sinners (self or other) as a positive but not overtly sexual practice.

[The Magistrate]

54. Do You Really Think So, Ma'am?

Sadist and masochist are the words that indicate sexual gratification through giving or receiving pain, not words that indicate lack of it when doing either.

The idea that various 'mortifications of the flesh' conducted under religious auspices are absent sexual gratifications is nonesense; the gratifications may be denied or go unacknowledged, but that is a different thing than absence.

[Hannah Bell]

58. synonym for taking (non-sexual) pleasure in receiving pain?

waiting

[The Magistrate]

59. Waiting For What, Ma'am?

Do you imagine asking a question imposes on someone else any obligation to answer it? Silence has many uses, and can be eloquent in its own right....

The fact is that what you are asking for does not exist, and that is because pain, by definition, is not enjoyed. Any seeking out of pain, or even willing endurance of pain, is done with countervailing gratification in mind. A foolish lad enduring a fraternity hazing, for example, does so for the gain of in-group status, on one level, though he is certainly engaged as he does so in a sado-masochistic ritual. But unless he is actually a masochist, he in no sense enjoys the pain, he merely conceives it to be worth being a Brother in the organization. It is true enough that pain pushed to certain degrees can trigger body and brain chemistry changes reminiscent of an opiate intoxication, and there is a body of thought which holds that this lies at the root of much sado-masochistic practice. Having done a good deal of distance running in my younger days, it is possible for me to testify that there is definitely something to the 'runner's high', which is certainly related to this, in which the pain of stressed and fatigued muscles disappears into a pleasant exaltation that is much missed when it passes on in repose, and frequently replaced with a good deal of soreness and stiffness while racked out on the couch.

You have made the claim specifically that religions often call for believers to suffer, and do this regarding the pain as a positive thing in itself. Actual examination of such practices reveals this as nonsense. Certainly in the Christian tradition, such practices, outside the specialized field of undergoing martyrdom, are always associated with celibacy, either self-mortifications by celibates, or mortifications dealt out to others by celibate clergy as means of penance. Celibacy, in the voluntary forms adopted by clergy in the Christian tradition, rooted in profound distaste for the female and beyond that for the material as opposed to the spiritual for which the female serves as the ultimate symbol, is a severe sexual disorder, and to pretend that the suffering or infliction of pain in a context defined by that disorder is not accompanied by sexual frisson is not worth serious consideration.

[Hannah Bell]

60. there is no synonym, point made.

language "means" what people mean it to mean, & if i call someone a masochist, most non-pedants know i'm not talking about their sexual practice.

[The Magistrate]

61. No, Ma'am, What Anyone Conversant With English Knows

Is that you are describing them with a term you intend to cast them in a demeaning light as persons enmeshed in an inferior state of development typified by a widely reviled sexual perversion. But then, you already knew that....

[Hannah Bell]

62. many folk conversant with english think differently.

so your statement is false.

language means what people mean it to mean & take it to mean.

[The Magistrate]

64. That Matter, Ma'am, Has Been Settld By A Higher Authority....

Humpty Dumpty took the book, and looked at it carefully. `That seems to be done right -- ' he began.

`You're holding it upside down!' Alice interrupted.

`To be sure I was!' Humpty Dumpty said gaily, as she turned it round for him. `I thought it looked a little queer. As I was saying, that seems to be done right -- though I haven't time to look it over thoroughly just now -- and that shows that there are three hundred and sixty-four days when you might get un-birthday presents -- '

`Certainly,' said Alice.

`And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs, they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

`Would you tell me, please,' said Alice `what that means?`

`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

`That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.'

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. I think you're placing too much importance on the sexual uses of the word.

I think that the reason sadism is used as a "slur" is not because it evokes the sexual practice (which, while I consider it undignified, I don't disapprove of - just because something is undignified doesn't mean it's immoral; all sex is undignified), but because sadism in the more-usually-used, non-sexual sense is objectively wicked.

When most people talk about sadism most of the time, they're not thinking about sexual practices at all, they're talking about taking pleasure in the suffering of others.

I'm not convinced "slur" is a good way of describing calling someone a sadist - a slur implies something less directly and explicitly critical. You wouldn't call calling someone a murderer a "slur", I think.

[The Magistrate]

56. This Entire Exchange, Sir, Is Like Watching People Slap Themselves In The Face

Every time people claim to be refuting my points, they actually do nothing but reinforce them.

The main point goes almost wholly unengaged. That point is that the O.P. employed denigrating slurs against a group of elderly Baptists she had occasion to preach to, because they were not appreciative of her greater enlightenment relative to their unfortunate and benighted state of understanding of the Gospels. That is discourteous, and beneath the standard one would expect of a Unitarian Universalist minister.

The terms used were slurs that derive their weight from roots in sexual orientations that are widely viewed with great disfavor. They would have no charge of disparagement without those roots, and whenever those terms are used, those roots are called to mind, and the charge of disfavor on those roots is invoked, and invoked to sweep the auditor along in a tide of emotional reaction to share a dislike and distaste the speaker feels, without having to be much bothered with thought on the matter. People who deny this is the case do so because they do not feel comfortable acknowledging employment of the propagandist's art by themselves, or by persons they side with or otherwise feel some affinity with. In some instances this discomfort has clearly extended to an inability to face speaking of the sexual connotations contained in these terms in a manner that does not express great distaste for them, but rather regards them with neutrality as phenomena of human behavior that one can expect to encounter on occasion, and resulted in attempts to relieve that distress by indulgence in sexualized insult towards me.

All in all, a fascinating exercise....

"People are fucking people, and that is fucked up!"

[LiberalEsto]

5. Another UU here

You've accomplished a great deal!

You've planted a seed in some closed minds. Far too many folks go through life never hearing an alternative viewpoint. Even if they vehemently disagree with what you said, it gives them something to chew on.
Maybe some will grow more tolerant and accepting of others.

One of my favorite quotes is from John Murray, the founder of organized American Universalism.

"Go out into the highways and byways.
Give the people something of your new vision.

You may possess a small light,
but uncover it, let it shine.
Use it in order to bring more light and understanding to the hearts and minds of men and women.

Give them not hell, but hope and courage,
Preach the kindness and everlasting love of God"


It seems to me that that's exactly what you did.

[bperci108]

7. I have never known a Baptist....

whose love of schadenfreude didn't exceed all other considerations as far as religious belief went.





IMHO, the only real problem with Baptists is that they aren't held under nearly long enough... :evilgrin:

[Critters2]

11. I have. Don't generalize about Baptists.

Jefferson's promise of a wall of separation between church and state was a response to the Danbury BAPTIST Association--a group of Baptist pastors who had written him with concerns about religious freedom. They were pleased with his response.

Rhode Island, a Baptist colony, guaranteed freedom of conscience--as a tenet of its Baptist faith--when most other colonies still had state churches and religious tests for public office.

[Pacifist Patriot]

12. If it weren't for Baptists I wouldn't have this glorious life of mine.

Though I have to admit I do have a cousin or two that act like they were held under for too long. ;)

[Critters2]

13. I attended a Baptist/UCC seminary, and my mentor and most important theological influence,

S. Mark Heim, is an American Baptist. Like you, I have reason to be grateful for Baptists. My crazy cousins are Christian Church/Churches of Christ--and may also have been oxygen-deprived! :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. And the American Baptist Church (as opposed to the Southern Baptist or

the Free Will Baptist or the Conservative Baptist church) is liberal on social issues.

But I think that in the case of your audience, it may not be so much hatred at work as fear.

They've been told all their lives that one unrepented misstep can send them to hell. If some of them have been raised really strictly, even listening to the "wrong" type of preacher can be a sin. If they feel that they're close enough to death to see it on the horizon, they may be trying desperately to avoid the "sin" of agreeing with someone who is not hellfire and brimstone.

[bperci108]

23. Alas...

It was all meant in good humor. :hi:

And I agree, there are indeed some good Baptists out there, like Citizen Carter. He's a wonderful example of someone who lives his beliefs, rather than just shouting to the world how pious he is.

I don't doubt that if that reforming rabbi dude from ancient Nazareth was walking around today he would recognize his ideas in 'ol Jimmy.

Sad that such as these are so outnumbered by the knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers who are completely obsessed with others' sexuality or other trivial matters.... :evilfrown:

[Critters2]

10. Thre's no way in hell you can get hellfire and brimstone from Jonah.

There just isn't. Yeah, my Girardian friends can point, accurately, I think, to scapegoating elements, but ultimately, the body of the work is just what you preached. I don't even see how a "non-denominational Baptist" could preach it any other way.

The complaints were from people who believe God joins them in scapegoating others, in committing violence. When they don't hear that, when they hear the truth about God, their violent side gets its back up. This is bound to happen, and pretty much serves as proof that you were getting it right. Sad though that is. All we can do is continue to preach justice, kindness, and peace.

As Jesus said "that is what their ancestors did to the prophets." You done good, PP!

[cyborg_jim]

36. You did not give them their expected Two Minute Hate

[Warpy]

57. "Christians" who groove on the myth and neglect the teachings

always make me sad and a little sick to my stomach. It's always sad when people so thoroughly miss the point and it's sickening to see people use the man who taught the Beatitudes as an excuse to hate.

[MikeH]

63. I am sorry about your experience

The people who were disappointed in your sermon certainly have a very unenlightened conception of God.

Perhaps, as was said upthread, you might have planted a seed in some closed minds.