A bit of a religion conundrum:

[knitter4democracy]

And no, I'm not going to give up on faith entirely as the answer. ;) I don't think it would help the situation anyway. *sigh*

Okay, there's this neighborhood kid that my kids really get along with and enjoy playing with. Nice kid. I have talked with his mom at length (we're both stay-at-home moms), and she seemed fine. I've met his dad, been to his house, and all seems fine.

The first clue something was up was when he came to the kids' birthday party this summer. His mom wouldn't let him come to the movie with us (started at our home with food and cake and presents and then moved to the movie theater to see Wall-E) because of a church thing. He was really upset and actually begged me to call his mom and make her change her mind and let him go. I told him that I couldn't go against his mom on this and that she and his dad had already made the decision. He was really, really upset about it and said that they'd make him wait for the DVD (probably because of movie costs, etc.).

So, later that week, I had a chance to talk with his mom, and I asked if it was because they didn't do movies (I grew up Nazarene and had picked up on a conservative Christian vibe before with them--and the Church of the Nazarene is against movies). She said that, no, they were fine with movies but that the church thing was just too important (some choir thing she was singing in) for him not to go. That's when she started telling me all about how they're Southern Baptist and how awesome the singing thing was and that we should go. I told her no, thank you, nicely, and I thought everything was fine.

The second clue was when my kids ran in the house, telling me that Obama was a horrible man and that no one should ever vote for him. I told them that their friend's parents weren't Democrats like we are and that they're allowed to have their own opinions but that we're going to be working with the Obama campaign and are solid Democrats and not to talk politics with their friend if they're just going to fight about it. To my daughter's credit, I heard her yelling at the boy that President Bush is evil and that Obama's not. :)

So, today, my son runs into the basement where I'm cleaning to tell me that his friend wants to talk to me. The boy starts telling me all about his church's Vacation Bible School and how he wants my kids to go, too. I was honest and told him that I wouldn't allow my kids to go there since his church says that we're not really Christians (Southern Baptists are pretty clear on Catholics and Eastern Orthodox going to hell, etc.) and that I didn't want them trying to make my kids change churches (I used to work Nazarene VBSs and know the drill). He was sad but said that he kinda understood, and then I gave the phone back.

Now I'm wondering if I did the right thing. Maybe I should've just said no and left it at that. I'd hate for his parents to be horrified that we're Eastern Orthodox (they've never been inside the house and seen our icon corner--always guaranteed to shock and horrify our evangelical family members) and say that their son can't play here anymore. I'm also wondering how he interpreted it when I said that our churches can disagree but that we can still play together outside of church and be friends.

Ugh. This is one of the reasons I don't like it when people (and I include my past self in this) proselytize. I've already had to fend off the Mormon friends earlier this spring (at least that mom was fine with it), and now this.

Should I call his mom or just let it slide?

[Speck Tater]

1. Invite their family to come with you to YOUR church. NT

[patrice]

2. I second that motion. nt

[knitter4democracy]

6. I thought about it.

Before my rational side kicked in, I thought about inviting them to liturgy this Sunday, since they so obviously need to see how much better our church is. :eyes: Then I realized it would just start a fight.

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. It wouldn't have to start a fight

Extend the invitation, and let it stay there. If they ask you to theirs, remind them of your outstanding invitation and say you would be happy to go once they've attended yours.

[annabanana]

3. It seems you're doing pretty well.

If she doesn't "escalate" you needn't either.

[JerseygirlCT]

4. I think you did nothing wrong there

And if it will stop any further proseltyzing, I'd give her a call and tell her that you're Orthodox, and quite happy with your own church and your own views, and that it would be a shame to have that get in between the nice friendship your kids have developed.

Looking at the best possibilities, they didn't know you were involved in a church, and thought that they were so happy where they were they wanted to share. Now, the odds of this being entirely the case might not be 100% of course. But probably better to behave as if they had better motives, right?

So when they learn that you're all set, then further pushing would really be wrong. But first they have to know.

Probably likewise with the politics. I've had funny conversations with some neighbors about politics (disagreements, but perfectly pleasant) but there are others with whom I just wouldn't go there.

Seems like being open and pleasant is your best option. Just my couple cents.

[knitter4democracy]

5. I was thinking of calling the mom to clarify.

I know they wouldn't be comfortable with our church, and I thought we'd made everything clear when talking about the movie thing, but maybe not. *sigh*

[JerseygirlCT]

7. It would be nice if things didn't have to get this complicated

I'm sorry you have to deal with this!

[Orrex]

8. His parents did the wrong thing by sending him to proselytize

However benign the trappings, he didn't come up with the idea to invite you all on his own. It's much the same as hardcore evangelical groups that claim their kids really want to distribute literature at schools and aren't being pushed to do it.

IMO his parents have commited a serious breach of courtesy and an inexcusable ploy of leverage. For whatever reason they're reluctant to pursue it with you, but they're more than happy to use their child and your children as outlets for their faith. I do, of course, accept their right to worship as they choose, but they cross the line when they attempt to indoctrinate your children behind your back. And it's the height of poor manners to send their own kid in as an operative.

Call the mom, and let her response guide your next move. If you tell her that you're not comfortable debating theology with her child, then she should respect that. If she doesn't, then you may need to think seriously about how exposure to her views and her tactics may affect your children.

[knitter4democracy]

10. Well, having grown up evangelical, his parents might not have known.

There's a lot of pressure in Sunday School and church, and church was just yesterday. He probably got all excited about VBS and wanted his friends there for the fun, too. I'm not going to blame his parents just yet.

Maybe I really should just call his mom and see what's up.

[Orrex]

11. That's a level-headed way to respond

To be honest, though, I would be more freaked out about their possible impact/influence upon my kids. My wife and I are atheist, and we kind of bristle when neighbors just assume that we're this or that faith. If I learned that a family were matter-of-factly spreading the good news to my kids, I would have no qualms about telling that kids family flat out what I think of religion in general and proselytizing in particular.

I applaud your restraint, but I confess(!) that I wouldn't likely be so measured in my response.

[knitter4democracy]

14. I focus instead on my kids.

I try to explain to them why we go to our church and that we should respect those of other faiths. They ask me about stuff when it comes up (my daughter has friends who are pagan, Jewish, Mormon, and various kinds of Christian), and I try to explain it in as basic and fair a way as I can. That way, I'm hoping they'll respect others in their faith.

[Orrex]

15. I teach my kids to throw rocks at people carrying bibles

Hardy har har.

We haven't yet been in a position to have to explain much of the issue to my 4.5 year old, in part because religion is entirely absent from our house. When it comes up, we usually tell him that people believe lots of different things, and sometimes they go to church to talk about what they believe in.

Good luck with your situation in any case!

[knitter4democracy]

16. *giggle* I could see that.

;)

A friend of mine is raising her kids like that, and I respect that for her and make sure my kids know to not bring it up. When did respect for differences get so hard to find? *sigh*

[Orrex]

17. Such respect went out of fashion by the time Bush Sr. was in office

And likely during the Reagan error or earlier.

Note: I meant to type "era" there, but it was such a delightful slip that I had to keep it.


What most vexes me is that my community seems to believe that its views re: politics, society, and religion are the default norm, so that conversations begin with the assumption that we're all on the same Right-leaning, gay-hating, God-loving page. As a result, I play my theological cards pretty close to my chest, and I don't expound upon my views expect to people whom I know very well, unless I know that their views really are compatible with mine.

Sad to have to live this way. I mean, I'm far from persecuted (let's be honest--off the top of my head I can think of dozens of groups that have it far worse) but it's weird that I have to go through the masquerade just to avoid that ugly tension between me and the guy two houses down...

[Warpy]

9. I'd let it slide for now

because kids really don't understand that churches are all that different, something that makes them spiritually way ahead of adults who get all hung up on doctrinal hairsplitting. Chances are the kid just wanted your kid to go to camp with him, not convert him.

"No honey, we go to a different church," should have been sufficient. If his mom contacts you, on the other hand, then you need to explain that you've already got a religion, thanks, and you're going to stick with your own, hope her kid has a great time at camp, goodbye.

This is how my own mother, Irish Catholic agnostic who believed in reincarnation, dealt with neighbor kids who wanted me to bag the Girl Scouts and go with them to the Southern Baptist equivalent.

My mother wasn't shy about drawing lines in the sand when it came to religious or political proselytizing. She didn't do it and she didn't allow others to do it. Some neighbors sulked for a while but they all eventually got over it. Peace was kept and kids weren't handed a lot of stuff they really didn't understand at that age.

[Sanctified]

12. I think you are on the right track, keep talking to the other kids mother.

We as Christians could learn a lot from just having normal conversations with other Christians who have different beliefs than us. I have friends who are Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Catholic and Seventh Day Adventist. I enjoy talking about religion with them I feel I learn more about them and they learn more about me and it helps to build the respect we all deserve.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. You did the right thing

in what you said to the boy. The next time you see the mom, ask her over for coffee. Tell her your feelings then. From what I know of Southern Baptists, they have to be told firmly or they just keep on and on and on....

[Zebedeo]

18. Southern Baptists

Southern Baptists are pretty clear on Catholics and Eastern Orthodox going to hell, etc.

Where did you learn this? I am not challenging or disputing what you are saying. I am genuinely interested in finding out whether this is true, because I currently attend a Lutheran church, but am considering attending a Southern Baptist church that is much, much closer to my house and more a part of my neighborhood and community. My wife seems to be leaning toward switching churches, but I have questions about Southern Baptists' theology. I have been trying to figure out whether they are against drinking alcohol and dancing (which to me seem like absurd, non-Biblical prohibitions). I have also heard that Baptists believe in the doctrine of "preservation of the saints," meaning "once saved, always saved." I have real problems with that doctrine.

If it turns out that Southern Baptists believe that Catholics and Orthodox are hell-bound, that would be another theological beef I would have with them.

BTW, I think you handled your situation with your kids well.

On edit:

Here is a link to a Baptist page that seems to suggest that Baptists do not think that Catholics are necessarily unsaved:

"I do believe that it’s possible for Roman Catholics to be genuinely saved in spite of what their church teaches,” Gordon added. “It’s faith in Jesus Christ that saves, not membership in a church or denomination. Salvation is not determined by church membership. Salvation is determined by personal faith in Jesus Christ.”

I still would be very interested to know the source(s) for what you have heard about Baptists believing that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believers being unsaved.

[knitter4democracy]

23. First of all, I've been told that to my face by a missionary.

He told me that he had to go to Russia because the Orthodox Church was sending people to hell and that God sent him there to save their souls. *sigh*

The Southern Baptists have consistently gone to Orthodox and Catholic countries or heavily Catholic areas in the US to try to convert them. It's part of who they are.

Baptists are all different, though. There are several different conventions, and not all of them are as conservative as others. Most do believe in "once saved, always saved," and many are pro-prohibition and conservative dress and behavior. (I learned this from Baptists who went to my evangelical college--they fit in just fine with the behavior code but chafed against the Wesleyan theology in the required religion classes). I'd have to look up my notes from Christian Beliefs in college to know for sure.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. Many conservative Protestants oppose more traditional traditions

Mostly, this attitude derives from the Reformation, when Protestant preachers were adamant that veneration of saints and the Eucharist was the same as worshipping pagan gods and that icons were tantamount to idolatry.

[knitter4democracy]

30. That's what I've been told.

I've been asked about the idols in my house. :eyes:

[JerseygirlCT]

36. Yeah, we Episcopalians don't quite match up to some

Protestant standards. (Or RC ones, either!)

Too many smells and bells for the hard-core Calvinists, too much indpendence for the RCs!

[TechBear_Seattle]

39. Episcopal churches really span the gamut

Many years ago, I attended St. Michael's and All Angels in Tucson. High Church? Think stratospheric: sung introit in either Gregorian chant or plainsong, sung antiphonal psalm between the Old and New Testament readings, a sung gradual before the Gospel (to fill time while the Gospel Book was censed), the Gospel itself sung on high feast days, a formal censing of the elements, the clergy and the congregation at the Eucharist, most of the Eucharist ritual sung in plainsong, and a formal exit after service with the reserved sacrament carried by a priest wearing a humeral veil (all under a canopy carried by acolytes on high feasts.) They were amazingly liberal, too: for some decades, a large sign outside the church proclaimed that it was a sin to build nuclear weapons.

I then moved to central California and joined a congregation that was so low church, they made the Wesleyans (theologically very conservative Methodists) look like exciting and fun-filled. The main Sunday service was Rite I Morning Prayer with the Eucharist (also Rite I) celebrated Sunday evenings. Need I say that this church was in the Diocese of the San Joaquin, home of the apostate former bishop, John-David Schofield?

[JerseygirlCT]

40. Oh dear.

I never could really warm up to Rite I. Too much of a RC for that in my upbringing, I guess. Too much of a music person, too.

I could get into liberal with lots of smells and bells! My church falls in-between. We do both a Rite I service and a II. One is sort of stark without music. And stupid-early in the morning. Folks who want to get church over and done with tend to go to that. II is the big, everyone including the noisy kids service. And I wouldn't have that any other way!


And no, that doesn't surprise me about SJ...

[knitter4democracy]

43. That sounds like an Orthodox church.

Everything's sung, everything's censed, and everything's processed around. No wonder we get some Episcopalian converts in our church.

[JerseygirlCT]

46. You guys do like that ritual, too!

You know, I *like* the folks at the congregational church here. They do a lot in the community, they're out there helping all the time... just NICE people, you know?

But a service without some of that liturgy, and ritual... it feels sterile to me. Missing a very key element.

I'd make a lousy Calvinist.

[knitter4democracy]

47. It's part of why I converted.

I found that I need the candles and incense and icons. The first time I walked into an Orthodox liturgy, I felt like I was walking into a cloud of the Holy Spirit. I still feel that from time to time, and it's just who I am. I must need that ritual more than I ever had realized growing up.

[varkam]

20. I never knew you were Eastern Orthodox!

My best friend's father is an Eastern Orthodox priest. Pretty cool individual if you ask me.

Anyway, I don't think that you did anything wrong. It might of been a bit harsh, but I think it might serve as a good check against the crap his parents are probably filling his head with. I would follow up with the kid's parents though and tell them to knock it off (you can put it in nicer terms, if you would like). That's just my .02, though.

[knitter4democracy]

24. Hubby and I are converts.

We grew up Nazarene and converted after we got married, though our path to Orthodoxy started much earlier than that. Some of my favorite people are Orthodox clergy--very laid-back and understanding of everything. :)

[varkam]

32. That's what I think too...

It I were ever going to be a Christian, I would imagine that EO might not be a bad place for me.

[knitter4democracy]

35. It's the more mystical side of the faith.

I like that we don't chase our tails trying to explain everything as logically as possible but admit that we don't know. I like not knowing. :)

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Ooo! I'm good at not knowing!

No good at all at the all-male priesthood thing, though!

[knitter4democracy]

41. We're working on that.

Being Orthodox, we've been working on it since the last deaconess in the 1300s, but we're making some progress.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. LOL...

nothing like thousands of years of history to make TPTB feel like there's no hurry, huh?

Yes, that's a big part of why I left the RCC: no chance it was going to happen in my lifetime and I refused to raise my kids thinking it was ok. So, excepting one interim priest and some substitutes, all their rectors have been women since we joined TEC! When it rains, it pours, I guess.

We're in the process of calling a new priest now though - so I don't know who we'll have in a year or so.

[knitter4democracy]

45. Ain't that the truth.

One thing I've learned about the Orthodox: they're slower than turtles. Most churches have only developed Sunday School programs in just the last few years, and there's still very little curricula out there. Yeah, we do everything half as fast as the RCC, and they're slow, too.

[Evoman]

21. My perverted mind saw "A bit of a religious condom".

Now I am sorely disappointed.

[JerseygirlCT]

22. Tsk Tsk Tsk nt

[knitter4democracy]

25. Gee, what's on your mind today?

:P

[Evoman]

33. Today? Bwahaha...more like everyday.

Except sundays......sundays I'm too busy festering in hatred and bigotry to think about religious condoms.

[knitter4democracy]

34. What did Douglas Adams call Sunday afternoons?

The long dark teatime of the soul?

[EvilAL]

27. I've never had to deal with overly religious people

I agree kids should be left out of adult bullshit. whether it's religion, race or any other fuckin difference.

I had my kids baptized because the grandparents wanted it to happen. Like it was something that had to be done, no pressure, but you know. They seemed to feel that a baby had to be baptized. Like it had to have a name or something. They know how I feel about all the religious stuff, but out of respect for my parents and hers we had it done. My daughter went to catechism and all that, but once she started to not really care to go anymore and just be a kid I let her stop. I told her it was up to her to decide what she believed in when it came to religion and that these decisions are best left to when you are older. Then a year and a half later she wanted to start going again because we moved a little way and it was a chance for her to see a few of her friends that she didn't see everyday anymore. So I let her go again. Reminding her some of the rules about church marriage later on and confirmation and stuff and that if she wanted to do it and have the stuff done now was a good time. Even though I knew it didn't really matter much in the long run, I still wanted her to know a bit about the religion she supposedly belongs to. She stopped wanting to go after a few more weeks.
Then when they were about done school for the summer one of her friends gave her a brochure for a Bible Camp. She showed me it and said she wanted to go. I asked her why and she said that a few of their friends were going and they have fun when they go. I asked her if she read the bible and liked what it had to say. She said no, just what she learned in catechism. So I asked her if she believed the stories and things they told her in catechism. Again she said no. I asked her why she would want to go to a bible camp if she didn't believe the stories in it. She said they go boating and hiking and there isn't really much bible stuff at all. I told her it's called BIBLE CAMP! it says BIBLE CAMP as the name of it. They are going to teach you bible stuff, every activity is going to be bible based "somehow or you won't be able to join in unless you pray or something (I was guessing on how bible camps are). She didn't agree and said her friend said it wasn't like that and I told her I'd meet with one of the people running this camp.
I met 2 people, a man and a woman.. one was everything except an actual priest and the other was his wife. They thought I was interested and was there to pay to register. I started asking various questions about how safe it was, what their emergency strategies were and stuff, they said it was safe, but couldn't offer anything except they could call 911 if something really bad happened. They were both trained in CPR and the wife was a Licensed Practical Nurse. I thought ok, they seem to have their shit together as far as safety goes. So I asked about their bible teachings. The assured me that the Bible was of the most concern throughout the week. Everything focused on the bible and all the activities were "bible-related". So I asked about punishment. He told me that if they "don't pray they don't play." I asked her what that expression meant and she said that unless they pray at the praying times (paraphrasing) they don't get to be invloved in the activities. I asked how you can tell if someone is praying or not.. she said, It has to be aloud. I said "allowed? or aloud". she said aloud.
My daughter speaks for the first time and says "You know what dad, nevermind, I think I'll just stick around home instead" I thanked them for their time and left.

On the ride home she asked why her friends would say that it wasn't all bible stuff when it was. I gave her 2 explanations.
1. They are so used to bible stuff that they don't see praying and everything else as something they "have" to do, but just as a normal everyday thing. Which is fine.
2. The people running the camp thought I was religious, so they beefed up the religious aspect of the camp to make me want to send you.

I'm not going to try to stop my kid from hanging out with her religious friend, nor will I tell my kid to tell their religious friend bad shit about them because of their religion. Leave the fuckin kids out of it. Unfotunately, "get them while their young" is a common theme amongst all religions and bad habits.

sorry for the length, but i don't post much and i'm pretty buzzed.

[knitter4democracy]

29. I've been to a Bible camp, and I think you made the right call.

Ah, Senior High Camp. Horrible week. We were woken up early and put to bed late with no real rest so that I literally fainted from lack of sleep in the morning service on Thursday and slept straight for 24 hours.

I don't think they were beefing it up--I think they were being honest. The camp I went to was a church-run camp through the church district we were in and so probably a bit different, but Bible camp is still Bible-based. There are services, prayer times, singing, and classes on the faith. She would've hated it.

[SidneyCarton]

28. You did wisely here.

As a former missionary myself, I learned that you preach to those who are interested, and leave the hostile, or merely uninterested alone, no need to be disrespectful or crude, just don't waste their time.

[Book Lover]

31. One mom to another, I think you should chat with her

just in an informal, "wanted to let you know" kind of way. Try to keep it friendly and welcoming, and focus on how great it is that your kids are friends. Good luck.

[Evoman]

38. I have only one piece of advice.....

There is no problem in the world that can't be solved by a roundhouse to the brain stem. Not one.

[knitter4democracy]

42. Hmm. I don't think it would work on my kids.

Dang. ;)