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'Moderate' responses to 'evangelical atheism' all sound alike: Smug. Self-righteous. Way off-base.

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:11 PM
Original message
'Moderate' responses to 'evangelical atheism' all sound alike: Smug. Self-righteous. Way off-base.
Case in point, this self-congratulatory mild-mannered screed by someone named Roger Scruton, who can't seem to see his pathetic anthropocentric provincialism any better than the most strident fundamentalist.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2871,n,n

There are two reasons why people start shouting at their opponents: one is that they think the opponent is so strong that every weapon must be used against him; the other is that they think their own case so weak that it has to be fortified by noise. Both these motives can be observed in the evangelical atheists. They seriously believe that religion is a danger, leading people into excesses of enthusiasm which, precisely because they are inspired by irrational beliefs, cannot be countered by rational argument. We have had plenty of proof of this from the Islamists; but that proof, the atheists tell us, is only the latest in a long history of massacres and torments, which – in the scientific perspective – might reasonably be called the pre-history of mankind. The Enlightenment promised to inaugurate another era, in which reason would be sovereign, providing an instrument of peace that all could employ. In the eyes of the evangelical atheists, however, this promise was not fulfilled. In their view of things, neither Judaism nor Christianity absorbed the Enlightenment even if, in a certain measure, they inspired it. All faiths, to the atheists, have remained in the condition of Islam today: rooted in dogmas that cannot be safely questioned. Believing this, they work themselves into a lather of vituperation against ordinary believers, including those believers who have come to religion in search of an instrument of peace, and who regard their faith as an exhortation to love their neighbour, even their belligerent atheist neighbour, as themselves.

At the same time, the atheists are reacting to the weakness of their case. Dawkins and Hitchens are adamant that the scientific worldview has entirely undermined the premises of religion and that only ignorance can explain the persistence of faith. But what exactly does modern science tell us, and just where does it conflict with the premises of religious belief? According to Dawkins (and Hitchens follows him in this), human beings are 'survival machines' in the service of their genes. We are, so to speak, by-products of a process that is entirely indifferent to our well-being, machines developed by our genetic material in order to further its reproductive goal. Genes themselves are complex molecules, put together in accordance with the laws of chemistry, from material made available in the primordial soup that once boiled on the surface of our planet. How it happened is not yet known: perhaps electrical discharges caused nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms to link together in appropriate chains, until finally one of them achieved that remarkable feature, of encoding the instructions for its own reproduction. Science may one day be able to answer the question how this occurred. But it is science, not religion, that will answer it.

As for the existence of a planet in which the elements abound in the quantities observed on planet earth, such a thing is again to be explained by science – though the science of astrophysics rather than the science of biology. The existence of the earth is part of a great unfolding process, which may or may not have begun with a Big Bang, and which contains many mysteries that physicists explore with ever increasing astonishment. Astrophysics has raised as many questions as it has answered. But they are scientific questions, to be solved by discovering the laws of motion that govern the observable changes at every level of the physical world, from galaxy to supernova, and from black hole to quark. The mystery that confronts us as we gaze upwards at the Milky Way, knowing that the myriad stars responsible for that smear of light are merely stars of a single galaxy, the galaxy that contains us, and that beyond its boundaries a myriad other galaxies slowly turn in space, some dying, some emerging, all forever inaccessible to us – this mystery does not call for a religious response. For it is a mystery that results from our partial knowledge and which can be solved only by further knowledge of the same kind – the knowledge that we call science.

Only ignorance would cause us to deny that general picture, and the evangelical atheists assume that religion must deny that picture and therefore must, at some level, commit itself to the propagation of ignorance or at any rate the prevention of knowledge. Yet I do not know a religious person among my friends and acquaintances who does deny that picture, or who regards it as posing the remotest difficulty for his faith. Dawkins writes as though the theory of the selfish gene puts paid once and for all to the idea of a creator God – we no longer need that hypothesis to explain how we came to be. In a sense that is true. But what about the gene itself: how did that come to be? What about the primordial soup? All these questions are answered, of course, by going one step further down the chain of causation. But at each step we encounter a world with a singular quality: namely that it is a world which, left to itself, will produce conscious beings, able to look for the reason and the meaning of things, and not just for the cause. The astonishing thing about our universe, that it contains consciousness, judgement, the knowledge of right and wrong, and all the other things that make the human condition so singular, is not rendered less astonishing by the hypothesis that this state of affairs emerged over time from other conditions. If true, that merely shows us how astonishing those other conditions were. The gene and the soup cannot be less astonishing than their product.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. And still we have yet to see anyone specify exactly when the line is crossed
from "benevolent kind acceptable atheist" to "militant fundamentalist unacceptable atheist."

Although from my observation, that line is evidently crossed when someone says "I think belief in god is unsupported by the evidence."
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. What rubbish.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I forget whether it was Dennet or Dawkins who had a good laugh at theologians' expense
when he marveled over the idea that they think that any question that can't be answered by science can be answered by theology. As if praying really hard will tell anyone where the primordial soup came from!
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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. I' m not sure what level of Atheist I am, but i do not accept the view that their
religion makes them a better person than Atheists are or than homosexuals are. Feel free to add others plus combinations. As proof of the truth in my view, I submit: religious people are more apt to be Bush supporters, less supportive of safety nets for individuals, more supportive of ways to make life miserable for the less fortunate and more apt to be Republicans.

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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Two Straw Men and a False Choice in the first sentence.
I couldn't read any further.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I saw those exact same things
yet I couldn't stop reading! :crazy:
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. FWIW, Scruton is a well-known English philosopher
I had heard of him, and I can't name that many living philosophers. Though that may be because he was prominent in the never-ending arguments about fox-hunting - he is a strong proponent of it, on grounds of 'freedom' and tradition, I think.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Fox hunting, eh?
Colour me surprised.
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uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I remember seeing an early clip of "Borat" "reporting" on England.
Just after the character was created, Cohen took him to a foxhunt. He met a man named "Lord Slaughter" (I'm not making that up) who maintained his name was "laughter" with and "s" in front. Borat said, "In Kazakhstan, we kill small animal so we feel like big man." He also did a great job on the protesters outside.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Seeing a fox scream while being ripped to shreds by hounds once was enough for me.
There is no excuse for making an animal suffer that much.

It reminds me of something the current occupant in the White House would find enjoyable.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Well, now I'm sick.
Ugh. My mom went once to a hunt, and all she said was that it thoroughly disgusted her beyond anything she'd ever seen before. Now I know why.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. Moreover, these things would cease to astonish us ...
I disagree with most of what Scruton says; but I did find the article thought provoking. Particularly:

... The astonishing thing about our universe, that it contains consciousness, judgement, the knowledge of right and wrong, and all the other things that make the human condition so singular, is not rendered less astonishing by the hypothesis that this state of affairs emerged over time from other conditions. If true, that merely shows us how astonishing those other conditions were. The gene and the soup cannot be less astonishing than their product.

Moreover, these things would cease to astonish us – or rather, they would fall within the ambit of the comprehensible – if we could find a way to purge them of contingency. That is what religion promises: not a purpose, necessarily, but something that removes the paradox of an entirely law-governed world, open to consciousness, that is nevertheless without an explanation: that just is, for no reason at all. ...


I found it strange that he claims that religion can make the world less astonishing. A less astonishing world doesn't have any real appeal to me. But, he may be correct that this is the gist of what religion offers people.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. What's an evangelical atheist?
I went to an evangelical Christian college, so I know what the term evangelical means. I've had good atheist friends and learned a lot here, so I know what that term means. But, forgive me for asking something this basic, what the heck is an evangelical atheist? If you're referring to atheists who debate believers, that's not being evangelical, just being honest. If you're referring to atheists who try to convince believers that they're wrong, that's just being honest, too. I've never run into anyone I would term evangelical here, since I'm well aware of what techniques tend to be used when evangelizing.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I can just about see the application of 'evangelical' to an atheist
if they spend a significant amount of their time trying to persuade people that their lives would be better if they didn't believe in gods. Thus I might see it as a label for Dawkins - he's gone to the length of writing books, creating a website and making TV programmes about it, and even set up an educational foundation. You might say he's saying "have you heard the good news - there's no need to believe in God".

But with only a handful of atheists in the whole world is that actually a significant part of their lives - if the subject comes up, many will give their opinions candidly, and they may feel strongly about things like separation of church and state, and may campaign on that, but that's a bit different - they can join with followers of religion on that quite easily, and it's more cultural than theological.

It's not an identifiable school of thought, or mode of living - "part of our duty as atheists is to witness about why we don't believe in the supernatural". Which I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that it is, for an evangelical Christian (though I know that doesn't have to be 'pushy' - I regularly read the Slactivist blog, which has an author who says he's evangelical, but is liberal, scornful of the Left Behind books (for reasons of politics, theology, and literature), and generally interesting and a good egg). So it's not something I'd ever use to describe a group.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Maybe for Dawkins, but even then, it doesn't quite fit.
I can't see him preaching an evangelical-type sermon on how everyone should be atheist. He's too snarky.

Most atheists I know are live-and-let-live types. That's not how an evangelist thinks. Evangelists are all about saving people from themselves, helping them see the light, and getting a high off of turning someone to Christ (not to be too cynical, but that's part of why I left that church). I don't know any atheists who are quite that bad--maybe snarky and a bit pushy, but never approaching making a friend just to get them to become an atheist or going door to door or standing on street corners passing out pamphlets or sending missionaries to start, um, book clubs or whatever.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. It's ironic that when religious people want to insult atheists
they try to smear them with all sorts of religious epithets--calling atheism a religion, or saying atheists are evangelists or fundamentalists. I wonder if they ever analyze why they think using religious terms is insulting. Are they ashamed of their own religiousness on some level? Of their own evangelism? I don't know. I just note the phenomenon.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I think it's to level the playing field and an issue of terms.
They use terms they know to apply to behavior they think looks familiar. They also seem to have a need to make sure everyone's all equal in the debate. At least, that's how I look at it. I think it's wrong--defining someone without their permission is wrong. Let atheists define themselves.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Words are also twisted to help with a purpose
Take "creationsim" for example. Or scientific creationism, or whatever the hell they call it. It is well done from a political perspective since the argument of "believing" evolution puts evolution in the realm of belief (religion) rather than science.

The same is done to atheism when there are attempts to place it in the realm of belief rather than letting it be classified for what it really is: lack of belief in God. I think the person who uses such terms feels attacked so he/she reacts with his/her own attack using his/her own terminology. It is funny that it is used as a put down in a "you are just as stupid as we are" sort of way.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's a really good point.
I hadn't thought of it that way. That makes sense.
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