True or false: Jesus is to Christianity as the Koran is to Islam? n/t (e.o.m.)

[Boojatta]

[Iris]

1. kind of apples and oranges there, isn't it?

[Boojatta]

2. Both fruit? Or one has a central core and the other has seeds throughout?

[Iris]

4. hmmm.... now that's something to ponder.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. I don't understand how a being can be comparable to a religious text.

[gatorboy]

5. Jesus is easily read?

Perhaps he meant Allah?

[Drunken Irishman]

6. I am so confused. :(

[Buzz Clik]

7. A guy is to religion built by his followers as a book is to the religion it describes.

Great logic.

[Boojatta]

9. I heard a self-classified Christian once recite "I am the word"

A statement attributed to Jesus?

[Buzz Clik]

11. Ah. A religious scholar.

:eyes:

[Boojatta]

13. No, I am certainly not a religious scholar.

However, I recall reading that there was a dispute among some adherents of (different denominations of?) Islam as to whether the Koran was eternal or created. If some self-classified Muslims hold the Koran to be eternal and not created, then... anything?

[Buzz Clik]

25. Another troll. Fool me once...

[Boojatta]

26. ... and Buzz Clik cannot be fooled again.

You claim to have been fooled. Under what circumstances were you made a fool of?

[Boojatta]

29. Here's one reference.

Under the ‘Umayyads, when a rigid orthodoxy was taking form in quarters not sympathetic towards the official Khalif, a view arose that the actual words expressed in the Qur’an were co-eternal with God, and it was only the writing down of these words which had taken place in time.

Website:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/ath/ath04.htm

[Buzz Clik]

35. You either need to take this shit seriously or leave it alone.

Your misquoting/misinterpreting of Jesus has been pointed out in no uncertain terms. So, the first part of your question was flushed.

This quote from the Qur'an you give is meaningless in the context you're creating because nearly every "holy" book is assumed to be the word of God and, therefore, eternal.

For most people, religion is not a game of semantics. If you have any interest at all, become of student of the religions even if you don't believe them.

[Boojatta]

36. "Your misquoting/misinterpreting of Jesus has been pointed out in no uncertain terms."

Link?

[Occam Bandage]

45. Sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1

[Boojatta]

42. "This quote from the Qur'an you give"

When did I give a quote from the Qur'an?

[Occam Bandage]

19. I don't know what that Christian was reciting, but it wasn't the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1

[Boojatta]

48. Well, I'm working from my own recollections, not from written notes.

Once I attended some kind of church service in a meeting room of a hotel and the organizers seemed to be worried when they saw me taking notes. It's difficult to know when notes are going to be needed later to get the wording exactly right and when notetaking is going to disturb people.

[notadmblnd]

8. false

[Boojatta]

14. What would happen if you publicly burned your own copy of

a Koran in Mecca?

[Occam Bandage]

17. What would happen if you publicly burned your own copy of Jesus in Rome?

:crazy:

[notadmblnd]

22. i don't know, I've never been there.

Should I assume some sort of punishment? I suppose that if I burned a bible publicly in front of Christians, they would be upset or offended. One may even assault me with intent to great bodily harm. Do you know if I would be treated differently publicly in Mecca? Religious fanatics are dangerous no matter what religion they subscribe to. They take and twist their authority's words to justify their beliefs and deeds, not mine. Hate is hate, it doesn't have a religion or color.

[Boojatta]

39. Periodically dozens or hundreds of people die in a single incident

in Mecca, in preventable accidents caused by: failure to communicate with visitors in language they can understand and/or failure to revise and/or enforce safety rules involving crowds. The people who die in their dozens or hundreds and the people who are employed in Mecca to develop and implement safety rules all consider themselves to be Muslims.

Now, what is likely to happen if someone who happens to own a Koran deliberately sets it on fire in a public place in Mecca? Perhaps this is a great unknowable because it's difficult to imagine that any major college with a good reputation would allow itself to be in any way associated with an actual experimental test.

[ZombieHorde]

54. "What would happen if you publicly burned your own copy of a Koran in Mecca?"

Several things...

You would have one less copy of the Koran.

People around you would freak out.

Al Gore would make you buy carbon credits.

[OhioChick]

10. Hmmm....

I would say that "Jesus is to Christianity as Mohammed is to Islam."

Make sense? :shrug:

[Boojatta]

15. One of the three persons of the trinity (the three-fold person of God)

was just a reliable messenger?

[pegleg]

12. Actually, I think it is quite a good comparison.

To orthodox Christianity, the Bible is the Word, "and the Word was made flesh". In Islam the Quran is the sacred word of Allah. So yes there could be a loose comparison.

[eShirl]

16. Did you ever take the S.A.T.s?

If this were an S.A.T. question, the answer would be false...

but this is a Boojatta question, so the answer is not so simple as that.

:)

[Occam Bandage]

18. False. The Koran is the word of God, and is created.

The Council of Nicaea declared that Jesus was "begotten, not made," a crucial theological difference. According to Islam, the Koran is the word of God, and stands as a creation of God almighty. According to Christianity, Jesus is God the Savior, begotten of God the Father, light from light, true God from true God.

[Meshuga]

20. In what sense?

True if you say both are sacred.
False if you say both are son of God.
True if you say Muslims follow Koran while Christians follow Jesus.
False if you say both are worshiped.
True if you say both supposedly reveal divine messages.
False if you say both are religious texts...

And I'm sure more can be added to the list.

[Boojatta]

21. Send your resume to the organization that writes the M.A.T. tests.

In case the acronym M.A.T. is ambiguous:

The Miller Analogy Test is the one I had in mind.

[Meshuga]

32. I think you should be the one sending your resume to them

It would be funny to see the confused test takers asking "WTF?" when taking one of your tests.

With all kidding aside, what would be your own answer to your OP?

[Boojatta]

34. The approach you suggested earlier is reasonable.

For the question in the title, I consider open-ended back-and-forth discussion to be appropriate. I don't consider it appropriate to restrict people to a short list of options for answering the question in the title of this thread. So maybe it's a good thing that this thread isn't a poll.

[Az]

23. I have come to the conclusion that Booj is incapable of making up his own mind

So he posts polls here in R&T in order to let other people make up his mind for him.

[Boojatta]

30. Why do you post in my threads?

[Az]

31. In the hope of discerning something about your identity

I am odd. Thus I like odd. You are odd. I like you. But I don't understand you yet. So I continue to try to plum your personality in hopes of figuring out what makes you tick. Er or tock. Whatever it is you do.

[Boojatta]

33. Why do you like yourself?

(Not intended as snark.)

[Az]

38. Not really the place for that

Private message me if you are really interested.

[Boojatta]

40. How about the DU Lounge?

[HamdenRice]

24. There is no Boojatta. Only Zhul.

[spanone]

27. the bible is to christianity......

[EvilAL]

28. True

They are from the same bull.

[benEzra]

37. The New Testament is to Christianity as the Koran is to Islam.

Jesus is to Christianity as Allah is to Islam, I would suggest.

[Boojatta]

41. Isn't stubborn reliance upon some interpretation of some verses

in the OT a significant characteristic of some denominations of Christianity? For example, given that Roman Catholic Christianity defines conception as the very beginning of human life, why does Roman Catholic Christianity oppose the use of condoms by married couples? A condom may prevent conception, but it doesn't interfere with the single-celled organism that is a fertilized egg.

[Occam Bandage]

43. That isn't an example of stubborn reliance upon the OT.

The OT nowhere defines where "life begins," nor does it ever claim anything that might reasonably be interpreted as such a declaration, save Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you"--which is a certainly a stretch, but which is also a discussion for another time I think.

The RC opposition to condoms has more to do with Aristotle than it does to do with the Old Testament. By the day of Constantine, Christianity was no longer a Jewish reform sect, but was a rich Greco-Judaic blend of received Scripture and lively Hellenic theological-philosophical debate (you'll note that the New Testament and all formative Church writings are written in Greek, not Aramaic). During this period of synthesis, the Aristotelian notion of Telos (end purpose) was absorbed by the Church: God the Father created a perfect universe, and in this perfect universe every thing has its right action, and every right action had a right purpose to justify it.

The Roman Catholic Church believes that men and women were created with genitals and sexual desire so they might have sex. It also believes that the holy purpose of sex is procreation. Deliberate interference with procreation is interference with the right purpose of sex; without that right purpose, sex is not right action--it is, much as masturbation or as homosexual activity, a fruitless action constituting a misuse of Godly instruments.

For what it's worth.

[Boojatta]

46. "The RC opposition to condoms has more to do with Aristotle than ..."

I got this far and must thank you for a refreshingly snark-free contribution to this thread. Plus, I'm going to keep reading. Did I mention that I like your DU username?

[Boojatta]

47. If a married couple could somehow recognize immediately after

the wife has given birth to the final baby that the couple will beget that the baby in question is their final child, then would it be best for the couple to stop having sex?

[Occam Bandage]

49. Well, it would depend on the reason.

Here's what I take out of it:

If they were to be aware that one or both had become infertile by some accident or natural process, then they could continue having sex; God has simply ordained that they will not be gifted with any more children. They are not intending to subvert their bodies' divinely-ordained purposes, so they are in the clear. They may still have sex.

If they were to have decided that they did not want any more children (but were still capable), then they're already walking on dangerous ground. The Church claims it is the responsibility of the parents to "make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood"--that is to say, that their reasons are based on external constraints (e.g. money, time) and not, say, preference or desire to have a life beyond parenting. Once they've decided their motives are acceptable, they have two options: stop having sex entirely, or use the rhythm method.

If you're interested, the entirety of the Catholic positions on love, sex, and marriage is here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

[benEzra]

44. Yes. And I did not mean to imply that Christians in general do not value the OT...

merely that the OT is not specific to Christianity, so I felt the NT was a better fit to the analogy rather than the entire Bible.

A lot of fundamentalists, in particular, attempt to apply Old Testament law in a very authoritarian way. Dietary laws are probably the best example (a lot of people view pork as not particularly healthy for you, but some fundamentalists teach that eating pork is a sin because it is unclean). Most Christians do not take that view, but there are those who do.

[smoogatz]

51. Jesus:Christianity as Mohamed:Islam (i.e., both are prophets)

Allah=Jaweh/Jehovah

It's yet another of Boojie's goofy "trick" questions, in which only he knows what the trick is. Bunny/pancake.

[and-justice-for-all]

50. False...

Jeebus is to Xtianity as Mohammad is to Islam.

[smoogatz]

52. Boojie's implying that Jesus is a text.

It's a kind of '80's literary theory approach to religion: everything's a freaking text. What ev.

[anonymous171]

53. Who's Koran?

[joshcryer]

55. False. More like Paul is to Evangelicals as the Hadith is to Radical Muslims.

"Christianity" and "Muslim" in this context have their flavors.

[heidler1]

56. From an Atheistic standpoint true comes to mind.

Mythology wise. You can add Thor, Jupiter, Neptune, warlocks, Satan, the Bible and hundreds of others.

[Azooz]

57. Adab, the demanding memory that comes upon you of itself.

I prefer Frank Herberts Dune's theology - SF fans tend to be less touchy and I really do not know enough theology to define the role of either.


In a situation where an atheist, Christian, Jew and Muslim are tested for truth or an aversion to lieing - the one who wins is the one who has most "Adab", meaning that the value of truth is more important to that person. The thing that makes truth important need not be religion and it can even be Pride, vanity and arrogance, the role of religion is to to complete or perfect the trait of truth - it fail or not on how much of a role it takes in that person.

In a situation where a lie would make your life easier, would you lie? or would you go ahead and say the truth even if it hurts you like putting your hand in a box of flames? The value of truth to you (at that moment) is called "Adab", the role of this book or that person you remember is what comes to your mind.

So, a young Dune Foreman who rejects all religions in the galaxy might love truth more than a person who knows dozens of books and dozens of holy men, for his lives his whole life among people who consider lies a weakness that jeopardizes their very survival - to be more "truthfully" than a freman and person of another planet's religion would have to be able to see his hand burn in flame rather than lie - the fremen might even call that person a Moa'dib (sp).

What is the role of the little eye of the green god zoarxyewq ? If you love that eye you will not lie, and if you do that little eye will see that you go to hell for it. A Christan I know has a ring with "What Would Jesus Do?" on it, the Koran tells me to speak truth - and we both try to be more truthful than a worshiper of that green god, the importance of that role is defined by how important it is to you.

For some strange reason the "demanding memory" I get about truth comes sometimes from hearing Cher in the 80s explaining how she hated to lie and thought it a needless weakness, and turning the other cheek comes to mind a bit weaker than it should - but again it depends on how one words it - that's the "Spice", and to gain more of it is a personal choice.

So, my answer is True in the Dune sense, meaning that both are great "Adab" and the the little eye of the green god zoarxyewq is Adab to if it's role is to help prevent you from lieing - where Adab here mean "lies are bad, truth is good" only wording and perceived consequences differ - the power of Adab is how important that role is to you, how demanding it is, how much it effects your life - no rewards, no punishments, thoughts of heaven and hell do help but the equalizer is Adab because followers of zoarxyewq might love truth much more than you they give it a hight er role in their life than you do.

I hope I have not upset Frank Herbert's fans to much - that would be bad Adab on my part :)