I hand prayer beads out to all my patients and their families-if they agree

[w8liftinglady]

many find comfort in them...does this transcend the nurse/patient relationship?
example of beads

[napoleon_in_rags]

1. Not if they ask for it.

I was told when I was a nurse aid that we can read the Bible to them and such if they want us to. Its trying to convert people that's not allowed, and we should be open to facilitate other faiths as well.

[w8liftinglady]

3. I have generic beads without a cross as well

[bdf]

41. Now imagine you were receiving treatment

And the nurse offered you prayer beads with an inverted crucifix, implying that she is a satanist. When she sees the expression on your face, she says that she also has beads without the inverted crucifix. Would you be happy with that? Would you want her praying for your soul?

[w8liftinglady]

43. i would thank her for her concern...and accept it

I try to glean positives from all religions

[JuniperLea]

2. Hard to draw that line...

It reaches the most basic human level, no doubt. As a nurse, you want to care for your patients mentally and physically. For those who believe, prayer is mentally helpful. You really can't remove the mind from the body when you talk about healing.

I think this is a very cool thing you are doing. Personally, I would appreciate the thought, even though I'm agnostic. And I would have accepted the gift too. I think it would be very helpful to know another human being cares.

Ok, after thinking out loud here... LOL... I don't think it transcends so much as it completes.

[w8liftinglady]

4. I would make a lovely bead with a full sun as it's focus for you...

[JuniperLea]

5. See... now that kind of thought and personalization...

Would mean a lot if I were laying in a hospital bed. We need to feel others care.

Beautiful! We need to clone you:)

[napoleon_in_rags]

8. I agree, the interpersonal level is the most important.

You can imagine the interfaith level by picturing yourself transplanted far from home and sick in a muslim country. A compassionate nurse gives you some beads with a crescent on them. Would you be offended as a non-muslim? I wouldn't, I'd see the gesture of caring and be grateful. Its when she starts preaching to me about the prophet mohammed that the line could be crossed and it becomes annoying, but the beads don't cross that line.

[w8liftinglady]

10. personally,I don't speak of Christ,God,etc...only of healing and faith

[napoleon_in_rags]

11. Yeah. My local hospital does that very well too.

Providence St. Peters, here in Olympia WA. They have these messages that are all interfaith, very cool.

[tbyg52]

31. I'd be outa there as soon as they said "faith," but

I probably wouldn't go to a place called "Providence St. Peters" if I could help it, in the first place.... ;)

[Book Lover]

6. Personally, I think it may

I am sure you are careful to make sure you don't offend anyone you offer them to. Some (and I have to be honest, like myself) will be offended by the mere offer. I would think, "Oh shit! The nurse knows there's not much hope that medicine can offer, so there she is with prayer beads..."

[w8liftinglady]

9. I 've thought about that

I usually phrase it...if you're scared,know someone beyond us is helping,and have faith.

[tbyg52]

13. >>know someone beyond us is helping

I can tell you that I would take offense at that. I would not like even generic religion served unasked from someone I was paying for professional services. I get my back up rather easily on this, due to many, many bad experiences.

[w8liftinglady]

18. don't worry.I don't barge in with a sermon.Not all patients get one:)

[Book Lover]

17. Again, personally and for me only

That phrasing would not offend or scare me (annoy, maybe a little, but I can shrug that off). It's a fine line. And also, I'm saying this as a healthy person who's never been hospitalized.

[bdf]

40. I would prefer being attended by a nurse who put her faith in her training

than in an imaginary friend.

If nothing else, I'd be worried that such a nurse would neglect some aspects of the treatment figuring that her imaginary friend would pick up the slack.

Apart from that, the message is that your beliefs count and the patient's beliefs do not. Even with your ecumenical, non-denominational approach to it, there are faiths on this planet (obscure ones, I admit) which would see your beads as the vilest heresy - black magic and/or satanism.

To put it another way: if I wanted faith healing I'd go to a church. If I go to a doctor or a hospital I expect scientific, rational, provable medicine. And if I go to a homeopath I expect total bullshit. Which of those three I actually attend ought to determine the type of treatment I receive.

[w8liftinglady]

42. it's cool..I'm nationally certified in three areas,too

[w8liftinglady]

32. you have lended a new insight.I thought I was being kind.

[Book Lover]

39. I know

and I'm not thrilled to be telling someone to stop doing something borne of kindness. I am sorry I don't have any alternative to offer you...

[skepticscott]

7. Yes, it does

If they ask "Can you give us some prayer beads?" that's one thing. But that's not what's happening, I suspect. It sounds like you're offering the prayer beads to them, as someone in a position of authority and control over their lives and well-being, and putting them in the position of having to accept (perhaps unwillingly) or be afraid of offending you. You wouldn't be the first to wish someone ill for not sharing their religious beliefs. This kind of proselytizing is very much out of line for a medical professional.

[w8liftinglady]

12. I appreciate your input.

I think instinctually,I would not offer you beads,unless you appeared distressed.I don't offer them to everyone.

[tbyg52]

14. If it ever comes up

Don't offer them to me even if I *do* appear distressed.... ;)

[w8liftinglady]

15. no problemo...but the offer is there

[tbyg52]

21. You don't understand, I think - I don't *want* the offer to be there.

I don't even want to have known about it. I am one of those atheists in foxholes people say (incorrectly) don't exist. This is starting to remind me (just a little, so far) of other experiences.

[trixie]

16. Personally

I would be very offended and demand a new nurse and you not to be anywhere near me or my family member. Hospitals have chaplains and you can request one if you want. They go to great lengths not to intrude as you are doing.

[w8liftinglady]

20. It's cool.I try to only help those who seem needing it.I'll still take

great care of you,and make sure you are comfy:)

[trixie]

23. tooooooo late

I need a nurse not a relgion pusher. I would so be talking to the director of the hospital. To me it seems as though your are preying on the sick. No pun intended.

[tbyg52]

26. Thank you!

Me too!

If the person has *asked* for religious counsel from a particular person, fine.

Otherwise, how in the heck would you know what would and wouldn't offend them?

I can tell you right now that if a person went by "instinct" on me, they'd probably (based on my interactions with religious people who were not trying to proselytize me, and their reactions to me) assume I was religious.

I try to be a good person. I am also a fairly militant atheist if somebody gets in my face or even looks like they might.

[Wanet]

19. I know that you want to do the best for your patients

as a dedicated nurse, but this is inappropriate. (I am an Episcopalian and have beads like these.) In your hospital, do they ask patients if they would like to talk to the chaplain or have a religious practitioner of a particular faith visit them? It might be appropriate for a chaplain to offer beads, but I think it is overstepping for you as a secular medical care provider. I respect your intentions, but I doubt that your employer would be comfortable with you doing this. -- Wanet

[w8liftinglady]

22. well,crap.I guess I'll stop.People just seem so lonely and needful.

sometime having a tangible item to let them know someone cares could help.I guess it's a bad idea.Thanks for your input.

[Wanet]

24. I think spending some time with patients,

Letting them cry and rage if they need to, holding their hand if they want you to and letting them know how much you care by being present them them, is a wonderful gift to them.

[Book Lover]

28. Nurses often don't have that kind of time, sadly (nm)

[tbyg52]

27. I have no problem with tangible items.

I don't even have a problem with prayer beads if they asked for them *first*, or talked to you about their religion with an indication they wouldn't take them amiss *first*.

I was telling you what my reaction would be. Fairly intense outrage.

[w8liftinglady]

30. outrage is the last thing i was looking for

I want benign kindness that shows caring.I'll look for another medium.

[tbyg52]

35. This conversation is probably the last thing you were looking for....! ;->

I'm usually not on the computer much except for the Monday evening Election Reform news, but wouldn't ya know it, here I am to put in my $.02..... ;) :hug:

[w8liftinglady]

36. I appreciate your input-you speak for the voiceless here

I would never want someone to feel "forced"

[tbyg52]

38. Heh. Actually, we're getting a lot louder -

check out some of the links in my sig. ;)

Gotta go. Thanks for the conversation. I appreciate your care for your patients!

Oh, and I appreciate all your LTTEs as well! I put in my $.02 on your last one. You're singlehandedly turning Waxahatchie (sp? I *should* know how to spell it, as I used to have some relatives there, plus I still remember the abandoned supercollider :grr:) blue! (Or at least purple.... ;) )

[Marrah_G]

65. Can you check their records to see if they are Christians?

[Realityhack]

72. Um. Would a teddy bear work?

I am not trying to be a jerk but if you just want a tangible item that says someone cares why not something else? The assumed implication is that you are saying you want to give them a tangible indication that *your god* cares about them. That could definitely be offensive.

I am certainly happy you care enough to not only think of such an idea but ask people online if it might be over the line. That shows a high level of caring.
However, I do not think you should get all in a huff if you get an answer online that you don't like. I would see a small gift as quite nice. Give me prayer beads and I will ask my family member be transfered and might pursue a complaint with the hospital/facility. I am serious about that. It would be very offensive to me.
But a flower, teddy bear, plant, etc. would be welcome.

[w8liftinglady]

25. in case you were wondering,I'm stopping the practice.

[tbyg52]

29. I know that you are trying to help people.

That part of it was much appreciated.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. I don't think you should.

As someone's nurse, I think you would have a good hold on whether or not it was appropriate to give them to a particular person. I think instinctively, you would know not to give them to a person who would be offended.

[tbyg52]

63. I must disagree

I've had a lot of people, some I was paying for professional services, assume either that I was religious or that it was OK to proselytized me. I really don't think "instinct" is infallible.

[katandmoon]

33. I'm really torn -- I'm what I call "areligious" but a gesture like this from a caring nurse

Would probably really get to me. For me a gift like this transcends particular religious belief. Coming from a nurse who was taking care of a loved one, which is a very intimate relationship, I would find it very meaningful for that reason alone.

Just on an esthetic level, the beads are beautiful -- and the celtic cross has pre-christian associations as well.

I honestly think your patients are very fortunate.

[w8liftinglady]

34. my intent is not to preach.I am a quaker

and a verbal antiwar activist.I want my patients to know that I love them and want the best for them.(I've been a nurse since 1987)..I DO NOT want to offend,so I'll suspend the practice

[tbyg52]

37. That's on my short list of "religions I might be if I weren't an atheist"!

Seriously - I do have such a list....!

I like to think I'm semi-religiously-literate - I just have never had a feeling of "faith" (I've identified as an atheist since I was about seven), have never felt the slightest need for one, and have had bad experiences with assorted religious people off and on since I was a fairly small child.

[w8liftinglady]

44. please-I'm not a bible thumper-I just think

some folks needs a tangible expression of faith

[tbyg52]

45. ? Not sure what in the previous posts caused the "please'....?

I was quite seriously expressing a positive opinion. Sorry if it might have sounded flippant.

I'm back because I just wanted to clarify - I would only be offended if the offer came from someone I was paying for professional services. (Which has happened to me several times, sometimes in circumstances where "none of that, thank you" was explicitly part of the agreement.)

If someone offered me a religious thingie on the street, I'd just say "no thank you." (I actually miss the Hare Krishnas in the airport!)

If a friend gave me one for a gift (it could happen - I don't go around announcing I'm an atheist unless I feel it's necessary, as I obviously did here.... ;) ) , I'd just say "thank you."

Edited to add:

"some folks needs a tangible expression of faith"

Absolutely. And some don't. And IMHO the only way you can know for sure is if they mention it first, especially if they are paying you for professional services.

[w8liftinglady]

46. NO PROB...IT OCCURED TO ME THAT MANY MIGHT NOT APPRECIATE.I'D BEST NOT DO

[tbyg52]

47. And now for something totally different....

I edited one of my posts upstream to thank you for your LTTEs - just mentioning in case you didn't see it after I did the edit. I'm really good at thinking of things after I've already hit "post".....!

Huh. Also good at stupid typos. Edited for same.... ;)

[w8liftinglady]

48. LOL...AND THANKS FOR KEEPING ME GROUNDED!

[w8liftinglady]

49. so-bottom line.

I thought I was helping people.as it turns out,I may have been hurting people..No more.

[w8liftinglady]

50. let me clarify

i want my patients to have something to focus on.if they are not christians,i have alternatives.a positive energy source.I'm just trying to do the right thing:)

[w8liftinglady]

51. now i feel like this is a bad thing

i thought my pts liked this:{

[w8liftinglady]

52. dammit///i refuse to let this dissuade me from doing this

[w8liftinglady]

53. hell.im drunk.im trying to stop, but shit

[Realityhack]

73. Do not stop... do not stop carring about patients...

do not stop looking for things you can give them to bring hope.

DO stop giving things out that look like you are either:
- Unprofesionaly putting faith in something other than modern medicine.
- Making you look like you are trying to preach to people when they are weak.

You may be doing either but avoid the *appearance* of impropriety.

Given your original question I think this falls in the 'if you have to ask' category.

[moggie]

79. So you weren't looking for opinions after all?

Why ask, if your mind is already made up? :shrug:

FWIW, if I were in hospital and one of the staff suggested or hinted at prayer, I'd be freaked. When I calmed down, I'd complain.

[w8liftinglady]

54. DAMN I JUST WABT TO TAKR

[w8liftinglady]

55. SHIT THAT WAS SCREWED UP

[LiberalFighter]

56. Possible suggestion would be to provide them to the catholic priest instead.

And he could then dispense them to those he knew.

[SecularMotion]

57. Deja Vu

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3012487

[knitter4democracy]

59. I'd like them, personally.

You know, in the hospital intake, they ask you what faith you are and which faith group you belong to locally. That would be in the chart, so you could look it up first to ask. So, if someone says they're no faith, you wouldn't offer them beads, but if someone said they were, you could offer them some. I always keep my chotke (a bracelet of knotted yarn used as prayer beads in the Orthodox faith) with me when I'm in the hospital, so you'd see mine anyway. :)

[Evoman]

60. I officially dubb this "the Amy Winehouse of threads"

[trotsky]

70. ...

:spray:

[JuniperLea]

61. Not everyone is an asshole/curmudgeon...

I'm really sad to see you give this up. Really. When there are so few who care, then you see abusive assholes like this whip the caring shit out of someone, well, all I can say is... what a... sorry, can't type it out loud:)

[tbyg52]

66. I believe I remained polite and made my points in a reasoned way.

That's just my opinion, you understand.

I must admit to having had many bad experiences in my life with religious people (some of whom I was paying for professional services) who assumed either a) that I was religious or b) that it was OK to proselytized me.

Not the top of the "problems of the world" list, even to me, but you do get tired of it. And the Original Poster *did* ask.

I think the best suggestion on the thread was "go look it up on the chart." If it had been indicated in the OP or in subsequent clarifications before I felt compelled to weight in that that was done, I would not have posted one single reply to this thread.

I really don't think the name-calling is necessary. Again, the Original Poster *did* ask.

[JuniperLea]

67. Interesting...

My comment wasn't pointed at anyone in particular, yet you felt compel to reply. If the shoe fits, I suppose.

Just remember: I didn't call you a name. You assumed the role of your own free will.

[tbyg52]

68. Well, you seemed to be calling *someone* on this thread a name,

and I figured it might as well be me. I don't recall seeing anyone else who was rude either.

Edited to add that, upon rereading, it seems to me you were *explicitly* calling one or more (unnamed) persons on this thread a name, adding "well if the shoe fits" when, predictably, someone replied. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

:rofl: "Just remember: I didn't call you a name. You assumed the role of your own free will." Oh my gosh, too funny! Let me see, when's the last time I heard something like this? It had to be a *lot* of years ago, as I am (they tell me) an adult now..... :rofl:

[JuniperLea]

76. Admitting to being rude is a good first step... eom

[varkam]

78. Irony is thy name. eom

[w8liftinglady]

69. I haven't given up.My patients like them..

I have had some rough couple of days.Thanks for sticking up for me :)

[tbyg52]

74. I'm sorry your were upset by some of the answers, but

you *did* ask...! - and I think people were trying to give serious, polite answers (the obvious opinion of the guy you're replying to to the contrary, of course.... ;) ). At any rate, I know I was.

[Az]

62. Although you obviously do not mean it as such

this can create quite a bit of tension in your nurse/patient relationship. Not just for nonbelievers but for various sects of Christianity as well. You don't know how you may offend someone by doing this.

[Marrah_G]

64. I think it is inappropriate, but your intentions are good.

I would feel both uncomfortable accepting them and also uncomfortable revealing my religion to a caretaker who was devout enough to offer such a gift to strangers. I am not saying you would react badly to the fact that I am Wiccan, but many would and so most people of my faith are wary of this sort of thing.

As a patient I should not be put in that position.

Please don't take this the wrong way. Your intentions are sweet and kind, but my faith has not had very good experiences with people pushing Christianity on us.

Now, if I knew the nurse was the sweet wieghtliftinglady from DU, I would happily have accepted the beads in the spirit they were intended.

I hope this makes sense.

[Realityhack]

71. In my opinion yes.

It is true that people look to a nurse for comfort, but you also represent the medical profession and are in a position of some authority.

Would you lie to the patients and give them bad medical advice if you thought it would make them feel better? of course not. Would you say the medical professional enforces Christian prayer? of course not.

This is very close to that line.

If patients ask for prayer beads be prepared to tell them the gift shop has them or have some tucked away. You should probably also think about what other (non-Christian) patents might want handy and stock that too if you are going to have the prayer beads around.

IMO this does go too far if you offer them outright. If they ask and you have them, different story.
I also do not know what hospital or facility you work for. I assume you cleared this with them? If not keep in mind that you also represent them as a company/entity and this might not be the image they want.

[beam me up scottie]

75. Why not hand out Chick Tracts and autographed pictures of Fred Phelps too?

This isn't about your patients, is it? It's about you patting yourself on the back for being so generous and charitable.

Many of us have very good reasons for keeping our beliefs, or lack of them, in the closet.

Non-believers might accept your prayer beads just because they don't want to take the chance of outing themselves.

Or, they might be afraid to offend you because you might not treat them as well as you would one of your own.

Does the thought that you are coercing your patients comfort you?

Because I have no doubt that it has the exact opposite effect on some of them.

You want to do something nice for the patient?

Just do your job and leave your prayer beads out of it.







I'm sorry if this is harsh but I live in the bible belt and have to deal with proselytizing on a daily basis. I have "friends" who regularly pray for me and mourn the loss of my soul.

My hostility is a reaction, it's not something that comes naturally to me.

I just want you to see how some of us view religious gifts.

[blueatheart]

80. I see your point

Are other symbols of other religions offered? If not then I see it as proselytizing, not just trying to be a caring nurse. Seriously, if that what it is all about then it would not be a bother to offer them other symbols. Even those who normally practice their religion may be offended and feel their deity has let them down. It is not professional.

[beam me up scottie]

81. It's a lovely way to make atheists feel even more isolated.

I have to grit my teeth and smile every time I receive a religious gift from a friend, a religious email telling me that I don't belong in this christian nation, a prayer tract in my paycheck, sit through daily prayers in the workplace, drive by the 'God Bless America' signs plastered all over the municipal buildings, etc. etc. etc.

Their intentions are all too clear, and while this nurse might think she is giving people prayer beads for all the right reasons, it's just another slap in the face for those of us who don't fit into any of the religion boxes.

If I was the patient, I would grit my teeth and say thank you, just like I always do, and she would think that I was being sincere.

I wonder how many other patients have done the same.

[ZombieHorde]

77. I have a gift for you if you are Christian, otherwise, suck it up bitch.

That is what I would think if I was offered those beads. They are nice beads though.

[KittyWampus]

82. Dear Nurse, please consider calling them "worry beads". If someone says yes to "worry beads"

have a couple of different "flavors" or "styles" handy.

Some with nothing, some with suns, some with crosses.

Sometimes, having something to fiddle with relieves stress.

It's all in the labeling/marketing and the offering of variety.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

83. Any beads without a cross attached?

Prayer beads (malas) used by Hindus and Buddhists for chanting have 108 beads instead of 54, like a rosary. They have a knot with two beads or one big bead on it, which is the starting and ending point. Mantras are supposed to be chanted in groups of 108.


Example of Sandalwood mala:


Wrist mala - has 27 beads and is like a bracelet:


Gemstone turquoise mala:



I think cryingshame has a good idea.

[w8liftinglady]

84. I make some with doves,hearts and starfish

the message is hope and healing,not deity.Sigh.