1700+ Year-Old Saint's Blood Liquifies, Blood Bank Officials Impressed

[DeSwiss]

Naples hails miracle as saint's blood liquifies

September 20, 2008, 12:40 am



NAPLES, Italy (Reuters) - Thousands of Neapolitans crowded into the city's cathedral on Friday to witness the miracle of Saint Gennaro -- whose dried blood is said to liquefy twice a year, 17 centuries after his death. Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe, archbishop of Naples, announced the blood turned to liquid at 9:45 a.m. (8:45 a.m.) and the glass phial was paraded to crowds outside, who set off fireworks in celebration."It (the saint's blood) is the seed of hope for all of us," Sepe said.

Legend has it that when Gennaro was beheaded by pagan Romans in 305 A.D., a Neapolitan woman soaked up his blood with a sponge and preserved it in a glass phial. The substance usually turns to liquid twice a year - on September 19, the saint's feast day, and on the first Saturday in May. The miracle was only first recorded in 1389, more than 1,000 years after Gennaro's martyrdom.

More scientifically minded sceptics say the "miracle" is due to chemicals present in the phial whose viscosity changes when it is stirred or moved. Some Neapolitans fear disaster may strike the city if the blood of the fourth-century martyr does not turn to liquid.

Disaster has struck at least five times after the blood failed to liquefy, including in November 1980 when some 3,000 people died in a massive earthquake that struck southern Italy. Naples has endured a difficult year, with the historic port city's image stained by a trash crisis that saw rotting rubbish pile up in city streets.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/odd/5027784/naples-hails-miracle-saints-blood-liquifies/">LINK

- Speaking of rotting rubbish.... When Cardinal Sepe was asked about the 23 band-aids discovered upon his arms, wrists and hands after the celebration was concluded, he stated that he: "cut himself shaving...."
==============================================================================
DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox



"Prayer is just a way of telling god that his divine plan for
you is flawed -- and shockingly stingy" ~ Betty Bowers

[LeftyMom]

1. Relics? Do those people realize what year this is?

And if not, do they realize that I offer pieces of the True Cross and vials of the Blessed Virgin's amniotic fluid at very competitive prices?

[DeSwiss]

2. How competitive??? ROFL!!!

[Wilber_Stool]

3. One of my favorite lines from Umberto Eco's

"Name of the Rose" has William of Baskerville saying "If a man were to collect all of the pieces of the true cross from all of the churches of Europe, he would have enough wood to make a pretty nice barn."

[elshiva]

4. I heard the "splinters of the true cross" would build

a fleet of ships. Also, the Episcopalian Bishop of Maryland's bishop crook is supposed to have a piece of the true cross. :eyes:

[DeSwiss]

9. I'm assuming those would be wooden ships....

...which would be okay in like a regatta. Or museum. However today, they could be blasted right out of the water today with a PT boat. Hell, a bass boat. Or more likely from a drone operated out of an office somewhere in Langley, VA. So much for the fleet.

Unless those splinters can make fleets too....

But that's really interesting about the crook. I wonder if they split-up, who gets that? Or, would they each just take a piece???

[DeSwiss]

8. And I loved the movie too n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. Feh!

I see you three locks of the Virgin's hair, a hat worn by St. Paul and Jesus' foreskin.

[DeSwiss]

23. The Holy Prepuce....

...{shakes head}

{still shaking head}

I don't know why I'm surprised.



- TechBear, thank you. I'm finally getting off the computer now....

[TechBear_Seattle]

29. Even less of a surprise...

That there were a dozen or more claimants to having this relic at a time. Can you imagine, being circumcised as many as 18 times? And is it any wonder that the Catholic Church made even talking about this relic an excommunicable offense?

[knitter4democracy]

5. There are other saints who do the same.

That's, in part, why they're saints. Bodies that don't decay, despite no modern embalming practices, icons that weep, relics that produce a fragrant oil that heals people. There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[DeSwiss]

7. With all due respect...

Whatever my philosophy may or may not be, is irrelevant to the fact that time defeats us all. You might want to make a note of it. Including deities, if history is any judge.

However, I am open to any new information or ideas that advances our knowledge. So when you can link me to the scientific studies and results pertaining to an autopsy in which the good saint was examined, tested and verified to have not decayed in over 1700 years, I would most certainly appreciate it. And will beg your pardon to boot.

- But until then.....

[knitter4democracy]

12. I know there's been research in Russia.

I don't know if it's in English, though.

You can go to holy sites throughout Europe and see things for yourself and decide for yourself. Since I'm Orthodox, I'm more inclined to believe the miracles, but ymmv.

[Wilber_Stool]

20. Here's some pics of the

incorruptibles in the Catholic Church.

[knitter4democracy]

21. Their Orthodox page is interesting.

It really shows the difference between the churches. I can easily imagine an Orthodox priest not really making a big deal out of it.

[DeSwiss]

22. Ummm....

...I guess you must have missed the part where I said "scientific studies" and "autopsy" above?

Someone who is herself a Roman Catholic, and was "educated (grade school, high school and college) by the School Sisters of Notre Dame, and has written several books on various topics regarding Roman Catholicism" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Carroll_Cruz">link), I would first regard at minimum as being slightly biased. No, let me rephrase that -- "totally biased." Biases, not the least of which would include her desire to sell books. And she appears to have written quite a few. Apparently no Best Sellers as yet, although one would think that with this kind of "proof" they would be flying off the shelves! :sarcasm:

However, she is no scientist, and this is hardly anywhere close to the proof I referred to above. I meant using things like microscopes, test tubes, beakers, cultures and... well you know, science stuff. Her webpage mentions that "scientists have been confounded for years" by all these perfectly preserved dead folk, but she fails to provide any proof about just who these befuddled people are. And just what is was about these purportedly "non-decaying bodies" that has stumped them. It appears to me that this "dead-saints" scam is simply a more elaborate take on the chicken blood guy's scam that I've previously mentioned.

But the pictures of the dead bodies was at least.... interesting. In a goulish sort of way. I suppose that since prehistoric times, humans have been enthralled with the dead and nothing's change much in that regard. We still get spooked easily. But the fact that "The Church" seems to have a tendency to pull these bodies out for public showings when their ratings are slipping, at least to me, is absolutely priceless!!! :D

- So thanks for the links. I'll be sure to include her in my religious frauds folder.

[elshiva]

33. This one seems pretty decayed:

The others look like they are wax castings over the bodies. It does not look like real flesh, but wax.

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. And none of these require the word "miracle"

It is unusual, but not all that rare, for bodies to dry out and mummify rather than rot. This is particularly likely when a body is buried in a crypt or cave: you will note that not one of the "uncorrupted" corpses was buried in the ground. Icons that weep have always been found to have non-miraculous causes, either because of condensation on a statue or because of outright fraud. The placebo effect is a very well documented and very real way of curing people.

Just because something is odd does not make it a miracle.

[knitter4democracy]

16. And I'm fine with the placebo effect.

:)

I'm just sayin', posting stuff like this to show how stupid we Christians supposedly are is just flame bait. It's an old faith, and stories like the one posted are nothing new. For some of us, we question some miracles, but if we experience it and can't think of a way it could be false (or don't want to because our lives are better for the miracle), that doesn't mean we are stupid. I've personally experienced a faith healing, and I've also had the placebo effect work really well on me. I don't have a problem with the power of the mind or the power of faith.

[cyborg_jim]

37. As we've discussed before - You'll believe what you want to believe

Whatever arbitrary justification you can find is good enough.

[TCJ70]

6. So...this really happens? n/t

[DeSwiss]

10. The facts are not in evidence.....

...although I've been told that whether or not one believes in such claims, could possibly have something to do with one's philosophy. A suspension of the laws of nature, and of reality in-general helps quite a bit too, I think.

One would think however, that saint blood being holy and blessed and everything, could cure diseases or something. Think of the converts that would engender. At minimum I think it should be donated to a blood drive somewhere. At least that would actually be something concrete, and in-keeping Christian beliefs of helping the sick.

When I was a kid in the 50's there was a huskter preacher who used chicken blood in his act, claiming it was the blood of Jesus. But it was a storefront church in East Cleveland, so they just arrested him for running a con game. But this Cardinal is in the big leagues.

- Yet, with so many preachers -- quite a few of them doing this "miracle stuff," over time their bound to overlap each other's acts at some point....

[trotsky]

11. ...

One would think however, that saint blood being holy and blessed and everything, could cure diseases or something. Think of the converts that would engender.

One would think, yep. But apparently these holy, sacred body parts are only good for parlor tricks. Well that and fleecing the flock, of course.

[DeSwiss]

26. Its all about the PR....

...becasue they're REALLY dead without it.

[knitter4democracy]

13. Do you not know that line from Hamlet?

It's a classic. Anyways . . .

There's a two thousand year history of miracles from saints' relics--healings are just one of many miracles that have happened. Having personally experienced a healing, I can attest that these things still happen. I know that the Catholic church tends to study things more in depth and work to prove whether a miracle really happened or not (we Orthodox tend to take it more on faith) and that they have priests who do the background checks and studies and all.

[DeSwiss]

25. I'm familiar with the line....

...although I haven't read Hamlet since the 11th grade (1968). I haven't found the need to refer to it again, which considering its content is a pretty good sign in my book.

But I find it somehow fitting that you'd refer to one of Shakespeare's darkest tragedies which contains stories of insanity, overwhelming grief, seething rage, treachery, revenge, incest, and moral corruption. Because when one holds those attributes along side the visage of "The Church" we can readily see that they have much in common in this regard.

However, its relevancy with respect to this particular question of the "not-quite-so-dead" and "dried-blood liquefying," it would seem to me to be questionable at best. Particularly since damn-near everyone in Hamlet gets it in the end, but good. Yet it serves to remind one of all the other instances of the theft of storylines and ideas, and the outright plagiarism by The Church, with respect of more ancient tales. And also not forgetting to mention of course, the co-opting of secular literature in order to try to use it to bolster the bunk religion that passes off as "The Truth."

But I do agree that there are "more things on heaven and earth." More than we know and can understand -- now. And what understanding of them that we do have has come to us in spite of religion, not because of it.

As for the question of my philosophy, that is a work in-progress. It is shaped largely by facts, but is repelled by religion, which is the antithesis of facts. So it isn't encapsulated, nor can it be. No one knows what my philosophy is, but me. Others may only know of the things that it is certainly not.

[knitter4democracy]

30. *sigh* I love Hamlet.

I used to teach high school English, before the kids came along, and I loved teaching Hamlet. It works with their teen angst and parent issues, and there's a lot of beauty in the lines. I haven't re-read it in awhile and probably should pull that out. Considering I'm practically living Merchant of Venice, I should re-read that, too (was Portia in college, married my Bassanio, lost a pound of flesh two years ago to a tumor, etc.).

I'm sorry if you thought I was presumptuous. I quoted the line tongue in cheek, not to be mean, snippy, or judgemental. It's so hard to really convey mood and inflections on a message board.

As for how you feel about the Church, I agree. I'm Orthodox, and I'm fully aware that we don't have the best history. Considering I grew up in a science-oriented home, I'm not about to chuck science out the window, but I'm one of those who really believes that beauty is truth and that we shouldn't throw out beauty in our quest for the truth. That's in part why I'm a Christian, not that it always makes sense to anyone else. My philosophy is mine own and doesn't always make sense even to my husband, who has had a similar faith path as mine.

[DeSwiss]

31. Which might explain why....

...I was never that "taken" with Hamlet -- because I didn't have the teen angst and parent issues that most have experienced. At 14 I was working and I haven't stopped since. At 17 I was making more per week than my father who was a Fundie preacher. So if anyone suffered from angst, it was more likely my father. ;-)

And I didn't think that your use of the "heaven and earth" line was presumptuous, but rather that it was more reflective of the opposite of what you intended. Those words were uttered as I recall, to an astounded Horatio who couldn't (or simply didn't want to) grasp the reality of the situation. The King in his ghostly apparitional state, informs is son that his own brother was his murderer, the seducer of his wife and a usurper to the throne of Denmark. All things that are commonplace in Hamlet's world, which is what he is referring to here. And in our own.

So the idea that "there are more thing in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in Horatio's philosophy," is a reference directed toward someone who could not, or refused to accept the machinations of the real world. The deceit, the envy, and the hatred. It is a reference to someone whom Hamlet sees ignoring the facts and realities of life, choosing rather to live in a perfect bliss of their own construction. Which to me, describes the view of religionists, perfectly.

It is the Church's history that is the most telling of all I think. I can think of no endeavor, no initiative, in fact no human activity which came about as a result of political necessity, and which was founded and practiced utter depravity, ruthlessness, and deception -- and which then somehow resulted in anyone's betterment. This was the ground upon which The Church was cultivated. I think that today, most believers fail to make that connection. And if and when they do, it is usually excused away, as having been "of another time." But if this is so, then what does that say of its relevancy to us today? It is an exercise in the worst of Cognitive Dissonance. Even this past year Pope Ratzie went to South America proclaiming that the "natives had been silently longing" to be saved and converted (or killed by the Conquistadors), but who in reality were the victims of "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requerimiento">The Requirement" (the Papal Bull of 1493 by Pope Alexander VI) An excerpt from that BULL:

But, if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses; we shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him; and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their Highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us. And that we have said this to you and made this Requisition, we request the notary here present to give us his testimony in writing, and we ask the rest who are present that they should be witnesses of this Requisition."

And thus, The Church sanctioned once again, the wholesale subjugation, enslavement and/or slaughter of an entire continent of people. Were it not for secular laws curbing their excesses, I have no doubt that they'd still be doing this today. So the Church was and always will be a state religion, separation be damned. And by starting out with such a beginning as they had, it set about destroying all its competition of alternate religious perspectives. No doubt, had the Roman Empire been able to withstand the gathering hoards, it might possibly still be the only state religion. As it is, The Church's foundation was built upon the blood of the initial believers who were not only too Pagan, but had the audacity to refuse to tow the new company-line. That blood is still on their hands and will never go away. So The Church has ZERO CREDIBILITY as far as I can see. They excommunicated and literally destroyed the lives of any and all deniers, and in the process totally circumvented and undermined the pious pronouncements of their leader -- the promoter of love and kindness towards one's neighbors.

The Church was then, as it is now, a political mechanism which serves both the user and the ussee(s) own purposes and has little to almost nothing to do with benefitting its followers. But then all institutions which have been devised by humans eventually end up serving itself rather than their creators. Our current government is a perfect example of this. And it is not a coincidence that The Church is still lurking in the background -- even now....

[knitter4democracy]

32. Actually, that line was in direct reference to the ghost.

Horatio is reacting to the ghost while the ghost is telling Hamlet to make his friends swear to not revealing what they've seen, and that's when Hamlet says the line to convince his friend to do the ghost's bidding. At this point, the ghost has told Hamlet everything, but his friends don't know it yet. Hamlet could be referring to what the ghost has revealed to him, but with the lines right before and after, he seems to be more referring to the ghost itself and his friends' inability to deal with what they're seeing.
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/full.html (Act I, scene v.)

You seem to see the church as one entity. It used to be that way, but that ended in 1054. Especially since the Reformation, the church has splintered into thousands of groups, most of which don't get along. You write of the church as lurking in the background, but most churches aren't and aren't set up that way. Sure, the Orthodox church is the state church in the mother countries in Eastern Europe, but in most of those countries, it has little to no real power and is mostly kept as a cultural artifact. Here, we're nowhere near the power you seem to give us. Heck, we can't even get the government to pressure Turkey to stop their zealots from bombing our Ecumenical Patriarch's compound on a weekly basis, killing our priests in an effort to drive all Orthodox Christians from Turkey.

As for the church being a political mechanism only, then how do you explain icons and the art created for and by the churches? What about monasticism? Food banks and soup kitchens? Schools? I'm just curious.

[Dorian Gray]

34. Total aside, knitter

but I'm curious as to which Orthodox church you attend? (Greek, Russian, Latvian, etc?) And do they all share the same hierarchy? I believe each one has it's own patriarch, but do they all share the same theology?

(I'm also fascinated by the Eastern Catholic rites, which seem to share some of the Orthodox pomp while being in communion with Roman Catholicism.)

The Orthodox Mass is beautiful. I attended one while in Greece a couple of years ago, and I was blown away (even though I couldn't understand everything... in Greek!)

Sorry for the aside... but your talking of the Orthodox Church so passionately in this thread just made me open my mouth out of curiousity! :)

[knitter4democracy]

35. The Eastern Orthodox Church is one church with many divisions.

Each part of the church has its own patriarch, but the patriarchs aren't like the pope--they're not infallible, they can't make any major pronouncements on theology, and they can't really change much. They're most administrative and work on the national/international political level. For example, our ecumenical patriarch (the one over the Greek church here in the states and a few churches left in Turkey who's kind of the head of the whole church but not really) is huge on environmental issues and is more in the public eye in Europe fighting to green up the EU.

We converted into the Greek church (where they use New Testament Greek for liturgy and do it right ;) ), but we're in a Russian church now that's under His Eminience, Patriarch Alexii of Moscow. There are only minor differences between the Slavic liturgy style and the Greek style. The tones are different (the Church uses a tonal system for music that's not like the usual scale we use here, and there are 8 tones/keys we rotate around, depending on the time of year and feast day), the language is different (Slavic churches use Old Church Slavonic, Greek churches use New Testament Greek, but more and more of us are almost all English), and we switch a couple of things around, but that's it. The liturgy's the same anywhere you go, as are the Bible readings, the icons, the incense, the vestments the priest wears), etc.

Our liturgy is long (usually at least a couple of hours), and we stand through almost all of it, but what I love is our church's emphasis on beauty. We build our churches to mirror Heaven, and our liturgy, we feel, is the one used in Heaven to praise God as well.

A great place to start in understanding our theology is Bishop Kallistos Ware's book, The Orthodox Way. Another place is conciliarpress.com--they have books, pamphlets, and more and are run by converts to Orthodoxy.

I started on my conversion path during a semester of study in Russia. I'd never felt the presence of God so clearly in church before--overwhelming, actually. When I started studying the theology, I found that it meshed with my beliefs a lot better than the church I was in at the time, and eventually, my husband and I converted together. We don't have a perfect history, mind you (pogroms were often church-sanctioned, and God knows we tortured many who disagreed with us early on and in Russia up until the Revolution), but we are different in many ways today. In Serbia, during the war, our Patriarch stood on the side of NATO and worked hard to hide Albanians and Kosovars in churches and keep people safe. Many of us work for the peace we pray for during every liturgy.

[Dorian Gray]

36. Thank you for

sharing all that with me. It's very informative. :)

[Occam Bandage]

18. Okay, I've gotta say something now.

Your smilies are sorta distracting. Why not use the DU ones everyone else does?

(Also, SmileyCentral is malware; your computer will run better if you uninstall it.)

[DeSwiss]

24. Smileys are distracting?

In what way?

Don't have Smiley Central on my computer. It's garbage, I agree. I just use their smileys when it suits me.

- Have a nice day!!!

[Occam Bandage]

17. If anyone's interested, here's an article in which several scientists recreate the effect.

http://www.cicap.org/new/articolo.php?id=101014

It's a neat trick. I'm curious as to the frequency the 'blood' has failed to liquify. What would cause such a failure? Did it only happen those five disastrous times?

[knitter4democracy]

19. Now, that's cool.

Thanks!

[DeSwiss]

27. Saint Januarius' blood???

In a sealed vial. "Blood" which just so happens to also demonstrate the same thixotropic properties of "certain gels" which turn liquid when stirred or shaken.

Like Iron Hydroxide gel:



- Right. Well, it looks like blood to me from here.... :sarcasm:

[Nihil]

28. Excellent article - thanks for posting. (n/t)

:thumbsup: